You understand that from now on, you will you have to be consistent with this critique of this kind of characterization? Critiquing an obscure, niche japanese game design as sexist, a demeaning of women example is low hanging fruit. I'll be waiting for your reaction of Bayonetta 2 or any other higher profile game with similar design.
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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You understand that from now on, you will you have to be consistent with this critique of this kind of characterization? Critiquing an obscure, niche japanese game design as sexist, a demeaning of women example is low hanging fruit. I'll be waiting for your reaction of Bayonetta 2 or any other higher profile game with similar design.
There's a large difference in the way blockbusters are received by critics in each medium. Film basically shuns blockbusters in favor of higher quality films, and video games champion blockbusters as the highest form of video games. Journey certainly deviates itself from that point, but it's a lonely example.
ReeseHoward
Banned
That's because a film's biggest merit is the story, and the way it tells that story.
Video games don't need good stories to be good games. They can be almost anything.
Riposte
Member
So we are still insulting Kamitani. "I'm not saying he is a 14-year-old boy, DUH! I'm just saying he thinks like one. Totally not insulting him." You'd be completely wrong anyway. There is nothing exclusively "14 year old" about his drawings (if you look up an in-depth discussion on his art and its inspirations, I'd say the opposite being true is immediately made clear to be all but a certainty) - at least outside a perfect puritanical society. Adults create aesthetically pleasing erotic imagery and adults consume aesthetically pleasing erotic imagery. The idea that this process is restricted to boys is at best a fantasy to make one feel better about their convictions. That's how the world is (and how the world will be even if you tackled all the sexist problems and succeeded, unless that also includes castration - which may work) and you, on Kotaku of all places, know that. What you are saying is "I don't like that, so I'm going to insult you". Your second response is certainly less befitting a trash-blog and does explain your overall view, but the intent behind the comment remains the same. And it must remain the same, as it is the commentary that best fits your point of view. At best you can only choose to say it more subtly or not say it out loud.
Anyway, the "discuss the art" angle is usually dishonest. Simply discussing the art isn't enough for you to be satisfied. What you want is to "discuss the art" until 1) it goes away, 2) it is treated lowly. Until that happens, the "discussion" will continue. If it is "problematic", that is the "solution". It is not a question of "I don't like it", it is "I don't like that it exists and isn't at least shamed". Why not just be honest? People will react negatively to the shaming process in either case.
To grow and become a medium that's acceptable to the masses it needs better stories, less sexualized characters, and a wider swath of genres other than shoot dudes in an open world, shoot dudes with an arrow in a fantastical kingdom, shoot dudes in a cinematic military hallway.
Delusibeta
Banned
That's true, but that also means we should be turning our ire to video game journalists. I suppose there's some changes, with the Walking Dead and Journey getting praised to high heaven, yet Spec Ops got the cold shoulder in comparison. Yeah, I realise both Walking Dead and Spec Ops are both games that target the male market, but they're both infinitely better than Call of Battlefield 56 (IGN: 9, Edge: 9, Polygon: 11). Bet you the games media will go back to ignoring indie games once the new gen of consoles are released.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. A lot of critics and journalists were not too happy about the games being shown at the PS4 conference in February.
ReeseHoward
Banned
There are a ton of games that aren't "LOL SHOOT DUDES". It's just that game journalists never pay attention to them. That being said, although I love good, story-based games, I don't think games should have to be anything other than what their particular designers want them to be. I wouldn't hold an excuse plot against a well-designed game.
EvilKatarn
Member
This is so dumb. It's like some big videogamejournalist circlejerk where people point out games with designs they deem uncomfortable or sexist or offensive.
It's not even about the problem anymore. It's about hopping on the bandwagon of being a self-righteous prick.
Vanillaware's games have always had distinctive art styles. This is just continuing that trend with another style. All this is doing is going against the notion that videogames should be art. If you can't see the difference between Dead Island's shitty bust statue and Dragon's Crown and cry "Sexism! Sexism!" at both then you have no place in my list of people whose opinion matters to me.
I don't even like the art in Dragon's Crown, but seriously. It's stylish and a fruit of hard work and obviously something with a lot more artistic merit than the barren uninspired lands of Skyrim.
It's not even about the problem anymore. It's about hopping on the bandwagon of being a self-righteous prick.
Vanillaware's games have always had distinctive art styles. This is just continuing that trend with another style. All this is doing is going against the notion that videogames should be art. If you can't see the difference between Dead Island's shitty bust statue and Dragon's Crown and cry "Sexism! Sexism!" at both then you have no place in my list of people whose opinion matters to me.
I don't even like the art in Dragon's Crown, but seriously. It's stylish and a fruit of hard work and obviously something with a lot more artistic merit than the barren uninspired lands of Skyrim.
Absolutely, I think games can be a multitude of things for different people, but it's not the media's fault that most of the games that are selling right now to a nearly an all male audience are these games. They're newsworthy because of the sales they're getting and journalists need to cover them.
I was with you until I remembered that her tits are so big they have different gradations of shading and that they jiggle when she moves. Leisure Suit Larry showed more respect, and that was a game marketed at pervs.
Your implication is that Dragon's Crown is an erotic game.
EvilKatarn: the fact that you can't see the similarities makes me want to dismiss your opinions as well.
Word
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I have this Frazetta poster framed on my wall:
Look at the ass on that horse
An update: http://kotaku.com/the-real-problem-with-that-controversial-sexy-video-ga-478120280
Kamitani has sent me an apology. As translated by Chris Kohler: "While the picture of the dwarfs was meant to be a lighthearted joke, after it became bigger than I thought it would, I reflected on the rashness of it. I am sorry. I have no hard feelings about the article."
Kamitani has sent me an apology. As translated by Chris Kohler: "While the picture of the dwarfs was meant to be a lighthearted joke, after it became bigger than I thought it would, I reflected on the rashness of it. I am sorry. I have no hard feelings about the article."
Several talented women writers do discuss the issue but this is also a wonderful story suggestion. I'd love to see a story in which many, many women from a wide range of contexts (e.g. developers, writers, enthusiasts, casual/sometime consumers, non-playing observers such as mothers, and so on) share their thoughts and perspectives and then discuss the issue with one another.
cutmeamango
Banned
You are drowning it in the middle of your text.
Who says games need any story at all? The analogy to movies is axiomatic - arguing without an argument. So many other instructive analogies out there, too. Poetry for instance. Sorry to break it to you, but the medium already is acceptable to the masses. Demonstrably so. Do not deliberately misinterpret that as suggesting I'm saying that games cannot or should not grow, explore entirely new forms, etc., though. You're also ignoring a wide range of already released titles. Come to think of it, not a single game my fiance spends serious time playing involves what I'd consider storytelling. None involve guns or swords.
Jake Tower
Banned
Shawn, show him the Horse Comic.
It certainly would be nice to have a more diversified view taken by the mainstream gaming press (IGN, Kotaku and whoever else). Might get a few opinions like the following:
The first bold in the quote would've been a more apt topic. Also ties in to Zero Suit Samus in the first, actually.
Jason: Watch Sean Connery's Bond films. Nothing wrong with the way they look. Everything wrong with how they're portrayed and acted upon by everyone else. You Only Live Twice especially (yeah, we just starting watching our Bond 50 Collection this month and the early films really soured my SO on continuing).
You do things right, Jason.
Yes, ten hours is almost eternity in Internet news time. We can't sit on an active story - a story that's being discussed on many other websites - while we wait for Japan to wake up. Like it or not, that's the reality of media (ALL media) in 2013.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Little harsh, but I sorta feel the same way.
My biggest question in all of this is, did Kotaku reach out to Kamitani first to give an interview about this subject, or did they just post this hoping to get a bite?
I mean, highlighting something for the purpose of creating constructive discourse is one thing. Highlighting it as something bad you hope others will join you in a one-sided mocking exercise of is the equivalent of pointing and laughing at someone's expense, which ironically enough is something you would expect from a 14 year old.
Delusibeta
Banned
Memo to self: save this post for the next time you complain that Kotaku hasn't been contacted about something.
You do it!
I'm never sure if you folks are intentionally trolling. Surely you see the difference between contacting someone, then updating a story with their response, and not contacting someone at all?
thebaroness
Member
I was be happy to be a counter point opinion in the gaming journalism spectrum back when I wrote for Gamegirl, but Gamepro went under awhile ago and I haven't pursued it since. I just don't appreciate guys like Schreier putting words in my mouth.
I'm glad there are girl gamers that aren't offended by this, but that doesn't make it acceptable. In fact, this is the fallacy for the white knight accusations that people love to throw around, because I never cared if it offended them or not.
It offends me as someone who likes art, not as someone who cares what girls think about gaming.
cutmeamango
Banned
EDIT: You should heartfeltly apologize to every cosplayer that before that, is a person just like you.
SolidSnakex
Member
Someone didn't edit their post fast enough.
SolidSnakex
Member
My stealth edit wasn't fast enough. Thanks guys.
Have fun discussing this without me!
Wait, so you weren't being sarcastic?
In my opinión it was hardly a story, bit you framed it as one and included a rant agaisnt sexism in gaming that although realistic, it had no basis in this particular situation. Theres also the fact that you only waited 3 hours for his response before jumping the gun. Is three hours also too much too? Are those extra clicks worth a potentially undercooked and one sided piece? Like the one posted in Gamasutra, which you congratulated the writer for, that practically painted him as an homophobic guy?
Edit: Sorry if i come across as a dick, I actually think you are one of the good one, my main problem with the piece is how Little it took you to put it online.
Of course I was, but I realized it wouldn't seem that way after being a jerk, so decided I should just drop it.
But if I offended, I'm sorry.
It'd be easier to apologize than just leaving it hanging as some kind of 'slut shaming' comment.My stealth edit wasn't fast enough. Thanks guys.
Have fun discussing this without me!
As to it being offensive as art, that's taste. It's a thing, and it's normal, and it's okay. I dislike surrealism (makes me uncomfortable). This is my favourite painting.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
As someone who lives with a woman gamer, I am constantly reminded that the things I think might offend women are hard for a man (well, this one anyway) to really accurately guess. It also gives me a viewpoint to compare to the few other female opinions on games I am exposed to regularly. It reinforces to me how no one really agrees on anything, and that I should spend more time listening and less time talking out my ass. If only I was better at this.
thebaroness
Member
Arg, I'm taking your bait, but so be it.
In what world is there not large breasted women in art? How is that suddenly not acceptable? I am an art lover myself, I'm curious as to how paintings created during the Renaissance are acceptable with that opinion.
At that end of the day, this is the only truth and we should just play our games happily.
What makes you think I'm putting words in your mouth?
Father_Brain
Banned
Good. If he's apologized, I don't think there's any need for further argument over the dwarfs image.
No more like what we are saying is there's not much of a difference between not asking for comment before running with a story, and asking but only waiting 5 minutes/an hour/ whatever short period of time before running it.
The net result is the same. Something is run with only one side of the story.
Asking for comment, waiting 5 minutes(as an example, I don't know what you consider an appropriate amount of time, you didn't answer me when I asked), then running it is not an honest attempt to get the other side. It's still the same speed before quality sloppyness you criticize others for.
By that logic one could run a story like this "Game Dev X is a racist" *story includes twitter post the writer thinks is racist* "We've asked Game Dev X for comment and will update when we get a response". 8 hours later "Update: I took that tweet out of context. Game Dev X isn't racist. my bad"
That is not okay. It doesn't change the fact that for 8 hours Game Dev X was wrongly branded a racist.
Getting a response before you publish can change how you write the article or even if you're going to post it at all.
I live with a girl gamer too. You know what else is crazy? She hated bayonetta because it specifically was sexualized and made it seem like it was made by a bunch of pervs.
She likes most games, but thinks the ones i play are too complicated, especially FPS's, not because of violence. She loves resistance 2 coop because of chaingun+shield that helped her learn controls in a nonthreatening way.
She would rather play as an animal than anything. She doesnt even want to be a human.
I've learned a few things, that this planet taken as a whole is a focus group nightmare, and it comes down to insecurity in different forms, but to repress is absolutely wrong. They choose with their wallets.
Jason, you are right, we wouldnt (not couldnt) play that game in front of our mothers (figuratively speaking), but it's our right to design it, and our right to buy it.
So you divorce the eroticism of the art from the game--in other words, there's no game-related purpose outside of titilating men.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
I don't even know what you guys are talking about, but your response is terrible.
"We shouldn't not run with all this patently untrue nonsense about the bombings on CNN because all the other channels are too!"
"We can't sit on this story about this missing student being the suspect and wait for actual fact checks when it's already on Reddit! Like it or not that's really"
So I'm not stuck sharing a series of anecdotes, now is the time when I ask women here if attractive males impede their ability to enjoy the movies in which they perform. Cos it might be the case that I spend time with outliers or unusually candid women. It's also when I ironically suggest that the reason that few women post in this thread is specifically attributable to GAF's sexism.
Those are not good analogies--we're not debating the factual nature of the facebook post, for example. We're talking about waiting for a response before publishing, vs updating the post if a response is made afterwards.
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