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[APZonerunner]

Wasn't his major problem with the director of the first set of episodes that were shot?

Basically. He highlighted that the mid-level staff (eg Director) were abusing low level staff (runners etc) early on. The first block was filmed by a guy who seemed to not really 'get' the show - he was responsible for how things like the Slitheen farting and wheelie bin were played on screen in a really slapstick manner, for instance, very differently to the original scripts which play it all a lot more straight. It's why those three episodes are tonally different, I think - he thought he was making a low rent CBBC show, I think. He was never invited back.

It sounds like Eccleston complained to Collinson about the issues and Collinson failed to put his foot down mainly because he was in a panic that everything in that first block was going wrong.

That said, Eccleston is just a no-nonsense Northerner. He just hates all the corporate bullshit, which now surrounds Who massively thanks to it being a flagship show. Doesn't sound like he'd enjoy the Producer musical chairs playing, staff-erasing Moffat regime much better.

 

[Patryn]

Basically. He highlighted that the mid-level staff (eg Director) were abusing low level staff (runners etc) early on. The first block was filmed by a guy who seemed to not really 'get' the show - he was responsible for how things like the Slitheen farting and wheelie bin were played on screen in a really slapstick manner, for instance, very differently to the original scripts which play it all a lot more straight. It's why those three episodes are tonally different, I think - he thought he was making a low rent CBBC show, I think. He was never invited back.

It sounds like Eccleston complained to Collinson about the issues and Collinson failed to put his foot down mainly because he was in a panic that everything in that first block was going wrong.

That said, Eccleston is just a no-nonsense Northerner. He just hates all the corporate bullshit, which now surrounds Who massively thanks to it being a flagship show. Doesn't sound like he'd enjoy the Producer musical chairs playing, staff-erasing Moffat regime much better.

If he was responsible for THAT stuff, then I'm really happy he never came back. I'm getting my fiance into the show, and we've been watching basically all of Eleven's run, but I want to show her Ten's stuff to get ready for the 50th Anniversary special. To get there, I need to show her Nine's stuff, and I'm already prepping her by saying that the fourth and fifth episode can get really stupid, but hang in there, and it gets better.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Aaaalways skip the Slitheen episodes. So, so bad. Every other episode is pretty much great though.

 

[Patryn]

Aaaalways skip the Slitheen episodes. So, so bad. Every other episode is pretty much great though.

Unfortunately, I think you kind of need it for Harriet Jones and the Rose development stuff.

But I could practically lose every single Slitheen scene. Seriously: Who thought that a monster with a freaking ZIPPER on their forehead was a good idea?

 

[8bit]

That's the Keith Boak directed stuff, it's not so good. I was given 'Rose' early by a friend and as a long time fan of the series expected it to crash and burn by the end of season 1 but it was thankfully not indicative of the overall feel.

 

[APZonerunner]

If you read the original scripts (available in book form), the farting and the bin both are portrayed really differently, but Boak decided to play them for slapstick value. RTD has said he didn't like the way it was done, but was too stressed/nervous/green with the whole show at that point and so never put his foot down.

Here's the original script, which tonally feels very different from the final scene, which has the bin bloody burping.

MICKEY goes to walk off, takes his hands off the bin - and the plastic stretches, like melted cheese. He's stuck to the bin. He's horrified, wails, lifts his hands up further - the elastic strands of grey wheely-bin plastic stretching out, pulling taut.

And it snaps back! He's jerked towards the bin.

Scared now, Mickey pulls back again, really hard, struggling, sweating, the plastic stretching out...

And this time, it snaps back hard. Mickey's pulled head-first into the bin. He cries out - a muffled scream - then there's another heave. Mickey's legs are swallowed inside, and the lid swings up, slams shut, whap!

And all is calm. Pull back, gently; suburbia restored.

Same for the Slitheen, I think - I don't think they're a bad race in concept, and the farting as a clue is a fair plot point - but what began as a few scattered moments in the script became constant dubbed in royalty free fart noises all through both episodes, because the director simply didn't bloody get what Doctor Who was. Or rather, he thought it was the cheesy, childish shit-fest that public opinion would've led you to believe it was before the reboot. Ruined. The second episode of that two parter is still pretty great, though, and the woman who plays Margaret puts in a hell of a performance.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Deadpan and serious Doctor Who is not, but there's a way to do it. It felt exactly like a CBBC show to be honest, that's a good description of it. I can't really think of an equivalent in any later episodes, which is good. I can imagine Eccleston in his Northern accent yelling at the guy after he says "It'll be reaaaallly funny c'mon Chris"

EDIT: Maybe this sort of thing? The skull popping out was cool, but then it does the Pacman jaws... yikes.

 

[Exterminieren]

Aaaalways skip the Slitheen episodes. So, so bad. Every other episode is pretty much great though.

Hell no. Look past the terrible direction, and Aliens of London and World War III are some of RTD's best scripts.

 

[Petrichor]

If he was responsible for THAT stuff, then I'm really happy he never came back. I'm getting my fiance into the show, and we've been watching basically all of Eleven's run, but I want to show her Ten's stuff to get ready for the 50th Anniversary special. To get there, I need to show her Nine's stuff, and I'm already prepping her by saying that the third and fourth episode can get really stupid, but hang in there, and it gets better.

Episodes 2,4,5 and 7 were pretty horrible in that first series - it's the second worst series for me since the revival (series 2 holding the overall crown - only episodes worth a damn was The Girl in the Fireplace and the impossible planet), series 3 had its fair share of stinkers but it also had utopia, blink and human nature, which offsets the artlessness of the rest of it somewhat.

I'm surprised to see any defence of the slitheen episodes - they were pretty untenably bad if I remember correctly, isn't the problem solved by blowing everything up and hiding in a doorway? That's really not what I want from doctor who at all.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Hell no. Look past the terrible direction, and Aliens of London and World War III are some of RTD's best scripts.

We'll have to agree to disagree as per usual Extermy.

 

[Exterminieren]

We'll have to agree to disagree as per usual Extermy.

That's fair.

That's the main reason I dislike Boak's work, though. Rose was OK but boilerplate, but AoL/WWIII are fantastic, witty, subversive scripts, and no one wants to know because of how badly the direction fucks it all up.

 

[APZonerunner]

Episodes 2,4,5 and 7 were pretty horrible in that first series - it's the second worst series for me since the revival (series 2 holding the overall crown - only episodes worth a damn was The Girl in the Fireplace and the impossible planet), series 3 had its fair share of stinkers but it also had utopia, blink and human nature, which offsets the artlessness of the rest of it somewhat.

I'm surprised to see any defence of the slitheen episodes - they were pretty untenably bad if I remember correctly, isn't the problem solved by blowing everything up and hiding in a doorway? That's really not what I want from doctor who at all.

I think episode 2's alright. It's aged poorly due to the CGI and whatnot, but the overall message of that episode is pretty good, I think. National Trust shifting continents! I'd agree Series 2 is probably pretty weak, but I rather like Tooth & Claw and School Reunion in series 2, as well. It's not the god tier of The Impossible Planet (still one of my favourite Who episodes ever) and Fireplace, but those two are fine, and Doomsday is still a very good finale.

I think the thing that's brave about part two of the Slitheen episode is that it traps the Doctor in one room. There's him bluffing with blowing up the bottle of the whiskey (and the great dialogue about what direction you're supposed to pass it in) and some good human drama stuff with Jackie & Rose. That stuff is RTD's ultimate strength, and the episode is let down on his ultimate weakness; actually resolving the situations he puts characters in to get this dialogue.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

That's fair.

That's the main reason I dislike Boak's work, though. Rose was OK but boilerplate, but AoL/WWIII are fantastic, witty, subversive scripts, and no one wants to know because of how badly the direction fucks it all up.

I'll be perfectly honest I haven't watched them in yeaaars. I skipped them on my S1 rewatch a couple weeks ago sheerly because of the memory of all gross Slitheen stuff. Maybe I should give them a second chance.

 

[Patryn]

I think episode 2's alright. It's aged poorly due to the CGI and whatnot, but the overall message of that episode is pretty good, I think. National Trust shifting continents! I'd agree Series 2 is probably pretty weak, but I rather like Tooth & Claw and School Reunion in series 2, as well. It's not the god tier of The Impossible Planet (still one of my favourite Who episodes ever) and Fireplace, but those two are fine, and Doomsday is still a very good finale.

I think the thing that's brave about part two of the Slitheen episode is that it traps the Doctor in one room. There's him bluffing with blowing up the bottle of the whiskey (and the great dialogue about what direction you're supposed to pass it in) and some good human drama stuff with Jackie & Rose. That stuff is RTD's ultimate strength, and the episode is let down on his ultimate weakness; actually resolving the situations he puts characters in to get this dialogue.

You know, looking at the low points of Series 1 and 2, it's kind of amazing: For as popular as Rose was, she's in a hell of a lot of klunker episodes.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

You know, looking at the low points of Series 1 and 2, it's kind of amazing: For as popular as Rose was, she's in a hell of a lot of klunker episodes.

New Earth was a really bad debut episode considering how popular Tennant's run was. Thank god he had Christmas Invasion.

 

[Petrichor]

You know, looking at the low points of Series 1 and 2, it's kind of amazing: For as popular as Rose was, she's in a hell of a lot of klunker episodes.

Considering Donna was only in one run and there wasn't really a bad episode in series 4, (not that it's my favourite, but it's consistently competent) - it surprises me that she isn't generally heralded as the most popular RTD-era companion rather than rose, who as you said was in some horrible episodes (and became pretty unbearable in her second year)

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Weird thing I noticed between watching S1 & S4; Billie Piper did something to her face. I don't know if it was collagen or what, but it's like her face is hardly moving when she speaks in S4.

 

[Exterminieren]

I really like The End of the World, and I reckon it's been a hell of a lot more influential than it's been credited as. Its fingerprints are all over a lot of episodes since, including tomorrow's ep.

New Earth was a bit of a letdown, but then Gridlock came along and blew the doors off. Still the best New Who episode, that.

Considering Donna was only in one run and there wasn't really a bad episode in series 4, (not that it's my favourite, but it's consistently competent) - it surprises me that she isn't generally heralded as the most popular RTD-era companion rather than rose, who as you said was in some horrible episodes (and became pretty unbearable in her second year)

Donna suffered by having to share, I think. I mean, counting cameos and River, Donna had about three episodes to herself.
Also, Rose came first and had the series' arc basically devoted to her, and she hadn't even been a regular for two years by that point.

 

[APZonerunner]

She'd just had her teeth reset during Series 4, I think. Getting rid of gaps or whatever. You can hear it during Turn Left, she can barely do the Rose accent - which isn't her natural accent; she's actually posh.

 

[Petrichor]

I really like The End of the World, and I reckon it's been a hell of a lot more influential than it's been credited as. Its fingerprints are all over a lot of episodes since, including tomorrow's ep.

New Earth was a bit of a letdown, but then Gridlock came along and blew the doors off. Still the best New Who episode, that.

Not my favourite but its the best RTD script (it is his isn't it?) - maybe tied with Smith and Jones.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I do really like Gridlock. Forgot how good it was. Also forgot how much the Doctor is openly a prick to Martha for the first few episodes.

 

[Exterminieren]

I do really like Gridlock. Forgot how good it was. Also forgot how much the Doctor is openly a prick to Martha for the first few episodes.

That's part of why it's good, but the worldbuilding, the characters, the twist of darkness at the end... Christ, it's so good. Nowhere near as loved as it should be, for me.

 

[Patryn]

I do really like Gridlock. Forgot how good it was. Also forgot how much the Doctor is openly a prick to Martha for the first few episodes.

That reminds me of something I've always kind of wondered, but have never bothered to actually look up: Why was Martha treated the way she was? Was she always supposed to be a one-series companion? I just get the sense that she wasn't treated the greatest.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

What Moffat would have done with 10 and Amy if Tennant had lasted an extra year.

 

[Petrichor]

So as river song is returning to the series in episode 8 and will probably have some presence in the 50th anniversary episode - where do we think it'll be in terms of her timeline?

She only seems to know the doctor's name at the very end of her timeline (silence in the library / forest of the dead) which would point to the events of the 50th anniversary occurring fairly late from her perspective, but one thing that struck me on a recent rewatch of series 5 is that in the angels episode she has pictures of all of the doctor's faces in her diary - so maybe the events actually occur a lot earlier for her.

Chronologically, from her perspective: (I'm delineating it because I know some people struggle with the timeline a bit)

1) Born in Demon's Run (AGMGTW)
2) Taken to an orphanage in 1960's America and brainwashed (TIA/DOTM)
3) Grows up alongside Amy and Rory, then regenerates in Hitler's office and is deprogrammed (LKH)
4) Studies at Lunar University, but is then kidnapped by the silence (Closing Time)
5) Kills the doctor but doesn't but does at lake silencio (TWORS, TIA/DOTM) and ends up in prison for it.
6) Reveals her identity to the doctor at Demon's Run (AGMGTW)
7) Watches the Doctor's death at lake silencio (TIA / DOTM)
8) Helps the doctor save the universe at stonehenge (TPO/TBB)
9) Meets up with the doctor at the crash of the byzantium (TOA/FAS)
10) Climbs out of the byzantium and meets up with Amy and Rory, telling them that the doctor isn't dead (TWORS)
11) Watched her parents "die" in Manhattan (TATM)
12) Meets the tenth doctor in the library and "dies"

If the events of the 50th anniversary happen between 9 and 10 from her perspective, it's going to get a whole lot more complicated...again. It'll probably just be between 11 and 12 though for the sake of clarity.

 

[Patryn]

What Moffat would have done with 10 and Amy if Tennant had lasted an extra year.

That would have been cool, and also allowed River to clock some more time with Ten. Remember that she seemed surprised that Ten didn't recognize her, which would seem to indicate that she had at least SOME adventures with him as Ten, right?

 

[Petrichor]

That would have been cool, and also allowed River to clock some more time with Ten. Remember that she seemed surprised that Ten didn't recognize her, which would seem to indicate that she had at least SOME adventures with him as Ten, right?

Will probably happen at some point in the 50th I'd wager.

 

[Patryn]

Will probably happen at some point in the 50th I'd wager.

I hope so.

 

[User 100115]

Will probably happen at some point in the 50th I'd wager.

That's what I am wishing, but the fact that Billie Piper is along for the ride doesn't make me too hopeful that it will actually come about. Ten with Rose was way before the Library, after all, and if it's 10.5 and not Ten, then it wouldn't matter anyhow

 

[Petrichor]

That's what I am wishing, but the fact that Billie Piper is along for the ride doesn't make me too hopeful that it will actually come about. Ten with Rose was way before the Library, after all, and if it's 10.5 and not Ten, then it wouldn't matter anyhow

If 10 and 11 meet up there has to be some kind of memory wipe involved anyway doesn't there - otherwise why would 11 be surprised at his new face, or not recognise clara in the snowmen? Assuming of course that it isn't doctor-donna and rose from the alternate dimension (in which case how did they get their hands on a TARDIS? I think this option is unlikely - Moffat will relish the challenge of reconciling all of the timeline problems)

 

[Ein Bear]

What Moffat would have done with 10 and Amy if Tennant had lasted an extra year.

Aww man, I wish this would have happened. Tennant really deserved a better send off than The End of Time, which is one of the worst things RTD wrote in his entire run.

 

[PalaceBrother]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Doctor increased the second in command's "obedience" in order to save the day in last week's episode? Seems a bit too on the nose for the type of character they portray him as.

Not a big deal, but I found it a bit incongruous.

 

[User 100115]

If 10 and 11 meet up there has to be some kind of memory wipe involved anyway doesn't there - otherwise why would 11 be surprised at his new face, or not recognise clara in the snowmen? Assuming of course that it isn't doctor-donna and rose from the alternate dimension (in which case how did they get their hands on a TARDIS? I think this option is unlikely - Moffat will relish the challenge of reconciling all of the timeline paradoxes)

Yeah, perhaps you are right, but I don't think it would be...I dunno, right? To have Ten meet River twice without recognizing her. The only real way it would work (for me) would be for the meeting to take place after the library, so Ten would know who she is.

Does anyone else find it odd that the Doctor increased the second in command's "obedience" in order to save the day in last week's episode? Seems a bit too on the nose for the type of character they portray him as.

Not a big deal, but I found it a bit incongruous.

I thought he increased 'consience', not obedience. Did I get it wrong?

 

[Petrichor]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Doctor increased the second in command's "obedience" in order to save the day in last week's episode? Seems a bit too on the nose for the type of character they portray him as.

Not a big deal, but I found it a bit incongruous.

I was initially confused as to how the doctor even knew who to hack - would have made more sense for him to do a universal alteration to all staff members imo.

 

[FillerB]

I thought he increased 'consience', not obedience. Did I get it wrong?

It's obedience.

I was initially confused as to how the doctor even knew who to hack - would have made more sense for him to do a universal alteration to all staff members imo.

http://i2.minus.com/iNLWk490FmYZQ.jpg

There seems to be a small biography blurb under the photograph. I'm guessing it says that he is the second in command or something.

 

[User 100115]

It's obedience.



http://i2.minus.com/iNLWk490FmYZQ.jpg

There seems to be a small biography blurb under the photograph. I'm guessing it says that he is the second in command or something.

I need to learn to read apparently, that changes the whole dynamic of the scene

 

[Petrichor]

It's obedience.



http://i2.minus.com/iNLWk490FmYZQ.jpg

There seems to be a small biography blurb under the photograph. I'm guessing it says that he is the second in command or something.

Ah I see - it's also plausible that he stated his position on his social networking site.

There were so many neat touches and ideas in that episode, I just wish they'd embellished the horror aspects and jettisoned the campy spoonheads for something a little more macabre.

 

[FillerB]

There were so many neat touches and ideas in that episode, I just wish they'd embellished the horror aspects and jettisoned the campy spoonheads for something a little more macabre.

Doctor Who in a nutshell.

 

[PalaceBrother]

Ah I see - it's also plausible that he stated his position on his social networking site.

There were so many neat touches and ideas in that episode, I just wish they'd embellished the horror aspects and jettisoned the campy spoonheads for something a little more macabre.

Ha!

Cannot unsee now.

 

[infiniteloop]

What Moffat would have done with 10 and Amy if Tennant had lasted an extra year.

sounds pretty cool

 

[APZonerunner]

That would have been cool, and also allowed River to clock some more time with Ten. Remember that she seemed surprised that Ten didn't recognize her, which would seem to indicate that she had at least SOME adventures with him as Ten, right?

Will probably happen at some point in the 50th I'd wager.

I doubt the 50th (I just don't think there'll be real space for her, really) but Moffat outright said that in his mind she meets the Tenth Doctor at least two more times between the Library and when he regenerates, when he was travelling alone - and that he fully expects them to be told by Big Finish or something later on.

 

[mclem]

Wall of text incoming - here's what I'd say is significant:

(snipped excellent list)

I think if we're talking about the Doctor Who *property* - rather than just TV Doctor Who - it's worth throwing in Big Finish, and their work to secure original Doctors and Companions for their audio plays - including their impressive rebuilding of the Sixth Doctor's character to an extent that many people regard Big Finish Six as one of the best Doctors now.

 

[mclem]

7) Watches the Doctor's death at lake silencio (TIA / DOTM)
8) Helps the doctor save the universe at stonehenge (TPO/TBB)

I'm trying to work out if these two *can* happen that way around - in a wibbly wobbly timey wimey way. The events at Stonehenge happen *because* the Doctor is famous, but he 'dies' in #7.

Does anyone else find it odd that the Doctor increased the second in command's "obedience" in order to save the day in last week's episode? Seems a bit too on the nose for the type of character they portray him as.

Not a big deal, but I found it a bit incongruous.

It feels like the sort of thing Seven would do. And it did lead to *everyone* being released. And it couldn't help but make me think of Syndicate!

Cannot unsee now.

That's their official in-universe name. Well, not quite, the official name is 'mobile wifi unit', but they have been given the nickname 'spoonheads' in promotional material and one of the guys in the Shard uses the term in a throwaway comment - much to Celia Imrie's annoyance.

 

[User 100115]

I'm trying to work out if these two *can* happen that way around - in a wibbly wobbly timey wimey way. The events at Stonehenge happen *because* the Doctor is famous, but he 'dies' in #7.

Well, it works because his timeline is moving forward; her's is moving backward. His 'death' hadn't happened yet at that point in the greater scheme of things.

 

[Petrichor]

I'm trying to work out if these two *can* happen that way around - in a wibbly wobbly timey wimey way. The events at Stonehenge happen *because* the Doctor is famous, but he 'dies' in #7.

There's universal chronology and river chronology - this is the order in which it happens from river's perspective, but not from the perspective of the doctor.

 

[The Real Abed]

Ha!

Cannot unsee now.

That's the nickname everyone gives them. It's mentioned early in the episode.

My god, Eccleston looks old now. I'm sad that things are so bad between them. I loved Eccleston. He really captured the anger and fury of a man who had just watched his home planet and entire race get destroyed. Dalek was the best episode of season 1. I'd love to see them show the regeneration from 8 to 9 somehow. Anyhow.

 

[Exterminieren]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Doctor increased the second in command's "obedience" in order to save the day in last week's episode? Seems a bit too on the nose for the type of character they portray him as.

Not a big deal, but I found it a bit incongruous.

Utilising the technology of the villains is Who-Resolution 101.

Uploading Ms. Kizlet and utilising her henchman's obedience to her and the tech behind it was a pretty elegant solution, I thought.

 

[Petrichor]

Utilising the technology of the villains is Who-Resolution 101.

Uploading Ms. Kizlet and utilising her henchman's obedience to her and the tech behind it was a pretty elegant solution, I thought.

Likewise - my favourite resolution since "you should kill us all on sight" actually.

 

[mclem]

Well, it works because his timeline is moving forward; her's is moving backward. His 'death' hadn't happened yet at that point in the greater scheme of things.

Except some of the races who manufactured the trap had access to time travel - so if they know where and how the Doctor died - due to it being a fixed point - they know that they don't need to trap him, since he died before he could cause the catastrophe.

My head *really* hurts. I think we have to go with the 'current events can change the past if it's necessary' philosophy.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

That reminds me of something I've always kind of wondered, but have never bothered to actually look up: Why was Martha treated the way she was? Was she always supposed to be a one-series companion? I just get the sense that she wasn't treated the greatest.

Martha saved his life in the S3E1. He promised her one trip, and one trip only in the Tardis. It sort of escalated from there. She fell in love with him, and realized he'd never return it, so promptly said "Fuck that" at the end of S3 and went off to be with her family.