sans_pants
avec_pénis
except the jobs are never coming back
Britian -Sweeping changes to "the dole" take effect
- Thread starter Liberty4all
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except the jobs are never coming back
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Not my kinda climate.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
In the 17 European countries that use the euro as their currency, the numbers are even worse. Almost 4.3 million low-pay jobs have been gained since mid-2009, but the loss of midpay jobs has never stopped. A total of 7.6 million disappeared from January 2008 through last June.
everything is fine
everything is fine
They will, they have before on numerous occasions.
Don't believe all the hyperbole spoke in a recession. When the next one hits in around 10-15 years, that one will be declared the worse in history, everyone will protest the cuts, we will all wish we hadn't spent so much during the boom. The cycle will continue.
This recession is tame, seriously it is. Just wait for a proper boom driven recession where everything spirals out of control and we have massive interest and inflation so we can't just print our way out of trouble. Now that'll give us plenty to moan about.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
current conditions are nothing like the past
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/middle-class-jobs-machines_n_2532639.html
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Because until very recently I was employed in a what at the time seemed a stable above minimum wage job.
Yes, I can't remember the exact specifics but it was to do with earnings between April 2012 and April 2013 her minimal earnings coupled with student loan (which should be exempt from the calculation anyway because it's intention is not to provide liveable income but to pay for materials for university)
Necroscope
Member
I completely agree. They should make people work for the money for the community based on the skill they had. For example, if you are educated, you should help tutoring kids and adults under supervision of other professionals. If you are young and not very skilled, go pick up a broom or something and keep the street and the park clean. I don't understand how people can collect money and sitting on their ass most of the time without make use of themselves to the society in one way or another. There are a lot of volunteer work that one can do. They should be doing these things while collecting the doles until they found job that can sustain themselves. No job is really too low or beneath anyone. Anything is better than an unproductive member of a society that is perfectly healthy and capable of doing something.
https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain-duncan-smith-to-live-on-53-a-week
Not that it will happen, but I'd like to think someone might notice the dissatisfaction.
Not that it will happen, but I'd like to think someone might notice the dissatisfaction.
Oh, you are in fact a class A cretin. Thanks for clarifying.
The student loan should get discounted to a certain degree when calculating entitlement to take into account study materials, but it is considered mostly 'income' that pays for rent and food. But that still just doesn't sound right. A partner can work up to 24 hours a week and you'd still qualify for something on income based JSA, which going on the basis that £6600 disqualifies you means a wage of £5.20 an hour would be too high. I can believe a lot of things about our crappy benefits system, but not that £5.20 an hour, 24 hours a week, is considered enough for two to live on without aid when one of them is seeking work. Honestly, I'd request a review.
Also, what about contribution based JSA, as you were working before?
This is a very emotional topic and it's bound to polarise opinions. I know lots of people on the dole and they have good lives, luxury goods nights out etc. This is what is wrong with the welfare system in the Uk.
If you are on welfare then you should be poor. That is the greatest incentive to try get another job or get educated. I left school with no exams, worked on building sites...long story short I'm about to complete a PhD and I have no doubt I will land a good job. I have learned NOTHING is impossible if you want something bad enough.
The welfare system here is too lenient..it pays too much and allows people to drop off the radar so they can sit on their asses reaping the taxes of others. It allows single mothers to rape the system and the loop holes are just crazy. Some one can work 22 hours per week from January til April to get tax credits (either child or working)...then once it has been given for the tax year they can stop work while still claiming credits.
I know for fact because this is how my ex operates and has done for the best part of 15 years. Terrible, so I for one welcome the new changes.
I'll just add that my wife and I can't afford to have anymore kids because of how much childcare costs. We pay about £900 a month to have 2 kids watched. All while families on the dole bang out kid after kid and tax payers pick up the bill. Its disgusting there are now 3 generations of families in houses who have never worked.
If you are on welfare then you should be poor. That is the greatest incentive to try get another job or get educated. I left school with no exams, worked on building sites...long story short I'm about to complete a PhD and I have no doubt I will land a good job. I have learned NOTHING is impossible if you want something bad enough.
The welfare system here is too lenient..it pays too much and allows people to drop off the radar so they can sit on their asses reaping the taxes of others. It allows single mothers to rape the system and the loop holes are just crazy. Some one can work 22 hours per week from January til April to get tax credits (either child or working)...then once it has been given for the tax year they can stop work while still claiming credits.
I know for fact because this is how my ex operates and has done for the best part of 15 years. Terrible, so I for one welcome the new changes.
I'll just add that my wife and I can't afford to have anymore kids because of how much childcare costs. We pay about £900 a month to have 2 kids watched. All while families on the dole bang out kid after kid and tax payers pick up the bill. Its disgusting there are now 3 generations of families in houses who have never worked.
This is your first recession hence the "passion" the I guess. You'll soon find them boring when the next "worst one ever" hits.
Calling people names who don't hold the same opinion as you is quite pathetic by the way.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Sounds like class war to me. We cant be having that, sunshine.
Hyperbolic media articles like that are exactly what I'm talking about.
cyberheater
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Exactly. The current welfare system offers far too many incentives for folks to stay on the dole when that money should be used to help folks who have families, are in work and aren't earning much.
My mate hasn't worked in years. Has a nice tv, lives in a nice new council house, recently bought himself a new quad core computer and lives the life of Riley. He has no intention of working and why should he. Both my wife and I go out to work and in reality, he has a much better lifestyle. Paid to play video games.
Spend less on video games
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I don't know the exact details of her student loan but I believe it does not account for rent I know she may have been eligible earlier on for a bonus to cover living costs but it's far too late to change now because as I said she gets 1 more payment and it's over.
As for contribution based JSA I don't qualify I was at my previous employment for 6 month with the illusion it was going to be long term and my contributions did not meet the minimum requirements for me to claim it back. Permanent positions are hard to come buy iv had multiple part time and temp jobs over the past few years. It's not enough wage to build any form of savings with I'm forced to spend all earnings on cost of living.
As far as I know you can still claim JSA if you work under 18 hours but because my girlfriend gets £3000 a year from student loans it makes our joint claim exempt
Since unemployment the 4 games iv gotten I paid nothing for they were either gifts or paid off before unemployment
Liberty4all
Banned
what if you move out? Would you be eligible as a single?
Honestly, it doesn't sound right and they do make mistakes, I had to go down the centre in person twice because they kept losing my paperwork and consequently refusing me anything due to a failure to provide paperwork! Try getting in touch with the Citizens Advice Bureau.
waterydave
Banned
.
The system heavily favours families with a few kids to a point that if they fall into the benefit trap it's next to impossible to get out.
If you are single and young and ask for help from the system you do get next to nowt.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
If me and my partner lived in separate homes then I would qualify for both income based JSA and Housing benefit however it's not a possibility because a 22 year old british born male is not even on the radar of goverment housing agency's and outside of those I have no way to find a property to live in.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
I don't really think this is a "standard" recession and I can very well see that certain categories of jobs won't ever come back.
Those largely unskilled labour jobs of the past have either been automated out of existence or having them in the UK is far more expensive than globally outsourcing them.
As a country I think the UK will have to get used to more people being exceedingly well off at the top of the pile and the middle and lower classes getting squeezed due to the reasons mentioned above.
It's going to take some type of reverse industrial revolution (back to manual labour rather than automated or knowledge based jobs) to take things back to how they were which I honestly can't see happening, ever.
Says the person who believes wholeheartedly the government saying unemployment is 'only' 7.5%. Well played!
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
No no you must be mistaken. That is just the way things are as There Is No Alternative.
The poor already get the shaft in the UK, the changes coming in today just exacerbate the shafting.
The 'scroungers' narrative is firmly established. Anybody who is unemployed, disabled, homeless or otherwise vulnerable is made out to be a pariah. Despite the facts, the 0.9% of actual benefit fraud, the 3% of people who fail the disability tests, the 40 applicants for every available job, if you're not in work, you're a scrounger.
You can see it in this very thread. The rank animosity from the 'haves' to the 'have nots'. "They should be poor", "They're lazy", "They all have Sky and smoke and drink", etc. It's a shameful reflection of the garbage dredged up by our sensationalist right-wing press, an extrapolation from anecdote to data that doesn't match reality.
If you are subsisting solely on welfare, you are probably leading a miserable and destitute existence, and it's about to get worse.
If you are so firmly attached to the 'unemployed as scroungers' bullshit, remember that the majority of the changes negatively impact the working poor. The people that you no doubt feel are 'doing the right thing', the people that 'got on their bike', that 'pulled themselves up by their bootstraps'. They're getting fucked over harder than almost anyone else.
The post war consensus, shattered under Thatcher, has finally been killed off. The class war isn't over, but the rich fuckers are winning.
The 'scroungers' narrative is firmly established. Anybody who is unemployed, disabled, homeless or otherwise vulnerable is made out to be a pariah. Despite the facts, the 0.9% of actual benefit fraud, the 3% of people who fail the disability tests, the 40 applicants for every available job, if you're not in work, you're a scrounger.
You can see it in this very thread. The rank animosity from the 'haves' to the 'have nots'. "They should be poor", "They're lazy", "They all have Sky and smoke and drink", etc. It's a shameful reflection of the garbage dredged up by our sensationalist right-wing press, an extrapolation from anecdote to data that doesn't match reality.
If you are subsisting solely on welfare, you are probably leading a miserable and destitute existence, and it's about to get worse.
If you are so firmly attached to the 'unemployed as scroungers' bullshit, remember that the majority of the changes negatively impact the working poor. The people that you no doubt feel are 'doing the right thing', the people that 'got on their bike', that 'pulled themselves up by their bootstraps'. They're getting fucked over harder than almost anyone else.
The post war consensus, shattered under Thatcher, has finally been killed off. The class war isn't over, but the rich fuckers are winning.
CHEEZMO™;52271574 said:
Now's the good time to get into the pike business, because if this continues there will be pikes. The only downside is you might end up sampling your own product.
I really do think history has shown that the rich win class wars until they have to fear for their safety. THe poor go to violence when they are convinced things can't get any worse. We might be heading to those days.
Facism
Member
get an Iranian passport, have 7 kids and then you'll be alright.
Fucking disgusting what's happening to you, mate. Hope you find a solution.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Yeah but I know some guy who's down the pub all the time and he has 8 iPads so clearly it's all true.
So what do you reckon it is? I'm assuming you know more than everyone else?
Liberty4all
Banned
I kind of feel bad ... I didn't realize this thread would open such a can of worms. I was really just curious about the differences in welfare between different western countries.
This is an outsiders view but so far I've seen comments ranging from
1. The assumption that there are many people (if not the majority) "milking" the system, along with ridiculous homlies of boostrapping and pats on the head about trying harder
2. Scorn/the assumption from the other side that these welfare reforms are the rich/haves squeezing the poor even harder
3. Anger aimed at immigrants from native born who feel immigrants are getting benefits easier/quicker than native born
4. Baby factory comments in regards to families and/or single moms on welfare
5. Multiple mentions of imminent riots/violence in the future
I'm sure I'm missing other horrible stuff. All in all though it seems rather volatile. Is this typical of how a conversation would go at a local pub in the UK on the topic? It's like having a conversation about the economy in Germany circa 1920's ....
This is an outsiders view but so far I've seen comments ranging from
1. The assumption that there are many people (if not the majority) "milking" the system, along with ridiculous homlies of boostrapping and pats on the head about trying harder
2. Scorn/the assumption from the other side that these welfare reforms are the rich/haves squeezing the poor even harder
3. Anger aimed at immigrants from native born who feel immigrants are getting benefits easier/quicker than native born
4. Baby factory comments in regards to families and/or single moms on welfare
5. Multiple mentions of imminent riots/violence in the future
I'm sure I'm missing other horrible stuff. All in all though it seems rather volatile. Is this typical of how a conversation would go at a local pub in the UK on the topic? It's like having a conversation about the economy in Germany circa 1920's ....
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Oh come on.
No one is saying there aren't people who are on benefits that want to get off them who can't, same as no one should be saying that there aren't people on benefits who have no intention of getting off them and are gaming the system to death.
This is a great post and sums up so much of my feelings on the matter.
The portrayal of those on benefits is disgraceful. You honestly would get the impression that we're a nation of "scroungers" by the media.
It's not as bad as this thread makes out. I mean, we're still going to pubs, and we're still spending money in them, and the money we're using it still worth something. It's not like we're paying for the landlord's moonshine with 12 £50,000 notes.
I agree with Pasco_ but to an extent.
If you are legitimately on the dole and not doing the 'double' or lying to top up your lifestyle then things are gonna get worse. But they only have the fuckers who can work, have the capability to work but decide not to - to blame NOT those in full time employment struggling to pay bills.
If you are legitimately on the dole and not doing the 'double' or lying to top up your lifestyle then things are gonna get worse. But they only have the fuckers who can work, have the capability to work but decide not to - to blame NOT those in full time employment struggling to pay bills.
Psychotext
Member
CHEEZMO™;52277493 said:
Interesting.
Related to the thread, why are people parroting that the numbers employed have risen? Statistical asshattery aside (we know what they do to massage the figures, especially with work placements and courses), most of the increase in jobs has been through part time or temporary work. The last figures I saw (admittedly this was a few months back) show full time employment is still significantly down since its pre-recession levels... and that's especially significant given the increase in population levels.
Of course, it's people working in part time jobs who often need help to supplement their wages... so these changes really, really aren't helping in the current employment climate.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I am a 21 year old graduate, living with my parents. I work a part-time retail job. I live in a poor area of the country.
I got the part-time retail job by being willing to work for free for over two months in charity retail and having a sellable skill (tech knowledge). I managed to grab myself a full-time job based on the experience at my role, but for a variety of reasons it did not work out. Now I'm back at a different shop.
If you're 22 with few qualifications, unemployed and unable to get help from you parents, yes you are going to be struggling now.
The solution is to go and work in the voluntary sector for a few months, and raise some capital to move forward in your life. Take a degree for a few years. It's not debt, it's just worded like that because the media and National Union of Students are morons. Talk to employment charities. I worked with an employment charity for eight months and they have supported me through thick and thin, keeping my morale up.
In a few months I will hopefully get myself an internship, which I know now is worth taking out a loan to cover the costs of. With that internship and what I have learned in work, I will be able to get on with my life and move out.
Yes it sucks right now. It always sucks when you're poor and in some remote area. The solution is to chuck away all of that "MY LIFE SUCKS" bull and start from day one with "what can I do today that will make my CV look better?"
For the record, I know folks who live off benefits. It's a dirty life. You buy a new TV but don't clean your house or buy new clothes.
EDIT: Fun fact for fellow History grads - there has been political arguments in British towns about "deserving" and "undeserving" poor people (in regards to alms/aid/benefits) for almost the entire history of urban Britain. That's c. 1000 years!
I got the part-time retail job by being willing to work for free for over two months in charity retail and having a sellable skill (tech knowledge). I managed to grab myself a full-time job based on the experience at my role, but for a variety of reasons it did not work out. Now I'm back at a different shop.
If you're 22 with few qualifications, unemployed and unable to get help from you parents, yes you are going to be struggling now.
The solution is to go and work in the voluntary sector for a few months, and raise some capital to move forward in your life. Take a degree for a few years. It's not debt, it's just worded like that because the media and National Union of Students are morons. Talk to employment charities. I worked with an employment charity for eight months and they have supported me through thick and thin, keeping my morale up.
In a few months I will hopefully get myself an internship, which I know now is worth taking out a loan to cover the costs of. With that internship and what I have learned in work, I will be able to get on with my life and move out.
Yes it sucks right now. It always sucks when you're poor and in some remote area. The solution is to chuck away all of that "MY LIFE SUCKS" bull and start from day one with "what can I do today that will make my CV look better?"
For the record, I know folks who live off benefits. It's a dirty life. You buy a new TV but don't clean your house or buy new clothes.
EDIT: Fun fact for fellow History grads - there has been political arguments in British towns about "deserving" and "undeserving" poor people (in regards to alms/aid/benefits) for almost the entire history of urban Britain. That's c. 1000 years!
Ha! 'Everyone else'. You're precious.
Bear in mind your unemployment figure stated is only the people claiming unemployment benefits; it does not include people on sanctions (which there are targets for now, but if you're a moron who believes IDS then they don't exist). Citizens Advice states the amount of sanctions being issued is rising at an alarming rate (45% increase for the last recorded quarter, yikes!) with JSA only rising 1% overall.
An estimated 900,000 people have been moved onto Incapacity Benefits (from Sheffield Hallam University's research) and that was April last year. Those figures have most likely risen.
And then there are people who just don't claim because of the stress of it all. A difficult figure to estimate, but no doubt significant.
"B-but the media..."
It is a hot button topic for sure. There are elements of truth in each side's position - the welfare system is undoubtedly milked by a subset of the population that has little or no intention of working. It's also brutally unfair to some who need it or just want to find work. Basically it satisfies no one (except the successful exploiters) and gives everyone an opportunity to get nice and worked up.
We won't go full Hitler though, we just like to moan a lot.
cyberheater
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I know of whole communities that are basically on the dole and are more then happy to stay like that. Folks that have told me over and over again that it's simply not worth their time to work. That they'd have to earn 25k a year or more just to break even.
You sound like someone who understands the benefit of work to yourself and your family. I was made redundant 4 years ago and it took me 3 months to get work. That was the first time I've been out of work my whole working life.
I'm not a ignoramus. I'm just sick of seeing scum who have no intention of working being a leech on our society and teaching their kids to do the same.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I stopped claiming JSA when I was on a fifteen hour a week contract due to not wanting to feel like cattle at JSA signing on sessions. This lost me about £5 a week, but infinitely improved my temperament.
EDIT: Could someone please show me a direct example of someone living the life of a king on the dole? A study? All these anecdotal examples of swell living are somewhat in contrast to what I'm seeing looking out of my window onto my local estate.
I think this is a silly argument, anyway. If someone's getting more money than they're due, then in turn there is someone who is getting less. That means money should be redistributed (for example, IMO the full JSA rate should be given to all 18 year olds and up, not just 25 year olds up).
I wonder why Ed Milliband isn't holding the government to account daily over what appears to be a grave injustice?
Maybe they don't get the figures or something
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