White people can't experience racism?
- Thread starter Choke on the Magic
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kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Just saw this on Twitter. Pretty much hits the nail on the head.
https://twitter.com/TransGriot/status/357688050467348481
https://twitter.com/TransGriot/status/357688050467348481
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And neither goes away if anybody holds on to notions of either.
So if I see someone black on the news doing something bad, I'm OK to feel angry at all black people? Really?
You should read a history book, dude.
rudieboy77
Member
Fear is the root of many things including racism. You cannot control how others treat you, you can only control how you react.
"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.
When ever I find myself angry, I try to stop and find out what I am fearful of. This is advice as to how I try and deal with things take it if it is useful, if not ignore it.
"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.
When ever I find myself angry, I try to stop and find out what I am fearful of. This is advice as to how I try and deal with things take it if it is useful, if not ignore it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yep. This is sort of the root behind why some white people are afraid of soon becoming a statistical minority in our generation. They know that minorities aren't treated well by the powerful majority. It's interesting how this role reversal isn't clear to some people.
Because you were saying (or maybe I'm misinterpreted what you were saying?) that disadvantaged minorities have legitimate reason to be racist, where as white folks don't.
Just to clarify, yes I think whites are very fortunate when it comes to racism and don't come into contact nearly as much as other people from other races who suffer from it much more. I also think it is ok for minorities to harbor resentment towards whites for all the cruel and unfair bullshit they have had to endure and its existence is understandable.
However it is not ok to absolve offenders from committing an inhumane and horrible crime no matter what race a victim is a part of, even if that victim is white as rare as it may be.
However it is not ok to absolve offenders from committing an inhumane and horrible crime no matter what race a victim is a part of, even if that victim is white as rare as it may be.
When people discuss racism there are essentially two things they mean.
First and foremost they're referring to specific instances of direct discrimination, prejudice, or other forms of ill-treatment due to one's perceived race or ethnicity. When people claim all Jews are cheap, the Irish are drunks, and white people have no rhythm, these are examples of such behavior. Perpetuating stereotypes of other groups is seen as socially unacceptable broadly due to the fact that it's ignorant and divisive, and is considered offensive essentially because it attempts to rob individuals of their autonomous humanity.
However the second and more severe meaning people are referring to is when the above is leveraged in combination with inequities in social, economic, and political power, which is a form of [social|economic|political] oppression and not simply divisive behavior. This is a distinction many people have a difficult time understanding, eg why saying white people can't jump isn't meaningfully-comparable to claiming Mexican people are lazy, or that black people are criminals. Returning to the examples I first gave, the idea of Jewish greed has been used historically as a means to support the systematic oppression of Jewish people; the idea of Irish drunkenness has been used historically as a means to support the disenfranchisement of Irish Americans. When the powerful perpetuate divisiveness as a means to enforce inequity, that's what people tend to really mean when they discuss pervasive racism.
First and foremost they're referring to specific instances of direct discrimination, prejudice, or other forms of ill-treatment due to one's perceived race or ethnicity. When people claim all Jews are cheap, the Irish are drunks, and white people have no rhythm, these are examples of such behavior. Perpetuating stereotypes of other groups is seen as socially unacceptable broadly due to the fact that it's ignorant and divisive, and is considered offensive essentially because it attempts to rob individuals of their autonomous humanity.
However the second and more severe meaning people are referring to is when the above is leveraged in combination with inequities in social, economic, and political power, which is a form of [social|economic|political] oppression and not simply divisive behavior. This is a distinction many people have a difficult time understanding, eg why saying white people can't jump isn't meaningfully-comparable to claiming Mexican people are lazy, or that black people are criminals. Returning to the examples I first gave, the idea of Jewish greed has been used historically as a means to support the systematic oppression of Jewish people; the idea of Irish drunkenness has been used historically as a means to support the disenfranchisement of Irish Americans. When the powerful perpetuate divisiveness as a means to enforce inequity, that's what people tend to really mean when they discuss pervasive racism.
"I hate white people" is not a powerful opinion. If you say it to a white person, it might offend them, but it's not oppressive, while the hatred of Black people (or any minority, really) is an extremely common opinion in Europe, its former colonies, and most of Asia. Very few white or Asian people openly express their hatred of Black people, and even less would identify as racists, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people around the world who are not of African descent look down on Black people, most often unconsciously.
I don't think that George Zimmerman would ever identify as a racist, but if Trayvon was a white child I really doubt he would have been shot just for being outside at night. Society and the media do a pretty good job of accidentally conditioning non-Black people into thinking that they're more likely to be violent, and the Martin case shows that this has really devastating ramifications.
cubicle47b
Member
I don't know who the first person was to try to redefine racism so it only meant institutional racism but they're probably assholes. "This will confuse the shit out of everyone we talk to!" "Perfect!"
Perhaps not an individual black person. But as a race? A group of people? The negative feelings black people held toward whites has morphed over a couple centuries, changing from fear to hate, being passed down like a meme through generations, a slow flame being stoked time and again as an entire demographic is reminded that the country is slanted against them. No excuses are being made. But like that tweet kittens posted efficiently explains, the contexts behind the respective prejudiced views are different.
We're speaking in broad strokes of millions of people. General feelings. Personal experiences and views become a drop in the bucket in the macro of race relations.
So, with any semantic question like this one, there are several ways we can go. One is to sling around dictionary definitions and sociological concepts and run around in circles arguing about what a word really means (answer: at bottom nothing. It has no inherent meaning, it's just a referent.)
Or, we can do something a little differently, and try to dig down and figure out the real question we're asking. When there's a semantic argument like this, I've found that it's most often because we're arguing about some totally different underlying question, using word definitions as a proxy for that argument.
There are several possibilities for the underlying question here, and I suspect different people are angling after different questions. Here are a few possibilities:
-can an individual white person ever be the subject of negative behavior from an individual due to their race? (obviously yes)
-can an individual white person ever be the subject of negative behavior from an institution, or an individual representing an institution, due to their race? (again, obviously yes)
-do white people in general have an equivalent level of experiences where they're disadvantaged due to race, whether by individuals or institutions, as black people? (obviously not)
-is it possible for specific individual white people to have experiences with racism that are equal to or worse than individual black people? (again, yes--the bell curves overlap at some point)
Now, of course, because this we're humans and we have feelings and whatnot, there are several other entangled things we might be trying to do:
-express annoyance at other people belittling or mocking things that have happened to us
-express annoyance at our group being attacked, which feels just like an attack against us personally, when we personally have done nothing wrong
-signal our political team
-probably a bunch of other stuff, I dunno, I don't know everything.
Or, since this thread was a response to a specific post in another thread, we might really be arguing about one of these questions:
-in a thread where members are sharing stories of racism they've experienced, is it ok and appropriate for white people to also share stories? (well, that depends. Are you wanting to share your story in answer to the thread's question, or because you are uncomfortable with the fact that minorities experience a whole lot more racism more often and want to try to balance things out in the thread? In the former case, go ahead, in the latter, come on dude.)
-in a thread where members are sharing stories of racism they've experienced, is it ok for some members to tell others that their stories aren't really racism? (well, I'd think really hard before doing it. It's not cool to belittle other people's problems and experiences that way, even when they are orders of magnitude less bad than your own or someone else's. This, for the record, is why I think "first world problems" is a bullshit meme that needs to die. Oh, and this also applies to people trying to explain away people's stories with "well, but maybe it wasn't really racism but xyz was happening!" Yeah, maybe. But how many "well, but maybes" do you need to go through before you figure out that no, really, it's fucking racism?)
Anyway. I think it's generally useful in this sort of argument to take a moment, and pause, and ask yourself what question you're really trying to answer. And if maybe, possibly, other people who you think are being stubborn asshole jerks might be trying to answer a different question.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around, does it make a sound? I dunno, depends on what question you're really asking!
Or, we can do something a little differently, and try to dig down and figure out the real question we're asking. When there's a semantic argument like this, I've found that it's most often because we're arguing about some totally different underlying question, using word definitions as a proxy for that argument.
There are several possibilities for the underlying question here, and I suspect different people are angling after different questions. Here are a few possibilities:
-can an individual white person ever be the subject of negative behavior from an individual due to their race? (obviously yes)
-can an individual white person ever be the subject of negative behavior from an institution, or an individual representing an institution, due to their race? (again, obviously yes)
-do white people in general have an equivalent level of experiences where they're disadvantaged due to race, whether by individuals or institutions, as black people? (obviously not)
-is it possible for specific individual white people to have experiences with racism that are equal to or worse than individual black people? (again, yes--the bell curves overlap at some point)
Now, of course, because this we're humans and we have feelings and whatnot, there are several other entangled things we might be trying to do:
-express annoyance at other people belittling or mocking things that have happened to us
-express annoyance at our group being attacked, which feels just like an attack against us personally, when we personally have done nothing wrong
-signal our political team
-probably a bunch of other stuff, I dunno, I don't know everything.
Or, since this thread was a response to a specific post in another thread, we might really be arguing about one of these questions:
-in a thread where members are sharing stories of racism they've experienced, is it ok and appropriate for white people to also share stories? (well, that depends. Are you wanting to share your story in answer to the thread's question, or because you are uncomfortable with the fact that minorities experience a whole lot more racism more often and want to try to balance things out in the thread? In the former case, go ahead, in the latter, come on dude.)
-in a thread where members are sharing stories of racism they've experienced, is it ok for some members to tell others that their stories aren't really racism? (well, I'd think really hard before doing it. It's not cool to belittle other people's problems and experiences that way, even when they are orders of magnitude less bad than your own or someone else's. This, for the record, is why I think "first world problems" is a bullshit meme that needs to die. Oh, and this also applies to people trying to explain away people's stories with "well, but maybe it wasn't really racism but xyz was happening!" Yeah, maybe. But how many "well, but maybes" do you need to go through before you figure out that no, really, it's fucking racism?)
Anyway. I think it's generally useful in this sort of argument to take a moment, and pause, and ask yourself what question you're really trying to answer. And if maybe, possibly, other people who you think are being stubborn asshole jerks might be trying to answer a different question.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around, does it make a sound? I dunno, depends on what question you're really asking!
Kano on the Phone
Member
Grrrrrr. No one has ever said they were ok with it, tiger. Understanding the context of something isn't putting your personal stamp of approval on it.
googleplex
Member
No that is not racism. It's stupid, shitty and prejudice. But it's not racism.
Until your in a position to be denied a job, a apartment, or your very civil liberties purely based on you skin color your never experience true racism.
You should add your life, or your health to that list.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yes, buddy/chief/sparky/kiddo, they did. The position changed to the more, well, benign, position, but that is absolutely, unequivocally how it was framed.
By saying their reaction is logical and credible it is by definition, approving of it. If a man stubs his toe on a coffee table and he dislikes coffee tables from then on he is slightly irrational, if he instead goes out and dismembers coffee table assembly personnel he is a goddamned nutcase. By saying that the reaction of killing coffee table assembly personnel is logical and in keeping with a sound mind, you are saying that this is something you too agree with. By extension saying that is understandable for people to harbor hate for an entire race you are absolving that as a transgression.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Compare those to the revised, reasonable statement.
Vast fucking difference and it's not a matter of misinterpretation.
Vast fucking difference and it's not a matter of misinterpretation.
Kano on the Phone
Member
"I get it" /= "racism against white people is a good thing"
You need to take a couple deep breaths.
I can understand something and even see myself being the same way when confronted with the same situation without thinking its ideal or applauding it. I'm not a sail, I can see where the wind goes but not immediately go the same way.
It isn't different, it's expanding on the same point, you just stopped overreacting.
Sorry but yes it is different. Understandable /= I understand why
justifiable doesn't mean wrong.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Justifiable =/= "I understand it, but it's not cool."
You're sticking up for your friend, but you're just factually wrong here. His position changed. That was not the position at the beginning. I'm done discussing this with you.
You're sticking up for your friend, but you're just factually wrong here. His position changed. That was not the position at the beginning. I'm done discussing this with you.
Kano on the Phone
Member
I accept your surrender.
If someone has been a dick to you for years, and now you don't like them and you act like a dick to them, you're justified, but I also can understand that no one being a dick to each other is the ideal. Is it so impossible to hold those two thoughts in one head at once?
I understand the sentiment, but it is redefining racism rather narrowly is that is the only time racial bigotry is called racism. It doesn't help really. Institutional racism is real and needs to be dismantled, but to deny other forms of racism seems non-constructive.
Edit: Understand the sentiment was a poor wording, I understand the scholarly definition she is working from would be a better way of saying it.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Whatever makes you feel better for sticking up for hatefulness.
This is rationalizing acting like a dick to someone. acting like a dick to someone, even if they act like a dick to you, is not justified but perpetuating a hate machine.
stufte
Member
The comments going on in here are more akin to "my friend who is white was a dick to me, therefor I hate all white people."
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Nah, see, act like a dick toward the person who acted like a dick to you. Don't act like a dick to everybody who sort of looks like that dick. This is not a hard concept to grasp and I am honestly shocked that people haven't grasped that this is not acceptable behavior.
Haven't almost all races throughout mankind done this?
And not that many white people are "afraid". Stop making this shit up.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Then you should definitely let the people who have been marginalized for centuries know that they should keep turning the other cheek and that they're real mean for maybe holding a tiny grudge.
Holy shit.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Can't believe I'm doing this shit...oy.
But. But, he has a point there. There are a ton of policies historically and presently that exist to try to marginalize the population growth of minorities and poor folks. It's not White People, but some white people in power. There is definitely a bunch of racism motivated by the fear that "my team" isn't ahead. White purity, etc.
...or maybe get mad at the right people and not everybody who belongs to the same loose racial group as those people?
Your last two examples who how white people suffered not just individual racism, but systematic, institutionalised racism.
The notion that white people can't be subjugated to the most insidious forms of racism is at best naive, and shows a complete lack of historical context.
If the point of this thread is to discuss how different groups suffer from different levels of racism, then great. Because that's the reality of racism. It's not just about skin colour, but historical context, cultural differences, socio-economic inequality. So when I see statements like 'white people can't experience racism', it's an outright fallacy.
There is a shit ton of racist minorities even in the US. In fact I'd imagine percentage wise there is absolutely no difference between whites and non-whites on this subject. All you have to do is go into the Trayvon Martin threads and you will see a massive amount of ugliness on both sides.
I honestly think anyone arguing otherwise doesn't have much contact with them. I'm not even talking neccesarily racist against whites.
I mean shit my old girlfriends parents who were Korean were not fans of black people in the slightest.
I honestly think anyone arguing otherwise doesn't have much contact with them. I'm not even talking neccesarily racist against whites.
I mean shit my old girlfriends parents who were Korean were not fans of black people in the slightest.
It is not the product of a healthy mind though, that is the point. There is a stark difference between hating the people that are doing something to you and hating all the people that look like them. You are expressing recognition of the symptoms of a mental illness without accepting also that it is an illness. You can no more say that you understand why some people hate entire races than you can say you understand why serial killers chop up prostitutes. In both cases you have to at least allow that for them to take such actions they are experiencing some form of mental defect. To say it is normal, or justifiable is to say that it is not something abnormal and revolting.
gutter_trash
Banned
Your last two examples who how white people suffered not just individual racism, but systematic, institutionalised racism.
The notion that white people can't be subjugated to the most insidious forms of racism is at best naive, and shows a complete lack of historical context.
If the point of this thread is to discuss how different groups suffer from different levels of racism, then great. Because that's the reality of racism. It's not just about skin colour, but historical context, cultural differences, socio-economic inequality. So when I see statements like 'white people can't experience racism', it's an outright fallacy.
Irish people probably aren't the best example given that in the mid 1800s, that population got their come up by treating the newly freed slaves terribly.
Black people live with the fact that a white contemporary is looked upon more favorably by society for no other reason than their skin. Their heritage. And that power structure is perpetuated by those in power and those that benefit from that power, not the people from the outside looking in.
Black people live with the fact that a white contemporary is looked upon more favorably by society for no other reason than their skin. Their heritage. And that power structure is perpetuated by those in power and those that benefit from that power, not the people from the outside looking in.
Your last two examples who how white people suffered not just individual racism, but systematic, institutionalised racism.
The notion that white people can't be subjugated to the most insidious forms of racism is at best naive, and shows a complete lack of historical context.
If the point of this thread is to discuss how different groups suffer from different levels of racism, then great. Because that's the reality of racism. It's not just about skin colour, but historical context, cultural differences, socio-economic inequality. So when I see statements like 'white people can't experience racism', it's an outright fallacy.
Daaaaaaaaaaamn, some truth to silence the herd.
ah Jango. Are you well?
Anyway. Enough white people are "afraid" of becoming 'the new minority' that I've heard about it on conservative radio many times in the past decades, since the first I'd heard about it was 'population projections' around 1999. I've read about it on online conservative media outlets, and it seems to be all the white nationalists ever talk about. So there's no way to tell how many people are afraid of it, but if you type in "white people are the new", minority will probably be your first Google hit.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And that's how we all ended up on an NSA list somewhere.
I don't attempt to hold a persons thoughts against them. If someone acts like a dick to me I might get angry (it is unlikely though). Acting on that by being a dick to them only escalates the situation.
I am not saying do nothing. I am only saying that hating someone (no less everyone that shares a passing similarity to that person) and acting upon that hate is the worst thing you can do. It solves nothing. But simply accepting it as the way the world works and not trying to change it is also not the right reaction.
Institutional racism won't be solved by more hate.
who is saying it would be?
theignoramus
Member
shopkeepers, security guards, cops, strangers on the street, neighbors, strangers in any public situation, employers, etc. assume youre up to no good, are a source of potential trouble or have bad intentions. something as simple as opening up the door of an expensive vehicle and drawing long, hard stares and suspicious looks. In other words, you arent getting the benefit of the doubt.
When you experience that on a constant basis, you develop a defense mechanism...that usually comes in the form of a chip on your shoulder
A news article stating that white people aren't the majority anymore has absolutely nothing to do with fear. It's just stating a fact.
And I'm doing quite well these days. Financially a bit stressed, but who isn't eh?
Your last two examples who how white people suffered not just individual racism, but systematic, institutionalised racism.
The notion that white people can't be subjugated to the most insidious forms of racism is at best naive, and shows a complete lack of historical context.
If the point of this thread is to discuss how different groups suffer from different levels of racism, then great. Because that's the reality of racism. It's not just about skin colour, but historical context, cultural differences, socio-economic inequality. So when I see statements like 'white people can't experience racism', it's an outright fallacy.
Yes, most people forget the prejudice and discrimination against specific groups of European immigrants through the past century. Irish, Italian, East European, etc all come to mind. Jews and Catholics too.
maplelord93
Banned
Holy shit. Are you really saying the racism towards the Irish ended in the mid 1800s?
The potato famine was mid-1800s! Irish were the only people to suffer from indefinite detention in the 1970s. Police regularly arrest and framed innocent Irish with false evidence.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Yep. And just acknowledging that and seeing that it makes sense and that the power dynamic is still very much shifted the same way doesn't somehow throw gas on the fire of racism.
Understanding the anger still left in the world doesn't make things worse for anyone (except for the very, very insecure, apparently).
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