Support NeoGAF

[zoukka]

Pretty small sample size, 9,000.

I don't claim to have extensive knowledge on the matter, but you guys sure are adamant in trying to prove me wrong :b whatever the numbers may be, a PS4 without ps+ is a gimped ass device.

Also to my knowledge 9k of such a niche group is more than enough to form a valid quantitive poll.

 

[MogCakes]

eh, I think you are being pretty nebulous about such a claim.

I fully admit my decision has been made since May.. DRM was a factor, possibly even a big one.. but there were also plenty of other factors, for me probably the biggest being that a) multi-platform games WILL run better on PS4.. even if only .000001% better or 30% better. Unless the framerate is locked at 30fps with zero dips, and resolution and filtering/AA are identical, there is almost no scenario in which it won't perform better. and b) I will be spending $100 less and not getting hardware I don't care about.

Now I don't think there is anything at all premature about that. Everything I stated is fact.. Nothing has to do with "well blah is more appealing to me in the short term so go [SYSTEM OF CHOICE] go!!!".

Now I'm not saying there aren't people like you are saying.. but at the same time not everyone who has made a decision now is as you are saying. And heck... there are even XBONE-only buyers who I would say fall outside of your description (i.e. someone only buying one console next gen and wanting MS Studios games.. )

If you aren't a fanboy then you don't fall within the group of people my post referenced that goes for both PS4 and 180 buyers. My intent was to define exactly what fanboys do and why, so it was bound to be nebulous as I'm not singling out any one person, rather a type of person. It was a fancy way of saying 'brand loyalty is bad, fanboys suck' but I decided to elaborate.

 

[Freki]

Pretty small sample size, 9,000.

The importance of large sample sizes is extremly overated - it's way more important to make sure the sample is reflective of the group you want to analyze...
As an example: Election predictions for a country of 80million can be made using a sample size of 2501 with a margin of error of +- 2.5%

background information

 

[BlastProcessing]

yeah, I don't know why sony hasn't shown anything with the UI besides the one leaked (or was it leaked?) video. FWIW the video showed a UI that IMHO was easily on par with XBONE. And by IMHO I mean: instant app/game switching from/to UI, social features and communication in UI overlayed on apps/games, jump in/out from most apps/games, etc. Things that DO NOT interest me for xbone specifically would include the snap stuff (ipad), IE (ipad), WinRT (ipad or windows on my tv if I cared enough), live TV (only have OTA which won't work with XBONE), skype (I do NOT want to be in a video call while playing a game or watching a show.. fwiw Google Hangouts ftl as well)

and really the stuff that MS does bring to the table in their UI compared to sony either gets chalked up to: I can't use it, I am unlikely to use it (or will use it on my tablet), or I really really DON'T want to use it while I would be doing other stuff on the xbone (in which case again I can do it on the tablet)

I get that the UI stuff looks interesting... but are you really going to video skype or surf the web on the TV while watching a movie or playing a game (as opposed to say doing either or both from a tablet in your lap)? If so that's cool.. just doesn't seem very compelling to me.

The UI video wasn't leaked. Sony showed it on its official E3 stream after the conference.

As far as OSes go. I am in the Apple camp that says that a good OS gets out of the way and lets the Apps control the experience. It makes for a simpler and more consistant UI while also encouraging users to actually download apps.

 

[Coxy]

The importance of large sample sizes is extremly overated - it's way more important to make sure the sample is reflective of the group you want to analyze...
Election predictions for a country of 80million can be made using a sample size of 2501 with a margin of error of +- 2.5%

backround information

the actual problem: "The Online Gaming 2013 report was conducted through an online survey"

asked only people online if they ever go online, can you see the problem here?

 

[kaching]

First google search result claims the ratio is already way over half.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/npd-72-percent-of-us-gamers-play-online-6407855

There's a reason I said "console gamers" because I'm fully aware that if you throw in other platforms like PC and mobile, as this survey does, the ratio is higher. Console gamers aren't there yet, but more will certainly be going online this gen, just as F2P games become more and more commonplace.

 

[Freki]

the actual problem: "The Online Gaming 2013 report was conducted through an online survey"

asked only people online if they ever go online, can you see the problem here?

I have no idea which methodology was used by the NPD group to get their results.
I only stated that a relatively small sample size doesn't say much about the quality of a surveys result.

 

[saelz8]

I bought an issue of EDGE at the airport in San Francisco. It's a very well put together magazine, IMO.

 

[Freki]

I bought an issue of EDGE at the airport in San Francisco. It's a very well put together magazine, IMO.

bulletpoints please ;-)

 

[ballerusk]

At what time of the day is it usually released on iPad? Since it will come out July 4th, which is in about 45 minutes (UK time).

 

[zoukka]

Umm.. I was there the week AitD came out for the PC from Infogrammes. Same with RE in 96 on the PSX. There is literally nothing TLoU does to put itself OUTSIDE of the genre. It is survival horror pure and simple. Stuff like tank controls and keys are mechanics of specific titles in the genre, not mechanics o the genre itself. It's like saying Sonic 1 isn't a platformer because it doesn't have warp tubes or swimming.

So what are the genre specific mechanics in survival horror. To me at first glance, backtracking, limited movement, puzzles and enemies you should avoid are all part of the recipe, from which TloU has one aspect down. Videogame genres are often defined very loosely so it makes this discussion almost impossible though.

 

[jond76]

except it has for years on the PC(?)

I do think they should have made the entire digital library concept an opt-in, so that the disc could act as both.

I understand the hare for the DRM, but I really liked the disc-as-download idea. Discless play sounded great. I wish I could opt in to use my disc as a download.

 

[borghe]

So what are the genre specific mechanics in survival horror. To me at first glance, backtracking, limited movement, puzzles and enemies you should avoid are all part of the recipe, from which TloU has one aspect down. Videogame genres are often defined very loosely so it makes this discussion almost impossible though.

IMHO very simply put.. A horror atmosphere in which you have limited resources.. Resource rationing that often requires you to decide on how best to approach a tense situation.

Playing on hard, my ammo and health kits are very limited, shivs are like gold boulion, and there have been a number of situations where it simply wouldn't have been worthwhile to take the time to kill everything in the area vs sneaking past. As well a couple of times so far where running/fleeing was the best option, etc.

The funniest part is that many of the genuine "horror" set pieces don't even involve zombies. ND has created a game where the human element provides just as much horror as the monsters do.

Two people who have played the game discussing it IMHO the one who doesn't feel it's survival horror is going to have the much tougher and more involved time trying to get his point across than the guy who feels it is. As I said earlier, the game is literally survival-horror. If it were a movie it would clearly be filed under horror, not action/adventure.

Not really sure how it can be argued otherwise. I mean the only points made in this thread are that it is missing extremely specific mechanics present in a different game series, not even that the feel of the game isn't survival horror.

 

[CadetMahoney]

So you don't think that a history of lack of a long term commitment in first party offering is important?

Depends how you look at it, MS probably looks at software sales. There are some 2:1 leads in core games in MS' favour.

Also ppl don't go into Gamestop and actually care whether a game is 1st/2nd/3rd party when picking a title, at least I haven't seen any evidence for it. 1st party has it's own share of mediocrity and bombs too.

 

[moho-foe]

Not really sure how it can be argued otherwise. I mean the only points made in this thread are that it is missing extremely specific mechanics present in a different game series, not even that the feel of the game isn't survival horror.

yeah, pretty much.

the drive of the game is to survive through any means necessary and the theme is one of horror (zombie apocalypse/ avoiding horrible, violent death).

 

[Deified Data]

Ps4 kinda looks like a black wii in that cover.

It always has.

 

[Akainu]

...there are people that think The Last of Us isn't survival horror?

It always has.

What?

 

[Dunlop]

Speaking of Edge covers, the mag was always "bold" with the covers (to sell more copies):

That actually makes the cover make sense

 

[AppleSmack]

Can I subscribe to edge for 1 quarter and avoid paying the rest of the year? I would like the magazine as a great news and opinion source until the PS4 launches but I don't think I'll have much of a reason to keep it after that so I'm not willing to subscribe for the year. Anyone know if this is possible?

 

[lastflowers]

Can I subscribe to edge for 1 quarter and avoid paying the rest of the year? I would like the magazine as a great news and opinion source until the PS4 launches but I don't think I'll have much of a reason to keep it after that so I'm not willing to subscribe for the year. Anyone know if this is possible?

I'd just go to the local Barnes and Noble and buy it from there.

 

[AppleSmack]

I'd just go to the local Barnes and Noble and buy it from there.

They have the latest issue of the magazine?

 

[lastflowers]

They have the latest issue of the magazine?

At least the last time I checked they did. Might depend on the location/size of store, though.

 

[Biker19]

except it has for years on the PC(?)

That's because PC's an open platform in which nobody owns it. Home gaming consoles, however, are a different matter because they're closed platforms in which you're under the mercy of either Nintendo, Microsoft, or Sony right after you sign the TOS agreement.

 

[Mrbob]

Can I subscribe to edge for 1 quarter and avoid paying the rest of the year? I would like the magazine as a great news and opinion source until the PS4 launches but I don't think I'll have much of a reason to keep it after that so I'm not willing to subscribe for the year. Anyone know if this is possible?

You can through the Ipad app. That is currently how I have my subscription. 3 month option. I believe you can still get one extra month free too.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

So is there any sort of summery of the article? More specifically why there making this statement? What are they're reasons?

 

[FuturusX]

Little trip down memory lane.

Anybody remember the Edge cover fiasco involving feathers?

I bought it. Now that was a bold cover.

 

[CLEEK]

Pretty small sample size, 9,000.

Whenever someone claims a statistic is invalid due to small sample size, they're just highlighting their own lack of knowledge about sample sizes, sigma, statistical analysis or anything related to the subject.

9,000 is at the very top end of sample sizes and would give nearly 99% accuracy rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Soc_participants.shtml

 

[twobear]

Nothing stopping them from allowing PS Mobile on there.

So because Sony could do something, it's as good as their already having done so. Gotcha.

Funny how this argument is stupid and obviously wrong when talking about how Sony could implement DRM, but is apparently perfectly valid when talking about how they could open an app store on PS4 or could invest billions of dollars in their own servers for cloud functionality, huh?

Microsoft could also allow self-publishing for indies: so presumably, it's as good as done?

Or it could be that hypotheticals are bad arguments, no?

 

[Uno Venova]

Whenever someone claims a statistic is invalid due to small sample size, they're just highlighting their own lack of knowledge about sample sizes, sigma, statistical analysis or anything related to the subject.

9,000 is at the very top end of sample sizes and would give nearly 99% accuracy rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...icipants.shtml

For this conversation, about what 200 million console owners online habits are, what is a 9,000 person poll supposed to do?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

So because Sony could do something, it's as good as their already having done so. Gotcha.

Funny how this argument is stupid and obviously wrong when talking about how Sony could implement DRM, but is apparently perfectly valid when talking about how they could open an app store on PS4 or could invest billions of dollars in their own servers for cloud functionality, huh?

Microsoft could also allow self-publishing for indies: so presumably, it's as good as done?

Or it could be that hypotheticals are bad arguments, no?

But in this particular case there is precedent. Sony has Playstation Mobile on Vita. I see no reason for them to not allow PS Mobile on PS4. May give that service a much needed shot in the arm.

 

[Steroyd]

So what are the genre specific mechanics in survival horror. To me at first glance, backtracking, limited movement, puzzles and enemies you should avoid are all part of the recipe, from which TloU has one aspect down. Videogame genres are often defined very loosely so it makes this discussion almost impossible though.

Survival with limited resources against enemies you should avoid.

Putting puzzles, limited movement and backtracking as genre defining mechanics tells me that you don't look past the old Resident Evils and Silent Hills, where TloU is taking the survival part more literal and taking it into the modern era.

 

[twobear]

But in this particular case there is precedent. Sony has Playstation Mobile on Vita. I see no reason for them to not allow PS Mobile on PS4. May give that service a much needed shot in the arm.

I actually think the concept of an app store on these things is kind of pointless. App stores on mobile devices are great because it turns your iPhone (or whatever) into a swiss pocket knife device. The OS X version is good too because it just operates as a store front and updater for apps that otherwise have regular functionality. But on a non-mobile device with a sandbox UI it strikes me as completely worthless. I can access a Metro version of Wikipedia...on my TV? Whoopee. I have Windows 8 and I literally never use Metro apps.

Either way, 'there's nothing to stop them...' (even with precedent) is not 'they've done it'.

 

[Darklor01]

Every Edge gaming magazine cover through 2012:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/every-edge-magazine-cover-ever/

Thought some people might want to see some of their covers. Very little MS on covers from what I've seen at a cursory glance. I see a lot more Nintendo(in the past), and plenty of Sony.

 

[N2NOther]

Omg Wikipedia are you serious right now?

There's no backtracking where you can go back to look for items or keys to move to the next area. Theres not even Maps. there's no puzzles ( Ladders dont count).

granted I've only played up to

Spoiler

just reached Pittsburgh after getting truck

But so far it's a 3rd person shooter moving from one corridor to another with cuts ends after each section.

1st of all, there are puzzles. They're just not obtuse and ridiculous. Every single time you need to get Ellie across water is a puzzle. If it wasn't then the solution would be the same every time. The only thing that is the same is the mechanic if her stepping on a pallet and Joel pushing it. These are not complex in any way but they're still puzzles.

And I very much think The Last of Us contains a great deal of survival horror elements and gameplay.

 

[WrenchNinja]

lol pretty shameful, if you ask me. It's completely counter to what their job is suppose to be as a supposed magazine for gamers. It's one thing to criticize the errors and missteps of one platform while complimenting the successes of another, but to delve into the territory of open promotion and "seeming" all out assault on one or the other is a joke, and makes them no better than your average forum troll. What is that saying to people who see and want games that only exist on the Xbox One? What is this saying to people who enjoy Xbox Live or the services Microsoft offers? It's saying that you can't take edge seriously, and there is no clearer sign that they don't speak in an impartial manner for all gamers.

Either way, this subject isn't worthy anymore time than I've already given it, which is just a single post.

No, I think its saying you chose...poorly. If there is anyone thats hard to take seriously, its a drm defender and someone who went out of their way to try to discredit cboat.

 

[Omnistalgic]

I don't claim to have extensive knowledge on the matter, but you guys sure are adamant in trying to prove me wrong :b whatever the numbers may be, a PS4 without ps+ is a gimped ass device.

Also to my knowledge 9k of such a niche group is more than enough to form a valid quantitive poll.

ur effin opinion....nothing more nothing less. that's all users r trying to explain to u and it seems youre having trouble comprehending. I've only took 3-4 games online this entire generation and will cancel my PS+ if the games aren't appealing to me anymore...point is there's a bunch of gamers who will never sign up for PS+ and wont feel its "gimped" in any way, ur opinion doesn't represent everyone and likely not even a majority... millions of users never take the console online....

not trying to debate numbers either....but there's simply still a large number of users who don't care about online. so to them it won't be gimped with or without plus. I agree that it sucks its behind a pay wall. just trying to offer perspective because I personally don't give two craps about the pay wall, and its only logical there's a significant number of ppl who feel the same

 

[Visualante2]

Every Edge gaming magazine cover through 2012:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/every-edge-magazine-cover-ever/

Thought some people might want to see some of their covers. Very little MS on covers from what I've seen at a cursory glance. I see a lot more Nintendo(in the past), and plenty of Sony.

It's difficult to judge this because Edge is a small magazine. They don't try to compete with Game Informer or similarly big magazines. I think that's why you get a lot of European and Japanese games that Game Informer doesn't have time to care about. I get the feeling the only reason Edge got Halo stories is because they love Bungie so much.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Not for me though Im getting Xbone

 

[MercuryLS]

Is the digital version of this issue available yet?

 

[borghe]

Is the digital version of this issue available yet?

My iPad app says "nope"

 

[BigDaddyFatSack]

This will be the first magazine I buy since the OG Xbox days.

 

[Odrion]

except it has for years on the PC(?)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7586-Why-PC-Gaming-Gets-Away-With-It

 

[travisbickle]

This thread is still going?

It's a British magazine, Brits don't care about gesture switching between HBO and Fantasy League apps.

 

[Visualante2]

This thread is still going?

It's a British magazine, Brits don't care about gesture switching between HBO and Fantasy League apps.

They will if Sky takes the bait.

 

[ShyGuy]

Is the digital version of this issue available yet?

My iPad app says "nope"

My iPad app also says "nope" and it's July 4th for me.

How long does it normally take to appear in the app store relative to the street date!? (iOS Newsstand)

 

[redcrayon]

Hey Zoukka, I'd like to respond to some of your points- have quoted you multiple times so your context doesn't get lost

Originally Posted by zoukka:
True and by purchasing a PS4 you support online paywalls compared to the preceeding platform and the Wii U.

I look at it the other way around- I didn't buy a PS3 at launch as the high price for free online made it feel like I was subsidising features I didn't want. I'd rather have a cheaper Playstation where those that want online can pay the extra subsidy.

Yep it's entirely possible to have a gimped PS4 while supporting the publisher that wants you to pay for the full experience.

I'll rephrase: "gimped to me and for most of the gamer populace".

I don't claim to have extensive knowledge on the matter, but you guys sure are adamant in trying to prove me wrong :b whatever the numbers may be, a PS4 without ps+ is a gimped ass device.

Also to my knowledge 9k of such a niche group is more than enough to form a valid quantitive poll.

I've had thousands of hours of play out of my PS3 without playing online once, and don't feel my console was 'gimped' or that my experience wasn't 'full' for preferring to enjoy quality single player games at the expense of online, the same way I have for almost 30 years. PS+ for online play on PS4 is optional, not required for 'a non-gimped-ass device', which is the way it should be, so that people like me aren't subsidising those that want the servers etc.

A huge amount of people don't care about online. As to your poll, that's just a US-only one. Even if 'way over half' of US gamers play online, that's very different to 'most of the gamer populace' worldwide. One of the reasons MS are in trouble is by extrapolating from US data and assuming their habits are true for the majority of gamers that don't live there. I actually agree with you about sample sizes, but even limiting the argument to only the US that's still 28% of the biggest market that don't play online in 2013. That's a very good reason to not make it mandatory.

While we are talking about features, why only make it about online play? I also don't use PS Home, Netflix, Lovefilm or any of the TV/music/film/social networking/PSP/Vita crossplay functions on the PS3 and wont use their equivalents on next-gen consoles either- to me they are all just as superfluous as online gaming. These days games consoles can do shitloads, if anyone genuinely uses them for 100% of their capability, they are in an extreme minority.

Any games console expecting me to automatically subsidise other people's online play is one I won't be buying, what on earth is wrong with PS4 being comparatively cheaper than PS3 while making online an optional extra? PS+ doesn't even sound like a bad deal if you like online play.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I don't know about D4...but your putting a lot of faith into Crimson Dragon.

A game that has been delayed for how long? That looked no better than a 360 game. That went from regular controller, to kinetic, to regular.

As much as I like Panzer Dragoon, this is going to disappoint.

Yeah, I have a soft spot for Panzer Dragoon. I won't deny that I'm perhaps being more lenient and optimistic about it than I really should be given it's development history and the fact that it was once a Kinect only title.

I guess we'll see, but I have faith the game will at least be decent and hopefully it will sell enough so we see an RPG sequel as has been teased.

I mean it's essentially a new Panzer Dragoon. How can I not be excited and hopeful for its success?

 

[M°°nblade]

MS shuttered multiple studios last generation, didn't open any to replace them, and are now suddenly in a mad scramble to open studios and push out early XB1 titles.

Investing strongly on the doorstep of a new generation isn't a commitment to first party software. Expanding your first party studios and supporting the console you have out with major new titles through the launch of your new console is a commitment to first party software.

Case in point: I don't know who the hell even works at Black Tusk so why would I have any interest in a game they're making? I'm not eagerly anticipating the next game from Nihilistic and they've at least made something before.

Meanwhile I know what Naughty Dog brings to the table. I know what Sucker Punch brings to the table. I know what Guerrilla Games is capable of. I know that at worst Sony has damn near a dozen very strong first party studios that turn out at least "good" games, with several of them more than capable of hitting a home run every time up to the plate.

MS could have had something like that, if they gave a shit about first party development. Instead they let Bungie walk because they just wanted a Halo cow to milk (and now have one with 343 apparently). They sunk the PGR franchise by not picking up Bizarre Creations once they were outside the X360's launch window. Shut down FASA and let Weismann take the IPs with him. Doomed Crackdown to irrelevance when they chose not to sign Realtime Worlds up for a multi-game commitment. Have had a massive talent exodus from Rare because they've changed corporate culture and restricted their freedom to create. Had a similarly massive talent exodus from Lionhead while face-stabbing the Fable brand with a mediocre 3rd game followed by a shitty Kinect spin off.

I could go on. Suffice to say these are not the actions of someone looking to build a strong first party division. Lip service and random dollar amounts thrown at the problem on the cusp of a new generation isn't enough to bait me in. Show the love all generation long if you want to claim a commitment to first party software.

What bothers me the most about MS is that, nothing they announce, feels authentic.

You have this bunch of suits give a presentation to cater to the shareholders, wearing expensive business shirts, bragging about shutting down the second hand market..

Then those same people put on some 'gaming culture' Tshirts for E3 to cater to core gamers.

Who are you trying to fool? We know you're not a gamer. Stop acting/dressing like one.

 

[boredandlazy]

Who are you trying to fool? We know you're not a gamer. Stop acting/dressing like one.

Gamers dress like that?

 

[qa_engineer]

Gamers dress like that?

What he means is that he's trying too hard to look like a gamer. If you are yourself then we as gamers would find his ridiculous outfit believable. But in this case we know this guy isn't a gamer. Maybe he is and I'm just hating on his ugly T-shirt and blazer look.