Britian -Sweeping changes to "the dole" take effect

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Does that mean they're... dolin'?

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Nah, I'm happy with our little 5 million population. Plus if Scotland and the north was gone what would the mail moan about?

Gotta think about Dacre man..
 
They'd still have FORRINERS and BARMY BRUSSELS and PC GONE MAD and MUSLIMS.

Plus I bet they haven't run out of articles to write about Hitler yet.

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CHEEZMO™;52914627 said:
Annexe everything north of Derby pls.
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That would leave us normal people in London surrounded by an ocean of Home counties extremists. Thanks a fucking bunch.

It would be a Dickensian nightmare, slums, workhouses and I pity the poor old foxes.
 
PJV3 said:
That would leave us normal people in London surrounded by an ocean of Home counties extremists. Thanks a fucking bunch.

It would be a Dickensian nightmare, slums, workhouses and I pity the poor old foxes.
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Getting close to that just now anyway.

The right thinks Dickens wasn't a warning but something to aspire to.
 
The Spectator leader for this week is fantastic too, I can't find it online at then moment though.

Why is every other party so quiet about welfare reform though?
 
PJV3 said:
"people believe 27% of benefits are claimed fraudulently"

I cant fucking believe how dense people are.
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It makes sense once you look at how much of the media's coverage of benefits stories is negative. Go to the Daily Heil site and use their search function, keyword "benefits".
 
PJV3 said:
"people believe 27% of benefits are claimed fraudulently"

I cant fucking believe how dense people are.
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Pfft Facts have no place in welfare debate.

Anyone on benefits is personally robbing you and your children of money. Spending it on sky sports, booze and drugs.

edit OH AND I FORGOT KILLING THEIR CHILDREN.
 
CHEEZMO™;52925442 said:
It makes sense once you look at how much of the media's coverage of benefits stories is negative. Go to the Daily Heil site and use their search function, keyword "benefits".
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Yup. Even ridiculous, easily disproved assertions can worm their way into someone's worldview when they're constantly repeated by authority figures.

That's why people have pretty much been trained not to be politically active in the western world for the past century or so.
 
PJV3 said:
"people believe 27% of benefits are claimed fraudulently"

I cant fucking believe how dense people are.
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Honestly, I would have expected that to be higher.

It's shameful how the media have manipulated the country into believing their shite.
 
CHEEZMO™;52910871 said:
Inform and agitate. Hear people saying stupid shit or repeating misinformation? Give them some facts. Spread the truth about what's going on. Try and convince people to stop listening to this country's awful media machine, but do it nicely - it's easier to con someone than it is to convince them they've been conned.

Agitprop is great for this sort of thing. When talking about bad shit that happens try and get the person to put themselves into the affected person's position.

Combat Liberalism



You can ignore the Commie stuff if you wish but the message is sound.
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Liberals bug the shit out of me sometimes, but they are kind of necessary if you want any meaningful reform to the system. They're probably the best hope we have now after world politics has shifted so hard to the right in recent years. MLK was a liberal, not a revolutionary, and he made substantial progress possible for blacks by playing to the system (while politicians). The New Deal wouldn't have been possible if FDR only played to the radical left. He had to play inside the system, and it paid out in spades for the American working class. I could go on all day, but hopefully you get my point.
 
Salvadora said:
Honestly, I would have expected that to be higher.

It's shameful how the media have manipulated the country into believing their shite.
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Exaggerating the figures X27 is pretty amazing to me, I didn't realise people are that deluded. I thought they hated benefits, but this is just stupid.

You can't combat these people's beliefs, because it's beyond reason.
 
PJV3 said:
Exaggerating the figures X27 is pretty amazing to me, I didn't realise people are that deluded. I thought they hated benefits, but this is just stupid.
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People believe whatever The Mail or the Sun tells them, when I realised this the country started to make a whole lot more sense.

They have people voting against their own interests, so believing bullshit is easy.
 
Acorn said:
People believe whatever The Mail or the Sun tells them, when I realised this the country started to make a whole lot more sense.

They have people voting against their own interests, so believing bullshit is easy.
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It has to be something else, I think people are so disconnected from reality, Facebook, 1000 tv channels and Celeb culture etc, that they haven't got a fucking clue what's going on outside their own bubble.

The right wing press don't like the welfare system, but they don't exaggerate the problem by unrealistic amounts like this. Zomgbbqftw would be just as surprised I think, and he's a critic of the system.
 
Well it's not like they do anything factual like say "x% of Y are lying bastards", cause you can prove that's bullshit. It's all about only reporting negative things to influence the public's perception of what they think things are like. Add in a sprinkling of innuendo and you're set.
 
Oop, just found the spectator leader online here.

For the past few weeks Ed Miliband has repeated the words ‘bedroom tax’ ad nauseum. The average voter may think that such a thing exists. His obsession makes little sense without historic context. The last time a Labour opposition succeeded in attaching the word ‘tax’ to something which a Conservative government preferred to call something else was in 1990 when the Community Charge became almost universally known as the Poll Tax. Labour’s strategy then, depicting the Conservatives as taking sadistic pleasure in trampling upon the poor and weak, had a devastating effect.

In those days, Labour posed as the party of compassion — and portrayed the Tories as economic obsessives who would crush the poor through the blackness of their hearts. The next 13 years saw Labour forfeit any claim to stand up for the poorest. It was generous with benefits, but this simply served to condemn a generation to welfare dependency. Most of the increased employment in the boom years was accounted for by extra immigration. Under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, at no point were fewer than five million working-age people on out-of-work benefits. This was not just a waste of money, but a criminal waste of human potential.

Iain Duncan Smith returned to frontline politics with only one objective: to end this outrage. He infuriates many on the left because he is impossible to caricature as a heartless cutter. Labour has now relinquished any claim to welfare reform and once again defines compassion by the size of the benefits cheque. There are hundreds of communities in Britain that can testify to the damage inflicted by this shallow, materialistic approach. This is perhaps why the IDS agenda carries remarkable public support, which infuriates the left even more. Newspapers are blamed for somehow indoctrinating the masses (even though most people don’t read them any more).

The reverse is true: you need to see the world through the lens of the Guardian not to grasp how the welfare system is harming the very people it is supposed to help. The coalition government’s basic proposal — that a family on benefits should not receive more than the average working family — is an easily understood and widely accepted idea. It may cause outrage in Islington, but certainly not in Ilford. The feeling in the council estates is, if anything, stronger and more venomous. No self-respecting MP would use the word ‘scrounger’, for example, but polls show two in five think that it applies to at least half of welfare claimants.

When invited to attend a Work Capability Assessment — a medical examination to see whether claimants qualify for Employment Support Allowance, the successor to Incapacity Benefit — more than a third (878,000 people in total) decided to stop claiming the benefit altogether. More than half of those who did submit for assessment were judged to be fit for work. Among them were claimants who had ruled themselves as unfit for work on account of acne or blisters. It is possible to see how such people can be described as ‘scroungers’. But the term is uncharitable and it is unforgivable for a politician, however hungry for votes, to use such terms.

George Osborne has joined the debate with a little too much enthusiasm. He senses, correctly, that Labour has ended up on the wrong side of the debate — but the Tory posters depicting ‘shirkers’ are deplorable. If the British government paves the way to welfare dependency, is it any wonder so many millions walk down that road? There is nothing wrong with the British national character, and it ought to be beneath any politician even to hint otherwise. As Iain Duncan Smith has made it clear throughout, the blame lies not with the people who followed the government-created incentives, but with the architects of the system.

Britain has become Europe’s capital for children living in workless and lone-parent households. Given that the family is the single most effective provider of health, wealth and education, the results of this social breakdown are all too easy to predict. The effect will be compounded by a state school system that still tends to corral, rather than educate, the poor while allowing the pushy middle classes to get their children a better bargain. And those who fail to finish school then face competition from the world’s workers when looking for jobs. It is a formula for social decay, and the blame lies not with the people but with the government.

The Conservatives are right to reform welfare, and right to want to become the new workers’ party. But this message would be more plausible if the Chancellor actually cut taxes for the poor. Raising the tax threshold is worth a mere £3.26 a week, a sum easily eaten up by the inflation he tolerates. The Tories can only become the workers’ champion by taking measures to help workers, not just by inflicting pain on non-workers. The Chancellor should be careful before seeking to insert himself into the debate and join those drawing a dividing line.

This week, the government has kept public opinion on its side. But it is worrying that Mr Duncan Smith seems almost alone in being able to strike the right tone and convey the sense of mission. The Chancellor ought to learn from him. The word ‘shirker’ has no place in the vocabulary of the modern Conservative party. Welfare spending is to rise every year of the parliament. Mr Duncan Smith has always made it clear that his main objective is to save lives, not save money. If welfare reform is to stand a chance of success, his colleagues must remember that message too.
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I've bolded some bits that I think you guys might like :D

Joking aside though, I think the stuff about IDS is totally true. People caricature him because it's easy to do, but it really has little basis in reality. There are plenty on the Tory party that would happily cut benefits either because they think the system is too generous or because it would help them maintain a majority - but IDS isn't one of them. After being knifed as Tory leader, he worked at a think tank dealing with the welfare system, and when he returned to front line politics, did so on the priviso that he and he would be minister for DWP. I've been following him for quite some years now (by which I mean 'reading the Spectator') and they have interviews with him (and most front bench Tories, and some of the other oiks too) and the sense that he really does care about this issue comes through in every single one. Especially that of the line above - "Mr Duncan Smith has always made it clear that his main objective is to save lives, not save money."
 
CyclopsRock said:
Oop, just found the spectator leader online here.



I've bolded some bits that I think you guys might like :D

Joking aside though, I think the stuff about IDS is totally true. People caricature him because it's easy to do, but it really has little basis in reality. There are plenty on the Tory party that would happily cut benefits either because they think the system is too generous or because it would help them maintain a majority - but IDS isn't one of them. After being knifed as Tory leader, he worked at a think tank dealing with the welfare system, and when he returned to front line politics, did so on the priviso that he and he would be minister for DWP. I've been following him for quite some years now (by which I mean 'reading the Spectator') and they have interviews with him (and most front bench Tories, and some of the other oiks too) and the sense that he really does care about this issue comes through in every single one. Especially that of the line above - "Mr Duncan Smith has always made it clear that his main objective is to save lives, not save money."
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Except his welfare reforms are literally killing people through stress. The ATOS tests mentioned in the leader are fucking VILE and done under his watch. For every one 'acne' sufferer there's probably ten legitimately disabled people forced off of benefit because they had the test on a good day, or because the tests are horrendous for people with mental conditions.

http://www.channel4.com/news/disability-testing-system-causes-misery-and-hardship
 
killer_clank said:
Except his welfare reforms are literally killing people through stress. The ATOS tests mentioned in the leader are fucking VILE and done under his watch. For every one 'acne' sufferer there's probably ten legitimately disabled people forced off of benefit because they had the test on a good day, or because the tests are horrendous for people with mental conditions.

http://www.channel4.com/news/disability-testing-system-causes-misery-and-hardship
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Indeedy, and I think changes should be made to ensure that the tests are more accurate (including, as you say, making sure that one good day isn't enough to make a decision). Which will cost more, and that's fine - it's worth it to ensure the right result. But I don't think that invalidates the actual policy involved. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with testing the health of those on unemployment benefits, because it's entirely possible to be both disabled and entirely capable of working.
 
killer_clank said:
Except his welfare reforms are literally killing people through stress. The ATOS tests mentioned in the leader are fucking VILE and done under his watch. For every one 'acne' sufferer there's probably ten legitimately disabled people forced off of benefit because they had the test on a good day, or because the tests are horrendous for people with mental conditions.

http://www.channel4.com/news/disability-testing-system-causes-misery-and-hardship
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A family friend of ours declared "fit for work" got back from a stay in hospital on friday after collapsing and passing out. They found multiple blood clots in her neck, we'll get full results on monday but presumably she had a stroke.
 
When asked if he could live on £53 a week, in response to a question posed by a working benefits claimant, Mr Duncan Smith said: "If I had to I would."
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How is this even remotely possible?

In Australia my rent per week is three times that.
 
paile said:
How is this even remotely possible?

In Australia my rent per week is three times that.
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I think IDS, who has had his entire life funded by the state and now lives in a 2 million-pound mansion that belongs to the father of the heiress he married, knows more than you about living by hard means and boostrappin', sunshine.
 
IDS is a heartless cunt, he has no clue what it's like to live on benefits without mummy and daddy's support. He doesn't care that people are committing suicide over his reforms or that people that game the system will continue to do so whilst ordinary people get screwed out of their (pitiful) amount of benefit.

Screw him, he's no better than Osborne just hides it better.
 
fizzelopeguss said:
A family friend of ours declared "fit for work" got back from a stay in hospital on friday after collapsing and passing out. They found multiple blood clots in her neck, we'll get full results on monday but presumably she had a stroke.
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I'm not sure what you are trying to say?

Was she having a stroke when she went for the test and they still passed her? Stroke are one of those things that just hit out of the blue aren't they?
 
The thing that gets me is they don't even use doctors just nurses, and they don't even use mental health nurses for mental health issues. Also if you want it recorded they make you pay 300 quid for ''professional'' equipment.

I worked for the tribunal service in the Moj dealing with social security. Literally every atos rejection was a copy paste job. They have no intention of assessing anyone, just rejecting them.
 
paile said:
How is this even remotely possible?

In Australia my rent per week is three times that.
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The £53 a week does not include things such as housing benefit which you can apply for extra.

The £53 a week figure is what the guy is left with after rent and bills.... He also reckons he is a market trader who works 70 hours a week and only declares £2700 pa earnings to HMRC.

A little fishy methinks.
 
Acorn said:
IDS is a heartless cunt, he has no clue what it's like to live on benefits without mummy and daddy's support. He doesn't care that people are committing suicide over his reforms or that people that game the system will continue to do so whilst ordinary people get screwed out of their (pitiful) amount of benefit.

Screw him, he's no better than Osborne just hides it better.
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The was a 17 year old who recently committed suicide over a speeding ticket... If you are of the mindset to do that type of thing then many things in your life could be the trigger to actually doing it.
 
Acorn said:
Eh no, the govt doesn't pay anything towards bills.
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I never said they did.

The guy was claiming housing benefit and working on a market stall which he reckons only pays £2700 a year for 70 hour weeks.

He is lying somewhere and he has been called out on it.
 
kitch9 said:
I never said they did.

The guy was claiming housing benefit and working on a market stall which he reckons only pays £2700 a year for 70 hour weeks.

He is lying somewhere and he has been called out on it.
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Yes you did. You stated 53 quid was left after rent and bills.
 
Acorn said:
Yes you did. You stated 53 quid was left after rent and bills.
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The guy works..... He is a market trader who only declares he earns £2700 PA to HMRC, but his flat has a telephone line, with sky tv and he runs a mobile.

He is lying.

By the way have you seen Labours new big idea for benefits....

Sounds awesome bandwagon jumping stuff...
 
 
kitch9 said:
The guy works..... He is a market trader who only declares he earns £2700 PA to HMRC, but his flat has a telephone line, with sky tv and he runs a mobile.

He is lying.

By the way have you seen Labours new big idea for benefits....

Sounds awesome bandwagon jumping stuff...
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I wasn't talking about that. Just calling out your fallacy about your bills being paid whilst on benefits but by all means misdirect.
 
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