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[DangerStepp]

While there's nothing wrong with a female protagonist and that would be a welcomed change of pace... Rockstar knows their demographics.

There are reasons why these decisions are made and it begins and ends with the all mighty dollar.

GTA is that game that the person who only buys sports games gets.

 

[Flatline]

"Women mass murderers aren't represented enough in games."

Is that what this thread is implying?

It's really problematic that there isn't more variety of female murderers in games. The sexist devs are reinforcing the rape culture™ by pretending that only males can be serial killers and violent psychos generalizing women as non-violent rational people.

tl;dr: I AM OFFENDED

 

[Shengar]

But that's what they've always done. Rockstar probably couldn't write female leads even if they wanted to. They aren't doing anything new in the story department, and that's part of why people are complaining. Why they get so much praise as writers is beyond me. The real answer to the question of why they can't put girls in GTA games is because they're incapable of it.

Also, I thought the female option in Saint's Row 3 was well-done, what with having recorded all the dialogue again, and showed that a girl COULD easily be the playable character in a game with a ton of action and there's nothing any more unbelievable about it than if the character was a guy.

You second paragraph pretty invalidate what you said from the first paragraph. You said that Rockstar writers is incompetent because they can write a female character, then you pick Saints Row 3 as the example of how female representation doe well in video game. First, there is vast different between a game with a fixed protagonist with the one who allowed you to choose who you want to play with. The former tends to be story centric, the latter mostly just cosmetic, hardly changing your gender would make the game different unless each path developed separately for it.

As much as I want a female protagonist, I want them to be well-written not just there for the sake of representation or political correctness. Game who allowed you to choose main character gender don't count, because they are usually built to be gender neutral story-wise unless separate path developed independently for each gender. Which again if they took that route, needs to be well-written.


This why we still far behind from literature and film because both the opponents and proponent of the issue in this industry don't have a frikkin clue about what to do with it.

 

[Scrabble]

It would be ruined because girls supposedly can't pull people out of cars

Your right, your average woman probably couldn't pull a grown ass 200lb+ man forcibly out of a car. But please go ahead and try and argue with biology and evolution and to tell me how much of a sexist I am because women aren't as strong as men. Would you want a women competing with men in a mma fight? If so than your out of your fucking mind.

And before you make the argument "well gee I'm pretty sure men can't absorb bullets and perform other ridiculous video game feats", I know that, and I will equally argue that video games should address those issues as well. A 60+ year old man should have difficulty free running rooftops, an overweight character should have his/her own physical limitations, and so on. I could actually imagine some unique gameplay possibilities being introduce with a female protagonist not having the strength of a man etc, but lords knows the cries of "misogony" and "sexisim" that would be hurled if they as so much made a female who wasn't every bit as strong as a male character, never mind if she happens to have her own advantages, if she isn't as "strong" than fuck it it's sexist. Because everyone knows that men and women couldn't possibly be biologically different right?

 

[mollipen]

I don't understand this sudden outrage over a form of media having male protagonists. This game's story is modeled similarly to the movie "Heat", and that movie was a bunch of males in a heist crew. Did the movie "Heat" catch a lot of flack for not having a female lead?

Movies aren't games. Movies are a story being told in a passive form of entertainment where the main goal is being interesting enough to have you wanting to see what happens next.

The moment you put a controller in the player's hand and ask them to be in direct control of the main character, you're asking them to put some part of themselves into that character's shoes. If you cannot in any way relate to the main character, then that can be very hard to do.

I enjoy Uncharted, because I like Drake as a person and I have fun going on adventures with him. More and more, however, I'm finding myself less tolerant of male leads in games, because I have so little connection with them, their backgrounds, or their motivations. In no way do I want to say that games like GTA shouldn't be allowed to do what they do, but in terms of what games I personally buy and spend my free time with, I now gravitate toward the games that either give me a female protagonist or which, even better, offer the choice.

I can totally see the downside to my tastes, because at times there is the worry that a custom character can take something away from the building of a character since there's no definitive version of that character to rely on. Still, both Mass Effect and Saints Row has shown me without a shadow of a doubt that you can make a very interesting lead character who also allows for customization that includes gender.

 

[polyh3dron]

"Naturally, it's impossible to judge this remark without playing the game through, but still - what do you think?"

I think you're fishing for hits, OXM.

Yep, OXM is playing their audience (Internet savvy gamers) like a fiddle.

 

[Stet]

It's their prerogative for sure, but it's kind of a lazy excuse. Masculinity as a trait isn't under the sole ownership of men, it's just called masculinity because it was a word coined during times of outmoded gender stereotyping.

Regardless, it's not that much of a slight so I don't predict much outrage. Good discussion topic, though.

 

[ezekial45]

It simply does not reflect reality. So yes, I find it unbelievable for women to commit mass crimes. But whether I find it unbelievable or not does not matter - fact is, women do not commit mass crimes. Mass crimes appear to be exclusively committed by men.

I think it's important to remember that GTA defies logic and deals in excess. Looking back on the events of the previous games, I don't think think real life statistics necessarily apply here. It can have a genuine story/setting/situations, yeah, but that doesn't mean it's totally believable.

Basically, this is GTA. A series that has jetpacks, harrier jet/tank rampages, other equally other the top stuff. I don't think that should really exclude women here. Again, I'm not disputing Rockstar here, just the belief that woman committing crimes in GTA would shatter believability.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Oh man, i can't wait for the Kotaku and Polygon articles about this one!

 

[Karkador]

So i'm marginalized every time I play a video game that doesn't have a black character? Cool.

A little bit, yes? It's fine if you personally don't mind it, but lots of people are just tired of videogames being about one type of person.

But hey, it's valid to complain about bald spacemarines in every game, but not the underlying issue that almost every game character is a generic white male.

 

[UrbanRats]

While there's nothing wrong with a female protagonist and that would be a welcomed change of pace... Rockstar knows their demographics.

There are reasons why these decisions are made and it begins and ends with the all mighty dollar.

GTA is that game that the person who only buys sports games gets.

Well marketing surely plays a big factor (how couldn't it, when you're putting 265 millions and hundreds of people's lives on the line?) but it's not like they play it safe as a standard.
A 100+ millions realistic Western videogame, was pretty goddamn risky and ballsy move.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

But hey, it's valid to complain about bald spacemarines in every game, but not the underlying issue that almost every game character is a generic white male.

I think most people are actually much closer on this issue than it may seem, and the differences come down to semantics and method more than anything.

 

[spuit*11]

OXM is riding this culturally correct social justice train of internet hits and advertisement money like a bunch of pros.

Well done chaps, another win for game reviewers trying desperately to seem like journalists.

 

[Dark Octave]

Well, no shit. That's exactly the problem that some feminist gamers have with the proliferation of male protagonists. The "concept of masculinity" is key to almost every game's story. Just because the GTA games are smart and satirical doesn't make them an exception to that rule.

That's like saying the GTA games are justified in being so violent because violence is so key to the story. Circular logic, anyone? Sure, they're critical of the culture of violence, but that doesn't mean they don't also take pleasure in and partake in the violence they critique. Same goes for masculinity. Flimsiest excuse I can imagine.

When 90% of games revolve around action, why wouldn't you expect 90% of game characters and 90% of game stories to be Expendables/Transformers/Action B movie?

We got puzzle games and Journey and shit too but I dunno.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

All good stories are personal in a way or another. If the writer doesn't intimate with it, then you get a bland mass that no one will care about. I'm not necessarily saying that it is harder for a male author to write a female character, but I can see how you get more tools at your disposal to tackle your own gender.

 

[Casimir]

I know that somewhere in the multiverse there is a reality where every videogame has a protagonist who is a black Islamic lesbian wheelchair-bound heavy person, and OtherGAF constantly asks, "Why can't we play as a trim straight white-skinned brown-haired 30-something dude of no discernible religion?!"

I think I covered everything.

Stop stealing the in article arguments of Kotaku and Polygon. Their writers have families to feed.

 

[UrbanRats]

Oh man, i can't wait for the Kotaku and Polygon articles about this one!

Uhm, there already were a couple of articles.

The outrage isn't nearly as big as some seem to fear.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

Hey Rockstar! Here's your female protagonist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileen_Wuornos
She's practically female Trevor. I would rather have strong female characters, period. Does not have to be the protagonist but side character, Tess from Last Of Us comes to mind. So Micheal's wife should be a 3 dimensional character, maybe like Skyler White from Breaking Bad and not some screaming harpy like she appears to be. Double for Franklin's girlfriend.

We need to play as more senior citizens too, think Clint Eastwood from Gran Torino.
Or Mickey Rourke's character from The Wrestler. Enough young, male models.

 

[UltimaPooh]

A little bit, yes? It's fine if you personally don't mind it, but lots of people are just tired of videogames being about one type of person.

But hey, it's valid to complain about bald spacemarines in every game, but not the underlying issue that almost every game character is a generic white male.

Then you should be getting pissed at games that just throw a character creator on there with no real intention to make the game shaped around their choices in race or gender.

From the interview in the OP Rockstar has just said a female lead would not be ideal for the story they are trying to tell regarding masculinity.

I want games to become more diverse as well but if you're just going to make being a female an option then don't even waste my time. Tell me a story about what it's like to be that female.

 

[richiek]

Of course Rockstar has the right to do with their games as they wish, but then when people wonder why core "AAA" games attract a predominantly a male audience, this is one of the reasons why.

 

[Scrabble]

Movies aren't games. Movies are a story being told in a passive form of entertainment where the main goal is being interesting enough to have you wanting to see what happens next.

The moment you put a controller in the player's hand and ask them to be in direct control of the main character, you're asking them to put some part of themselves into that character's shoes. If you cannot in any way relate to the main character, then that can be very hard to do.

I enjoy Uncharted, because I like Drake as a person and I have fun going on adventures with him. More and more, however, I'm finding myself less tolerant of male leads in games, because I have so little connection with them, their backgrounds, or their motivations. In no way do I want to say that games like GTA shouldn't be allowed to do what they do, but in terms of what games I personally buy and spend my free time with, I now gravitate toward the games that either give me a female protagonist or which, even better, offer the choice.

I can totally see the downside to my tastes, because at times there is the worry that a custom character can take something away from the building of a character since there's no definitive version of that character to rely on. Still, both Mass Effect and Saints Row has shown me without a shadow of a doubt that you can make a very interesting lead character who also allows for customization that includes gender.

Interactivity can be just as powerful, if not more powerful, when your asked to take control of someone you can't relate to or are diametrically opposed to their actions. By the time I got to the end of TLOU or Spec Ops I wasn't exactly relating to their actions or treating them like my bros, and it's because of that why those stories were so impactful.

 

[ThroneZwei]

If you want a female character for GTAV, you can play multiplayer.

I mean, I get why people want to play as female characters, and that is really fine if the story calls for it. For this regard there is Remember Me, Tomb Raider, Borderlands 2, Fallout series, Skyrim series, etc. Because in the story it fits.

However, this shouldn't mean that EVERY game developer should include a female protagonist in the story. A story is just that, a story about someone or some thing. If you can sex swap(Sex in the form of Man/Woman, not getting into Gender as that's a whole other subject) the main character, such as in Skyrim, Fallout, etc. And the story isn't affected that's fine. But if it's a game like GTAV, where the story will be king in it along with the gameplay, then developers shouldn't pander to the hot button in the industry.

In the end, it's not 'sexism' or anything. And nobody should be outraged about this or even be angry because it's somebody vision and story. If they wanted to put a playable female protag they could've, but if it doesn't call for it in the story then they shouldn't.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

...but then when people wonder why core "AAA" games attract a predominantly a male audience, this is one of the reasons why.

Chicken or the egg?

 

[Demon Ice]

Has there really been any outrage about this? Serious question, 'cause I've seen none. There is a difference between discussing why there are no female characters and "What the fuck!? I'm boycotting this sexist piece of shit of a game!!!!!" outrage.

All I've seen are a few people saying "this could have been cool to have one of the characters be female" and a bunch of people trying to pretend like there is some huge witch hunt going on and getting outraged about that.

Marginalizing 50% of the human race (and game consumers) seems like a fair thing to ask questions about.

Ugh... "concept of being masculine" - and your professional writing team couldn't figure out how to use juxtaposition with an empowered female player-controller protagonist to convey that? I am disappoint Rockstar...

It would be ruined because girls supposedly can't pull people out of cars

Okay, so it's mostly Karkador.

 

[RedStep]

I think this is good. A story is a story. It's about a thing, not about being fair and equal. How Stella Got Her Groove Back is a story about a woman, Crank is a story about a man, and Romeo & Juliet is a story about a woman and a man.

If games want to tell stories instead of checking boxes, they should be about something. Making a story about masculinity (and from what I can tell, confronting a perceived lack thereof by settling in a "domestic" life) is just fine. I guess you could make one of the other characters a woman existing in that same "masculine" criminal world, but that's a different story.

 

[Stet]

Chicken or the egg?

Fair enough, but this isn't some vague metaphysical concept we're talking about, it's an industry where we know exactly where it began and who was involved, and it was men creating games to pander to men.

 

[Jackpot]

We liked the idea of a protagonist retiring with a family, and how awful that would be," he observed of Michael in particular. "We've never done anything like that and you don't really see it in games

oh, c'mon, maybe not in games but in tv & film it's cliché as hell.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Well, no shit. That's exactly the problem that some feminist gamers have with the proliferation of male protagonists. The "concept of masculinity" is key to almost every game's story. Just because the GTA games are smart and satirical doesn't make them an exception to that rule.

If they explore it well enough.

Previous GTA games haven't done it that well but I hope this one does especially since they have grown a bit since GTAIV.

If GTAV ends up being a bunch of chest beating then I will quickly and readily agree that it's just another game that enforces the stereotype.

Right now I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[zma1013]

I've always wondered why they never tried a female lead given how many Grand Theft Autos have been released. Story-wise, it could be an incredibly refreshing change of pace. Maybe next time.

 

[46w500]

This game's story is modeled similarly to the movie "Heat"

This is reason enough for me to pick up GTA5 on day one. Heat is a perfect movie.

 

[jimi_dini]

GTA doesn't work with character creation

Why not?

Too much work to at least record it using one female and one male voice?
Not enough budget to do this?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Create a character simply wouldn't work in a game like GTA. The characters in the world typically talk a lot about the main characters appearance throughout the story. You'll even hear radio chatter describing the main character. That goes a long way into the world building that Rockstar does with their games, and why their worlds are second to none when it comes to open-worlds.

 

[Stet]

I think this is good. A story is a story. It's about a thing, not about being fair and equal. How Stella Got Her Groove Back is a story about a woman, Crank is a story about a man, and Romeo & Juliet is a story about a woman and a man.

If games want to tell stories instead of checking boxes, they should be about something. Making a story about masculinity (and from what I can tell, confronting a perceived lack thereof by settling in a "domestic" life) is just fine. I guess you could make one of the other characters a woman existing in that same "masculine" criminal world, but that's a different story.

Salt is a story about a woman too, but it began life as a story about a man. I'm not arguing that it was great or awful, I'm just saying that putting storylines into gendered boxes is weird and kind of limiting.

 

[Muffdraul]

I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that the notion of a female lead character simply never even crossed Houser's mind while he was writing GTA V. I seriously doubt he considered it and then dismissed it because it didn't fall under his "machismo agenda." And I'm not going to fault him for it. If someone thinks it's important to have more female lead characters in video games, then let them get directly involved in the making of one. Don't demand that others follow your own personal agenda.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

If you want a female character for GTAV, you can play multiplayer.

I mean, I get why people want to play as female characters, and that is really fine if the story calls for it. For this regard there is Remember Me, Tomb Raider, Borderlands 2, Fallout series, Skyrim series, etc. Because in the story it fits.

However, this shouldn't mean that EVERY game developer should include a female protagonist in the story. A story is just that, a story about someone or some thing. If you can sex swap(Sex in the form of Man/Woman, not getting into Gender as that's a whole other subject) the main character, such as in Skyrim, Fallout, etc. And the story isn't affected that's fine. But if it's a game like GTAV, where the story will be king in it along with the gameplay, then developers shouldn't pander to the hot button in the industry.

In the end, it's not 'sexism' or anything. And nobody should be outraged about this or even be angry because it's somebody vision and story. If they wanted to put a playable female protag they could've, but if it doesn't call for it in the story then they shouldn't.

It isn't so much the artistic vision that people have a problem with. Author doesn't want to use a female protagonist? Nothing wrong with that.

The issue arises when writers try to appeal to an outside authority such as gender roles to try and justify their artistic vision. It is one thing for an author to say, "I did not feel like writing a female lead" and an entirely different thing to say, "Clearly a female lead would not have worked here because these situations require a degree of blind stoicism that the female gender does not have." That, sir, is indeed sexism. And that is exactly what the authors did here.

 

[DangerStepp]

Well marketing surely plays a big factor (how couldn't it, when you're putting 265 millions and hundreds of people's lives on the line?) but it's not like they play it safe as a standard.
A 100+ millions realistic Western videogame, was pretty goddamn risky and ballsy move.

Not whenver you market it as "From the makers of the Grand Theft Auto series" it isn't.

Grand Theft Auto is Take Two's meal ticket and there's a difference between 'playing it safe' and completely alienating the audience (speaking of their target demographic, which I'll shoot the dark and say is Males, between 18 and 34) by making the protagonist female.

But don't get me wrong, I would love to see something so bold. It would be as though millions cried out and in pain and were suddenly silenced.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

I guess Rockstar could make DLC with the focus of, "What would a woman be like in this world?"

Female cop following the antics of Micheal, Franklin and Trevor?

 

[deli2000]

But hey, it's valid to complain about bald spacemarines in every game, but not the underlying issue that almost every game character is a generic white male.

That is most definitely an issue no one is denying that. But you can't say that R* is incapable of writing a decent female character.

 

[TheContact]

I love the authenticity they're going for

 

[v1oz]

I'm offended I can't play as an Arabic PC.

 

[MYeager]

Naturally, it's impossible to judge this remark without playing the game through, but still - what do you think?

I think it's impossible to judge the remark without playing the game. I guess speculating on the motives of the creators and jumping to unfounded conclusions might be one way of killing time until the game comes out though.

 

[UrbanRats]

Movies aren't games. Movies are a story being told in a passive form of entertainment where the main goal is being interesting enough to have you wanting to see what happens next.

The moment you put a controller in the player's hand and ask them to be in direct control of the main character, you're asking them to put some part of themselves into that character's shoes. If you cannot in any way relate to the main character, then that can be very hard to do.

I enjoy Uncharted, because I like Drake as a person and I have fun going on adventures with him. More and more, however, I'm finding myself less tolerant of male leads in games, because I have so little connection with them, their backgrounds, or their motivations. In no way do I want to say that games like GTA shouldn't be allowed to do what they do, but in terms of what games I personally buy and spend my free time with, I now gravitate toward the games that either give me a female protagonist or which, even better, offer the choice.

I can totally see the downside to my tastes, because at times there is the worry that a custom character can take something away from the building of a character since there's no definitive version of that character to rely on. Still, both Mass Effect and Saints Row has shown me without a shadow of a doubt that you can make a very interesting lead character who also allows for customization that includes gender.

Uhm, i'm sure a great deal of connection to the character is very much required for movies, too.
Besides, i'm sure you agree gender and race aren't the only elements that help you bond with a character, and you can very much empathize with a character of a different gender and race from yours.
And they feel like the control of the story must remain in their hands to a degree, since they have no problem in letting you customize you character (gender and race included) in the multiplayer, where there is no strong narrative lead.

With that said, i am absolutely not against more variety in representation, if anything because more variety is usually more interesting and fun to explore.

It's their prerogative for sure, but it's kind of a lazy excuse. Masculinity as a trait isn't under the sole ownership of men, it's just called masculinity because it was a word coined during times of outmoded gender stereotyping.

Regardless, it's not that much of a slight so I don't predict much outrage. Good discussion topic, though.

Again, i think "masculinity" is used to indicate the social trappings of male society and its expectations.
What it means to be a "real man" and all that kind of bullshit.

 

[UltimaPooh]

The issue arises when writers try to appeal to an outside authority such as gender roles to try and justify their artistic vision. It is one thing for an author to say, "I did not feel like writing a female lead" and an entirely different thing to say, "Clearly a female lead would not have worked here because these situations require a degree of blind stoicism that the female gender does not have." That, sir, is indeed sexism. And that is exactly what the authors did here.

Not really.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Okay, so it's mostly Karkador.

It's most of the usual suspects, though Karkador is apparently taking point today. I expect the same people screaming at clouds about this would be similarly upset if the female protagonist was spoken to lewdly or sexually or physically assaulted by a series of male antagonists, so there's probably no right answer here. Just a choice of which straw man you want to be attacked over.

 

[UrbanRats]

Why not?

Too much work to at least record it using one female and one male voice?
Not enough budget to do this?

Because, whether you enjoy them or not, they always have a strong character driven narrative, that guides everything from the activities to the missions, to the gameplay mechanics.

Not whenver you market it as "From the makers of the Grand Theft Auto series" it isn't.

Grand Theft Auto is Take Two's meal ticket and there's a difference between 'playing it safe' and completely alienating the audience (speaking of their target demographic, which I'll shoot the dark and say is Males, between 18 and 34) by making the protagonist female.

But don't get me wrong, I would love to see something so bold. It would be as though millions cried out and in pain and were suddenly silenced.

Well they marketed MP3 with "from the creators of" and still bombed somewhat.
They were convinced RDR was going to ship and not become profit, so it was such a sure shot.

 

[Stet]

Again, i think "masculinity" is used to indicate the social trappings of male society and its expectations.
What it means to be a "real man" and all that kind of bullshit.

True enough, but it could be neat to see that kind of expectations of a female character too, a concept which no doubt exists in real life as well as in other media. See: G.I. Jane.

 

[v1oz]

Next time they should ask him why you cant play a Transgender PC. No one should get left out.

 

[Marvel]

Would be nice to have more variety...

 

[Goby]

I'm glad there's no female PC. It just wouldn't be too realistic and GTA's story always tries to have some realism in it.

Leave that to fantasy where magically 110 lb girls can fight dragons

 

[out0v0rder]

welp, good thing this is a video game and it's all made up.