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[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I'm not saying it did. I'm saying there should be more voxophones or something showing what happened to Comstock in those 20 years. I guess given the time period, it's far from implausible that he would become Comstock, I just want more to it.

The Lutece thing though. So he/ she hangs out with his/ her own alternate reality gender-reverse self and he/ she built Columbia using technology he/ she would later discover by entering a tear but had actually already discovered it and would discover it because quantum physics?

 

[ekim]

it makes sense, the tear travel just fucks him up, he replaces his memories with other ones

this starts to happen too in the game when you travel through a tear with Elizabeth, where he starts to get confused, but Elizabeth's there so she just keeps him in line

So he tear-travelled at the very beginning of the game? I'm ok with that explanation.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Do people dislike that part? From a story standpoint or gameplay?

both

 

[ii Stryker]

So with the acknowledgement of Rapture were they alluding that Elizabeth was a little/big sister?

 

[Salsa]

So he tear-travelled at the very beginning of the game? I'm ok with that explanation.

yeah!, it's shown at the end of the game, Elizabeth stands there with the tear open and you basically travel back to the beggining dude

So were they alluding that Elizabeth was a little sister?

not at all

she's just an equivalent in this particular Bioshock story universe because she's the asset that needs protecting.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I think the Rapture cameo was just "because they could." Elizabeth was a normal baby up until she was brought through a tear.

 

[famousmortimer]

Baptism didn't magically turn Comstock racist. The idea is that there is a point in time where Booker/Comstock made a choice/rejected a choice that turned him into a very different person. Does he choose to distance himself from his horrifying past, or wallow in the shame of it?

Baptism is just a symbol of "rebirth." It's not God-magic that turns him racist.

It's never explained outright, but the racism and slavery are born out of the need for workers. It draws parallels to how this country and many other countries were created - on the backs of others. And you can't do that if you think of them as equals. So Comstock as a leader trying to build things used racism to create slave labor.


Whether he was actually racist or not is immaterial. Using slave labor and an underclass was a means to an end.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

So with the acknowledgement of Rapture were they alluding that Elizabeth was a little/big sister?

No. What? No.

 

[ekim]

yeah!, it's shown at the end of the game, Elizabeth stands there with the tear open and you basically travel back to the beggining dude

But in that moment Elizabeth joins you and you know all that stuff. It doesn't imply that you tear travelled before.

 

[Nando13]

I'm not saying it did. I'm saying there should be more voxophones or something showing what happened to Comstock in those 20 years. I guess given the time period, it's far from implausible that he would become Comstock, I just want more to it.

The Lutece thing though. So he/ she hangs out with his/ her own alternate reality gender-reverse self and he/ she built Columbia using technology he/ she would later discover by entering a tear but had actually already discovered it and would discover it because quantum physics?

DLCs my friend, DLCs...

 

[Salsa]

But in that moment Elizabeth joins you and you know all that stuff. It doesn't imply that you tear travelled before.

sure it does. You are going back to the beggining of your journey. The implication is that a tear opened in Booker's apartment with the Lutece standing there offering him to get back his daughter, so he made the jump. Elizabeth's there because you are still advancing through the story, she makes that tear to prove her point and show you the whole thing. Plus they are travelling through the lighthouses to find the point where Comstock is born (Booker's baptism), so they can kill him before that

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

Would anyone be interested in a DLC side-story where you play as the Luteces?

 

[ii Stryker]

she's just an equivalent in this particular Bioshock story universe because she's the asset that needs protecting.

When referencing Rapture, Who/What is Elizabeth equivalent to? the little sisters as a whole?

 

[famousmortimer]

Would anyone be interested in a DLC side-story where you play as the Luteces?

I would sit down and watch a 4 hour in game animated movie about the Luteces.

 

[Meia]

But in that moment Elizabeth joins you and you know all that stuff. It doesn't imply that you tear travelled before.

Yeah it does. You get torn to the dock, to a sequence that takes place just before you hop in Booker's shoes for the very first time. He comes onto the deck, and the twins drag him back to the boat, and he's in a haze. He mutters to himself, as his brain comes up with an explanation of what's going on to "course correct" himself before he turns zombie like the others in the game. The mantra he followed of "Give us the girl, erase the debts" takes on a new meaning for him now, in one where he has to go rescue Elizabeth, instead of what he actually did in giving up Anna. At this point, he forgets all about Anna, and is why he's very dismissive of Elizabeth early on when he asks about her. Literally the twins drag him back to the boat, then start going out to sea, then start rowing back. It's in this very instant the game starts.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

I would sit down and watch a 4 hour in game animated movie about the Luteces.

Yeah that seems more appropriate.

 

[Salsa]

When referencing Rapture, Who/What is Elizabeth equivalent to? the little sisters as a whole?

yeah

I mean it's not worth much investigating in that aspect because the only thing the similarities are supposed to mean is that the "Bioshock story" always hits the same kind of bits no matter the universe.

In Bioshock the little sisters need protecting from the splicers so Ryan creates the Big Daddies.

In Bioshock Infinite Elizabeth needs to stay in her tower so Comstock creates the SongBird.

both of these creatures allegedly have humans inside it who are genetically altered and create a bond with what they are protecting.

It starts and ends there, basically. There's just a bunch of Big Daddies/Little sisters in Bioshock and just one of each here.

 

[Horse Detective]

Would anyone be interested in a DLC side-story where you play as the Luteces?

Yes.

The thing is, I don't know how that could possibly be worked into gameplay.

 

[ekim]

sure it does. You are going back to the beggining of your journey. The implication is that a tear opened in Booker's apartment with the Lutece standing there offering him to get back his daughter, so he made the jump. Elizabeth's there because you are still advancing through the story, she makes that tear to that part to prove her point and show you the whole thing. Plus they are travelling through the lighthouses to find the point where Comstock is born (Booker's baptism), so they can kill him before that

I thought that you originally play a Booker that never had a child and just someone (the TTT - what is their motivation?) got to you and asked you to get that girl from Columbia. As you tear-travel, you get the memories from your alter-egos.

 

[Meia]

You also have how very much like Big Daddies the Handymen are(probably where they got the idea). Not to mention Elizabeth herself by design is very much like a little sister, with Booker as her Big Daddy throughout the game.

 

[ChimpBottle]

How come Albert Fink has this ability to draw music from the future. I noticed a tear in his apartment playing Girls Just Wanna Have Fun but I didn't know just anyone could see the tears

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I think the Vox Populi thing is a little silly. There's a whole lot of racist themes in the first part of the game but we don't see a whole lot of them, then suddenly there's literally an entire well-equipped army of angry Irishmen and black people.

And the middle part of the game where things become really convoluted, as people have said. Are you not technically "two Columbias away" from where you started? But aside from that the Vox are now a huge army with guns rather than a "secret" organization, everything else seems the same. Booker as a martyr or someone who should be dead in this world isn't brought up again, even though I don't remember ever jumping to a different world once you entered Martyr Booker World. The whole middle part of the game seems underdeveloped.

 

[Toki767]

You also have how very much like Big Daddies the Handymen are(probably where they got the idea). Not to mention Elizabeth herself by design is very much like a little sister, with Booker as her Big Daddy throughout the game.

Handymen + Songbird = Big Daddy was my thought when I first saw them.

 

[Sorian]

how time advanced 6 months in pursuing elizibeth.

how in one universe elizibeth aged to 70 and lit up new york (where was booker in that one?).

Just wanted to put more emphasis on these two. For the first one, old Elizabeth pulls us to her time in 1983 to show us New York, when she throws us back to "our time" she actually misses by six months. That's the time discrepency.

For the second, that isn't one universe, that is actually what happens every time Booker fails. Basically, while going to get Elizabeth, Booker has an encounter with the songbird and tries to fight and is killed. This ending succeeded because of Old Liz's intervention which showed Elizabeth that the key was to control the song bird and not to fight it and to pull Booker away from that time period before he ran into the songbird. I can only assume she tossed him back 6 months later to give him the best chance of avoiding the bird before he could reunite with Elizabeth.

 

[Gueras]

I will ask again since noone asnwered...

What is the connection with Rapture in the end?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Wow, perfect. Thank you. Now I understand the significance of the coin flip.

Can you even choose against what they predicted? Or will the game just say that your choice is what was expected? I only played through it once, thus far.

I will ask again since noone asnwered...

What is the connection with Rapture in the end?

I read on youtube that "Booker is related to Ryan. Only people from the ryan bloodline can use the bathyspheres after the collapse, AKA why Jack can in Bioshock 1. Elizabeth couldn't use the bathysphere, saying Booker had to pull the lever."

 

[Meia]

I thought that you originally play a Booker that never had a child and just someone (the TTT - what is their motivation?) got to you and asked you to get that girl from Columbia. As you tear-travel, you get the memories from your alter-egos.

No, there's only two Bookers: The one that had the child and gave her up, and the one who got Baptized and became Comstock.


As a matter of fact, the death sequence that happens where you reappear in your apartment and step through the door and are back at the door you just stepped through back in Columbia, you can use the coin flip thing from the beginning to get the idea that that's a different Booker than the one that actually just died. The idea of the coin flip in the beginning signifies that Booker will always have the same things happen to him/always make the same choices, so him stepping through the door is him literally having replayed the entire game up to that point and now he's back doing new things. At least, that's the impression I got.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I will ask again since noone asnwered...

What is the connection with Rapture in the end?

There isn't any. Just a clever cameo because it's entirely possible within Infinite's universe.

 

[Salsa]

I thought that you originally play a Booker that never had a child and just someone (the TTT - what is their motivation?) got to you and asked you to get that girl from Columbia. As you tear-travel, you get the memories from your alter-egos.

nope! but interesting that you got that







I dont think the Handymen are supposed to represent any specific plot similarity to Bioshock beyond being similar in style and design. Sure they could have gotten the designs from the Rapture tear as well but thats kinda it.

I mean there's no Bioshock equivalent for the robot washingtons either.

The Songbird is clearly meant to be the Big Daddy, both in design and in function.

 

[ii Stryker]

yeah

I mean it's not worth much investigating in that aspect because the only thing the similarities are supposed to mean is that the "Bioshock story" always hits the same kind of bits no matter the universe.

In Bioshock the little sisters need protecting from the splicers so Ryan creates the Big Daddies.

In Bioshock Infinite Elizabeth needs to stay in her tower so Comstock creates the SongBird.

both of these creatures allegedly have humans inside it who are genetically altered and create a bond with what they are protecting.

It starts and ends there, basically. There's just a bunch of Big Daddies/Little sisters in Bioshock and just one of each here.

Yeah that's too bad because Levine is alluding to it meaning more within the context of the story but its not really explained what similarity Elizabeth holds to the Rapture narrative.

I get the other comparisons but Elizabeth is a loose end really.

 

[Salsa]

I will ask again since noone asnwered...

What is the connection with Rapture in the end?

Rapture is the equivalent to Columbia, in another universe

the actual "connection" is just that they used it as a location when travelling through tears

Yeah that's too bad because Levine is alluding to it meaning more within the context of the story but its not really explained what similarity Elizabeth holds to the Rapture narrative.

I get the other comparisons but Elizabeth is a loose end really.

it's not really a loose end. It's meant to be like that. There isn't meant to be any other kind of connection with the little sisters because that's not how the universes work, at least in the way it's implied.

It's just similarities. Different universes always have the Bioshock story and it always has similarities

"there's always a man, there's always a city". That's just it. There's nothing more that he's trying to allude to. It doesnt mean anything more.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Are there any voxophones to describe where the Handymen came from? They also seem to be capable of thinking to some extent, seeing as some work for the Vox. It's confusing.

Again, the world feels underdeveloped. Columbia has a really great atmosphere for the first 2 hours and then just CIVIL WAR SHOOTBANG CLAW KILL MUSICAL STING THUNDER LIGHTNING TEARS TEARS TEARS TEARS. Not that the story is bad, just that world-building was pushed to the side for the sake of escalating the plot and action. I was in a rush to finish because I wanted to see the story through and I'll play through again much slower once I'm at my desktop though.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Just finished the game and absolutely adored the end-game, yet the only thing that's bothering me is why exactly Comstock became such a huge white supremist. If he was getting baptized to deal with his guilt for murdering so many people at Wounded Knee and then becomes a born-again Christain, why would he suddenly do a complete 180 on that issue if that's why he turned to religion in the first place?

Also I kept assuming Comstock wasn't so much a religious nutbag but rather a murderous conman before the plot-twist, since if he was the former I didn't really see how he could reconcile secretly murdering so many people if he did legitimately believe he was a holy prophet.

EDIT: Also while I dug Songbird I guess I could have gone for delving more into what he was exactly besides being the Columbia-version of Big Daddy. Similarly those weirdass bell-headed guys in Comstock's house near the end.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Are there any voxophones to describe where the Handymen came from? They also seem to be capable of thinking to some extent, seeing as some work for the Vox. It's confusing.

Yes, several. They are people who worked on the tower who got cancer, just like Comstock. I believe there are also voxophones that allude to the tech being approximated Big Daddy tech, just like how the vigors were created when Fink studied the work of "an amazing biologist" (Suchong, maybe) through a tear.

 

[Dr Dogg]

Just restarting this again and the whole opening exchange between the Lutece's has a massive amount of foreshadowing.

A Gentleman: Are you going to just sit there?
A Lady: As compared to what? Standing?
A Gentleman: Not standing. Rowing.
A Lady: Rowing? I hadn't planned on it
A Gentleman: So you expect me to shoulder the burden?
A Lady: No but I do expect you to do all the rowing.
A Gentleman: And why's that?
A Lady: Coming here was your idea.
A Gentleman: My idea?
A Lady: I made it very clear that I don't believe in this exercise.
A Gentleman: The rowing?
A Lady: No. I imagine that's wonderful exercise.
A Gentleman: Then what?
A Lady: The entire thought experiment.
A Gentleman: One goes into an experiment knowing one could fail.
A Lady: But one does not undertake an experiment knowing one HAS failed.
A Gentleman: Can we get back to the rowing?

Oh what a wry smile I have now knowing what has happened before. As well as the opening lines are Elizabeth's and Booker's exchange about fear. Round and round.

 

[Horse Detective]

The only thing that is stupid about that is how the Luteces manage to sit through that as many times as they do, especially if the coin toss thing shows that its going to be the same every time.


You would think they would be incredibly frustrated.

 

[Sorian]

Just finished the game and absolutely adored the end-game, yet the only thing that's bothering me is why exactly Comstock became such a huge white supremist. If he was getting baptized to deal with his guilt for murdering so many people at Wounded Knee and then becomes a born-again Christain, why would he suddenly do a complete 180 on that issue if that's why he turned to religion in the first place?

Also I kept assuming Comstock wasn't so much a religious nutbag but rather a murderous conman before the plot-twist, since if he was the former I didn't really see how he could reconcile secretly murdering so many people if he did legitimately believe he was a holy prophet.

EDIT: Also while I dug Songbird I guess I could have gone for delving more into what he was exactly besides being the Columbia-version of Big Daddy.

Snowball effect, basically. He built Columbia as a sort of haven for people that believed like he did. At that point, he was just trying to help the states but I think being told he was in the wrong after the boxer rebellion made him a bit salty. From that point on, he just kind of went nuts as time went on thinking that the people of Columbia were perfect and that those below needed to have another "great flood" so to speak. The racism probably just came about from being in charge of a city. It kind of speaks to the times that those in charge used the resources they had and it became easy to see blacks as work horses and the irish as useless.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Just finished the game and absolutely adored the end-game, yet the only thing that's bothering me is why exactly Comstock became such a huge white supremist. If he was getting baptized to deal with his guilt for murdering so many people at Wounded Knee and then becomes a born-again Christain, why would he suddenly do a complete 180 on that issue if that's why he turned to religion in the first place?

I'm sure a lot of time passed since Wounded Knee and the murders of the Lucetes and his wife. Once he becomes this untouchable Prophet, I'm sure he had no problem killing off anyone that defied him. Kinda like Walter White.

 

[Salsa]

The only thing that is stupid about that is how the Luteces manage to sit through that as many times as they do, especially if the coin toss thing shows that its going to be the same every time.


You would think they would be incredibly frustrated.

they are nutty scientist folk, they live for that shit


also on the "how is he a racist so easily": game still take places in the 1920's

 

[ii Stryker]

Rapture is the equivalent to Columbia, in another universe

the actual "connection" is just that they used it as a location when travelling through tears



it's not really a loose end. It's meant to be like that. There isn't meant to be any other kind of connection with the little sisters because that's not how the universes work, at least in the way it's implied.

It's just similarities. Different universes always have the Bioshock story and it always has similarities

"there's always a man, there's always a city". That's just it. There's nothing more that he's trying to allude to. It doesnt mean anything more.

Oh okay so they weren't speaking in absolutes, I get it now thanks.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Just finished the game and absolutely adored the end-game, yet the only thing that's bothering me is why exactly Comstock became such a huge white supremist. If he was getting baptized to deal with his guilt for murdering so many people at Wounded Knee and then becomes a born-again Christain, why would he suddenly do a complete 180 on that issue if that's why he turned to religion in the first place?

Because in being "born again," he is distancing himself from guilt, rather than accepting it.

 

[ekim]

No, there's only two Bookers: The one that had the child and gave her up, and the one who got Baptized and became Comstock.


As a matter of fact, the death sequence that happens where you reappear in your apartment and step through the door and are back at the door you just stepped through back in Columbia, you can use the coin flip thing from the beginning to get the idea that that's a different Booker than the one that actually just died. The idea of the coin flip in the beginning signifies that Booker will always have the same things happen to him/always make the same choices, so him stepping through the door is him literally having replayed the entire game up to that point and now he's back doing new things. At least, that's the impression I got.

Makes sense, yeah. But time travel themed movies,books,games are always illogical from a certain point.
Nevertheless - great game.

 

[MDSVeritas]

Another interesting point I was thinking on recently was how the entire reasoning of Booker going to Columbia is like him redoing his mistakes. There's a lot of talk about cycles, and how we are destined to do the same things over and over, but I think this is one point against that;

Booker goes to Columbia with the concept of getting Elizabeth and selling her more or less to wipe away his debt. The actual original "Bring us the girl, and wipe away the debt" is not about Booker going to Columbia, though, it's about him selling Anna to Comstock. Originally Booker sells Anna, and, even when he tries to stop it later, he fails.

When he goes to Columbia, by his own manufactured memories, it's the same general situation; he's trying to wipe away his debt by selling Elizabeth. This time, however, he learns just how valuable she is and saves her in time. This time he saves her from himself; Comstock, by seeing Elizabeth as more than a commodity (Which is more than Comstock ever saw her as).

For all the talk of cycles, one of the most significant facets of the game is Booker breaking his own.

 

[symphonask]

It's funny, I just started my second playthrough and this is the only game I can recall where your second playthrough is slower than your initial one. Just taking in all the sights with new appreciation - pausing to think when a character says something pertinent (whereas before you just glossed over it). This is a special game.

 

[MGrant]

Just finished the game and absolutely adored the end-game, yet the only thing that's bothering me is why exactly Comstock became such a huge white supremist. If he was getting baptized to deal with his guilt for murdering so many people at Wounded Knee and then becomes a born-again Christain, why would he suddenly do a complete 180 on that issue if that's why he turned to religion in the first place?

Also I kept assuming Comstock wasn't so much a religious nutbag but rather a murderous conman before the plot-twist, since if he was the former I didn't really see how he could reconcile secretly murdering so many people if he did legitimately believe he was a holy prophet.

EDIT: Also while I dug Songbird I guess I could have gone for delving more into what he was exactly besides being the Columbia-version of Big Daddy.

Comstock used his spiritual rebirth for selfish pursuits and became a full-blown narcissist. Narcissists are infamous for rationalizing their failures and prejudices through a lens of blame for others. The atrocities at Wounded Knee become a heroic struggle against subhuman aggressors in his mind. The exploited minorities become violent subhuman terrorists when they fight against their oppression. The whole Hall of Heroes sequence was great for seeing just how Comstock revised history in his own mind to fit his new identity as a prophetic holy man.

 

[Voice of Reason]

There's actually an infinite amount of Bookers. I'm sure there's a Booker that never fought at Wounded Knee and decided to become a supermodel.

 

[Sorian]

Because in being "born again," he is distancing himself from guilt, rather than accepting it.

I don't think either Booker really accepted guilt. Our Booker constantly regretted while Comstock just distanced himself. When you think about it, Booker is kind of fanatical no matter where his life goes.

 

[Horse Detective]

also on the "how is he a racist so easily": game still take places in the 1920's

But if he chooses to throw the ball at the announcer, he calls him a "sonofabitch"



Also, 1920's? What?

 

[Dr Dogg]

There's actually an infinite amount of Bookers. I'm sure there's a Booker that never fought at Wounded Knee and decided to become a supermodel.

In a universe of infinite possibilities there would also be a Booker that is you!

Spoiler

By that proxy myself also. Aghhhhhhhhhh

 

[Matt2thefuture]

Connection with Rapture. I don't think there is really any it's just more fan service and showing (like the music from our world shows) that their are other possible universes out there. One with rapture, our universe with different variation of "girls just want to have fun" etc.

One random thought I had is when you die Elizabeth brings you back to life with A syringe that looks strangely similar to the little sister and Big Daddy. Maybe in another universe (or the bioshock rapture one) Elizabeth is a little sister and booker is a big daddy.