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[theSlacker]

Did you walk in to any of the Beastmen Strongholds? I shouldn't even call them beastmen, since the imperials had a stronghold in La Noscea, and probably somewhere else too. So those sort of dungeon-like places, where I hope there's still chests containing somewhat decent loot like there was in 1.0

So don't give up hope yet, strongholds are the open-world dungeons, and they do have gatekeepers to warn you about the dangers, but you can just run past them. They will probably have a few side-quests here and there.

The deeper areas of them were all gated off in the beta. Not really the same thing though since even though they will have harder mobs, it is because they are higher level mobs so will be able to blow though them when you are level appropriate. This really is a separate point though.

I don't really know how I can explain the importance of being able to just go into areas alone or without the recommended groups immersion and gameplay wise. For gameplay wise, much like jumping or not having skill lock, it opens more options for later gameplay elements, even if it isn't fully utilized by every fight/area. Think of them being able to put harvesting points in the dungeons that reward gatherers for the added risk of death from trying to sneak around. Or the same thing for combat classes and them being able to utilize the same instanced area for unique events. Basically anything beyond the current way of instances just being for groups to go and kill bosses to get loot. For immersion wise it is the ability to utilize these areas in a way that they aren't just pathways to bosses, but their own working parts of the gameworld.

Even past my immersion issues I just see it as being short sighted and not leaving things open for future planing even if they don't have a way to utilize the areas now. Having complete game systems built around limitations makes it so there is no easy way to work things in later without another complete redesign.

Or something.

 

[devious.one]

Damage meters help more then they hurt.

 

[Aesthet1c]

So are damage meters not going to be in the game or something?

Call me an elitist but those things are a priority. How else can you gauge your performance as a dps class. It's the best way to test out new items, builds, rotations, etc, and really see what kind of a difference that makes.

I don't understand the argument against them at all. If you don't like them then just don't use them. (Although every damage dealing class should be using it).

 

[Khrno]

So are damage meters not going to be in the game or something?

Call me an elitist but those things are a priority. How else can you gauge your performance as a dps class. It's the best way to test out new items, builds, rotations, etc, and really see what kind of a difference that makes.

I don't understand the argument against them at all. If you don't like them then just don't use them. (Although every damage dealing class should be using it).

Parsers, as everyone has always done on the FF MMOs.

 

[Xiaoki]

So are damage meters not going to be in the game or something?

Call me an elitist but those things are a priority. How else can you gauge your performance as a dps class. It's the best way to test out new items, builds, rotations, etc, and really see what kind of a difference that makes.

I don't understand the argument against them at all. If you don't like them then just don't use them. (Although every damage dealing class should be using it).

People have this idea of a dystopian future where elitist raiders will control the game and ban and mock anyone that does not meet their unreachable DPS standards.

Examples of random people from Dungeon Finder PUGs in WoW are always used as "proof".

 

[WolvenOne]

More little arguments between mmo vetrens. Honestly, as someone new to the genre, I don't understand it. I mean, there was a ton of stuff going on in the over world during the beta. Sure, it was mostly Fates, but those accounted for NMs, raids on little enemy camps, repelling raids on civilian targets, etc etc. They seemed to get larger and more elaborate too, so assuming those events continue becoming more elaborate, I don't really see a problem.

The only complaint I have there, is the lack of loot during those events, but I presume those are what those Grand Company seals are meant to replace.

 

[Shouta]

Meters are a helpful tool. By themselves they are not bad or good, just depends on how the user base uses them. They may not be "fun" for people that don't like to play the way that offers optimum dps, so I can understand why some people wouldn't like them. What I don't like is any type of gear scoring system, since it judges before performance and never gives the full picture.

DPS meters are awful because they foster the min/max mentality in a manner that makes it a lot more unfriendly to classes that aren't on the top of the food chain.. This was pretty evident in FFXI where any class that wasn't on the top was basically shunned. Top end content becomes impossible to do on your chosen class because you're squeezing a little less than another job.

This is a bigger issue with games that have a wide variety of jobs and classes so it's very likely that XIV will be fine for the time being but if they end up adding more, it'll start to crop up more.

Of course, it can be avoided by designing encounters in a more inventive manner but even then, it takes a lot of work because it'll still show up if you aren't careful, WoW being a good example.

 

[theSlacker]

DPS meters are awful because they foster the min/max mentality in a manner that makes it a lot more unfriendly to classes that aren't on the top of the food chain.. This was pretty evident in FFXI where any class that wasn't on the top was basically shunned. Top end content becomes impossible to do on your chosen class because you're squeezing a little less than another job.

This is a bigger issue with games that have a wide variety of jobs and classes so it's very likely that XIV will be fine for the time being but if they end up adding more, it'll start to crop up more.

Of course, it can be avoided by designing encounters in a more inventive manner but even then, it takes a lot of work because it'll still show up if you aren't careful, WoW being a good example.

I fully agree with the points you are making, but still disagree that that is a bad thing for it to work that way. If they do expose a lack of caring from development relative to class balance, then that acts as a good metric in which to judge the game itself. Same for them not being able to develop fights and abilities that require certain things from certain classes other then "balls out dps". This is a major problem with a lot of rushed and poorly supported mmorpgs. An easy and verifiable way to confirm gross imbalance is welcome.

I am more then willing to put up with some elitism in mmos, as that will be there either way. Having a fast and easy way to judge the benefit of certain skills, abilities, and gear is a great tool even if people decide to be dicks about it. As mentioned I feel it is less hazardous then a gear score system since it isn't an up front judge that acts as a barrier, but one that judges performance over time in relation to others.

 

[Khrno]

Parsers are another way to detect bad players that don't know how to play their jobs.

In a previous post I mentioned how in 1.x the parser helped my LS to beat Garuda, well, one of the main things we got out of that was how one of the guys that used to be a BLM in the runs, with basically identical gear to one or two other BLMs that would be in the runs, and this guy would always end up last in the parser.

Since we were trying to improve our strategy and everything, I, as another of the BLMs, was trying to help him out and find out what was the reason behind his low damage even tho the similar geared BLMs were doing 4k more dmg or so. I recommended him changing to the lightning brand instead of using Garuda staff (that he got during the initial exploit when it got released) since his Acc wasn't an issue, told him to use better food, tried to get him to do a similar rotation to what the other BLMs did, but in the end he just didn't do any better. It didn't matter the changes on his gear or food, or advice about his spells, my conclusion was that he just didn't try hard enough. And somehow every time that he'd leave and we'd replace him with someone else then it was 4-5 wins in a row without any problems.

 

[Kintaro]

I can understand both the good and bad merits of parsers and what not, but all they always end up boiling down to: "Are you doing it this way? If not, you're doing it wrong." This is a terrible mentality and does way more harm than good to any game's community. It basically turns people into machines.

 

[Khrno]

I can understand both the good and bad merits of parsers and what not, but all they always end up boiling down to: "Are you doing it this way? If not, you're doing it wrong." This is a terrible mentality and does way more harm than good to any game's community. It basically turns people into machines.

I agree that there shouldn't be an "only way" to do things. But if helps out to go from a 20% success rate to 95% within a LS (or FC), then I think that outweighs any cons that it could cause by the misuse of random people through the DF.

 

[Kintaro]

I agree that there shouldn't be an "only way" to do things. But if helps out to go from a 20% success rate to 95% within a LS (or FC), then I think that outweighs any cons that it could cause by the misuse of random people through the DF.

As long as its handled right, sure.

It's rarely handled right.

 

[theSlacker]

I can understand both the good and bad merits of parsers and what not, but all they always end up boiling down to: "Are you doing it this way? If not, you're doing it wrong." This is a terrible mentality and does way more harm than good to any game's community. It basically turns people into machines.

At least it offers objective proof behind why they would say you are doing it wrong. Could be another reason why people hate it. Will run into people all day that will tell you you are doing things wrong and can ignore them, but with actually proof behind it it isn't so easy. People aren't big fans of having their time wasted because someone wants to be a unique snowflake.

As long as its handled right, sure.

It's rarely handled right.

Pugs gonna pug. Is amusing that the people with the highest need of pugs are the ones that are most easily judged by things like this. Guess since I've always been dps I have grown thicker skin in relation to how random players act. There will always be elitist jerks or those only out for themselves. I still think that even if in every single group I'm in some douche decides to post dps after ever boss in chat the availability of such a tool offers far more good then bad.

 

[MogCakes]

People have this idea of a dystopian future where elitist raiders will control the game and ban and mock anyone that does not meet their unreachable DPS standards.

Examples of random people from Dungeon Finder PUGs in WoW are always used as "proof".

Ragnarok Online in its current state is a great example actually. The jobs are so specialized that if you try to do anything that isn't in the certified top tier builds as outlined by the various class guides online, you're labeled a bad player. The community is more or less PVP-WoE oriented with MVP used to farm high level gear. The elitist players do indeed control the economy there.

I agree that there shouldn't be an "only way" to do things. But if helps out to go from a 20% success rate to 95% within a LS (or FC), then I think that outweighs any cons that it could cause by the misuse of random people through the DF.

You're saying that if one method has 5x the success rate of others then it's really the only viable method, and that's about right, but it doesn't have much to do with a parser except that a parser helps reach that conclusion faster. Shouta's talking about the effect it has on an MMO's community, and I agree with him that it brings about a min/max mentality. For many min/maxers, min/maxing IS the fun of it all (nothing wrong with that), but their attitude often shuns others who don't share the mindset and they end up in their own clique looking down on others who don't play their way. The point of not implementing the parser by default is to not foster that kind of mentality - those who want to use parsers can still use third party ones. Nothing's stopping them.

 

[Kintaro]

As long as the attitudes about it are fine, that's cool. It's not even about PUGs. Its in general. When the entire FC or Guild turns into pricks about it, forget it.

However, the fact remains, it narrows the game down to "do it this way or leave" which is a failing of the game and it's community. Because as soon as players find that straight line, it is hard to open minds to a possibly different (and just as effective) way of doing things.

So, let it be known up front. If either GAF FC are going to be pricks (I stress this part) about it from the start or down the line, let players know in the OT.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

Hopefully I'll be able to find like minded people who prioritize playing the game for FUN, over obsessing what everyone's stats/damage/rank etc is.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Hopefully I'll be able to find like minded people who prioritize playing the game for FUN, over obsessing what everyone's stats/damage/rank etc is.

Same.

 

[Shouta]

Pugs gonna pug. Is amusing that the people with the highest need of pugs are the ones that are most easily judged by things like this. Guess since I've always been dps I have grown thicker skin in relation to how random players act. There will always be elitist jerks or those only out for themselves. I still think that even if in every single group I'm in some douche decides to post dps after ever boss in chat the availability of such a tool offers far more good then bad.

For reference, it doesn't just occur in PUGs. I've seen many established guilds in a variety of MMOs that carry the mentality with its own members. It's a pretty rare case to find folks that don't which really sucks.

Also, DPS meters can also miss the full picture of a situation. Someone might be losing out in a damage race but it could be for a variety of reasons like positioning being difficult to grab or being attacked by the mob relentlessly. It could be that they aren't getting the buffs to increase their damage or the debuffs being applied don't benefit them, etc.

Mind you, I'm specifically referring to a DPS meter instead of a parser. A DPS meter only measures damage output whereas a parser could possible capture more information about what's going on. It would still lack some things but it'd be more helpful than a simple number would be. An analysis of the situation is what I'd like folks to do more of over just an analysis of numbers.

 

[theSlacker]

So, let it be known up front. If either GAF FC are going to be pricks (I stress this part) about it from the start or down the line, let players know in the OT.

C'mon man, that's kind of a loaded statement. For the people that are serious about parsers they are used as a means of evaluation and improvement, and part of their play style is to expect others to put the same effort into the game as they do.

Anyway, I can't really speak for any of the Gaf FCs, but can assume that if you are going to be big in end game raiding with a set group, there is a high chance that they will require every member of the group to perform at at least the average, or have a reason why they are not. It is just the nature of end game of mmos. As Khrno pointed out, the difference between a high success rate and a low one for that kind of content can be just one person not playing up to the par of the rest of the group.

 

[Kintaro]

Mind you, I'm specifically referring to a DPS meter instead of a parser. A DPS meter only measures damage output whereas a parser could possible capture more information about what's going on. It would still lack some things but it'd be more helpful than a simple number would be. An analysis of the situation is what I'd like folks to do more of over just an analysis of numbers.

Explained it better than I could.

C'mon man, that's kind of a loaded statement. For the people that are serious about parsers they are used as a means of evaluation and improvement, and part of their play style is to expect others to put the same effort into the game as they do.

Anyway, I can't really speak for any of the Gaf FCs, but can assume that if you are going to be big in end game raiding with a set group, there is a high chance that they will require every member of the group to perform at at least the average, or have a reason why they are not. It is just the nature of end game of mmos. As Khrno pointed out, the difference between a high success rate and a low one for that kind of content can be just one person not playing up to the par of the rest of the group.

As I said in my post. It's the attitude about it. Hence, pricks. If its handled nicely, cool. That's fine. I expect people to put in the effort to play the game well as well, but being nice about it and being a prick about (which meters tend to turn people into) are two different ways of handling it. So, like I said, if that's the attitude going in, just let people know about it. I don't think it is, but I don't know 100%. From my talks with the legacy FC guys, they seem cool about everything. But I don't have the experience in the game with it.

I speak from experience in several MMOs about the influence of meters. It can destroy a community you played years with. So, my words are coming from that angle.

 

[theSlacker]

For reference, it doesn't just occur in PUGs. I've seen many established guilds in a variety of MMOs that carry the mentality with its own members. It's a pretty rare case to find folks that don't which really sucks.

Also, DPS meters can also miss the full picture of a situation. Someone might be losing out in a damage race but it could be for a variety of reasons like positioning being difficult to grab or being attacked by the mob relentlessly. It could be that they aren't getting the buffs to increase their damage or the debuffs being applied don't benefit them, etc.

Mind you, I'm specifically referring to a DPS meter instead of a parser. A DPS meter only measures damage output whereas a parser could possible capture more information about what's going on. It would still lack some things but it'd be more helpful than a simple number would be. An analysis of the situation is what I'd like folks to do more of over just an analysis of numbers.

I'm trying to not be harsh here, but those are what I would call bad groups of players who do not know how to properly use the tools afforded to them. Which goes back to the first post of mine that you quoted, stating that dps meters and the like are a helpful tool that become good or bad depending on who is using them. If a full group of people that you normally dedicate your time to playing the game with can't recognize the different situations and roles in a fight that would cause worse performance then it isn't the fault of the meter. This isn't to say that there will not always be the douche bag who links the data after every fight, and pads their numbers, but that can't be the overall representative of the tool even if it is the most visible.

Full disclosure here. I am currently arguing for something that I use only sparsely, and have put way too much time into way too many mmorpgs to really get worked up over the people that use it badly. I also may be out of the loop a bit since the last time I relied heavily on DPS meters, the ones that I used offered full breakdowns of everything upon request so the base data would really only be posted by people as dick waving. Not as a "hey other 20 people in the raid, look how bad this guy did in that fight where his roll was to kite adds, lets kick him from the guild and ridicule him". Is this stuff that really happens?

People seem to be pointing to games that have been designed to have one spec/class/set of choices be, no question about it, better then the other ones, Like Ragnarok, and saying that it is the min/maxers who cause the community to be so toxic. Not the poor game balance/design. There are a lot of games that are made like this, that certain things are made clearly better and will be favored. Hate on that style of game, not the tools used by people that make it more obvious.

 

[MogCakes]

For the people that are serious about parsers they are used as a means of evaluation and improvement, and part of their play style is to expect others to put the same effort into the game as they do.

It's the attitude about it that can either shun a person or help them improve. A suggestion on strategies for a dungeon or such at the outset can help foster a sense of unity among the party instead of telling someone specifically how they should be playing. Many hardcore players (I am one as well) know how to do this tactfully without making people feel unwelcome, but there are many who push their mindset onto the other party members and it can get tiresome, especially if, being a min/maxer yourself, you've already figured out a strategy for how you want to play and how to get the best results out of your class. So in short, communication goes a long way. As for parsers, I said it earlier but people who want to use them have the means to do so already via 3rd parties. The reason it's being left out of the game itself is so as not to plant the mindset that your performance is based on a number. That isn't to say being a terrible player (such as a CNJ not healing the tank) is acceptable, but people who don't use parsers are not by default terrible players.

People seem to be pointing to games that have been designed to have one spec/class/set of choices be, no question about it, better then the other ones, Like Ragnarok, and saying that it is the min/maxers who cause the community to be so toxic. Not the poor game balance/design. There are a lot of games that are made like this, that certain things are made clearly better and will be favored. Hate on that style of game, not the tools used by people that make it more obvious.

I'm the guy who mentioned RO, so call me out by name if you're gonna do it

RO's completely unbalanced design is a major factor in it's toxic community structure, most definitely. I didn't say min/maxers are the ones who caused it to be so toxic - but they are the kind to be very attracted to a game like RO. I'm a min/maxer myself, I know the psychology well. I'm also not hating on parsers, but I AM saying they foster a certain mindset that I really don't want to see as the norm among XIV's community. Part of the fun of being a min/maxer is that I can do so on my own terms without other players telling me how I should be playing.

EDIT: oops, DP.

 

[aliencowz7]

For reference, it doesn't just occur in PUGs. I've seen many established guilds in a variety of MMOs that carry the mentality with its own members. It's a pretty rare case to find folks that don't which really sucks.

Also, DPS meters can also miss the full picture of a situation. Someone might be losing out in a damage race but it could be for a variety of reasons like positioning being difficult to grab or being attacked by the mob relentlessly. It could be that they aren't getting the buffs to increase their damage or the debuffs being applied don't benefit them, etc.

Mind you, I'm specifically referring to a DPS meter instead of a parser. A DPS meter only measures damage output whereas a parser could possible capture more information about what's going on. It would still lack some things but it'd be more helpful than a simple number would be. An analysis of the situation is what I'd like folks to do more of over just an analysis of numbers.

The only difference between a parser and DPS meters is that a parser has to be run as a seperate program and is thus against the ToS and more inconvenient. You could get all of the information ffxi or ffxiv parsers gave from recount in WoW and often times even more.

Any elitist mentality that is seemingly tied to having dps meters would exist with or without them, it has existed in mmos since the genres inception. The big difference between not having them and having them is that when someone is picking on you for being a shitty DRK that would miss the water after falling out of a boat is that you might have a chance of proving them wrong with access to a dps meter instead of just not being able to get in groups.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I'm so glad in playing the tank in this game. I won't care where I place on the DEEPS MEETAH. LOL.

 

[Kintaro]

In other news, I broke down and ordered my new video card. Since my PC may end up a dedicated FF XIV machine, it may as well play it like a beast. =D

I'm so glad in playing the tank in this game. I won't care where I place on the DEEPS MEETAH. LOL.

You're not holding enough threat... <points to Threat Meters>

=)

 

[MogCakes]

The big difference between not having them and having them is that when someone is picking on you for being a shitty DRK that would miss the water after falling out of a boat is that you might have a chance of proving them wrong with access to a dps meter instead of just not being able to get in groups.

The point of not implementing a DPS meter is so as not to encourage judgment of a player's worth by a number. There have always been people like that, but if it's available at a system level then it will see widespread adoption and it will become internalized for a lot of players.

 

[Shouta]

The only difference between a parser and DPS meters is that a parser has to be run as a seperate program and is thus against the ToS and more inconvenient. You could get all of the information ffxi or ffxiv parsers gave from recount in WoW and often times even more.

As a concept, not in practical terms. It's just that basically numbers mean little hence why I think folks don't like just gauging DPS. A full on situation analyzer that allows you to look at what's going on instead of just DPS makes a lot more sense because then you'd have solid things to go by to renovate strategies. I mean if everyone used a parser just for the DPS numbers, then it's no better than a meter solely for that. I wanted to make the distinction of between just numbers and everything hence why I used DPS Meter vs Parser.

The point of not implementing a DPS meter is so as not to encourage judgment of a player's worth by a number. There have always been people like that, but if it's available at a system level then it will see widespread adoption and it will become internalized for a lot of players.

Or in FFXI's case, it happened even when it wasn't internal. FFXI's DPS meter whoring was so frustrating. It still has ramifications today.

 

[aliencowz7]

The point of not implementing a DPS meter is so as not to encourage judgment of a player's worth by a number. There have always been people like that, but if it's available at a system level then it will see widespread adoption and it will become internalized for a lot of players.

Right but you are seeing it as a tool for evil and not for good. Elitist jackasses are going to be the ones that will download an illegal parser in order to judge you either way, having dps meters built into the game or available as an officially accepted addon is a tool for fighting back. Without it you are still going to be judged just as harshly, you just wont be able to dispute anything they are saying and just because they are elitist doesn't mean they are right.

As a concept, not in practical terms. It's just that basically numbers mean little hence why I think folks don't like just gauging DPS. A full on situation analyzer that allows you to look at what's going on instead of just DPS makes a lot more sense because then you'd have solid things to go by to renovate strategies. I mean if everyone used a parser just for the DPS numbers, then it's no better than a meter solely for that. I wanted to make the distinction of between just numbers and everything hence why I used DPS Meter vs Parser.

My point was that Recount, which was the big WoW dps meter everyone used WAS a situation analyzer. there was countless different categories that it showed and if you knew how to use it you could find literally any information that could be ascertained from the data a combat log provides which is exactly what a parser does. Just because alot of people only used it for pure dps doesn't mean that it was incapable of doing the other stuff.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You're not holding enough threat... <points to Threat Meters>

=)

Threat is already shown in the game right now, and is a useful tool.

Also, when the burst deeps (read: LNC) drops his huge damage chain, the way FF MMO games are designed, the tank may lose aggro for a moment and fight to reclaim it. I welcome that challenge. Tanking in most other MMOs is boring as shit.

Playing Lancer in Tera was the most fun I ever had tanking in an MMO.

 

[theSlacker]

I'm the guy who mentioned RO, so call me out by name if you're gonna do it

RO's completely unbalanced design is a major factor in it's toxic community structure, most definitely. I didn't say min/maxers are the ones who caused it to be so toxic - but they are the kind to be very attracted to a game like RO. I'm a min/maxer myself, I know the psychology well. I'm also not hating on parsers, but I AM saying they foster a certain mindset that I really don't want to see as the norm among XIV's community. Part of the fun of being a min/maxer is that I can do so on my own terms without other players telling me how I should be playing.

EDIT: oops, DP.

Sorry about that, I try not to call people out directly, and it wasn't like you were claiming that it was the meters or min/maxers fault for the game being that way, so just was using the game as an example.

Anyway, I'm really not sure what we are arguing about, me and you. I fully admit that there are jerks that play these games that will use anything and everything to be jerks. That there are people that will use dps meters to further their own jerkery. I just don't see that as a reason to not have them. Maybe it is because I have grown a thick skin to all kinds of jerkery (or because since I am a jerk myself I don't like being a hypocrite), or maybe I've somehow managed to never run into a genuinely good game that was ruined by these actions. But from your posts it doesn't seem like you blame the parser either. So once again, whats the problem, friend?

 

[Kintaro]

Threat is already shown in the game right now, and is a useful tool.

Also, when the burst deeps (read: LNC) drops his huge damage chain, the way FF MMO games are designed, the tank may lose aggro for a moment and fight to reclaim it. I welcome that challenge. Tanking in most other MMOs is boring as shit.

Playing Lancer in Tera was the most fun I ever had tanking in an MMO.

I really was kidding. =)

Lancer in Tera was boss though. I'm with you on that.

 

[erawsd]

For reference, it doesn't just occur in PUGs. I've seen many established guilds in a variety of MMOs that carry the mentality with its own members. It's a pretty rare case to find folks that don't which really sucks.

Also, DPS meters can also miss the full picture of a situation. Someone might be losing out in a damage race but it could be for a variety of reasons like positioning being difficult to grab or being attacked by the mob relentlessly. It could be that they aren't getting the buffs to increase their damage or the debuffs being applied don't benefit them, etc.

There is absolutely no way of quantifying that statement. I've played many MMOs over many years and I've never been in a successful guild where the meter is the gospel on performance.

What does happen is if you're equally geared and performing the same job as someone else, and still doing significantly less then people are going to wonder why. Being called out isn't something to take personally either, more often than not its people trying to find out what you're doing wrong and help you improve. It makes you a better player and helps the guild to progress; Khrno already gave an excellent example of that.

Sure, there are some (imo small) number of people that are going to look at a meter "out of context" and make ignorant conclusions... but so what? That person is not the type you'd want to play with anyway.

 

[MogCakes]

Right but you are seeing it as a tool for evil and not for good. Elitist jackasses are going to be the ones that will download an illegal parser in order to judge you either way, having dps meters built into the game or available as an officially accepted addon is a tool for fighting back. Without it you are still going to be judged just as harshly, you just wont be able to dispute anything they are saying and just because they are elitist doesn't mean they are right.

I don't care to argue with elitists so proving them wrong with numbers isn't something I'd pursue. I'd just not associate with them at all. I'm not against people using parsers, I just don't want it implemented on a system level because it would foster a mindset that judges by its readings. That doesn't mean it's a tool for evil, just that it has ramifications that I disagree with.

Sorry about that, I try not to call people out directly, and it wasn't like you were claiming that it was the meters or min/maxers fault for the game being that way, so just was using the game as an example.

Anyway, I'm really not sure what we are arguing about, me and you. I fully admit that there are jerks that play these games that will use anything and everything to be jerks. That there are people that will use dps meters to further their own jerkery. I just don't see that as a reason to not have them. Maybe it is because I have grown a thick skin to all kinds of jerkery (or because since I am a jerk myself I don't like being a hypocrite), or maybe I've somehow managed to never run into a genuinely good game that was ruined by these actions. But from your posts it doesn't seem like you blame the parser either. So once again, whats the problem, friend?

No problem at all yo. Just stating my opinion on parsers if they were available for everyone at a system level and giving my reasons why I think it's better to leave them out. Other than that I think we both agree on everything else.

 

[theSlacker]

I wanted to make the distinction of between just numbers and everything hence why I used DPS Meter vs Parser.

May be why I'm kind of lost in this since I am using the two as synonyms mostly. The only real dps meters I have seen people actually judged on in a meaningful way have been things like recount in WoW. Just using the base dps is pointless dickwaving and people that try to base anything off of it are laughed at, or purposely doing it for trolling/ethugging.

Guess I have to just fall back onto a previous statement. I just have never been in a real situation where the base DPS meter has been used as a real evaluation, and have played these games for so long that I figured that I have enough data on my own to not just be anecdotal. It is through this bias, I guess, that I am assuming that the problem people are having is either that they don't like fitting in the mold, or can't deal with normal internet trolls.

 

[Shouta]

There is absolutely no way of quantifying that statement. I've played many MMOs over many years and I've never been in a successful guild where the meter is the gospel on performance.

What does happen is if you're equally geared and performing the same job as someone else, and still doing significantly less then people are going to wonder why. Being called out isn't something to take personally either, more often than not its people trying to find out what you're doing wrong and help you improve. It makes you a better player and helps the guild to progress; Khrno already gave an excellent example of that.

Sure, there are some (imo small) number of people that are going to look at a meter "out of context" and make ignorant conclusions... but so what? That person is not the type you'd want to play with anyway.

Sure, there's no way of quantifying it but the same can be said of what you say "does" occur. There's no way to prove it except based on your experience.

For reference, I was in a guild in WoW where meter was the gospel and got kicked from their raids because my DPS wasn't as high as other folks despite doing more of the work with adds and keeping enemies off healers and the like.

That aside, the comments are about meters being an issue for the community as a whole where it can become toxic for players and not in the individual situation.

May be why I'm kind of lost in this since I am using the two as synonyms mostly. The only real dps meters I have seen people actually judged on in a meaningful way have been things like recount in WoW. Just using the base dps is pointless dickwaving and people that try to base anything off of it are laughed at, or purposely doing it for trolling/ethugging.

Guess I have to just fall back onto a previous statement. I just have never been in a real situation where the base DPS meter has been used as a real evaluation, and have played these games for so long that I figured that I have enough data on my own to not just be anecdotal. It is through this bias, I guess, that I am assuming that the problem people are having is either that they don't like fitting in the mold, or can't deal with normal internet trolls.

I have in WoW and specifically in FFXI. That's why I'm worried about XIV going down that road. It's awful for folks that enjoy the classes in XI to be locked out of content because the e-peen/DPS meter heads basically influenced the entire community to hate on classes that aren't on the food chain.

 

[aliencowz7]

I don't care to argue with elitists so proving them wrong with numbers isn't something I'd pursue. I'd just not associate with them at all. I'm not against people using parsers, I just don't want it implemented on a system level because it would foster a mindset that judges by its readings. That doesn't mean it's a tool for evil, just that it has ramifications that I disagree with.

There really isn't any meaningful difference between it being system level or not. WoW's meters were downloaded add ons and not system level and EVERYONE used them. If you don't care to prove elitists wrong and are just going to avoid them then why would you argue against a tool that other people that will have to group with them could use in there favor?

I have played countless mmos new and old school and I can tell you straight up having meters or not changes nothing in player mentality, all it does is arm them with the tools to improve themselves. People that are looking to be dicks are going to find some other way of doing it, whether it be checking your gear or just blindly by the class you play. Judging a tool by the people that misuse it is kind of silly and not really a good reason to ban / remove there use.

 

[Kenai]

Sure, there's no way of quantifying it but the same can be said of what you say "does" occur. There's no way to prove it except based on your experience.

For reference, I was in a guild in WoW where meter was the gospel and got kicked from their raids because my DPS wasn't as high as other folks despite doing more of the work with adds and keeping enemies off healers and the like.

That aside, the comments are about meters being an issue for the community as a whole where it can become toxic for players and not in the individual situation.

That's unfortunate, but thankfully *most* legit guilds look at context as well as meters. For example, if they saw your DPS was low while being on the boss like everyone else, then they could go to WoL and check your spell up-time or something. My RL friend in my guild can be anal about her own meters and is low on the new Tortos boss in ToT, but that is because she has volunteered to do a specific mechanic which takes away from her personal DPS and is necessarily to complete the encounter (kicking the turtle adds). She has even used extra turtle kicks for add control and it is appreciated by us, not vilified.

That being said, there is absolutely no way that DPS meters will not be in this game, and it will likely influence HNM raiding in some fashion.

Also, I had a question: will this game come with authenticators like the last one did? I just got my "early access beta" code thingy and completely forgot to ask about it. I still have my old one from 1.0 but doubt it's valid anymore, especially since I'm not doing legacy.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

There is an iOS and Android authenticator app now. You don't need the keychain dongle anymore.

 

[theSlacker]

I have in WoW and specifically in FFXI. That's why I'm worried about XIV going down that road. It's awful for folks that enjoy the classes in XI to be locked out of content because the e-peen/DPS meter heads basically influenced the entire community to hate on classes that aren't on the food chain.

Too be fair, in FF11, this was a core part of the game even without the dps meters. Certain classes having a harder time then others I mean. Playing as a Dragoon? Good luck leveling ever since all people want to kill are bones though a large portion of the game. There were things in that game that made certain jobs just plain better then others, and everyone knew it even without meters.

This doesn't excuse you experience in WoW though, a game that was just plain better designed and made.

 

[Kenai]

There is an iOS and Android authenticator app now. You don't need the keychain dongle anymore.

I'll look into it. Even with my newer phone the dongle doesn't bother me though. I have my WoW one sitting right next to my mousepad and have it set to use once a week.

I'm 90% sure I'd be hacked by now if I didn't have it, although I doubt FFXIV accounts will have quite the same popularity as WoW ones (not a dig at the game).

 

[MoonLightWave]

Playing Lancer in Tera was the most fun I ever had tanking in an MMO.

Cannot agree more.

 

[devious.one]

Yoshida has already said they plan to allow full mod support down the road, it's inevitable at this point.

Mogcakes had the right idea, people against it will just have to disassociate themselves from people vehemently abusing them.

 

[Kenai]

Yoshida has already said they plan to allow full mod support down the road, it's inevitable at this point.

Mogcakes had the right idea, people against it will just have to disassociate themselves from people vehemently abusing them.

I think using it well is a good thing, but badly using it is toxic of course. Hopefully FFXIV is made well enough or updated enough so that the various DPS specs don't have huge, consistent discrepancies between each other at endgame for no reason other than "just because" like in FFXI. That will do more damage than anything else.

 

[devious.one]

I think using it well is a good thing, but badly using it is toxic of course. Hopefully FFXIV is made well enough or updated enough so that the various DPS specs don't have huge, consistent discrepancies between each other at endgame for no reason other than "just because" like in FFXI. That will do more damage than anything else.

Agreed, that's why I said abuse. I'm all for using it to help craft and refine rotations and such. When it comes to endgame, it can be such a potent tool.

 

[MogCakes]

There really isn't any meaningful difference between it being system level or not. WoW's meters were downloaded add ons and not system level and EVERYONE used them. If you don't care to prove elitists wrong and are just going to avoid them then why would you argue against a tool that other people that will have to group with them could use in there favor?

I have played countless mmos new and old school and I can tell you straight up having meters or not changes nothing in player mentality, all it does is arm them with the tools to improve themselves. People that are looking to be dicks are going to find some other way of doing it, whether it be checking your gear or just blindly by the class you play. Judging a tool by the people that misuse it is kind of silly and not really a good reason to ban / remove there use.

Sure there is. Having it at the system level greatly influences the community mindset. DPS difference is pretty clear in XIV as it is - the amount you damage for and the rate at which you attack is such that changes in either rack up DPS rate pretty fast, it doesn't take a meter to see. People don't need parsers to improve group dynamics and become better players. It's the same reason Pokemon doesn't show IV/EV stats. You're wrong about it not affecting player mentality, it's quite clear to me that it does. Seems we've got a difference of anecdotes here.

 

[Riposte]

Hmm, what is the best possible form of the plural of the linkshell acronym LS?

Without caring I've often said LSes, but that doesn't feel right when I think about it. Linkshell doesn't even end with a s.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I'm 90% sure I'd be hacked by now if I didn't have it, although I doubt FFXIV accounts will have quite the same popularity as WoW ones (not a dig at the game).

You would be surprised. There was a lot of hacking going on during original FFXIV's launch even though that game was so terrible.

 

[erawsd]

Sure, there's no way of quantifying it but the same can be said of what you say "does" occur. There's no way to prove it except based on your experience.

No doubt, I only offered that in contrast to what you were saying.

For reference, I was in a guild in WoW where meter was the gospel and got kicked from their raids because my DPS wasn't as high as other folks despite doing more of the work with adds and keeping enemies off healers and the like.

Why would you want to be in a guild like that? Assuming that is the whole story, then I'd guess they weren't very successful.

That aside, the comments are about meters being an issue for the community as a whole where it can become toxic for players and not in the individual situation.

If the community is full of the types that would abuse DPS meters then the community is going to be toxic regardless. Just look at TOR, when it launched it didn't even have a combat log so parsing was impossible. Yet the game had its fair share of dicks.

 

[Shouta]

Too be fair, in FF11, this was a core part of the game even without the dps meters. Certain classes having a harder time then others I mean. Playing as a Dragoon? Good luck leveling ever since all people want to kill are bones though a large portion of the game. There were things in that game that made certain jobs just plain better then others, and everyone knew it even without meters.

This doesn't excuse you experience in WoW though, a game that was just plain better designed and made.

Well, early leveling was kind of an ignorance issue (who wants slow chain 5s when you can do tons of slightly weaker enemies for more!?) but it's really the later parts of the game's life span that it was a problem. A lot of classes have been more or less equalized now but the community still shuns a lot of jobs. S-E does a lot to combat this but it's just so hard to break that stuff now that it's been around for so long.

Why would you want to be in a guild like that? Assuming that is the whole story, then I'd guess they weren't very successful.

They were pretty successful. I think they ended up one of the first guilds on the server to end up beating the LK during that expansion after he was released but it's been ages so I don't remember if that was the case or not.

 

[MogCakes]

Hmm, what is the best possible form of the plural of the linkshell acronym LS?

Without caring I've often said LSes, but that doesn't feel right when I think about it. Linkshell doesn't even end with a s.

LSs is what I'd go with.