Well, they're sciencey people. It's very likely that they were mediators in the larger scale of things, making the slightest adjustments in how things played out each time a new Booker was brought in. Again, it's a form of butterfly effect. The tiniest details can make the biggest of differences.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Well, they're sciencey people. It's very likely that they were mediators in the larger scale of things, making the slightest adjustments in how things played out each time a new Booker was brought in. Again, it's a form of butterfly effect. The tiniest details can make the biggest of differences.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Consider this. It's implied that the Songbird idea is stolen, through tears, from the Big Daddy idea of Suchong/Tenenbaum. It's a merger of man and machine, irreversible. Someone is in that fucking birdsuit. Someone who, for SOME reason, is insanely protective of Elizabeth. And we know there are infinite Bookers out there.
The DLC possibilities for this game are... infinite. And I definitely want more Songbird. Also 100% sure that Vox hero Booker will be DLC.
The DLC possibilities for this game are... infinite. And I definitely want more Songbird. Also 100% sure that Vox hero Booker will be DLC.
Anyone else realize just how easily it would have been to take this game into an Oldboy direction? For those who haven't seen Oldboy:
Of course, they obviously didn't go in this direction, but I'm sure there's some unknowingly weird fan art floating around out there right now.
The main character unknowingly ends up falling in love with and having sex with his own daughter.
what was the spoiler that leaked? i am so glad i didn't hear about any of it.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I would have appreciated something close to this, not for my own weird satisfaction, but just because it would have stopped me from ever considering that they are related.
The question is whether or not going to that length is worth it. Another question is if that question matters, seeing as though we get a chance to throw a fucking base ball at an interracial couple surrounded by anthro monkeys.
I think anything could have gone.
whoa, pretty major.
the Booker/Comstock thing sorta was in my mind. but i really didn't expect Elizabeth to be his daughter. The Bioshock cameo was so friggin' cool.
Haha, I was thinking "Oldboy" when they revealed she was his daughter, glad it didn't go that way, lol
Wonder if someone unwittingly wrote prerelease Booker/Elizabeth fanfiction and is regretting it.
Fair enough, the woman just seemed surprised when the brother was right from what they showed in the ending.
Some sick dude out there did that exact thing and now loves it even more because of it.
That's actually a pretty good point. Songbird as an early Booker who got captured and repurposed.
indigo-cyclops
Member
God I hope so. Now I'm wondering if the broaches represent 'CAGE = Comstock' / 'BIRD = Booker'. This falls in line with the earlier theory of Songbird/Cage as the same device. God help me!
I actually really like how they comment on the similarity between Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite (in terms of plot, mechanics, etc.) with the ending sequence. I don't interpret the events of Bioshock 1 as a literal reconfiguration of what we see going on in Bioshock Infinite (a change in variables), but, like, hey, even if we change some of the variables, the formula is still the same.
Kind of a neat, "That's the joke," to people whining about how similar the games are.
Kind of a neat, "That's the joke," to people whining about how similar the games are.
Dinosaur Tamer
Member
Maybe I am wrong and the twins actually killed him, but I got the impression he isn't real. Just like other parts of the whole lighthouse scene (as shown during the ending sequence), he is there, because Booker needs him to be there to "fill in the gaps".
He holds on to a message that just doesn't seem to fit reality as well as it does fit Booker's initial version of events. In content as well as presentation it's a pretty blatant threat to Booker himself and helps to explain the urgency and desperation of his fake mission, which is used as some kind of cover for his own mind.
More for the people who whined that there was no reason for this to have the bioshock name on it
That only works if we're not working on alternate realities. Timelines, sure. But alternate universes kind of debunks the theories because there are potentially infinite Bookers and Comstocks, meaning that it's pretty unlikely that any two universes contain a songbird, because that thing was what kept watch over Elizabeth. Without the Songbird, there is essentially nothing stopping most Bookers from just grabbing Elizabeth and running. There would need to be a lot of failed Bookers in a single universe for one to become a songbird in so many different realities.
indigo-cyclops
Member
So remember the first Songbird encounter, and we see him crash to the water's floor, and his eye cracks? That was the dominant eye we saw up until that point. Later encounters we are shown the other eye. Am I imagining this, or did such a thing happen? Also we know the Songbird needs to be summoned; that's what the Comstock statue was doing when we meet Elizabeth.
Who's to say that the Songbird isn't a Jumper? Though that would mean one Comstock is controlling everything, which isn't likely.
Also, anyone interested in commenting on this idea?
You're a grand old rag, you're a high flying flag!
Who's to say that the Songbird isn't a Jumper? Though that would mean one Comstock is controlling everything, which isn't likely.
Also, anyone interested in commenting on this idea?
You're a grand old rag, you're a high flying flag!
famousmortimer
Banned
Just finished it and was floored, chills running down my spine.
Voice of Reason
Banned
It would be pretty awesome if someone finds a Songbird corpse easter egg lying on the seafloor in Bioshock 1.
The One and Done
Member
Just beat it. Hated it. Maybe hate is a strong word. But I definitely didn't enjoy it (the story that is) I didn't know what the hell was going on half the time and why I was doing what I was doing. The ending was confusing as fuck to me and I desperately need someone to explain to me what the hell was going on and what the ending means.
Overall, it's a decent game but I feel like the storytelling combined with some of the gameplay made the narrative really terrible. Things just don't seem to make sense throughout IMO.
Overall, it's a decent game but I feel like the storytelling combined with some of the gameplay made the narrative really terrible. Things just don't seem to make sense throughout IMO.
I hope they patch that shit in.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
They're evolving the plan as they go.
Personally, I think they're working off of how far other Bookers have gotten to give Player Booker the 'best' chance he has to finally get Liz powered up, stop Comstock, and revert the timelines.
They're just performing little experiments along the way, both assessing Booker's mental state by offering him 'choices' as well as trying to determine the best way of helping direct he and Liz towards their desired objective. It doesn't mean they've seen the whole movie play out, but they are basically Peggy Sue'ing around with what they do know.
They seem to be working with what 'limited' power they have against the relatively fixed nature of the conflicts involved in the universes (Comstock vs Fitzroy, etc.) after the baptism decision.
Fair point, thank you
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
What questions do you have?
This is pretty much what I thought, based on the idea of the opening scene where they comment on how he doesn't row, as if he didn't row any of the times before this one.
I actually thought giving you just enough info to make it all come together was one of the biggest achievements of the game. I was surprised by how well it all wrapped up in the end.
The One and Done
Member
Was it all a dream? Did the end actually occur? Lake scene etc? What was that Lake scene referencing? Who is Elizabeth? Who is Booker? Chronologically, what happened as far as the plotline of the game? I really don't understand why Booker does what the things he does throughout and how he knows certain things without the player knowing.
so friggin' cool the iconic lighthouse from Bioshock 1 made an appearance and is important in some way.
made perfect sense to me, tbh. i guess you should wait for all those spoilercasts that will come out soon from various game sites.
Long video but this should help with at least the ending. He goes into some complicated science but it isnt too bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKKAkrnT_o8
just finished it
not even sure if I liked the ending
my mind was blown but in a scope/WTF kinda way. It was pretty easy to understand but the implications of the franchise as a whole are pretty damn big. I'll have to think about it a bit. Will read what this thread has been about these days.
not even sure if I liked the ending
my mind was blown but in a scope/WTF kinda way. It was pretty easy to understand but the implications of the franchise as a whole are pretty damn big. I'll have to think about it a bit. Will read what this thread has been about these days.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I don't think we even have an exact summary of the events yet.
Might save yourself some time by asking questions now, or viewing that video above.
Might save yourself some time by asking questions now, or viewing that video above.
gonna check it out and see what he thinks.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Millions and millions upon billions of lighthouses.
"There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city..." Seems very open-ended in terms of the franchise.
I dont really have any questions, I think it was pretty clear
my "issue" with it is that everything goes down way, way too fast. The last 20 minutes of the game are fucking insane. Suddenly you are back in Rapture and before you can let that sink in they suddenly throw everything you thought about the franchise out the window and go way back to explain fucking.. everything
I mean I liked it, but it could have been paced a bit better
SteveWinwood
Member
I thought it was great. I have zero questions. The specifics aren't the point and you shouldn't bother even bogging down with them.
You guys need to read more sci fi. It's fun.
You guys need to read more sci fi. It's fun.
INFINITE lighthouses
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
For some odd reason, I feel like the reveals and overall explanation will feel better paced once everyone finishes a second or third play through.
Someone in here called a lot of the dialogue in game "white noise", until you get to the end, which is completely correct. I would imagine knowing what we know now, all of the weird bits of hinting dialogue will make it seem like the answers were there all along.
Someone in here called a lot of the dialogue in game "white noise", until you get to the end, which is completely correct. I would imagine knowing what we know now, all of the weird bits of hinting dialogue will make it seem like the answers were there all along.
pretty much
indigo-cyclops
Member
yea, i just liked how the title of the game made perfect sense after the ending reveal.
Decided to start on my second play-through tonight after finishing it a few hours ago. Keeping an eye out for dates on anything because the chronology seems to be what's throwing people the most. Here are the dates I've seen so far:
April 19, 1874 - Booker DeWitt is born. (See detective license on his desk in flashbacks)
?, 1880 - J.F. Lacera and Sons on 4242 E. Sparrow Street in Columbia begin delivering ice. (See back of red ice delivery trucks)
?, 1889 - R. Lutece writes/releases "Barriers to Trans-Dimensional Travel". (See opening quote)
December 29, 1890 - The Battle of Wounded Knee. (Wikipedia)
January 22, 1892 - Booker DeWitt is issued certified as a special detective at the Arkbarn (?), Massachusetts office of the Pinkerton's National Detective Agency. (See detective license)
October 8, 1893 - Post-credits scene with Booker going to check on Anna. (See calendar on desk.)
1899-1901 - Boxer Rebellion (Wikipedia)
1904 - Payton Lane Easter Sons begins is either founded or begins production of Easter Automated Stallions. (See signs at the fair.)
July 6, 1912 - Booker DeWitt arrives in Columbia; Columbia celebrates the day it seceded with the annual fair and raffle. (Everywhere.)
November 5, 1946 - Rapture is completed. (See display in Rapture lobby.)
Sometime after November 5, 1946 and possibly after 1959 - Booker and Elizabeth travel to Rapture. (the "Bathysphere travel is forbidden" and Ryan protest signs indicate this might be after the revolt?)
That's all I've got so far. A couple of observations from listing these out:
- Columbia would have had to have existed as a regular town that later got elevated, otherwise the 1880 date for the ice delivery makes no sense. DeWitt wouldn't have been reborn into Comstock at the age of 6.
- R. Lutece was working on trans-dimensional travel prior to meeting Comstock, far enough to have written a book about it.
- DeWitt would've been 16 during the Battle of Wounded Knee, which explains a lot.
- The Boxer Rebellion really doesn't fit into the chronology well, will need to get back to the Hall of Heroes to see what the deal was.
- Anna/Elizabeth would've been born somewhere between 1891 and 1893.
Still need to lock down a lot more dates but hopefully this is a start.
A fewother things I caught as I ran through the beginning again:
- If you stand around after the coin flip, the female Lutece remarks: "We won't leave until you do. You have my word on that.", which seems like it works both in the immediate sense and in the long term given their goals of setting things right.
- The background sign behind the barbershop quartet singing the Beach Boys features bees, which Albert Fink (who "presents" the group) seemed quite fond of.
- Some people reflected up-thread the body in the tower might be an alternate DeWitt, but the guy is wearing overalls, so unless there's an alternate timeline where he became a farmer, I'm going to guess not.
- I still don't know what to make of the map of the US that's in the (first) lighthouse, with pushpins in a bunch of cities and the note "Be Prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him. -C"
April 19, 1874 - Booker DeWitt is born. (See detective license on his desk in flashbacks)
?, 1880 - J.F. Lacera and Sons on 4242 E. Sparrow Street in Columbia begin delivering ice. (See back of red ice delivery trucks)
?, 1889 - R. Lutece writes/releases "Barriers to Trans-Dimensional Travel". (See opening quote)
December 29, 1890 - The Battle of Wounded Knee. (Wikipedia)
January 22, 1892 - Booker DeWitt is issued certified as a special detective at the Arkbarn (?), Massachusetts office of the Pinkerton's National Detective Agency. (See detective license)
October 8, 1893 - Post-credits scene with Booker going to check on Anna. (See calendar on desk.)
1899-1901 - Boxer Rebellion (Wikipedia)
1904 - Payton Lane Easter Sons begins is either founded or begins production of Easter Automated Stallions. (See signs at the fair.)
July 6, 1912 - Booker DeWitt arrives in Columbia; Columbia celebrates the day it seceded with the annual fair and raffle. (Everywhere.)
November 5, 1946 - Rapture is completed. (See display in Rapture lobby.)
Sometime after November 5, 1946 and possibly after 1959 - Booker and Elizabeth travel to Rapture. (the "Bathysphere travel is forbidden" and Ryan protest signs indicate this might be after the revolt?)
That's all I've got so far. A couple of observations from listing these out:
- Columbia would have had to have existed as a regular town that later got elevated, otherwise the 1880 date for the ice delivery makes no sense. DeWitt wouldn't have been reborn into Comstock at the age of 6.
- R. Lutece was working on trans-dimensional travel prior to meeting Comstock, far enough to have written a book about it.
- DeWitt would've been 16 during the Battle of Wounded Knee, which explains a lot.
- The Boxer Rebellion really doesn't fit into the chronology well, will need to get back to the Hall of Heroes to see what the deal was.
- Anna/Elizabeth would've been born somewhere between 1891 and 1893.
Still need to lock down a lot more dates but hopefully this is a start.
A fewother things I caught as I ran through the beginning again:
- If you stand around after the coin flip, the female Lutece remarks: "We won't leave until you do. You have my word on that.", which seems like it works both in the immediate sense and in the long term given their goals of setting things right.
- The background sign behind the barbershop quartet singing the Beach Boys features bees, which Albert Fink (who "presents" the group) seemed quite fond of.
- Some people reflected up-thread the body in the tower might be an alternate DeWitt, but the guy is wearing overalls, so unless there's an alternate timeline where he became a farmer, I'm going to guess not.
- I still don't know what to make of the map of the US that's in the (first) lighthouse, with pushpins in a bunch of cities and the note "Be Prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him. -C"
Playing through again in context of the ending makes everything alot clearer. I didn't really understand the point of Slate at all until now.
the Bioshock Wikia Infinite characters section gives some pretty clear explanations which I think you guys might enjoy.
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/BioShock_Infinite_Characters
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/BioShock_Infinite_Characters
it's not an odd reason, it's a direct result of the game being designed that way (as in, to appreciate different things on a second playthrough) and the fact that the pace of the ending goes a bit fast. By the second time around you're prepared.
I'll do 1999 scavenger mode cheevo run once they iron out the PC ver a bit
No questions about the songbird?
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