Kotaku: The Wii U Won't Be Getting Unreal Engine 4

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I partially agree. While, to a degree, there may be a lack of awareness, I think people citing a lack of awareness as the key issue are really ignoring problems with the product itself. I think potential consumers who are currently aware of it simply do not find it an appealing product, and that even when more potential consumers are made aware of it, they similarly won't.

to be fair, i don't think anyone would find it very appealing based off what nintendo's shown. their marketing has been kind of a mess. why aren't they pushing tvii? why haven't they just tried showing people what nintendo land is? do people even know you can play the console while other people watch tv? i sure as hell wouldn't know anything about that stuff if i hadn't watched some of their e3 conferences.

hell, i was at e3 in 2011 and watching the conference on an ipad. i knew exactly what they were about to reveal. but when i popped in, reggie was talking about 'the new controller' followed by a trailer full of wii sports-like games and nsmbu. i honestly thought the controller was essentially a portable, maybe more powerful wii, that could hook up to the tv. their messaging was so poor that even people who knew what to expect had no idea what the hell they were talking about. and it's only gotten worse from there. unfortunately, the 2011 trailer is still the most concise and exciting video regarding the wii u and its capabilities.

it's kinda like the vita. i don't think either device is incapable of being saved, but i don't think the companies in charge really know what they have. they just made this thing and hoped people would like it because people like those features. if nintendo had made a game that really demonstrated why off-tv play was going to change things, or how this was better than other tablets on the market, i don't think a $350 price would have been that big a barrier, but it seems they don't believe in the device themselves, and that's a problem.
 
It's not that Wii U is a next gen console released earlier than the others, it's actually a current gen console released way later than its competition.
 
Opening up to indies is a great thing, but people don't see indie games. They see retail games.

Wii U needs retail games. And right now they're failing to get them.
 
So this thread finally winds down, but, why do I have a feeling this is just the beginning?

No matter the evidence shown, there's still going to be a bandwagon of people who defend low power hardware, and they'll keep shouting "gamecube" as a war cry.

2013,2014,2015,2016,2017 till the next Nintendo consoles comes out and the cycle of stupid begins again.

It's pretty lame that the gaming industry, of all business industries, has to put up with this.

If someone told you a car company was releasing a car with no wheels, you'd think they're insane.

You know, it's not that bad.

I'm not talking about the industry. I'm talking about the idea that one has to be upset about Nintendo's choice with regards to console power.

So Nintendo makes a weaker console. Well drat. That's kind of unfortunate, but someone thought it was their best shot at staying in business. Were they right? We'll never know for sure. But if it works well enough in the mean time, it's an okay compromise. They're still making games and they don't have to be any worse for having older graphics.

It doesn't even mean they won't make a more powerful console later. Graphics are advancing all the time. They'll get there.

I know on NeoGAF and other places you gain cred by hating things and lose cred by liking things, but that's not really a good way to be treating your entertainment.

Because the other option might be that there aren't any games to hate on. So just hope that they're making the right decision to keep those games alive, instead of insisting that they aren't allowed to compromise. I don't know if the Wii U is going to work out for them or not, but if it does, I'm not going to complain. The compromises they made aren't so unforgivable that all they deserve is failure. They're not even that big of a deal.

I don't have a Wii U right now, but I'm planning to get it when I have money. I'm not embarrassed that it's less powerful than other consoles, or that it's struggling in the market, or that developers find the idea of working on it to be laughable, or that people on NeoGAF are and think that I too should be embarrassed. I'm interested in some of the games that are announced for it.

So yeah, I'll "put up with it" because getting upset doesn't really do anything for me.
 
to be fair, i don't think anyone would find it very appealing based off what nintendo's shown. their marketing has been kind of a mess. why aren't they pushing tvii? why haven't they just tried showing people what nintendo land is? do people even know you can play the console while other people watch tv? i sure as hell wouldn't know anything about that stuff if i hadn't watched some of their e3 conferences.

hell, i was at e3 in 2011 and watching the conference on an ipad. i knew exactly what they were about to reveal. but when i popped in, reggie was talking about 'the new controller' followed by a trailer full of wii sports-like games and nsmbu. i honestly thought the controller was essentially a portable, maybe more powerful wii, that could hook up to the tv. their messaging was so poor that even people who knew what to expect had no idea what the hell they were talking about. and it's only gotten worse from there. unfortunately, the 2011 trailer is still the most concise and exciting video regarding the wii u and its capabilities.

it's kinda like the vita. i don't think either device is incapable of being saved, but i don't think the companies in charge really know what they have. they just made this thing and hoped people would like it because people like those features. if nintendo had made a game that really demonstrated why off-tv play was going to change things, or how this was better than other tablets on the market, i don't think a $350 price would have been that big a barrier, but it seems they don't believe in the device themselves, and that's a problem.

It really does appear as if Nintendo either does not believe in the Wii U, or does not understand the appeal of their own console. Perhaps they are waiting for the summer to really push it in the market so as to not waste resources.

... I don't know.
 
I know it's a near cliche thing to say at this point, but I'll echo the sentiment nonetheless; I didn't buy my Wii U to play third party, multiplatform titles. I bought it to play Nintendo games and the unique host of games that will eventually grow on the platform. As next gen comes into full swing, I can all be guarantee that Wii U won't be where I spend the majority of my time, but I know there will be more than enough reasons to play it over the coming years.

That said, I do pity anyone who thought Nintendo was going to provide them their sole console for the foreseeable future.
 
Nintendo games don't run on Unreal Engine, so while the news is annoying, I'm not terribly torn up about it. I'll still have enough games on the system that are worth playing that I don't see myself regretting owning the console. Hell, for the time being Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate is carrying that weight completely on its own, and that's an uprezzed port of a 3DS game which itself is an updated port of a Wii game (which, depending on who you listen do, would make it just a slightly beefed-up Gamecube game).

All this means is that Nintendo's dreams of making the Wii U someone's one-stop-shop for video gaming is completely dead in the water, at least as far as it pertains to the Western audience. If you want the big-name, big-budget games, you'll need an Xbox or a Playstation. Which, software-wise, is the exact same fucking thing that happened in the Wii/PS3/360 generation. Wii U may not have the hardware sales advantage that the Wii did over its relative competition, but in the end when it came to actual games, that never made much of a difference anyway.
 
Expect we are not spinning it, Wii U is next gen if you like it or not.

If the Wii 3 was more powerful than the PS5, the PS5 would still be a 9th gen system.

The N64 was a lot more powerful than the PS1/Saturn, that doesn't mean the PS1/Saturn were 4.5 gen while N64 was true 5th gen.

And wouldn't technology also mean controller? From what I can see the Gamepad is more "next gen" than the DS4.

I feel like you and other people calling Wii U "next gen" are talking about different things but using the same words.

Yes, the Wii U is part of the same generation, just like the Wii was part of the last generation.

That's not what people are talking about when they discuss "next gen," though. No one gives a shit about what "era" a console belongs to. They're talking about the technical specs. Just like the Wii did not run anything remotely on the level of the 360 or PS3, neither will the Wii U. It's just not on the same level as the PS4 and most likely the next Xbox, so that means new technologies really can't target it. It means that "multiplatform" will continue to exclude Nintendo's console.

That doesn't mean there won't be great games that define this generation on Wii U. Mario Galaxy, Skyward Sword, etc. were generation defining games in my book. I fully expect we will see greatness on that same level from Nintendo on the Wii U. It's just that it's going to be only from Nintendo most likely.
 
You know, it's not that bad.

I'm not talking about the industry. I'm talking about the idea that one has to be upset about Nintendo's choice with regards to console power.

So Nintendo makes a weaker console. Well drat. That's kind of unfortunate, but someone thought it was their best shot at staying in business. Were they right? We'll never know for sure. But if it works well enough in the mean time, it's an okay compromise. They're still making games and they don't have to be any worse for having older graphics.

It doesn't even mean they won't make a more powerful console later. Graphics are advancing all the time. They'll get there.
Why target graphics of all things? Visuals are literally the core of video games. They're as essential to a game as a controller is, yet Nintendo doesn't remove buttons every generation.

If Nintendo wants to stay in the business (whatever that means) they need to target something that doesn't cause a domino effect of pissing off core gamers and developers.

As for an ok compromise...

"Hahaha no." Rein said, with expert comedic timing. The room erupted with laughter.
 
Everyone sold less hardware and less software overall. It's true that the Wii U and Vita are doing really terribly and the 3DS has slipped as well, but you can't pin this solely on them. Look at the actual NPD numbers from year to year if you don't believe me.

PS3/360 sold only slightly less than the year before and that´s because they are 7 years old.
 
Nintendo should have scrapped the terrible Gamepad idea and focused on creating a more powerful console.

Nope, if anything they should have done both. The GamePad is awesome, I just wanted a machine with higher specifications. I would have paid for it also, but I'd have been happy for Nintendo to have taken a nice loss on it until it manufacturing costs dropped enough.
 
It really does appear as if Nintendo either does not believe in the Wii U, or does not understand the appeal of their own console. Perhaps they are waiting for the summer to really push it in the market so as to not waste resources.

... I don't know.

this is my hypothesis of what happened behind the scenes:

2010: nintendo was planning to launch the 3ds worldwide at the end of the year with the wii u hitting at some point late 2011. they were unprepared for the level of work required for 3ds games, and wound up pushing the device back several months. they also expected the system to sell on its extremely positive word of mouth from e3 2010, and expected it to be their little profit-maker at $250 while they spent r&d on the wii u.

2011: wii u games were also giving them difficulties, so they pushed launch back to the first half of 2012 to give their teams more time. when the 3ds floundered in every major region, it became their number one focus, and work on all but the most important wii u titles (namely, nintendo land and nsmbu) were dropped to focus on saving the 3ds. because of this, they were forced to push the wii u back even further, and had less games ready than they would have liked.

2012: because the 3ds took up so many resources, and that it had gone from making them profits to making them losses, nintendo took a very conservative approach to the wii u's launch. now, i think the could have had better advertising, but the amount was pretty low, and it has continued to stay almost nonexistent after launch.

2013: now that shit is really hitting the fan, nintendo will likely abandon the 3ds in favor of saving the wii u (they did a similar thing with the gamecube and gba in the early part of last decade). they are probably hedging their bets on when to start some sort of blitz leading into a relaunch. at this point the system's doing so poorly that a game like pikmin on its lonesome probably won't do anything, but coupled with another major release or two in a row, it could spark some interest among hardcore fans that don't own the system (because it's tracking below even the gamecube- so there are some older nintendo fans who don't have one of these things).

and all of this is going on amidst restructuring and building new studios. this will be a transition generation for nintendo, kinda like the gamecube era was when the old r&d teams were merged into parts of spd, ird, and ead. it might even be a sort of lost generation where they just try to keep their head down and get through the generation while thinking up their next move (again, like the gamecube).

the one thing that's weird to me is why nintendo went the lazy route. in 2004, touch screen/dual screen gaming was a foreign idea. hell you had people claiming they would never use one in public because it seemed so silly (there were also comparisons to defunct touch screen devices). it was a gamble, but it paid off, and now touch screens are one of the most common means of input. in 2006 they gambled again with motion controls, and once again it paid off. now, it appears that all next-gen consoles will have motion controls of some sort, and even the vita and 3ds have the ability. in both cases, they backed up their beliefs with software. i think there was some legitimate excitement for touch screen gaming and motion controls within nintendo. but 3d? it seems like it was something they were sitting on for a long time and figured now was the time 3d was popular, so they might as well get it out. the gamepad? tablets are popular, so people will buy another tablet device.
 
Nice speculation AniHawk.


I also think it's in part due to Nintendo struggling with HD development. Seems to have been a problem with a number of Japanese publishers working with larger teams in a less intimate, corporate structure. I can see 40-60 people in a small office working on Pikmin 3, where EA studios or Capcom has multiple floors with hundreds of people. It's going to be a rough transition for Nintendo.
 
This is more cold blooded than EA's unprecedented relationship stuff, at least they didnt laugh about it in public lol
 
If one out of the 3-4 platforms I'll be playing on the coming years doesn't 'support' UE4 I ain't losing any sleep over it.
 
Even if the Wii U would have an amazing raw power, the third party support would be the same, happen with the N64 and Game Cube there is always going to be excuses for developers, see for example Dice, they changed their excuse a lot of times about not releasing their games on Wii U.

Also with the laugh he made and the entire room it makes me clear that there is a lot of hatred against Nintendo, no way there would be laughs if somebody asked if Xbox360 and PS3 would have UE4 support.

And of course for most of developers the Wii U is not next gen, mainly because for them next gen are consoles or devices capable to run their new engines without adapting or downscaling it, that's sad because very few are interested to add new features and new ways to play.

Wii U is doing terrible this year but is mostly because the lack of software more than their hardware capabilities, there is a lot of features that can be interesting for the Wii U in the future, like Miiverse and NFC for example. Also many people don't have any idea what is the Wii U, is not like they're uninterested. Nintendo still can relaunch their Wii U, with new bundles (basic and deluxe was nonsense), big titles and better advertising.
 
but 3d? it seems like it was something they were sitting on for a long time and figured now was the time 3d was popular, so they might as well get it out.
They had 3D with the NES. There were attempts to push it with Gamecube/Gameboy Advance but the technology was too primitive plus cost was high back then.

With the 3DS, the tech was mature. I'm not sure if they released it in response to 3D's popularity (coincidence?).


Even if the Wii U would have an amazing raw power, the third party support would be the same, happen with the N64 and Game Cube there is always going to be excuses for developers, see for example Dice, they changed their excuse a lot of times about not releasing their games on Wii U.

Gamecube had a mainline Soul Calibur and was powerful. Future Nintendo consoles didn't get any and they were weak.

Funny how the support changes huh?
 
Why target graphics of all things? Visuals are literally the core of video games. They're as essential to a game as a controller is, yet Nintendo doesn't remove buttons every generation.

If Nintendo wants to stay in the business (whatever that means) they need to target something that doesn't cause a domino effect of pissing off core gamers and developers.

As for an ok compromise...

Yeah, you know. You can let yourself enjoy a game with older graphics. I mean, almost everyone has old games that they still like.

I mean, for me, I don't feel like it's never worth getting a game with older graphics. It's not really a big deal. And if it helps keep the company in business and continuing to make new games, I'm not complaining. I don't know if the Wii U is going to work out for Nintendo, but if it does, why should I be upset? The games I like are getting made and the compromise to get there isn't unforgivable .

I don't understand why you would think this is such a big deal, but at least get there's no obligation to be offended by the Wii U. I just don't feel like it's worth it to be upset.
 
Yeah, you know. You can let yourself enjoy a game with older graphics. I mean, almost everyone has old games that they still like.

I mean, for me, I don't feel like it's never worth getting a game with older graphics. It's not really a big deal. And if it helps keep the company in business and continuing to make new games, I'm not complaining. I don't know if the Wii U is going to work out for Nintendo, but if it does, why should I be upset? The games I like are getting made and the compromise to get there isn't unforgivable .

I don't understand why you would think this is such a big deal, but at least get there's no obligation to be offended by the Wii U. I just don't feel like it's worth it to be upset.
Enjoying an older game with older graphics is different from companies sticking with the old in the age of the new.
 
Bye bye wii u looks like you will only be turned on for Zelda and super smash 4 it's sad it has to be like this Nintendo I had faith.
 
Yeah, you know. You can let yourself enjoy a game with older graphics. I mean, almost everyone has old games that they still like.

I mean, for me, I don't feel like it's never worth getting a game with older graphics. It's not really a big deal. And if it helps keep the company in business and continuing to make new games, I'm not complaining. I don't know if the Wii U is going to work out for Nintendo, but if it does, why should I be upset? The games I like are getting made and the compromise to get there isn't unforgivable .

I don't understand why you would think this is such a big deal, but at least get there's no obligation to be offended by the Wii U. I just don't feel like it's worth it to be upset.
Why doesn't the whole industry go back to making old games if it's so enjoyable? I don't know about you but 20fps and tiny environments aren't always timeless.

Old games are old for a reason. For their time it made sense but new technology changes all that.

Nintendo forcing people and developers into degrading themselves with outdated visuals is beyond stupid. It helps no one.
 
Enjoying an older game with older graphics is different from companies sticking with the old in the age of the new.

Well you're playing a game that was made in 2012 and decide that you would like it more now if it were made in 2006, then the only difference is in your head.



Why doesn't the whole industry go back to making old games if it's so enjoyable? I don't know about you but 20fps and tiny environments aren't always timeless.

Old games are old for a reason. For their time it made sense but new technology changes all that.

Nintendo forcing people and developers into degrading themselves with outdated visuals is beyond stupid. It helps no one.

What in the world?

You think it's degrading to play games with older graphics?

Help me out here. Am I understanding you? What it sounds like you're saying is ridiculous.
 
Let's hope that they focus on other games and other gaming concepts. No need for another multiplat console.
I rather see them taking a different route than PS4 and 720. Maybe they can really strike gold with a good NFC based game.
 
What in the world?

You think it's degrading to play games with older graphics?

Help me out here. Am I understanding you because what you're saying sounds ridiculous.
oppsI.jpg

Both these images are from the same game but one has noticeably improved image quality. Why would anyone choose the worse looking game?

Now apply this every game being made.

Bad graphics kill immersion factor.

Bad graphics also force developers to limit their imagination.
 
Hahahahaha wow this thread is great and moves quickly.

The thing I find most hilarious are the insults certain people are directing at Merk Rein for not putting UE4 on the WiiU. That should be Nintendo's job.

Its like developers have to serious all the time, you can't laugh make jokes or have fun.

Also I think people are greatly misunderstanding what he has said. I am sure that he was laughing not at the WiiU but at the fact that a last gen console will get UE4. Its like if the guy got up and asked is the ps3/360 getting UE4. I am sure he would laughed and said no because it has UE3.

Lets not try and spin this into some conspiracy hat third parties want Nintendo to fail. No one wants that. Nintendo are a vital part of this industry just like Sony and MS. If anyone of them left it would have serious implications for the industry.

Maybe they can really strike gold with a good NFC based game.

They are way too late for that.
Acti has Skylanders which is massive with younger children and Disney is also entering the market. They might make some money of Pokemon NFC but they have serious competition now.
 
Both these images are from the same game but one has noticeably improved image quality. Why would anyone choose the worse looking game?

Now apply this every game being made.

Bad graphics kill immersion factor.

Well I prefer the image on the right but I didn't feel degraded by looking at the image on the left.
 
Well I prefer the image on the right but I didn't feel degraded by looking at the image on the left.

No one feels degraded with the image on the left. Its just better having a better looking game. Theres no other way to say it. Having better graphics can only be a positive if everything else is held constant.
 
Well I prefer the image on the right but I didn't feel degraded by looking at the image on the left.
Well I do. Because forcing me to look at the bad image assumes I'm a person who will play any bad looking game. Nor does it want me to have the most fun with a game.
 
oppsI.jpg

Both these images are from the same game but one has noticeably improved image quality. Why would anyone choose the worse looking game?

Now apply this every game being made.

Bad graphics kill immersion factor.

Bad graphics also force developers to limit their imagination.
What do you mean by "bad graphics force developers to limit their imagination?"
 
Bad graphics also force developers to limit their imagination.

limitation can breed creativity though. beyond good & evil was meant to look more realistic at the start, but due to the ps2's lack of power, ancel and the team made it much more stylistic. 10 years later, and i think they made the right choice.
 
No one feels degraded with the image on the left. Its just better having a better looking game. Theres no other way to say it. Having better graphics can only be a positive if everything else is held constant.

Well you would think no one would feel degraded but then people like Jordan suggest that people should be.

I mean, follow my logic. Why does it have to be such a big deal that I can't enjoy a system with older graphics? Is it something that has to be worth being upset about? I'm not feeling the outrage or embarrassment of owning a console with lesser graphics, though I have to admit this is weirding me out a little.


Well I do. Because forcing me to look at the bad image assumes I'm a person who will play any bad looking game. Nor does it want me to have the most fun with a game.

Well there you go. There's someone. I don't know what to say to that except that you shouldn't take it so personally.
 
Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games. Shame on Mark Rein and shame on the GDC.

If the Unreal Engine 4 can run on mobile phones, Rein, it can run in the Wii U, you bigoted fuck.
 
Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games. Shame on Mark Rein and shame on the GDC.

If the Unreal Engine 4 can run on mobile phones, Rein, it can run in the Wii U, you bigoted fuck.

christ man, calm down.
 
you don't think these people would want to create grander games if they just had more time and money?
Oh definitely. But it's not the same as a developer who does have the money but is later forced to scale back on their ambitions.

In the case of that skyward sword image, I would "yeah" that post. But I doubt the Wii U will hold back art specifically.
Nope. If a developer has an idea and the Wii U can't run it they're being held back.
 
This is a non sequitur. You're just trying to deflect your horribly flawed argument. Just admit you're a graphics whore and move along. You'll always have PC.

Yeah, I'm a graphics whore. Just look at my avatar.
Hps0w9a.png

Supporting 16-bit graphics? What's the matter with me?
 
Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games. Shame on Mark Rein and shame on the GDC.

If the Unreal Engine 4 can run on mobile phones, Rein, it can run in the Wii U, you bigoted fuck.

It's the Game Developers Conference, not a gathering of the UN.

Remember, we're intruding on them here. They have every right to shoot the shit. Hell, I wish every developer was this candid and upfront. Beats the bullshit PC answers we get all the time.
 
Oh definitely. But it's not the same as a developer who does have the money but is later forced to scale back on their ambitions.


Nope. If a developer has an idea and the Wii U can't run it they're being held back.

So basically if you're doing photorealism its a problem. That's a fair argument. However anything else really is a non-issue hardware wise.
 
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