#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"

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sestrugen said:
Mock if already posted and old

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/14952/article/sony-employees-respond-to-ps4-no-drm-campaign/

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*mock*

All already posted multiple times.
 
Horsemama1956 said:
MS and Sony(especially Sony) need to just grow some balls and both say they are implementing the DRM. If people don't like it, they can go play mobile games, WiiU games, PC games or games from previous generations. The only people that care are the type to read forums, and I doubt 90% of them have the will to not buy either console if they go the DRM route.

It really makes no sense that one console will go that way and another won't. It's not just Sony and MS that want the DRM, so I don't see how MS would put themselves out there like that unless Publishers are planning on withholding games.
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That's no sign of growing balls. That's just companies grabbing their customers balls testing how far can they squeeze until they pass out.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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I think that's about as much as they can say without getting in hot water from the PR "department". At least it's some form of acknowledgement, and it came quickly.
 
Bunta said:
Really?
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I'm saying the publishers have been waiting so long to implement this. This isn't just about used games, it's about hacking and piracy too. I love paying cheap for my games, who doesn't, but this is one train i don't think anyone can stop and i was saying people should atleast tame they're expectations for E3. Gamestop is predictably keeping quiet in all this....as i would if i were in they're position.
 
gkryhewy said:
Do yu really think there's a chance that there will be major third party multiplats that have draconian anti-used DRM on one console, but not on the other? Something has to give here.
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As some others have said, its more likely that publishers will give other incentives to the Xbox version like an earlier release, exclusive DLC etc. Sony is in a strong position with their market share and they can afford to dictate what THEY think is best for them, and if that happens to align with getting more users than MS, then yeah that could happen.

My personal opinion however, is that MS wont keep it up for long if Sony doesnt do any of this and they start losing customers over it.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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They won't directly respond on Twitter, they'll make a bigger deal out of it.
 
Emwitus said:
Accepting reality. You can all fight for your "rights", but unless you're taking sony to court ain't no way they listen. This is about making money...This is about earning a piece of the pie gamestop earn from ripping as all off. If they rot away in the end i'd be very happy actually. I hate gamestop.
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So use Ebay...?
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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Well we are 'passionate' fans lol. But they know full well that saying anything will lead to news stories and of course reprimanding because they shouldn't be saying anything 'officially' yet.

So encouraging passionate fans like this is the only thing they can really do without getting into trouble for it.
 
Emwitus said:
I'm saying the publishers have been waiting so long to implement this. This isn't just about used games, it's about hacking and piracy too. I love paying cheap for my games, who doesn't, but this is one train i don't think anyone can stop and i was saying people should atleast tame they're expectations for E3. Gamestop is predictably keeping quiet in all this....as i would if i were in they're position.
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No you were saying you'd laugh at people's suffering. Don't backpeddle.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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I highly doubt they can mention anything outright on twitter at the moment. Or else you could have another Adam Orth situation lol. We know they are listening and responding albeit vaguely. More than we can say about MS on this situation.

As I said before I don't think we'll get an answer until E3. On the main stage where Sony can make their message very clear.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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Yeah, its not overly reassuring but a) they arent being quiet about it and fuel oil into the fire and b) I fully expect them not announcing any of this until E3 (where they go after MS to dish out the potential fatality).
 
XAL said:
The people that make the game are getting shafted because their game is being purchased many times over, but none of the money is going to them.
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They're not getting shafted, they've sold their game. The new owner is doing with it what they please. It's no different than selling a house or a car. Selling an old collectable, or toy.

What you're suggesting is that we don't own the game, we merely rent/lease them. And fuck that.
 
Props to everyone who has posted on Twitter.

I sent a pm to a gaming site in Mexico City that has a huge following about this campaign started by GAF. Hopefully they will post something soon about this issue, and Mexico City can join in on the no DRM crusade. ^_^
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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I don't think anything will be said definitively, whatever ends up happening, until E3 at the earliest.

It would be exceptional if Sony made an unambiguous statement before then but I wouldn't remotely expect that to happen (unfortunately).
 
XAL said:
Ah, so the lobby against authentication fees is just to get them to say that the option is on the table?

I think this whole thing is just to exert heavy pressure resellers to cave in, because S/MS don't care about looking bad because they know people will buy their consoles anyways.
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No the point is to make it clear how we feel. We can't do anything more than that.

We can hope that it changes minds. We can hope it has a sea change effect on everything and even the xbone changes. But the point is for us, en masse, to let sony know how we feel so they can't feign ignorance. And it's on pretty good information that they are leaning this way already so several thousand tweets is a nice little push to help them over the wall.
 
XAL said:
Resellers like Gamestop are getting all of the revenue generated from the re-sale of games, sometimes they sell the same game multiple times.

The people that make the game are getting shafted because their game is being purchased many times over, but none of the money is going to them.

I'm certain the publishers and developers have been heavily lobbying Sony and MS for a very long time for a solution that would give them a cut of that missing revenue - because resellers will not give out money from the resells willingly. Given how surprised gamestop was at the word of DRM, I'm guessing any kind of negotiation with resellers for a cut of the revenue did not go anywhere.

One of a few things could happen:
1. The fee for activating a used game is so high that buying a used game makes no sense.
2. The fee for activating a used game is low (ie. 5-10bucks), which would force resellers to lower their resell price to adjust for the online activation fee.
3. The threat of options 1 and 2 force resellers to give a % of revenue generated from preowned titles to publishers/developers.

Given how MS and Sony's stance on DRM for next gen is completely vague at this time, I would have to gather that they are angling for option 3 - but if it came to it, would go with option 2.

Option 3 is the only scenario where people don't have to pay authentication fees.

If you think there is an option 4: we campaign and they don't do any of it, you will be disappointed.
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That's why there were Online passes, or per Publisher authentication for certain features. Which is ok, but to restrict someone to take a game over to a friends house who may become a potential buyer of the game new is not acceptable.

BTW, where do you think used copies of games come from? People who bought it new. People trading in games, usually use that money to buy the new game they want. After 2 years of the game being out, most of the sales have been made, that second hand doesn't matter.

Why would a person trade in a game so quickly? Because is was crap or, short, had no replay value. That's not on the gamer that's on the developer.

Go to your local gamestop and check the used wall. Most games outside of mass selling games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Madden have the highest count for used copies. The other ones, like let's say a game Like Enslaved:Journey to the west have copies available used in abundance. Because even though the game was decent game, it was only around 7 hours long and had no replay value, and the customer paid 59.99 plus tax for 7 hours.

What are they going to do with it? Hang on for nostalgia? No, get rid of it, sell it to a friend, trade it in, ect.

It's the developers and publisher's fault for not making a game that people want to keep playing, or not trade in.

Companies that are complaining are the ones who's game is either shit, or has nothing but a 6 hr campaign with no new game plus or what ever.

Or they ruined their own franchise by putting shit mechanics in, aka Dead space 3. Same goes for Army of Two, those games should have stopped after 1. But EA like's to beat a dead horse with their franchises.

If they had different pricing models based on the content of the game, everyone would be happy.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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It's smart PR, honestly. Microsoft keeps dropping "more details coming...". All that does is piss everyone off.
 
famousmortimer said:
No the point is to make it clear how we feel. We can't do anything more than that.

We can hope that it changes minds. We can hope it has a sea change effect on everything and even the xbone changes. But the point is for us, en masse, to let sony know how we feel so they can't feign ignorance. And it's on pretty good information that they are leaning this way already so several thousand tweets is a nice little push to help them over the wall.
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Well stated.
 
Sony has a huge chance to win over people here. I've never bought a Sony console in my life, but the Xbone disaster has me seriously considering it now. So, good luck guys.
 
Toma said:
Of course there is a chance that it might end in something like that, but its certainly not set in stone yet. All 3 options are bad for the consumer, which is also what people are fighting against. The publishers should have no hands in the used game markets. And considering how some Sony employees are reacting to this atm, I think the chances of YOU getting surprised arent as bad as you think.

But I agree with the others, that discussion is not meant for this thread, as this thread is full of people willing to fight for their rights and not about discussing whether a random poster thinks the time spent on fighting for their rights is worthwhile or not.
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Option 3 is the best option for everyone but the reseller. No authentication fee and the price of preowned games does not change, the people that made the game just get a cut.

This isn't a "fuck all of you you're wasting their time" kind of post - that would be a mistake to take my post that way.

My post was a "guys they're just trying to pressure the resellers into giving a cut of the missing revenue stream for the last 20+ years to the people that make the games".

If both sides were dead set on options 1 or 2, they would have said something concrete about it already instead of just teasing the notion of it. Why tease? It's not to gauge the public's opinion on it because they already know people would hate options 1 and 2, all of it was intended to show resellers that they are playing hardball.

But that's just me.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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I mentioned it earlier. I just hope it isn't a euphemism for Sony are going to fuck us (over) on this!
 
chubigans said:
To be fair, it's an American holiday today, so not many people are at work.
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Aye it's a bank holiday in the UK as well but I regularly see sites update over the weekend, which they should, because I don't see the BBC taking the day off.

Sorry, Canada :(
 
Rule 1 about 4chan: don't take them seriously, their userbase doesn't. Rule 2 about 4chan: don't go there if you're allergic to the use of "fag" as a suffix. Rule 3: don't mention leddit, despite a not insignificant chunk of their user-base using it.
 
This post in the PA thread needs more love

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=59545309#post59545309
faceless007 said:
Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a per-industry basis, not because it's inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it's a threat to the industry's health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations--consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

I don't think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that sometimes industries die and that's the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry inherently worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn't properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what "property ownership" means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn't good enough, and the way you solve it is by making a better product, not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can't find a way to make money off the primary market -- even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and "expanding the audience" and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer -- then, if I may be so blunt, fuck it. It doesn't deserve our money in the first place. If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can go to hell. It doesn't need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry's problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the most likely gamers to trade in games quickly were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they're discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it's just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that's why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn't at this end.
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Papacheeks(GRPodcast) said:
That's why there ware Online passes, or per Publisher authentication for certain features. Which is ok, but to restrict someone to take a game over to a friends house who may become a potential buyer of the game new is not acceptable.

BTW, where do you think used copies of games come from? People who bought it new. People trading in games, usually use that money to buy the new game they want. After 2 years of the game being out, most of the sales have been made, that second hand doesn't matter.

Why would a person trade in a game so quickly? Because is was crap or, short, had no replay value. That's not on the gamer that's on the developer.

Go to your local gamestop and check the used wall. Most games outside of mass selling games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Madden have the highest count for used copies. The other ones, like let's say a game Like Enslaved:Journey to the west have copies available used in abundance. Because even though the game was decent game, it was only around 7 hours long and had no replay value, and the customer paid 59.99 plus tax for 7 hours.

What are they going to do with it? Hang on for nostalgia? No, get rid of it, sell it to a friend, trade it in, ect.

It's the developers and publisher's fault for not making a game that people want to keep playing, or not trade in.

Companies that are complaining are the ones who's game is either shit, or has nothing but a 6 hr campaign with no new game plus or what ever.

Or they ruined their own franchise by putting shit mechanics in, aka Dead space 3. Same goes for Army of Two, those games should have stopped after 1. But EA like's to beat a dead horse with their franchises.

If they had different pricing models based on the content of the game, everyone would be happy.
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No one is debating the reasoning for why games get sold back or the inadequate all titles are created equal therefore all new games must cost the same, the publishers just want a cut of that massive revenue stream because money.

It's not so much about making project 10 dollar universal so much as it is pressuring resellers to give a cut of resells to the publishers/developers.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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Then we'll passionately f*ck them in the ass in return :P Just imagine the backlash hahaha
 
Papacheeks(GRPodcast) said:
let's say a game Like Enslaved:Journey to the west have copies available used in abundance. Because even though the game was decent game, it was only around 7 hours long and had no replay value, and the customer paid 59.99 plus tax for 7 hours.

What are they going to do with it? Hang on for nostalgia? No, get rid of it, sell it to a friend, trade it in, ect.
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This is one of the biggest problems in gaming right now. Currently it's unviable financially for the develper, soon it'll be unviable for the consumer as well. No one will pay that much for a game like that if they can't sell it on, or if the new price isn't driven down.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Well I will eat crow on how big this has gotten, but does anyone else find the Sony responses a little strange? Everyone mentions "passion" but skirts around the actual DRM issue as if a memo went out or something.
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Dude there is no way Sony is going to respond when they don't have a clearcut unified answer to the problem at hand. The few SCE employees that somewhat responded have done this on a personal level and have been really careful not to comment on the stance of Sony. I wouldn't be surprised that an internal email went around at Sony that forbade anybody commenting on this. The next time we hear from Sony I think we will know the answer of what they are going to do. When that is, is anybody's guess at the moment.
 
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