You probably have already caught on to it. But the title is revenge of the jedi, which is what George Lucas was originally going to call the third film, but i believe it was changed shortly before release. So it plays into the idea of slightly different realities. In that one, the title wasn't changed to "return".
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
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You probably have already caught on to it. But the title is revenge of the jedi, which is what George Lucas was originally going to call the third film, but i believe it was changed shortly before release. So it plays into the idea of slightly different realities. In that one, the title wasn't changed to "return".
It's more science fiction than supernatural, plus bioshock 1 + 2 just one universe out of millions that fits in with the theory of "they will always be a man and a lighthouse" they were showing that.
Well after that Elizabeth talks about "different lighthouse, different man, different girl..." Which I took kind of as a state of games thing. We've just played this fantastical game that has all these elements, but and the end of the day, it's just another shooter with a story. Just like Bioshock 1 was.
And she used the water to drown the Songbird. Just so happened she was in rapture. And she was showing you all different types of possibilities. I didnt even feel like it was a reference (if you know what i mean). I loved it. Maybe my favorite part of the whole thing.
Fringe used pretty much the exact quote from Soul Reaver, except replacing"time" with "nature".You mean Soul Reaver?
Yeah anyone who loves this story and wants more of this kind of stuff, I highly recommend checking out the Soul Reaver series. SR 1 and 2 and then Defiance.
The One Who Knocks
Member
That is indeed, seemingly, the case. That's what the operation performed on Elizabeth would have done. The doctors/scientists that were in charge of it were asked by Comstock to create a response in Elizabeth so that when she created a tear she felt pain. By creating a negative feedback and opening a tear, she eventually would stop trying to create tears to escape, resist etc. The doctors made the pain great enough that it would 'make her weep'.
Dr. Harrison Powell said:
As a result of this, she never broke the siphon so it seems likely that it would have significantly drained her and she gave up hope of rescue.
As a result, the final tears were likely extremely difficult for Old Elizabeth to perform.Elizabeth said:
*The transcripts were gotten from http://pastebin.com/sdirJX12 which was uploaded by the user "Goblin" in post 4309 from this thread
EDIT:
Yes. Two Voxophones indicate they were from a different timeline:
(I've only pasted one here since I immediately found it, the other is about studying the same particle in two worlds) Brother, what Comstock failed to understand is that our contraption is a window not into prophecy, but probability. But his money means the Lutece Field could become the Lutece Tear - a window between worlds. A window through which you and I might finally be together.
and then this shows that they were precisely the same with the exception of gender:
You have been transfused, brother, into a new reality, but your body rejects the cognitive dissonance through confusion and hemorrhage. But we are together, and I will mend you. For what separates us now, but a single chromosome?
So it makes sense that they're two different versions of the same person (of course, it could literally be an identical twin in another universe that was then brought into female Lutece's universe but it just seems simpler [and implied] that they're two different versions of the same person).
It seem to be then that there is nowhere left to go in this world if we have already discovered the element of the story that ties everything together. Has it been confirmed this is Irrationals last throw of the dice with the franchise?
I am at a weird place with this game, I like the gameplay and I think the world was fantastic, I dislike the tears as it relates to the world of Bioshock but thought as part of the game they were the best parts. I honestly still dont see how this is a Bioshock game, I know they have plasmids and vlogs and endless trash cans to search but I would have much preferred they renamed it something else, it would have made the story and scenario much more acceptable to me.
WrenchNinja
Member
No, because he was angry that Comstock was claiming that he fought at wounded knee.
Mango Positive
Member
I shot him. It felt right. A mercy killing.
ThusZarathustra
Member
No everyone is willing to give up their sense of hard-and-fast plot logic in the digestion of narrative, even the digestion of narrative in such a weird-ass medium as video games. Metaphor, symbolism and allegory, especially when done with only a modicum rather than torrent of depth, can quite easily be read as fuzziness, complacency and laziness. And that's a perfectly valid reading, but I think it over-emphasizes the literal, logical view of life and stories, as if that's what stories were actually about: logic and the literal, rather than emotions and the metaphorical.
And yeah, I get there has to be a balance 'tween the two, but at some point you're simply deciding that you're unwilling to FEEL just because you can't THINK your way into the feelings.
Or something. It's early and these aren't the most fully formed thoughts...
And yeah, I get there has to be a balance 'tween the two, but at some point you're simply deciding that you're unwilling to FEEL just because you can't THINK your way into the feelings.
Or something. It's early and these aren't the most fully formed thoughts...
Wrestlemania
Banned
You accepted all the other sci-fi/supernatural parts of the game (rifts in time and space, floating cities, powers enabled by drinking vigors etc.) but the multiverse concept was too supernatural? Weird. Nothing in the ending felt out of place to me.
All Rapture represents is another version of this story playing out from the infinite possible variations. There's always a man, there's always a lighthouse, there's always a city.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Another thing is that you can find a voice recording of Fink, where he talks about the bee's "working moral".
WrenchNinja
Member
As Ive slept on it, I get a little more disappointed. Songbird was a completely wasted opportunity in the game. Relegated to scripted sequences, constantly told to the player to be afraid of him, and then used as a tool in the end for the player. I may have missed the Voxaphone, but aside from him being based on the Big Daddies and created by Fink, is there any clue to who he is or what his connection to Elizabeth is? Whatever, it doesnt matter. Ugh.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
The problem is that the twins talk about how past present and future are the same, how everything that has happened will happen, everything that will happen has happened, and so forth. It's explicitly deterministic. But then at the end she can alter time in a deterministic universe just because? And when she alters it she also wipes herself out and Back To The Future logic is in full force with her suddenly ceasing to exist but only after she went through with it. This scene is where the game went full retard, in my opinion.
One thing this game almost did well, but fell short on was the red tears, I have posted this before in a little rant I had after finishing the game, but ill expand on it here. So the best and worst part of the game for me was the tears, this rip into another world, particularly the red tears, which gave the characters glimpses of songs from the future. I only remember 3 of these tears in the game, two music and one of the streets of Paris, which was familiar to anyone who viewed the E3 footage way back when the game was announced. The tears used in the game most frequently (other than strategic ones in fights) were used to take you into an alternate reality where one or a few variables had changed, and while this was an interesting concept at heart it really did nothing but force you to traverse already covered ground to hit a story arch. I find this to be the worst trope in video games, I am a gamer who loves exploring and finds it incredibly difficult to replay games, which means on my initial run through I make sure to 100% as much as I can. I collect every coin, every vlog, every side mission, search every trash can, bench, you name it, so forcing me to go back from where I came is pretty much wasting my time, even if it is critical to the story. So in this way the tears were an interesting notion, but ultimately flawed.
I remember back in E3 when I first saw the tears of the Paris backdrop my initial reaction was, "holy shit they are going to let me play in different strands of time", my mind raced with gameplay possibilities of going to a different time and place, even for small sections of the game, and yes I did wonder, would i return to rapture? I thought perhaps this was going to be one of those games where the mysteries are only discovered as you go forward and back in time, parcing clues in the future from what potentiall could happen and from the past about how the situation came to be in the first place. Now Infinite did do this in a way, but it did it within the confines of Columbia. I thought from an artistic and gameplay point of view going to the future and past would be a completely unique experience, and it was something I was excited for. Infinite didnt deliver on this, instead it teased the possibility but no more than that, and I find that to be the biggest shame, not only because I was hopeful but because of all the teams to do it I thought Irrational could.
I remember back in E3 when I first saw the tears of the Paris backdrop my initial reaction was, "holy shit they are going to let me play in different strands of time", my mind raced with gameplay possibilities of going to a different time and place, even for small sections of the game, and yes I did wonder, would i return to rapture? I thought perhaps this was going to be one of those games where the mysteries are only discovered as you go forward and back in time, parcing clues in the future from what potentiall could happen and from the past about how the situation came to be in the first place. Now Infinite did do this in a way, but it did it within the confines of Columbia. I thought from an artistic and gameplay point of view going to the future and past would be a completely unique experience, and it was something I was excited for. Infinite didnt deliver on this, instead it teased the possibility but no more than that, and I find that to be the biggest shame, not only because I was hopeful but because of all the teams to do it I thought Irrational could.
Oh shit I totally didn't even realize this. Comstock really was the hero of Wounded Knee
WrenchNinja
Member
Thats when I started to piece it together.
Voice of Reason
Banned
But the Luteces themselves created the rift to stop Comstock. I think their theory applies, until you actually create a rift and disrupt one of the timelines.
Comstock had Fink make it to guard Elizabeth. And its behavior towards her was pretty much exactly a Big Daddy's behavior towards a little sister. Plus, fighting the songbird is not the point of the game. Elizabeth told you that every time you fight it you die. That's why she pulled you to the New York future. To make sure you have the card so you won't have to fight it and die.
As soon as the tear was opened to an alternate timeline when the gunsmith was still alive, this is immediately what came to mind:
I told myself "Please tell me no one gets their hands on an Almanac."
A floating city, just as a city underwater isnt so much supernatural as a matter of engineering, theoretically with all the resources and money in the world neither is unfeasible. Plasmids are on the sci fi end and I thought in Bioshock they did an interesting job in explaining how unhampered and slightly lunatic scientists without restraints were able to create genetic alterations. It is still fantastical yes but in regards to wacky sci fi, "turn off your brain" stuff I dont think its the same as tears. Why I am in such a weird space with this game is if you called it "Columbia, Infinite" or something like that I would accept this game without qualm, but they called it Bioshock, they introduced a link to rapture and I feel it never earned the right to introduce tears and multiverse into an established world.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
"He's DeWitt!"
"He's Comstock!"
"I'm both."
Amazing.
That first experiences was so good. I still can't stop thinking about the story.
"He's Comstock!"
"I'm both."
Amazing.
That first experiences was so good. I still can't stop thinking about the story.
symphonask
Member
Hahahaha yep picked up on it as soon as my school boy French did the translation. Didn't Lucas change the title at the 11th hour citing "Jedi don't seek revenge". Hence why we get Revenge of the Sith. Though if you take a brief second to think of environments, the themes and motivations of certain character from both Infinite and Jedi you do see a few very distinct similarities. Levine is a self confessed geek so I wouldn't be surprised if this has something to do with the narrative.
Didn't help that I went on a media blackout for Infinite but the E3 demo did show a tear into the future showing a cinema show a film with the title as Revenge of the Jedi in English. Pretty much the same set but no Eiffel Tower in the background so was before the decided the Paris setting for Elizabeth's place of yearning. Still after avoiding all the trailers, interviews and demos and now finishing the game is quite eye opening to read and watch through them now afterwards.
WrenchNinja
Member
But fighting waves of boring enemies is definitely the point of the game, right?
Would have been nice to actually get a chance to fight it and at the end they can have their scripted death or whatever.
Allow it to have some agency. Songbird never actually kills you in the game. At least the Dahaka in Prince of Persia: Warrior Within could do that. SA-X in Metroid Fusion could do that. Nemesis in Resident Evil 3 could do that. Songbird really adds nothing to the game. If the biggest contribution he has is being another example of Fink ripping off other realities and just being a story hurdle, well thats just really pathetic.
It wasn't that great for me. Maybe cause I saw the whole him being Comstock thing coming from a mile away, and when I thought that was what was going on I was hoping for it not to be that. Game was still great, but the ending left me unsatisfied.
Playing this reminded me I need to pick up VLR.
Playing this reminded me I need to pick up VLR.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I thought they were going to go the opposite twist with Lady Comstock being Elizabeth.
i made a gif version
Toilet potatoes was a step too far for me.
Yes. The Letuces are the same person in different realities. One question though, if the man/lighthouse/girl scenario applies to Rapture, who's the girl? I don't see a major female character in BS1 aside from Tenenbaum, and doubt it's Sofia Lamb or the Big Sister from BS2.
Patrick Bateman
Member
They could have named it Skyshock.
Sky-o-shock
Ban Puncher
Member
Sooo....wonder where Irrational will go narratively with the three proposed DLC packs.
Play as Booker in a different tear/the after credits universe or as Elizabeth/Anna and explore multiple realities?
Play as Fink's son who watched Fitzroy murder his father?
Play as the guy sitting on the shop step who was super keen to teach you about Greco-Roman wrasslin'?
Personally I'd like one of them to be a kind of silly alternative universe, very tongue in cheek and it knows it is a video game. Like the Mass Effect 3 Citadel DLC but hamming it up way more.
Play as Booker in a different tear/the after credits universe or as Elizabeth/Anna and explore multiple realities?
Play as Fink's son who watched Fitzroy murder his father?
Play as the guy sitting on the shop step who was super keen to teach you about Greco-Roman wrasslin'?
Personally I'd like one of them to be a kind of silly alternative universe, very tongue in cheek and it knows it is a video game. Like the Mass Effect 3 Citadel DLC but hamming it up way more.
Excellent points.
I agree about the aesthetics being worth the price of admission, though. In general the art and sound direction in this game is A+. Perhaps some of the best I have ever seen in a game. But the narrative is a convoluted mess that plays fast and lose with its concepts and never develops any of them sufficiently.
Last night I compared it to Prometheus, and the more I think about that comparison the more it really fits. Both were huge blockbuster budgeted projects that were delayed multiple times. Both were aesthetically breathtaking but tonally and thematically inconsistent. Bioshock wants to be a social satire, a personal relationship story, and a hard scifi story all at the same time. Prometheus wanted to be a horror movie, a philosophical scifi film, and a metaphorical investigation of the meaning of life all at the same time. Both bite off way more than they could chew in terms of trying to set up themes that weren't sufficiently developed and paced. Etc. Etc.
Bioshock Infinite is front loaded with amazing ambience and set pieces in the opening 20 minutes and backloaded with a sloppy narrative dump in the last 20 minutes.
I suppose that does apply to the different variables and constants.
Also, I'm not entirely clear on how the How Booker and Slate fight at Wounded Knee but somehow Comstock has traveled to/exists in that same timeline? I know he travels to a non-baptism timeline to get Anna, but how do they deal with the age discrepancy there? Are booker and slate the same age when the fight and Comstock was the booker he fought with (and thus why they're both old), or is the booker you play as the one who fights with slate? He remembers it, but that could just be the memories of another timeline
People should think BS2 as alternate reality sequel. which doesn't fit in the "one man one lighthouse" theory.
WrenchNinja
Member
Delta is one man, he went down the lighthouse, Eleanor is the girl.
Well, in any universe where BS2 exists, BS1 happened, so the man/lighthouse conditions are already met. BS2 would just be a further extrapolation of those events.
Elizabeth's relationship to Booker: Get mad at something. Runs away. A shoot bang occurs. Things are reconciled without ever being reconciled.
Bookers relationship to Elizabeth: "Elizabeth, I'm sorry." Press "X" to console prompt appears.
That is pretty much the extent of the deep relational development as far as I can tell. Even the scene when both of them become aware (re-aware?) that she is his daughter is handled in a nonchalant underdeveloped fashion.
Bookers relationship to Elizabeth: "Elizabeth, I'm sorry." Press "X" to console prompt appears.
That is pretty much the extent of the deep relational development as far as I can tell. Even the scene when both of them become aware (re-aware?) that she is his daughter is handled in a nonchalant underdeveloped fashion.
2Ns1T
Patrick Bateman
Member
Baptismoshock.
Comshock.
Nope, wave-based survival modes as far as the eye can see.
On a more serious note, has Irrational stated that the DLC will be story based?
Did I miss this? Is the moment from E3 still in it? Or is it just a small tear you can look through?
Inferno313
Banned
It's the tear to Paris Elizabeth opens in her bedroom the first time.
I remember FartofWar saying something to that effect, yeah.
Inferno313
Banned
Also. The actual French title of the film is La Retour Du Jedi. That would be the french translation of the original title "Revenge of the Jedi" which Lucas changed to Return later on.
Constants and Variables.
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