I don't think Karkador is outraged. I doubt he's even angry. I don't think any of us are, we're discussing something on a discussion forum. Isn't that how it works?
GTA V: No female PC; Houser clarifies: "Concept of being masculine was key in story"
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I don't think Karkador is outraged. I doubt he's even angry. I don't think any of us are, we're discussing something on a discussion forum. Isn't that how it works?
ThroneZwei
Banned
But...they didn't say that it required blind stoicism that the female gender does not have. That's you putting words into their mouth. I mean, being masculine or being feminism, if the game/movie/story includes any of this while excluding the other, it's not sexist.
As for men doing some things women can't, that is in the physical sense, then I think you should take your logic to nature and ask it why, between the male and female variations of different animals have physical differences.. It's just...how nature made us physically. Men are naturally bigger than females. This is true in alot of different species and animals.
They said masculinity is a theme of the game, your made up quote doesn't reflect that at all.
NullPointer
Member
Makes sense.
Sounds like a little bit like Fight Club's reasoning.
Sounds like a little bit like Fight Club's reasoning.
I meant the comment specifically about putting a female in the lead role of an action game, which despite the narrative differences, GTA still fits as well.
Also, people cited only one female character that Rockstar has done well. There was another thread about this where people gave me a list of female characters they've done "well", and it turns out most of them were egregiously shitty. I'm not making some mandate that Rockstar needs to put a girl in GTA. I'm simplying saying that they're doing the same old thing, and probably out of habit/capability, and their reasoning is rather weak.
They did more than that. They had all of the game's dialogue rerecorded with a female VA, and it wasn't just a straight re-read of the lines, either. She added her own character to it. For what it's worth, it felt like another character, and that character still had to be written. So, no, I disagree that it's just a character creator.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about videogames.
This.
And this. There's zero outrage or anger here. I always feel like the people blowing up about kotaku/the feminists/etc. are the ones acting more outraged and reactive. These GAF threads are usually made by (and filled up with posts by) them, too. That's some projection.
Karkador is always outraged and offended. She even accused me of supporting sexual harassment yesterday taking my words purposely out of context.
Punchy4486
Banned
I think it would be pretty interesting to play as a girl in GTA, but I don't want it to be forced in or be shoehorned in just to appease people. I'd want it to be fully formed and come from a source of inspiration, not obligation.
NullPointer
Member
Exactly, and this is a company that provides very well done and meaty DLC. So, it could happen.
I don't disagree.
I just don't think they were implying women can't be masculine (which some people seem to read as "women can't be tough") since they had Abigail and Bonnie in RDR, two very much tough (without being ridiculous) women, in the past.
Now GTA is always more zany and ridiculous than RDR was, but still..
Wrong for way too many reasons.
Basically, the Housers saw Goodfellas and are trying to make a game out of that without really understanding what the film was about, just like Red Dead Redemption was the result of grossly misunderstanding The Wild Bunch.
Artist agency is always paramount. If someone doesn't want to write women, that's their prerogative.
I think they might have been better if they'd said "maleness" rather than masculinity, because some people take masculinity to be something that is merely associated with gender, not intrinsically tied to it. Saying "we're exploring what it means to be male" might not be quite as confusing as "we're exploring what it means to be masculine," because the latter might--and has--made some people think, as you've said, "oh, so they don't think women can be tough?"
Artist agency is always paramount. If someone doesn't want to write women, that's their prerogative.
I think they might have been better if they'd said "maleness" rather than masculinity, because some people take masculinity to be something that is merely associated with gender, not intrinsically tied to it. Saying "we're exploring what it means to be male" might not be quite as confusing as "we're exploring what it means to be masculine," because the latter might--and has--made some people think, as you've said, "oh, so they don't think women can be tough?"
MaxwellParrish
Member
If you think that a videogame shouldn't have any pretense of believability, I don't see why you should ask for an equitable representation of the two sex....
Sectorseven
Member
What's NeoGAF's stance on male prostitutes in GTA?
How does that changes my argument? I'm saying the two games have a very different narrative structure and goal.
GTA is incredibly character driven, Saint's Row isn't.
Muffdraul
Member
This is exactly what I was trying to get at. I don't think Houser is explaining why he decided to write three male characters. I don't think he put any thought into that decision, I don't think it was even a decision per se. I'm sure he wrote three male characters simply because it never occurred to him do otherwise. I think what he's trying to do now is justify it after the fact, because an interviewer asked him the question. His ego would never allow him to say "Huh... y'know, to be honest, I never even thought about that."
ThroneZwei
Banned
Kojima got the same hate as well. They're attacking him for one character when he's made The Boss, Meryl, Olga, Fortune, all strong and independent women.
As for RDR, that game was great. It's a shame it never came out on PC or that they made a sequel, but for a one shot it was damned great and they nailed it. Personally, I believe a story should be anything it wants to be. If it wants to have a male protag, or a female protag, let it with all the nuances they add to it. But don't force things to a male-driven story or a female-driven story for just variety if it ruins the story or isn't a bonus thing unlocked after the game.
Curious_George
Neo Member
In some cases it might be to pander to men, but I bet most of the time it's just been men creating games that are inspired by things they themselves like, which in turn also often appeals to other men. I don't see how there's anything wrong with that. No one would fault a female designer for creating a game that might appeal more to her gender more than to men. People are often most comfortable telling the stories closest to them.
NullPointer
Member
I'll ask him next time we meet up for beers. He's a cool dude/lady/manbearpig/digital construct.
All of you guys that want to play as women.....go play with a Barbie or something. Maybe that will be fresh and new for you and you can see things from a unique viewpoint or some other nonsense.
The developers are making the game that they want to make. Why force a female lead when it probably doesn't fit in their storyline?
So he's wrong because he doesn't want creators to be bullied by feminists to make characters that weren't part of their vision? I am truly flabbergasted by some posts lately, you can't make this shit up.
The game with a luchador criminal boss and a pimp that speaks in autotune is not a character-driven game? What?
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The more, the merrier. Will there be a gigolo/rent boy mini-game? That'd be cool.
Muffdraul
Member
I remember the first time I played GTA IV, halfway through Bernie/Florian's missions I was 100% positive that after they were all complete, he was going to become one of the NPCs that Niko could date. Was kinda disappointed they didn't go that route.
True, and as a writer I'd be disingenuous if I said that I wrote from the perspective of a different gender as equally as my own, but I think the problem is in the demographics of the industry itself. Because men started the industry and men became the focus of the product, women aren't as interested in joining the industry, etc.
That's why there's such a focus on making things more equal these days, to promote women having an interest in gaming to the point where maybe we'll have a more diverse group of writers making a more diverse group of games.
What? Where?
Which missions in GTA San Andreas wouldn't have worked with a black character, that is female?
Resisting a trolly drive-by Saints Row post in this thread is seriously testing the limits of my selfcontrol.
Once again the PR department didn't do its job and keep the problematic people tied up in the dungeon, far away from the public. Still, it's disheartening to hear considering the budget.
Gotta say, I love a good player character editor in sandbox games. Gives me more toys to play with, so to speak. Has little to do with sexism or anything else, really. In a competing product I run around as a guy most of the time, but the odd urge to crotchkick people to death or whatever is best served by switching to a female player character. Don't ask me why, it just works better that way.
Oh well, there's always GTA6/7/8/...
Once again the PR department didn't do its job and keep the problematic people tied up in the dungeon, far away from the public. Still, it's disheartening to hear considering the budget.
Gotta say, I love a good player character editor in sandbox games. Gives me more toys to play with, so to speak. Has little to do with sexism or anything else, really. In a competing product I run around as a guy most of the time, but the odd urge to crotchkick people to death or whatever is best served by switching to a female player character. Don't ask me why, it just works better that way.
Oh well, there's always GTA6/7/8/...
...or Saints Row. SCNR =P
The train-following mission, but that's because that mission didn't fucking work as it was.
Your the one who attempted to apply real world logic.
And for a game like GTA rooted in reality the, "lol it's video games" statement doesn't really apply. Also funny how you take one sentence out of an entire post, and then attempt to misconstrue it all while completely ignoring everything else.
I guess you're making my argument for me.
In GTA, who the main character is is going to dictate what activities, missions and gameplay mechanics will be available.
The character and its story drive the whole game.
In Saint's Row anything goes, and although it has some awesome characters, it isn't restricted by a rigid context, because that game is fucking absurd (in a good way, mind you).
So yes, character creation in SR is cool, in GTA isn't.
When they let got of the character driven narrative, they're willing to let you create a character too, in GTA (the multiplayer).
Which parts of GTAV's narrative make you think the Houser's are trying to make a game out of Goodfellas without really understanding what the film was about?
I'm arguing against character creation, not female characters.
And i'm saying in comparison to Saint's Row, their activities are much more tied to who the character is and does.
Well yeah its pretty much this, I think people are just taking it hard because this is targeting the more popular games. In a way I think it would be safer to just create a new IP with female leads of the same settings first, but then I'd guess they'd run into other problems like you trying to say that women aren't good enough for GTA or something.
I'm saying GTA isn't a sim, it's never been a sim and never will be. They've always had ridiculous crap in their games, and I fail to see how a female protagonist somehow makes it "unrealistic".
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
He's wrong for implying this has ever happened. I have seen no bullying or outrage here. Only some people asking why there aren't more female characters in video games. I don't get why some of you are so afraid of discussing gender roles in video games to the point where you have to pretend the medium is under attack from the feminist bogeyman.
Being outraged is stupid. Discussing it isn't.
...
So you're saying Catalina, Kendl Johnson, Elizebetha Torres, Kate McReary, Gracie Ancelotti, Bonnie McFarline, Luisa Fortuna, Abagail Marston are all shitty? All of them? And because you said so you be right? OK.
And before you say, "OH THESE PEOPLE ARE VAPID AND UNLIKEABLE." That's what GTA does, it portrays it's characters as vapid and unlikeable caricatures of people. Male (Brucie) or Female (Gracie). Black (Playboy X, OG Loc) or Arab (Yusuf) or White (Roman). Gay (Bernie Crane) or straight (Manny).
But on the flipside you also have
CJ, Kendl, Luis (Black)
Gay Tony (Gay)
Kendl, Kate Mcreary, Bonnie, Abagail (Woman)
who are well portrayed despite gender, race or sexual alignment.
But whatever. Opinions are opinions, I guess you feel R* can't write a videogame and are lazy, shitty or whatever. But don't act so holier than thou when someone dares have a differing opinion to you.
You seem pretty outraged by Karkador. (See how that works?)
Did you really just tell people who want to play as female characters to go play with barbies instead? Damn, you can't make some shit up.
ShinMaruku
Member
Griselda Blanco would have a word with you.
Nealand Liquor
Member
Why is this even a thing?
I would say I am getting sick at all the complaints over race/gender exclusion in gaming but that's not true. What is true is the fact I don't give a single fuck any more due to the constant petty complaining.
Sadly at one point I did care, it's just the petty attention seeking people complaining have completely drowned out the legitimate complaints. And you know what's worse? Those people using this issue as a platform justifying their attention seeking are far more harmful to their message than those issues they speak against. Some people really need to pick their battles rather than sprinting onto every 'battlefield' with their eyes tightly shut and mouths wide open.
I would say I am getting sick at all the complaints over race/gender exclusion in gaming but that's not true. What is true is the fact I don't give a single fuck any more due to the constant petty complaining.
Sadly at one point I did care, it's just the petty attention seeking people complaining have completely drowned out the legitimate complaints. And you know what's worse? Those people using this issue as a platform justifying their attention seeking are far more harmful to their message than those issues they speak against. Some people really need to pick their battles rather than sprinting onto every 'battlefield' with their eyes tightly shut and mouths wide open.
I'm pretty sure i'm the one who gave you that "list" and you never replied to my answer.
And you had a completely silly way of looking at a "good character".
Bonnie not being one because at one point in the story got kidnapped (obviously ignoring completely any other context)... so yeah.
It didn't turn out anything, really.
Dark Octave
Banned
With G.I Jane that was the point of the whole movie. This small attractive female playing with the big boys. Unless GTA is about that, it could just distract from the rest of the game. This is why I say if they go with a female, she has to look the part of a criminal just like all the other GTA characters so far have.
I say let game creators tell the story they want. Should people get upset that they are reading Harry Potter instead of Harriet Potter? Should we demand that J.K. Rowling make two versions of her books?
I mean I do get that women are not well represented in the industry or in games, but I don't think demanding that all video games center around a female character and a male character is the answer.
I mean I do get that women are not well represented in the industry or in games, but I don't think demanding that all video games center around a female character and a male character is the answer.
Not to mention it ignores that girls actually play video games and might be posting in this very thread! The horror! What are they doing away from their barbies?
Dan Houser is a huge mark for American crime dramas, and 90s rap music when he was a teen. Its pretty evident as it spills into the writing in the games.
Those crime dramas and 90s "hood" movies almost all feature male protagonists, whether its Godfather, Goodfellas, Scarface or Menace 2 Society, Boyz n the Hood, New Jack Swing etc. The females in the movies are all supporting characters, they are girlfriends, wives or mistresses, its just how those scripts were written.
Thats not to say that you should blame the screenwriters, but that is obviously what Houser is influenced by as a writer, its what he loves the most. He has still written some good female characters, such as Bonnie in Red Dead, where he wrote one of the more realistic female characters ive seen i a game. A tragic character in many ways.
Its kinda like James Cameron being influenced by anti nuclear weapons and being anti military, and how that seeps into almost each and every one of his films, T1, T2, Abyss, Avatar.
Those crime dramas and 90s "hood" movies almost all feature male protagonists, whether its Godfather, Goodfellas, Scarface or Menace 2 Society, Boyz n the Hood, New Jack Swing etc. The females in the movies are all supporting characters, they are girlfriends, wives or mistresses, its just how those scripts were written.
Thats not to say that you should blame the screenwriters, but that is obviously what Houser is influenced by as a writer, its what he loves the most. He has still written some good female characters, such as Bonnie in Red Dead, where he wrote one of the more realistic female characters ive seen i a game. A tragic character in many ways.
Its kinda like James Cameron being influenced by anti nuclear weapons and being anti military, and how that seeps into almost each and every one of his films, T1, T2, Abyss, Avatar.
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