So why does piracy and used games NOT hurt devs?

They do, the only question is how much, but they definitely do more harm than good. The elimination of the used game market with no cut going to developers and publishers is probably one of the best things that can happen to this industry right now. The argument that used games fuel new sales is flawed. It's true that every time you return a game to a retailer you gain some credit you can put toward purchases of new games (although not all of it ends up being spent that way since you can also purchase cheaper used games), but at the same time you create a new used game that someone will buy (otherwise the business model makes no sense for retailers), and the money they spent on something publishers and developers will never see a dime from would otherwise be put toward new game purchases. So it's impossible to say that people would be spending less money on new games if it were not for the used games market, there's no way to prove that whatsoever.

The market without used games of the sort we have at the moment (with no cut going back to publishers) would likely balance itself out, and it would be much more fair to people who actually bring all those games to market.

People keep saying this, and I still don't believe it.

The idea that people are going to be like, "oh, no used? I guess I'll buy new!" isn't going to happen. The only way it happens is if publishers offer lower and dynamic launch prices, as consistent sales (especially through DD), which also isn't going to happen. You know what will happen though? More people will just stick to the mega-franchises like CoD, BF, or AC, and everything from the middling AAA games downward to niche titles will suffer.
 
It's incredibly easy. All you do is download the ISO then replace a file in the install folder with a cracked file. Saves aren't an issue, either. I've done this for a game I bought on Steam and didn't want to use Steam, not a pirate. You also have unlimited downloads, well you have the direct ISO file which is even better.

Uh, I'd edit this since explaining how to get pirated software to work is against the ToS. :I Just to be safe.
 
It's easy but not easier. Package management is more convenient than managing libraries of ISOs for most people who don't keep massive libraries of games on hand. That's why Steam is what it is. I think they converted a lot of ex-pirates once they got their service to that level. It's much easier and safer than searching for torrents that might not even have seeds, dealing with cracks if necessary, and so on. Even for DRM free games, many people prefer having games in a giant list on an account that they can pull from on any PC at will.

That's all true. Pirates pirate single-player games the most since multi requires online authentication. A lot of people just play SP games in general one time through and that's it, so having them in a list isn't a big deal.

Uh, I'd edit this since explaining how to get pirated software to work is against the ToS. :I Just to be safe.
Huh? Lol
What I described is like saying describing how to walk to a store and steal a candy bar is a big no-on.
 
It's easy but not easier. Package management is more convenient than managing libraries of ISOs for most people who don't keep massive libraries of games on hand. That's why Steam is what it is. I think they converted a lot of ex-pirates once they got their service to that level. It's much easier and safer than searching for torrents that might not even have seeds, dealing with cracks if necessary, and so on. Even for DRM free games, many people prefer having games in a giant list on an account that they can pull from on any PC at will.

Well, that's the point of cracked exe's existing. Removes the need for a disc, physical or digital.
 
Piracy and used game sales hurt developers, publishers and paying customers. There are so many variables to consider when it comes to explaining why, though.

The majority of arguments in favor of piracy are complete bullshit. There are plenty of opportunists out there. They'll take what they can get at no cost, regardless of whether or not it's right, as long as they can get it without getting into trouble and as long as it requires little effort. You can't just assume that someone who pirates a game wouldn't have purchased it, anyway. The price isn't always the issue; sometimes, the VALUE of a game is more important. If a game's perceived value outweighs the effort of pirating said game, then most people who can afford a game will buy it. If piracy was actually difficult, then it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

As a bit of aside, does anyone else feel that games held more value to them when they were more difficult to obtain or keep? I remember being blown away more consistently by games when I didn't have any cash flow as a kid. I'd rent games most of the time, so the short time that I had with many of them just felt so much more rewarding. When I'd get a game for my birthday or for Christmas, I'd play that game so much longer than I'd play most games now. I don't even feel that it speaks of the quality of games back then versus what they are now. It's just that it's so easy to get games now, even if you're paying for them. I just have so many games in my Steam account that I haven't even played, and games that I *do* play probably don't always get the same amount of enjoyment out of me as they probably would've when I couldn't afford them. Also, I almost feel that people who pirate games tend to be less appreciative of them.

People bitch about the price of new games, yet people forget that there was a time when the average price of games fell. Why? Because Sony made it a point to pass the manufacturing cost savings onto consumers more or less at the height of PlayStation's (PlayStation 1, mind you) popularity. The cost of games fell because development costs hadn't increased dramatically in any meaningful way, and piracy was probably more of a niche thing. It wasn't as easy to pirate games for consoles at that point. (PC games were another story, of course.)

If there were fewer opportunists out there, then the price of new games probably could fall, because it's better for companies to sell more copies at a reduced cost than it is for them to hold out at higher price points for sales that'll inevitably slow to a crawl over time. (Steam is proof of this.)

The problem with used games is that they're more or less doing what launching at a lower price point would've accomplished. They're competing with the new product, and the new product needs to have additional value incorporated into its cost to account for piracy and used game sales. Even if you reduce the cost of new games to what you typically pay for those same games used, used copies can still be offered at a lower cost, and people who currently buy used games WILL still purchase those used copies. It has nothing to do with the new games being within the price range that they consider to be affordable; it has everything to do with the fact that the used copy is less-expensive.

And yes, I realize that a lot of trade-in credit goes toward new games, but it'd still be better for developers, publishers and paying customers if everyone just purchased new copies (assuming that publishers could set lower price points at launch and have said price points not fuck them over).

There's a lot to say about this, and I probably left something out, but that's how I feel about piracy and used games.

We have 8 years of data to prove that MS and Sony will fuck us over on DD pricing on full games. Why should any of us believe now they won't fuck us over all of a sudden? My favorite is them charging 10-15 dollars for 99 cent tablet/phones. People can talk about steam all they want but they have competition and a history of good sales.
 
No, if piracy weren't an option the pirates wouldn't purchase the game anyway.

And how do you know that? If the only possible option to play games were to buy them, even "pirates" would pay for them like everybody else, unless they don't even like video games in the first place.
 
Assumpions left and right. I think the very popular assumption that pirates would never have bought a game at full price is just as stupid as the assumption that every pirated game is a lost sale.
I also dislike gamestops spin on the used games market. 70% of all the trade in money might get used to buy new games, but the seem to ignore that other people will pick up the used games. 4 trade in for one new game and the market gets flooded with cheap software, making it hard to sell a game at full price even 2 weeks after launch or having steam style sakes later on.

I think with devs and publishers shutting down left and right we should at least be open to trying.

Rising the price of used games and giving the devs a cut seems reasonable.
 
And yes, I realize that a lot of trade-in credit goes toward new games, but it'd still be better for developers, publishers and paying customers if everyone just purchased new copies (assuming that publishers could set lower price points at launch and have said price points not fuck them over).

Why would you make this assumption though?

I addressed this on the previous page:

Also, not totally on topic, but related: the notion that game prices would drop in this scenario is really misguided. Assuming a game sold 3m new at $60, but also 500k used, that would still make more money for a publisher than 3.5m being sold new at $45. So anyone who supports this system (and there seem to be alot) with the assumption of cheaper prices should take this into account.
 
That's all true. Pirates pirate single-player games the most since multi requires online authentication. A lot of people just play SP games in general one time through and that's it, so having them in a list isn't a big deal.


Huh? Lol
What I described is like saying describing how to walk to a store and steal a candy bar is a big no-on.

I mean, I guess. I was just trying to help.

And how do you know that? If the only possible option to play games were to buy them, even "pirates" would pay for them like everybody else, unless they don't even like video games in the first place.

No, my argument is that pirates pirate games they wouldn't buy anyway. Pirates more than likely buy games they really want/like.

Again, conjecture. I have no supporting evidence.
 
I've never, NEVER encountered a semi-decent argument about why games must be shielded against the used market and not pretty much any other product.
 
Lots of ways.

Lots of people can afford a new game. Those people sell it for $40 to people who can't afford full price. They then funnel that $40 forward to the next game.

Lots of people won't risk their $60 on a new IP but will drop $30 to try it out, building the possibility that person will buy the sequel at launch.

Etc.

Did just that with Mass Effect and then bought two copies of M2 and M3 at launch for my brother!
 
Making bad and generic games causes more lost sales than piracy and used games sales, yet publishers are driving the industry to more generic and bad games with their low risk/high budget model.

Stop worry about pirates and used games and start focusing on making better and more varied games. The sales will follow.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that piracy is a good thing, but hurting all your consumers to stop the pirates isn't. I buy my games new and almost always at full price, because i don't want to wait for sales. I buy my console at launch and if it breaks 3 years down the line ill buy a new one without batting an eye. If i like a game I will convince my friends to try it out and yes that means lending a game out here an there. Why should I suffer because of some dicks. Making a system always on is like assuming everyone is a pirate and I take offense to that.
 
The problem with used games is that they're more or less doing what launching at a lower price point would've accomplished. They're competing with the new product, and the new product needs to have additional value incorporated into its cost to account for piracy and used game sales. Even if you reduce the cost of new games to what you typically pay for those same games used, used copies can still be offered at a lower cost, and people who currently buy used games WILL still purchase those used copies. It has nothing to do with the new games being within the price range that they consider to be affordable; it has everything to do with the fact that the used copy is less-expensive.

And yes, I realize that a lot of trade-in credit goes toward new games, but it'd still be better for developers, publishers and paying customers if everyone just purchased new copies (assuming that publishers could set lower price points at launch and have said price points not fuck them over).

There's a lot to say about this, and I probably left something out, but that's how I feel about piracy and used games.

So are used consoles bad for console sales because they're "doing what launching at a lower price point would've accomplished"
 
Could someone explain why piracy and used games do no hurt devs? When people can continuously get games without paying devs, how does that not hurt devs?

i don't think anyone is saying piracy doesn't hurt devs. it does, at least theoretically (if you assume a user who pirates <game> would have otherwise purchased <game>)

the discussion is used games. that isn't piracy. not even close to the same thing.
 
It's pretty silly to put used games and piracy into the same category.

Just as it's silly to think this move by the XBone (and maybe PS4) have anything to do with Piracy, and isn't entirely driven by companies thinking they own something you've bought and still have right to a cut should you do anything with it.
 
Assumpions left and right. I think the very popular assumption that pirates would never have bought a game at full price is just as stupid as the assumption that every pirated game is a lost sale.
I also dislike gamestops spin on the used games market. 70% of all the trade in money might get used to buy new games, but the seem to ignore that other people will pick up the used games. 4 trade in for one new game and the market gets flooded with cheap software, making it hard to sell a game at full price even 2 weeks after launch or having steam style sakes later on.

I think with devs and publishers shutting down left and right we should at least be open to trying.

Rising the price of used games and giving the devs a cut seems reasonable.
Used games aren't the cause of studio closures. Incompetent management is.
 
Every other piece of media wears of or has more than one revenue stream.
Not really. Not -all- books have digital versions, not all music CDs are on iTunes, not all films make it to services like Netflix once they're not on theaters anymore. Plus it's hardly a good argument when you don't need anyone's permission to read a book or play music.

"I'm okay with physical copies being pretty much digital copies and not being able to buy software once Xbox One support ceases because poor developers want games to be the only physical media out there to be immune to basic consumer rights". Nope. Absolutely no.
 
And how much are they going to give you for a trade in. If the rumors are true and retailers only get 10% of the sell then how much are they going to give you for a game. If gamestop sells a used game for $50 but only makes $5 then they'll give you $2 or $3 which means most people are going to just keep their games. You could look at that as a good thing for the industry I guess, but used games got me into several franchises that I bought sequels for on day one. I was also able to try out some older classics which turned me on to some devs that I wouldn't have known of otherwise. Personally I think the benefits outweigh the costs in the long run.

I don't know what they're going to do. I'm not speaking with absolute authority or anything, mishandled there's a good chance this could backfire. They have to get the balance between increasing profits and not marginalising customer's purchasing power right.
 
For PC games this is true, but historically not the case for consoles. The last console that had "easily" copied game content was the dreamcast, and that was an anomaly. Playstation consoles in particular have always been VERY difficult to crack for the average consumer, and the PS3 was all but immune due to no one having a blu ray burner.

The argument that "easily copied software" is an excuse for anti consumer DRM *on consoles* is flat out false.

For sure. Was talking software in general. DD console purchases have an excuse for DRM as well, I would argue, but that DRM can be something as simple as just tying the license to a console or preferably an account. With digital console purchases, people don't currently have a way to sell that software without selling their console or account so I don't think anyone begrudges the inability to copy the games or having those licenses tied to them.

No excuse for physical product DRM on consoles though, that's what I was getting at.
 
The argument can be made that PC gamers have been compensated for the lack of a secondhand market with much lower prices through sales and other promotions.

I buy a game for $5 on a steam sale and hate it, I don't care that I can't turn the game on someone else and get some of that back.
 
Every other piece of media wears of or has more than one revenue stream.

And every other piece of media wishes it could get away with 59.99 pricing. The used game market shows that 59.99 is just to much damn money for a game. Especially since they think every single fucking game deserves that price point.
 
Are you opposed to used sales of any product at all, in any form, regardless of what it is? In any other market, the existence of used sales is taken for granted. You sell a product. It is out there in the world now. customers get to buy and sell it as they please. Nothing makes video games special in this regard.
 
Every other piece of media wears of or has more than one revenue stream.

revenue streams like DLC and microtransactions?

there is absolutely no reason, at all, why *physical copies* of a game should be treated differently than every other physical product on the planet. no reason. the games industry isn't unique.

the fact remains that video game publishers have buried their head in the sand for YEARS, completely ignoring the changing winds in the market, and now they're leaking cash left and right. the expectation that we, as consumers, should foot the bill for their misstep is outrageous.
 
B-but demos cost money to make. And aren't really needed. Wouldn't you like perhaps to check out some of our promotional materials instead?

True. This whole ordeal is somewhat of a slippery slope. If the game/demo is good though (I would imagine the developers kinda know) then a demo is warranted, and theoretically the money should be made up.
 
To answer the question: most people who pirate a game wouldn't have bought the game in the first place.

Usually.
Bullshit.

If they're pirating, there is some degree of interest in the product. The problem then is whether the current price or incentives to buy the product are high enough to convince someone to pay. I'd wager a lot of games that have been pirated would have been purchases if the games were on sale faster or were half off on pre-orders. Something can be priced low enough to even make a pirate want to purchase. But pricing models -- especially on consoles -- tends to be very inflexible. Whereas on PC, there are several places to get really good deals just a month after release if not pre-release.
 
And every other piece of media wishes it could get away with 59.99 pricing. The used game market shows that 59.99 is just to much damn money for a game. Especially since they think every single fucking game deserves that price point.

Bought a concert ticket recently?
 
Every other piece of media wears of or has more than one revenue stream.

Arguing why it's harder for the videogame industry to survive with used games sales isn't an argument against used games sales, it's an argument against the viability of the videogames (or a specific subset of the videogames) industry.
 
Bullshit.

If they're pirating, there is some degree of interest in the product. The problem then is whether the current price or incentives to buy the product are high enough to convince someone to pay. I'd wager a lot of games that have been pirated would have been purchases if the games were on sale faster or were half off on pre-orders. Something can be priced low enough to even make a pirate want to purchase.

But they weren't, therefore the pirates wouldn't have purchased the game, which means there's no sale-loss.
 
We have 8 years of data to prove that MS and Sony will fuck us over on DD pricing on full games. Why should any of us believe now they won't fuck us over all of a sudden? My favorite is them charging 10-15 dollars for 99 cent tablet/phones. People can talk about steam all they want but they have competition and a history of good sales.

There are a lot of variables that weren't included in my argument. Microsoft and Sony can't just use digital distribution pricing to undercut what retail stores like GameStop offer. Nearly everything that is achieved in digital distribution ends up being set back by something that the respective company has to do to keep GameStop from refusing to carry its stock.

Also, digital distribution prices on consoles are high because consoles aren't connected to the Internet automatically when prepared for normal use. Cell phones, on the other hand, are always connected, and that's why it's okay to price games at $.99 without having to worry about not making a killing.

So are used consoles bad for console sales because they're "doing what launching at a lower price point would've accomplished"

Used consoles are arguably BETTER for console manufacturers if they're taking a loss on new hardware when selling it, actually. That's probably why you can get refurbished hardware from them, though.
 
well if it's an online game, there are costs for keeping the servers up and running.
when someone buys a used game, the devs and publishers don't get a cut, but they do have to keep providing a service for that user.
therefor i'm kinda ok with online passes

singleplayer games, thats not really the case

do we want developers to shove MP into every game because of that?
--> already happening
 
Used games are definitely good for the industry. They lead to new discoveries, the help people purchase new games when they dump their old games, and they help us preserve our history by being able to go back and pick up a game from years past. Publishers might lose some money on those $5 discounted used copies of new releases, but it's probably negligible. And by the time the used price has fallen to the point of destroying the new market, the game is likely to have already lost it's place on a retailer's shelf to the next best thing.

These things aside, nobody other industry blames the used market for it's shortcomings. It's pretty clear to me that the problem is ballooning budgets, especially around games that were never going to recoup such huge investments. If expectations were reeled back in and budgets adjusted accordingly, games could be profitable on smaller margins and developers and publishers wouldn't need a scapegoat.
 
You would think not spending more money than what you're going to make selling your game would be the logical solution - Nope, it's not. Make hardware developers cut the life of their gaming systems so they're useless once support is dropped because OMG people buy used stuff :(

Lol, developers. I won't support this crap.
 
I don't know what they're going to do. I'm not speaking with absolute authority or anything, mishandled there's a good chance this could backfire. They have to get the balance between increasing profits and not marginalising customer's purchasing power right.

Unfortunately, they don't know what they're going to do either or else there wouldn't be so much conflicting information from the companies leaders. Hopefully they figure it out before E3 and do what is right by the consumer because that is who going to make or break them because of their decisions.
 
There are a lot of variables that weren't included in my argument. Microsoft and Sony can't just use digital distribution pricing to undercut what retail stores like GameStop offer. Nearly everything that is achieved in digital distribution ends up being set back by something that the respective company has to do to keep GameStop from refusing to carry its stock.

Also, digital distribution prices on consoles are high because consoles aren't connected to the Internet automatically when prepared for normal use. Cell phones, on the other hand, are always connected, and that's why it's okay to price games at $.99 without having to worry about not making a killing.



Used consoles are arguably BETTER for console manufacturers if they're taking a loss on new hardware when selling it, actually. That's probably why you can get refurbished hardware from them, though.

If gamestop is the evil empire why should they do anything to help them? Also they can match average retail price not be twice the cost. Come on that is a huge BS argument to justify charging 10x as much for the same game. There is no used games to worry about but still charge 10x as much is garbage and shows they will screw over gamers plain and simple.
 
The argument can be made that PC gamers have been compensated for the lack of a secondhand market with much lower prices through sales and other promotions.

I buy a game for $5 on a steam sale and hate it, I don't care that I can't turn the game on someone else and get some of that back.

Problem is you can only do this with old games. New AAA games from the major publishers still cost 50+ bucks, sometimes you can get em for 35 at GMG. I usually only play new games. Why wait a year to play a game you're anticipating, that would be brutal.
 
Piracy and used games (but especially piracy) help people latch onto and become fans of older games that are no longer sold. A fan base can grow independently of the publisher and when they actually make a new entry in the franchise there is a larger fan base and more potential buyers. Since you can't make money off something your not selling, the pubs and devs lose nothing.
 
Can you imagine buying a music CD and not having permission to listen to it because it wasn't released recently?
 
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59545309&postcount=1361
Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a per-industry basis, not because it's inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it's a threat to the industry's health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations--consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

I don't think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that sometimes industries die and that's the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry inherently worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn't properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what "property ownership" means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn't good enough, and the way you solve it is by making a better product, not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can't find a way to make money off the primary market -- even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and "expanding the audience" and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer -- then, if I may be so blunt, fuck it. It doesn't deserve our money in the first place. If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can go to hell. It doesn't need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry's problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the most likely gamers to trade in games quickly were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they're discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it's just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that's why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn't at this end.

Flawless post.
 
Piracy and used games (but especially piracy) help people latch onto and become fans of older games that are no longer sold. A fan base can grow independently of the publisher and when they actually make a new entry in the franchise there is a larger fan base and more potential buyers. Since you can't make money off something your not selling, the pubs and devs lose nothing.


Can't believe what I'm reading here. Wow... Just wow...
 
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