Nintendo's Iwata: "I don't recall saying I'd resign."

Nintendo is a business. It is natural for them. Just because you aren't getting what you want doesn't mean they aren't listening to the consumers (and frankly, a story wouldn't have saved Sticker Star)

Maybe. Miiverse works too. Those are both two mediums which allow consumers to voice their opinion and Nintendo has very clearly paid attention to both (hence why we are getting Earthbound)

I wish people wouldn't say "XXX is a business" and then use it to back up their BS. LOL, it took 7 years to get Earthbound and you are going to pretend Nintendo was listening?

All I want to know from you is: Do you really think that Club Nintendo surveys had the final word or do you believe that Miyamoto did?

If you believe Miyamoto did then I want to know why the fuck you are even arguing with me in the first place?
 
As for your tirade about Iwata neutering NoA. NoA has been dead for years. That's the truth. Treehouse is the last good thing about it and that's because Nintendo's core localization team has been together FOREVER and all their kids go to school together - they are incredibly tight and will never leave unless something drastic happens. The rest of NoA? The Wii was such a novel product that many people coasted through, even though they had the ability to really get deep and do some impressive things with their fan community. That's a failure of Reggie and other execs, not Iwata who basically gave them the freedom to do what they wanted and even made a bunch of games like Xenoblade available for them to localize.

Everything about your post was outstanding....until this part. I disagree VEHEMENTLY here. Have you seen what's going on with licensing? People like Dan Adelman and Mark Griffin are responsible for the awesome amount of independent developer support that Nintendo is receiving on the eShop. Zach Fountain (not licensing, but still) is responsible for coming up with ideas like Nintendo TVii. Middle management in key areas at NOA are doing some pretty badass things and bringing lots of new ideas to the forefront that will help the company be competitive in the years to come.

Treehouse is great, sure. But that department will ALWAYS have that tight link with NCL solely based on the nature of their work. It's other departments like Licensing and Network Business which are going to stretch Nintendo into new areas where they can be a lot more effective and compete. Have you noticed Nintendo's complete 180 when it concerns their Internet presence? That was the work of new blood coming into DCC and marketing to make that happen. There is a LOT more to NOA than just Treehouse.


I think what he meant was that he was willing to become a pain in Yamauchi's ass in order to get it done. And since Yamauchi trusted him, it sometimes got stuff done.

Okay, if that's what he meant...then I'm down with that. It seemed like he was saying that he was getting in Yamauchi-San's face or something. lol.
 
Considerations about which point of the generational lifecycle those years represent aside, if the market sizes are really that close, then the market could be shrinking, which means less than 20m Wii U, ceteris paribus. Esp. if we adjust for inflation.

That is, assuming the Wii U will never get any killer app, and that those games will absolutely have the same reception (hard to believe a 3D Mario World, which is a feature-rich 3D Mario with some 2D appeal won't outsell Sunshine for example).

That is a lot of assumptions.

About the role history plays in this, there's one thing we can be absolutely certain: history will repeat itself or history will not repeat itself. That much we've seen all the time.

I'm not treating GameCube hardware sales as directly comparative to the Wii U---clearly, there is a myriad of factors separating the two systems--what I am proposing is a rough system of equivalence that appropriates GameCube's sales performance (22 million) as a hypothetical Wii U upper limit GIVEN the somewhat similar coincidences (console appears to be at a point of irrelevancy, third-party abandonment, no apparent killer app that would dramatically reverse sales trends in the long-term, etc.) I believe these selected factors are crucial to marketshare and console adoption.
 

Agreed on all counts. For the kind of company Nintendo is, I think they've been moving along just fine. It is just the nature of the beast. They say it over and over in interviews. Nintendo is a hit making company. They got lucky a long time ago and found some talent that had some smart ideas for creating hits and through those hires, they've passed on a culture of trying to create hits. They aren't out to do yearly or bi-yearly iteration on common, trending topics and do it with one or two additional sparkling effects added. That model is actually really, really dangerous despite how safe it sounds. People will pop up and copy you, doing it cheaper or more efficiently. It becomes a race to the bottom where no one is profitable anymore and it becomes a war of marketing and manipulating the consumer. Through out Nintendo's constantly changing products, they've made themselves very difficult to copy and you can see that today because of how similar a lot of popular, non-Nintendo products are. It is inevitable that with Nintendo's business model, there are going to be periods where they can't get things right. This doesn't mean they're doomed. People will pay attention to Nintendo when they're down just like people paid attention to Apple. They aren't going to be forgotten overnight, nor will they go bankrupt. I think we could go a decade without a hit Nintendo product and everyone will still know exactly who they are.

I think a lot of people get the wrong impression of them as well. I think that by doing things like creating the tablet controller, they're keeping their culture of blending hardware/software into new products alive. Maybe they even knew that controller wasn't the next big thing. Maybe they had to make a home console to keep some revenue coming in and they had to keep the culture of doing new things alive while they spent more time working on their next real big thing. The Nintendo that I see right now - with the constant blend of new hardware/software development - is much closer to abandoning the video game market we see today and go on to creating household, robotic Pokemon than going third-party. If they don't continue the path of innovating, they're going to find themselves in a risky position of being just like any other third-party game developer and that is when they will be doomed. Luckily, throughout his interviews, it seems that Iwata realizes just that which is why I think he's a pretty fair CEO.
 
I wish people wouldn't say "XXX is a business" and then use it to back up their BS. LOL, it took 7 years to get Earthbound and you are going to pretend Nintendo was listening?

All I want to know from you is: Do you really think that Club Nintendo surveys had the final word or do you believe that Miyamoto did?

If you believe Miyamoto did then I want to know why the fuck you are even arguing with me in the first place?

Nintendo listened pretty quickly once Miiverse was bombarded with requests for Earthbound outside of Japan. I'm not sure what their reluctance to release it prior has anything to do with my point.

Miyamoto obviously has the final word (why are you even asking this question?). But he seemed adamant that Club Nintendo influenced his decision. And I believe that. There's no point in putting effort into something that your customers aren't enjoying (which seemed to be the case in Club Nintendo surveys).
 
So then, what should Nintendo have done in the West? Throw millions into California-based companies for no reason? Buy up studios only for the talent to leave? Money hat a bunch of games from developers that had no interest in making Wii games? I keep hearing all this talk about "Nintendo and West" - but there aren't a lot of compelling things Nintendo could have done. Building studios takes years, and Nintendo isn't just going to throw millions for another nightmare like Retro to occur which consumed incredible time from NCL and EAD.

I think it's a case where "something" would be better than "nothing" which we're seeing now. I'm not going to act like I have all the answers and could go in and fix all Nintendo's problems but outside of the fickle "non-gamer" audience that bought into the Wii, which Nintendo failed to capture long-term, they have done nothing to improve their increasingly poor mindshare outside Japan.

One idea, why can't Nintendo do in the west what they do in Japan? Why can't they partner with western studios to create experiences that cater specifically to western audiences? We saw this sort of thing last generation, but all their partnerships were either 1) entirely Japan-focused, or 2) intended for worldwide appeal and not something that was specifically catering to the western audience or filling the blatantly obvious gaps in their system's software lineup.

Sure, you can point to failed experiments like Geist, but one or two failed attempts at catering to the west shouldn't prevent them from doing it altogether. The gaming market outside Japan is significantly bigger and more lucrative than Japan alone where Nintendo has focused so much, and if Nintendo can't leverage that they need to make some major changes.
 
I think it's highly unlikely that the Wii U will rocket to success at this point. Not impossible, but very unlikely.

Generally speaking, the most likely course of events in any situation is "present trends will continue," especially (in gaming) mid-generation when consumers have already had a chance to look at a product. Yes, very occasionally game changers come along and shift a product dramatically in the middle of its lifespan, but those are very uncommon. If they were fixed and yet it wasn't selling well, you could definitely say the chances of sale improving is low. Not that it may not happen, but with much more uncertainty involved

While acknowledging that anything is possible, I think a reasonable person would say the most likely future is that preset trends continue, and the Wii U remains a dramatic failure or, at best, a middling success.
How would you explain 3DS come back then? Wii U has very few exclusivess so far, and is very expensive for what people are used to.
 
Nintendo listened pretty quickly once Miiverse was bombarded with requests for Earthbound outside of Japan. I'm not sure what their reluctance to release it prior has anything to do with my point.

Miyamoto obviously has the final word (why are you even asking this question?). But he seemed adamant that Club Nintendo influenced his decision. And I believe that. There's no point in putting effort into something that your customers aren't enjoying (which seemed to be the case in Club Nintendo surveys).

I am asking because that (Miyamoto has the last word) was my point and if you didn't disagree with me, then why are you arguing with me? People blaming Club Nintendo surveyors is ridiculous. Miyamoto took some information (that SPM was too wordy) and took it to the extreme. Miyamoto is to blame for the way Sticker Star turned out.
 
Why is that funny? Microsoft is doing it. It would be a very profitable revenue stream for them instead of spending 6 years rebuilding their half ass VC library every time a new system comes out. I am very confident once Iwata steps down the next CEO will do just that.

I feel quite confident saying that won't happen, for reasons of their entire business model - why should nintendo care what MS does? these are staunchly different entities for reasons we could spend an entire thread on...I was going to write a post bout why working on your own closed ecosystem - the most valuable back-catalog in gaming, and one you don't share any royalties on for your own properties - but it would've been no better than a lazy MJlaughing jif after tehrik-e-insaaf's fantastic post, honestly
 
Regardless the holiday season is going to be interesting to watch. Either the Wii U does well or it doesn't. Plain and simple. They're prettymcuh repeating the launch with their offerings (I still feel this is a big mistake) but this time they have two new consoles to go up against. Make no mistake they are competing with them no matter what Nintendo says. Competing for the money of customers.

If Nintendo wants to make sure the Wii U sells I don't think their platformers are going to do it. At least not by themselves in the west. If they want to get through to parents they should be backing as much as possible the new Skylanders and Disney Infinity. Both are releasing on the Wii U. Both will be on the radar of many parents. It seems like a good path to sell the Wii U to these parents by showing them the better look version of the game compared to their current systems but by also offering a lower price point then the PS4/XBO.

If they were heading into the holidays with Mario Kart 8 and with a brand new, much more content packed Wii Sports I honestly would feel significantly better about their chances of doing well.
 
I am asking because that (Miyamoto has the last word) was my point and if you didn't disagree with me, then why are you arguing with me? People blaming Club Nintendo surveyors is ridiculous. Miyamoto took some information (that SPM was too wordy) and took it to the extreme. Miyamoto is to blame for the way Sticker Star turned out.

You seem to think that the blame lies entirely with Miyamoto. He certainly has the final say with the game, but his actions were influenced by consumer feedback. Sorry that you disagree with what that feedback said.

The lack of story was hardly Sticker Star's problem, at any rate. Having a TTYD-level story wouldn't have made it a better game.
 
How would you explain 3DS come back then? Wii U has very few exclusivess so far, and is very expensive for what people are used to.
Less competition

Let's stop pretending that Nintendo's history with handhelds is anywhere near comparable to their console history. When the 3DS has two direct and major (Apple, Android and smartphones may be major, but they're not direct competitors aiming to swipe the gaming industry from Nintendo... yet) competitors eating up nearly two third of hardware marketshare (360 and PS3's 150 million versus Wii's 100 million) then we can talk about their consoles and handhelds having similar challenges to face. So far the only handheld that has ever posed a major threat from a marketshare perspective is the PSP. In the console realm Nintendo has faced much more pressure in the form of the genesis, saturn, xbox, 360, Playstation, Playstation 2, Playstation 3 and the PC that spans the better part of three decades.

Can you say with a straight face that the 3DS would be doing as well if Microsoft and Sony were both backing handhelds as strongly as they do the PS3 and 360? Nintendo has virtually no competition from the traditional hardware manufacturers in the handheld sector.

We seriously gotta stop pretending that what worked for the 3DS will work for the Wii U just because.
 
How would you explain 3DS come back then? Wii U has very few exclusivess so far, and is very expensive for what people are used to.

Japan. Portables have been and will continue to dominate Japan and either Sony or Nintendo was going to be able to capitalize on it. Nintendo completely throat slashed Sony with the MH steal and the combined weight of all their franchises MH and the rest of Japan brought it to success there. Take it to the US and Europe where outside of that Nov and Dec after the price drop sales haven't been particularly impressive and were actually quite crud the last few months although Animal Crossing seems to have alleviated that. Now unless the Wii U can maneuver its way down to the price the 3DS is at which is almost impossible due to how much Nintendo woud lose its impossible. The Wii U is an even worse disaster in Japan than in the US with no support. The industry bascially has decided the Wii U doesnt exist and so has consumers.


Can you say with a straight face that the 3DS would be doing as well if Microsoft and Sony were both backing handhelds as strongly as they do the PS3 and 360? Nintendo has virtually no competition from the traditional hardware manufacturers in the handheld sector.

Maybe not in the west, but in Japan Nintendo will comtinue to dominate the portable sector for the forseeable future. Even without Monster Hunter, they still would dominate. Their franchise strength in Japan is not to be disregarded and Nintendo is completely in control right now. And this is without the most powerful franchise they have (Pokemon) launching yet. Do not underestimate Nintendo in terms of portables in Japan.
 
We seriously gotta stop pretending that what worked for the 3DS will work for the Wii U just because.

Another thing to add is budget. 3DS games don't cost tens of millions of dollars to make. Nintendo can use their Gamecube/Wii teams to easily pump out games when they were struggling.

This is not the case with Wii U. It would cost alot more for Nintendo to recreate such a momentum. In addition, they seemed to be having problems creating games in HD as well (a hurdle not existing with 3DS).
 
Maybe not in the west, but in Japan Nintendo will comtinue to dominate the portable sector for the forseeable future. Even without Monster Hunter, they still would dominate. Their franchise strength in Japan is not to be disregarded and Nintendo is completely in control right now. And this is without the most powerful franchise they have (Pokemon) launching yet. Do not underestimate Nintendo in terms of portables in Japan.
No doubt about that. Japan is Nintendo Land for handhelds for the foreseeable future and not just because of "less competition". They are truly hungry beasts willing to go the extra fifteen miles (not one, but fifteen!) to secure exclusives, timed deals, etc. They don't play around on their home turf when it comes to handhelds.
Another thing to add is budget. 3DS games don't cost tens of millions dollars to make. Nintendo can use their Gamecube/Wii teams to easily pump out games when they were struggling.

This is not the case with Wii U. It would cost alot more for Nintendo to recreate such a momentum. In addition, they seemed to be having problems creating games in HD as well (a hurdle not existing with 3DS).
True
 
Japan. Portables have been and will continue to dominate Japan and either Sony or Nintendo was going to be able to capitalize on it. Nintendo completely throat slashed Sony with the MH steal and the combined weight of all their franchises MH and the rest of Japan brought it to success there. Take it to the US and Europe where outside of that Nov and Dec after the price drop sales haven't been particularly impressive and were actually quite crud the last few months although Animal Crossing seems to have alleviated that. Now unless the Wii U can maneuver its way down to the price the 3DS is at which is almost impossible due to how much Nintendo woud lose its impossible. The Wii U is an even worse disaster in Japan than in the US with no support. The industry bascially has decided the Wii U doesnt exist and so has consumers.

That's their loss.

The industry is run by nitwits and consumers, collectively, become nitwits when presented with glamorous advertising.

Consider the fact that more people on Neogaf will purchase an Xbox One than a Wii U. Even the people of Neogaf, who should be more informed of what's happening, will actually pay money for a console that is nothing more than a trojan horse.

If Nintendo fails to succeed, it is not Nintendo's fault.
 
This is a tired one-sided narrative - summing up: "Nintendo lost the West and is d00med here" and "Iwata is insular and conservative" - try something that isn't repeating stereotypical memes based on your unfounded assumptions of Nintendo as a company.

I'll try something else when what I'm currently saying isn't backed by Nintendo's current performance and their likely trajectory moving forward.

The first thing people need to understand about Nintendo is that they are a design company, like Apple. They will have tremendous hits and flops over time, but net-net, they are creating shareholder value - which is why the company has $14 billion in cash and short-term holdings making it the most valuable gaming company in the world.

Running a design company isn't about jumping on trends, it's about fostering a creative culture where people are free to work and create, and then jumping on key products as they are built and figuring out how to get people to buy them. That's a tremendous job. That is why Steve Jobs was respected the way he was. This is why Satoru Iwata is highly respected within Nintendo. These guys are going to make mistakes and they are going to do things that puzzle people (Jobs was famous for closed ecosystems, when everyone else was going open), but their internal teams love them, and they perform and work for him because they admire/respect him - and there is a cult of personality around them. You can't just bring in a mercenary fly-by-night executive looking to cash-in to run these companies. The talent would just get up and leave.

A incorrect summation of a company to better compare them to a flailing Nintendo and make them look better by comparison?

You're only half right here. Nintendo is indeed a design company very much like Apple in that regard. But Apple wouldn't be where it is today if were only a design company. I've said as much in other threads: Steve Jobs was every bit as much of a pitbull CEO as he was a head-in-the-clouds creative. Apple wouldn't be where it is today off the back of good ideas alone. It was Steve Jobs aggressiveness when it came to protecting and promoting their ideas that solidified that success. Tying competitors up in patent litigation. Strategic acquisitions to bolster their own product lines while simultaneously cutting competitors off at the pass. Constantly aware of what the competition is doing and preparing to answer back. Jobs was also incredibly forward thinking (people balk about closed ecosystems now, but seem to forget that the app store took off at a time when people wanted the "it just works" assurance that Steve was promising with Apple's closed system).

Iwata, in comparison, is not adept at any of these things. A more accurate summation would be that Satoru Iwata is all of Steve Jobs' bark and none of his bite. It's likely why they've initially returned to appealing to gamers with the Wii U. Maintaining the fleeting interest of the casual market was likely a bigger game than Iwata was prepared to play -- what with yearly product refreshes and having to keep your company moving near the speed of light to keep the interest of an audience not devoted to the hobby of gaming being the standard.

That said, Nintendo made a lot of wise choices in the past five years: they locked up Japan, which they feel is their cash cow market now largely abandoned by Sony and with Microsoft non-existent.

They also went on a hiring binge and got talent that was being laid off by other companies, and setup partnerships and joint-development opportunities with companies like Platinum and Mistwalker and Namco Bandai and Tecmo Koei - completely changing the way the majority of the game development community in Japan saw them. This took incredible time and effort frankly. Other than that, Nintendo has expanded Monolithsoft, Retro, and fostered relationships with a dozen smaller studios in Kyoto that are offshoots of employees from Konami, Square, etc.

They've also had to build out an entire OS team and built a social network through a partnership which they are managing internally. Nintendo also had to hire, over the past few years, tons of people in network engineering to bulk up on their core software abilities - unlike Microsoft which had people ready to go on that front. They are still lacking on this front but it's come a very long way and will improve - Sony is evidence of that. Even the Xbox has changed dramatically over the years.

More importantly: scaling up creative staff from say 1000 people to 3000 or more, for a company with such a unique workshop-like culture as Nintendo is really hard. Nintendo has the toughest hiring standards in the industry and have a very strong internal culture, and they are very careful about not ruining that - unlike Silicon Valley ponzi schemes that are trying to get bought in a few years and will hire anyone with a Stanford degree just to appease venture capitalists. Nintendo has had to exert tremendous effort to ensure they hire in a sustainable way where people work together and the culture thrives.

With what abilities they had and opportunities they saw I think they made the right choices.

The thing is, I don't disagree with any of this, nor have I argued any of it. But I do think there's a schism growing within Nintendo in how to approach the modern gaming landscape, and that this schism starts with Iwata; but I don't disregard some of the better recent decisions he's made. The issue that I see facing Nintendo now, regarding the points your brought up, is whether or not Iwata reacted in time. It's going to take Nintendo time, likely years, before we begin to see the results of a lot of this recent growth. But the Wii U is in trouble now. Not years from now. Years from now will be host to the PS4 and Xbox One in full swing. Years from now will see Google making a more overt push into gaming and home entertainment (with Apple undoubtedly following suit). Years from now will likely be too late. Hell, we know Nintendo's general plan for the Wii U leading into 2014 and already people are rightfully speculating that the jig might be up for the Wii U.

Sure, we can say Nintendo's recent growth will likely benefit the Wii U in its final years and definitely impact the console's successor, but it's not entirely unreasonable to be doubtful here, either. After all, most of this growth has been relegated to Japan, and while that will likely mean increased software output from Nintendo's usual players, it does nothing to address the West, and the fact that Western developers and western gaming culture has become increasingly important to the industry as a whole (whether you like it or not). I question what sort of change we can really see spearheaded by a man who has proven to not really care about the areas where Nintendo needs change the most.

In your world, they would have abandoned a few of the ideas above, and gone to the West where there were two camps: one were non-gaming executives running gaming companies fighting over the same pool of 1000-1200 developers, inflating salaries out of control, and desperate to try and release another shoot-bang game on HD consoles. Another group of people were proclaiming the end of traditional games as Zynga was going public and venture capitalists were dumping millions into Facebook games.

I'm sorry, but this is a fucking ridiculous jump. I never suggested Nintendo jump headfirst into any old fleeting trend. In my world, Nintendo would allow their regional divisions more autonomy to acknowledge and adapt to regional ideals and expectation. In my world NoA would be more like SCEA. In my world Nintendo would run almost exactly like it used to -- back when NoA actually had a say, and library of titles that were created under its care. A Nintendo where western devs like Rare were able to actually exist, thrive, and fill Nintendo's first party lineup with the variety that it's sorely lacking now. In no way was I suggesting Nintendo become the next fucking Zynga.

EDIT: Accidentally hit post instead of preview, but I really don't have more to add here. The rest of your post sort of drives home the same point - excusing Nintendo's current decisions, referencing how this worked for them in the past, discounting my point with the most ridiculous strawmen possible, and not acknowledging how their current decisions have negatively impacted the company today.
 
Regardless the holiday season is going to be interesting to watch. Either the Wii U does well or it doesn't. Plain and simple. They're prettymcuh repeating the launch with their offerings (I still feel this is a big mistake) but this time they have two new consoles to go up against. Make no mistake they are competing with them no matter what Nintendo says. Competing for the money of customers.

If Nintendo wants to make sure the Wii U sells I don't think their platformers are going to do it. At least not by themselves in the west. If they want to get through to parents they should be backing as much as possible the new Skylanders and Disney Infinity. Both are releasing on the Wii U. Both will be on the radar of many parents. It seems like a good path to sell the Wii U to these parents by showing them the better look version of the game compared to their current systems but by also offering a lower price point then the PS4/XBO.

If they were heading into the holidays with Mario Kart 8 and with a brand new, much more content packed Wii Sports I honestly would feel significantly better about their chances of doing well.

Without a signficiant price drop I honestly don't see the Wii U doing well at all. For kids the 3DS is the much better option with all the franchises Wii U is trying to launch with at a better price and more stacked library. They needed Mario Kart out this holiday. Donkey Kong is the type of game that can sell well with an established base and will sell decently to the established audience but is not something you put as the game to go up against PS4 and Xbone with on Black Friday with 3D World not coming out until December

Edit: On the topic of western Nintendo development, building studios may take years and I honestly wouldn't be as critical if Nintendo actually seemed like they were building up their western development, but outside of Retro, Nintendo has basically done nothing in the west in the face of a declining Japanese influence on the west. In the past winning Japan would have been a huge win for Nintendo and they could have leveraged that into more 3rd party support but without a strong western development and arm Nintendo is slowly becoming irrelevant to a large segment of the industry. And some might think that's a good thing, but that's not exactly what they promised investors before the Wii U launched. Now if Nintendo wants to retreat to Japan and have less of a worldwide focus than they are doing a good job. If not something has to give. The portable market has rapidly been decimated, and unless Nintendo does something radically different they are staring down the road of a large decline as a company.
 
yo blaming consumers is your first step on a road to disappointment

market conditions, now, that's a different story. but even then nintendo bares some of the blame for a failure to adapt or foresee in time
 
The latter: almost all of these companies failed miserably. Zynga is effectively on life support. There are a few small shops making tremendous money on these platforms, but it's a huge mess. The former? The jury is still out who will survive in the next five or ten years as we move towards real-world games with augmented reality and other types of gaming platforms like the Oculus Rift. Needless to say, few companies outside Activision made money in the last gen, and my bet is, EA might fold in another seven or ten years especially if they don't get to hold onto their exclusive sports licenses. I'll go out on a limb here: I believe EA is going to be nothing but a foot note in the pages of history. Nintendo is 120+ years old. They've seen dozens of EAs come and go over time.

1) The overall age of a company doesn't really have much of a bearing of its current performance or its ambitions, or its past performance in the video game sector. A better, less hyperbolic figure like "Nintendo's comprehensive presence in the video game sector" would have been more appropriate.

2) Just because Zynga, probably EA, and other Western companies have struggled doesn't mean there isn't value in Western development or Western business ideals. I'm not pretending to counter your argument with my predictions for more salient business strategies, but part of the strength of SCEA and Xbox throughout these past years can be defined by elements that Nintendo is lacking.
 
Vita and Wii U are nothing like PS4/XBO so using them as preliminary benchmarks is beyond futile.

Even if those consoles struggle, their reasons would be as far as disconnected from those two.

I'm only using them as they are the last two systems to launch.

PsVita was hyped as the "next generation portable", it had amazing graphics and new features. It was supposed to do extremely well, it bombed.
 
Without a signficiant price drop I honestly don't see the Wii U doing well at all. For kids the 3DS is the much better option with all the franchises Wii U is trying to launch with at a better price and more stacked library. They needed Mario Kart out this holiday. Donkey Kong is the type of game that can sell well with an established base and will sell decently to the established audience but is not something you put as the game to go up against PS4 and Xbone with on Black Friday with 3D World not coming out until December

I agree. The issue with Donkey Kong is the same issue with New Super Mario Bros U. That was what I was concerned about regarding the lessons they learned about the Wii. The 2D platformers did as well as they did because of the install base that was created thanks to launching the Wii with Wii Sports and Zelda and the following that up with Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, and Wii Fit. They were hitting different groups at the same time with those titles and smaller niche titles that sadly they just sent to die. The 2D platformers did not build the Wii audience. They benefited from them first and foremost and perhaps helped it expand some more but the bulk of the work was already done. This is why I was confused and concerned about launching the Wii U with NSMBU. Especially when they allowed the Wii to die in the last two years with no attempt to try to prepare the audience they built to move over to the Wii U in order to make something like NSMBU work.

It's a lesson they still haven't learned because they're doing it again.
 
Nintendo's game development and tenancies will never be like SCEA or anything of that kind. That's just... not what Nintendo is. The culture, the talent working at Nintendo, tastes and just general ideas that stems from within Nintendo is not one that relates to what people consider Western development in this context. And this idea that Retro could be the answer to this is not the right one either.
 
I'm only using them as they are the last two systems to launch.

PsVita was hyped as the "next generation portable", it had amazing graphics and new features. It was supposed to do extremely well, it bombed.
I'm not sure where this belief came from since Sony has usually been incompetent in the handheld space, never winning a single handheld war.

So while the potential was there, it was missing a lift. What was going to make it do so much better that the PSP also didn't try?
Edit: The loss of Monster Hunter also pretty much doomed it.

Either way, still not something worth comparing with to the PS4/XBO.
 
Nintendo's game development and tenancies will never be like SCEA or anything of that kind. That's just... not what Nintendo is. The culture, the talent working at Nintendo, tastes and just general ideas that stems from within Nintendo is not one that relates to what people consider Western development in this context. And this idea that Retro could be the answer to this is not the right one either.

...but that's exactly what Nintendo was pre-Iwata.
 
I agree. The issue with Donkey Kong is the same issue with New Super Mario Bros U. That was what I was concerned about regarding the lessons they learned about the Wii. The 2D platformers did as well as they did because of the install base that was created thanks to launching the Wii with Wii Sports and Zelda and the following that up with Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, and Wii Fit. They were hitting different groups at the same time with those titles and smaller niche titles that sadly they just sent to die. The 2D platformers did not build the Wii audience. They benefited from them first and foremost and perhaps helped it expand some more but the bulk of the work was already done. This is why I was confused and concerned about launching the Wii U with NSMBU. Especially when they allowed the Wii to die in the last two years with no attempt to try to prepare the audience they built to move over to the Wii U in order to make something like NSMBU work.

It's a lesson they still haven't learned because they're doing it again.

Well I think they're trying to hit different groups

Wii FIt-fitness
Wii Party- party game
Zelda- action adventure
Donkey Kong- 2d platformer
3D land - 3d platformer

With Pikmin and W101 hitting more niche audiences. I just think the end lineup falls kind of flat and don't particularly think many people care about Wii ____ anymore, especially after the disastrous flop of Wii Play Motion. I just think a lineup of Wii Sports 2, a new Zelda game ( I know its was impossible development wise), some kind of revival from Retro (doesn't have to be a shooter) and 3D World would appeal to a larger group of people. As it stands it kind of seems like Nintendo is playing to the core base of fans and trying to pull in as much cash as possible without thinking about expanding.
 
Nintendo's game development and tenancies will never be like SCEA or anything of that kind. That's just... not what Nintendo is. The culture, the talent working at Nintendo, tastes and just general ideas that stems from within Nintendo is not one that relates to what people consider Western development in this context. And this idea that Retro could be the answer to this is not the right one either.

I don't think they have to be nor do I think SCEA's model would fit Nintendo, but I do think at least investing in the west would have benefits for Nintendo. I mean just look at where Sony was 7 years ago about to launch the PS3 with the most arrogant team of people next to MS's group this year and Yamauchi N64. SCEA's growth this generation has been great for Sony, and if Nintendo actually had a competent western arm and development crew along with their dominant Japanese side it would be a force to be reckoned with.
 
So it raises the question, what did he mean when he gave his answer to the investor earlier this year, the answer that has been "misinterpreted"?
 
tehrik-e-insaaf deserves all the praise in the world for that post. THAT'S effort.

What an amazing post, tehrik. I disagree with a lot of your conclusions and intend to respond to some of them when I have the time, but I must say bravo on your presentation. Supremely well done, informative and thought provoking, and everything NeoGAF is meant to be.

Well respond in time, but it's an equally intensive undertaking, so hold with me :)

I don't knowif I'm more excited by tehrik-e-insaaf's amazing post, or the eventual response from Amir0x. Awesome!
 
That's their loss.

The industry is run by nitwits and consumers, collectively, become nitwits when presented with glamorous advertising.

Consider the fact that more people on Neogaf will purchase an Xbox One than a Wii U. Even the people of Neogaf, who should be more informed of what's happening, will actually pay money for a console that is nothing more than a trojan horse.

If Nintendo fails to succeed, it is not Nintendo's fault.
Um... what?

You just said, it's not a corporation's responsibility that they didn't design a product that appeals to consumers and developers, all while offending all developers and consumers by calling them "nitwits"?

Wtf? Am I reading this correctly?
 
I really don't get why people ignore NSMBU when they talk about how the system is lacking games and that 3D Land will spur sales. When asked why NSMBU "doesn't count" I've been told it's too similar to previous and recent iterations.

3D World is a sequel to a recent handheld iteration of 3D Mario. How does that make it fare better than NSMBU at spurring longer term sales?
It's fascinating how many people continue to seemingly conflate Iwata being personally likeable with being good at his job.
It's interesting the degree to which there's this misplaced affection towards the CEO of a major corporation. This goes for any company. I attribute it to the cult of personality he's built around the direct communication with consumers.
You simply can't accurately project anything into the future, whether that's a resurgence upward or... what you're projecting (i.e. down into irrelevance).
Only a resurgence upwards would be a change to the current situation.
We have to define what success means, if it's Wii success, hell no, if it is PS3 success, well, why not?
80M units is pretty unlikely given the current situation. The turnaround required is much greater than that of a system that had very obvious problems in it's value proposition, namely the ridiculous price.
How would you explain 3DS come back then? Wii U has very few exclusivess so far, and is very expensive for what people are used to.
They cut the price by 40% in Japan, they cut the price by 30% in the US.

They secured a major coup in Japan getting the Monster Hunter franchise exclusively; essentially stillborning the competition.

They have consolidated the remaining market for dedicated handheld devices in Western markets. Even then it has been in year over year decline.

The Wii U starts at $299, the same price as the PS2 launched at. Yes, it's the "gimped" model. The PS2 didn't include internal storage nor a game at that price either, iirc.

People bought 360s and bought Madden. People bought PS3s and bought Need for Speed.
That's their loss.

The industry is run by nitwits and consumers, collectively, become nitwits when presented with glamorous advertising.
The marketplace is not wrong for failing to see sufficient value proposition in a product you like simply because it helps you with your post-purchase rationalisation.
 
...but that's exactly what Nintendo was pre-Iwata.

I don't really get that. I'm being honest so sorry if I come across as ignorant. I mean truthfully I don't get that at all so maybe you could help me understand. During the NES era everything was pretty much Japan focused. Nothing was any more american or western focused then it is now. Mario. Metroid. Obscure stuff like Ice Climbers and other weird games. These IP took off in the west because most gamers were young and these games were totally fresh for its time. But make no mistake it was all Japanese centric stuff.

Snes was pretty much the same. I don't recall anything being particularly western focused. The reason why it seemed that way was because the only gaming companies out was pretty much Nintendo and Sega...two Japanese companies. And make no mistake outside of the US in Europe it was Sega who was seen as the cool kid. N64 to me and many others in Europe during that era was pretty niche, weird and just damn right awkward next to the PS1 as was the SNES to the Genesis. Maybe it's because you grew up with Nintendo and maybe it's image was different in the US or maybe we were all too infatuated with Mario at the time to care much because from where I was standing that wasn't the case.

As for 3rd party on Nintendo systems during that era...I guess that's what happens when you have a massive chunk of the market share. As soon as the PS1 released we saw where 3rd parties really wanted to hang out. And that was in pre Iwata days.
 
That's their loss.

The industry is run by nitwits and consumers, collectively, become nitwits when presented with glamorous advertising.

Consider the fact that more people on Neogaf will purchase an Xbox One than a Wii U. Even the people of Neogaf, who should be more informed of what's happening, will actually pay money for a console that is nothing more than a trojan horse.

If Nintendo fails to succeed, it is not Nintendo's fault.


Jeez this is the most desperate thing I've read in a while. Sorry to tell you but Nintendo is not Jesus and people who haven't seen the light aren't dumb. People will buy Xbox One because it has games that appeal to them. People will ignore Wii U because it doesn't. End of story. The last sentence is something I would expect to read from someone who can't comprehend others opinions. But I'm sure you are excluding Nintendo from the nitwits you are talking about because they are saving grace of the industry and plan to lower development costs for developers until they release their next console at which point it will be okay to have hardware that allows developers to kill themselves just like PS3/360 budgets were terrible until Nintendo released Wii U and now PS3/360 hardware is just fine and PS4/Xbone are going to kill the industry.
 
I'm not sure where this belief came from since Sony has usually been incompetent in the handheld space, never winning a single handheld war.

So while the potential was there, it was missing a lift. What was going to make it do so much better that the PSP also didn't try?
Edit: The loss of Monster Hunter also pretty much doomed it.

Either way, still not something worth comparing with to the PS4/XBO.

when the vita's US$250 price was announced , people expected it to be priced higher and thus thought it was a bargin. the psp lacked touch screen functionality which the vita offered , the vita was even hyped by some as an ipod / ipad / tablet alternative / killer .

i agree the loss of monster hunter to nintedo really hurt vitas chances though.
 
So, shooters? Or "darker, edgier" games? Because if that's what you mean, then there's a little game called Bayonetta 2.
Are you saying Bayonetta 2 is going to appeal to the same consumer base that Goldeneye 007 appealed to?

Goldeneye 007 was a massive seller and a system seller for the N64.

Bayonetta 2 is a niche title.
 
Are you saying Bayonetta 2 is going to appeal to the same consumer base that Goldeneye 007 appealed to?

Goldeneye 007 was a massive seller and a system seller for the N64.

Bayonetta 2 is a niche title.

I don't particularly remember Goldeneye's impact in Europe. Maybe it's just me *shrug*

Felt really niche to me back then as did the whole of Nintendo back then and even now in a weird way.
 
So, shooters? Or "darker, edgier" games? Because if that's what you mean, then there's a little game called Bayonetta 2.

Not just shooters. Dark, gritty, new IPs made to appeal to western gamers by a Nintendo 1st party studio that had the kind of autonomy to do that sort of thing. Platinum could fill this niche somewhat, but only time will really tell on that one.

I don't really get that. I'm being honest so sorry if I come across as ignorant. I mean truthfully I don't get that at all so maybe you could help me understand. During the NES era everything was pretty much Japan focused. Nothing was any more american or western focused then it is now. Mario. Metroid. Obscure stuff like Ice Climbers and other weird games. These IP took off in the west because most gamers were young and these games were totally fresh for its time. But make no mistake it was all Japanese centric stuff.

Snes was pretty much the same. I don't recall anything being particularly western focused. The reason why it seemed that way was because the only gaming companies out was pretty much Nintendo and Sega...two Japanese companies. And make no mistake outside of the US in Europe it was Sega who was seen as the cool kid. N64 to me and many others in Europe during that era was pretty niche, weird and just damn right awkward next to the PS1 as was the SNES to the Genesis. Maybe it's because you grew up with Nintendo and maybe it's image was different in the US or maybe we were all too infatuated with Mario at the time to care much because from where I was standing that wasn't the case.

As for 3rd party on Nintendo systems during that era...I guess that's what happens when you have a massive chunk of the market share. As soon as the PS1 released we saw where 3rd parties really wanted to hang out. And that was in pre Iwata days.

Read this: http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2013/03/14/howard-lincoln-kicking-ass-before-reggie-came-along/

Basically, the NoA of old played a much bigger role in the types of games that came to Nintendo consoles.

But, for me at least, it all comes down to Rare. Rare in its prime made the games that made me love Nintendo hardware. Rare's games contributed greatly to giving Nintendo the kind of traction it needed to really dominate in the US.

A studio like Rare is the exact type that couldn't grow under Nintendo as it's run now.
 
People will buy Xbox One because it has games that appeal to them. People will ignore Wii U because it doesn't. End of story. .

mario 3d , mario kart, bayonetta 2 , wonderful 101 , zelda , pikmin , lego city, smash brothers, donkey kong etc don't appeal to people ?
 
mario 3d , mario kart, bayonetta 2 , wonderful 101 , zelda , pikmin , lego city, smash brothers, donkey kong etc don't appeal to people ?

Not to the mass market. If Lego City Stories did, it would've already pushed a lot of Wii U systems, and it didn't. The other bolded are niche titles.
 
mario 3d , mario kart, bayonetta 2 , wonderful 101 , zelda , pikmin , lego city, smash brothers, donkey kong etc don't appeal to people ?

It was like 2-3 M less than Super Mario 64, Nintendo 64's best selling title.

Yup. 3rd best selling game on the platform, after only Super Mario 64 and Mario Kart 64. 8 M units LTD.

Sold more than Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

No doubt it was a big seller like I said. Just never felt Nintendo's relevancy in Europe at all until GameCube really. Nintendo was like the epitome of niche here.

Unless you want to talk about the Gameboy and Pokémon that is!
 
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