Good post.
EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"
- Thread starter Musiol
- Start date
Good post.
No, Sony's first party games will make the power difference apparent. Some third party devs might have games looking the same on both consoles, but as the generation goes on differences will show, just like this gen.
Not this lead platform shit again, I am sure both PS4 and XBone will be utilised as much as possible. If that was the case with lead platforms then all those PC ports shouldn't look much better than consoles, this has happened a few times where GTAIV was horribly optimised on PC, but on this occasion all three platforms are similar. I expect we will see a difference straight away at launch and continue to see a difference as the generation goes by.
Syphon Filter
Member
The difference this time is fairly bigger though.
SwiftDeath
Member
The devs of Witcher 3 have already stated they have individual teams working on each platform version (XB1, PS4, PC) so no lead platform there
I think we'll see the difference in some games at launch but it will likely be small
Start to get bigger as time progresses though
I'm totally calm- there was zero yelling in my previous post.
Also- I'm not shouting from the rooftops proclaiming that the difference between PS4 and XB1 is mathematically equal to that of PS2 and XBOX. I was replying to a post that had already made two specific comparisons, (NES vs. PS3 and Xbox vs. PS2) and kept them the same in my response for clarity's sake. EDIT: I think I chose my words poorly, though. My point was that if you noticed the difference between Xbox and PS2, you're going to notice the difference between XB1 and PS4, not that the difference was the same.
As for my reply to you- I wasn't commenting on the CG vs. Xbox part of the comment, I was commenting on the idea of using launch titles to gauge the potential of the new consoles versus looking at the specs.
Your point doesn't make sense though. The differences between the Xbox and PS2 were extremely noticeable due to an extreme gap between the two (a ~ 200% to 300% gap). You saying that someone who noticed such a gap will notice the one between the XB1 isn't entirely true. A more apt comparison would be to say that someone who notices the difference between a GC and an Xbox ( or maybe a Wii and a GC since that's what the difference actually is mathematically if a poster on here is correct) will notice the difference between and XB1 and a PS4.
As for specs bit, I think if you can get games like Ryse/Forza as launch titles that look as good as KZ/Infamous from a console that is supposedly tricky to develop for and needs tinkering/time to figure out, compared to a console that is much easier and much more straightforward to develop for, then I don't think the gap will be that big. That's essentially what I was saying. The XB1 is still a very capable machine despite being the weaker of the two. People acting like we are going to be getting a PS2/ogXbox gap between the two need to re-evaluate their critical thinking skills.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Considering what Sony Santa Monica and Naughty Dog did with 6-year old (almost 7) hardware, I think so.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Just going off percentages isn't really a good way to look at this. IIRC, the power gap is wide enough that it's literally the total power of Xbox One + 360 + ps3 equals the power of the ps4.
Eric the Red
Member
Well my comment had in mind Edge's quote about multiplatform performance becoming more of a political issue; forcing a parity between each so as to not ruffle feathers. The only way around this is a large enough install base gap. Then devs will stop caring about the political side of it.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
That would be new for the industry. Previously, publishers didn't seem to care, and one console regularly out preformed the other.
I personally think this is bullshit, every generation in history from Amiga , and NES, SNES and Genesis to PS2 and Xbox to PS3 and 360, devs didn't give a fuck about having versions comparable to each other, they simply did what they can with the systems they were working on, even if necessary version look superior to the other.
I'm going to need a source for this. Educate me.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
There's a bigger chance that MS pressures Digital Foundry than actual developers with respect to parity between multiplat titles.
DF afaik is the only major, credible site that compares titles between platforms in such detail so they will hold a lot of cards next gen. I mean who else is there to challenge their claims if they tell us that, in fact, there is only a few frames difference in the opening scene of BF4? Who else benchmarks console titles so accurately? Lens of Truth?!
DF afaik is the only major, credible site that compares titles between platforms in such detail so they will hold a lot of cards next gen. I mean who else is there to challenge their claims if they tell us that, in fact, there is only a few frames difference in the opening scene of BF4? Who else benchmarks console titles so accurately? Lens of Truth?!
Pimpbaa
Member
Why are you assuming the X1 will be the lead platform for developers?
it's true as far as flops. Just add up the respective systems. gflops are not the end-all-be-all metric for game consoles though
Prince Vultan
Banned
The tech talk is hurting my brain.
Can someone give the power levels to me in terms of Mobile Suits?
Can someone give the power levels to me in terms of Mobile Suits?
So basically what he is saying is that because the FLOPS difference between the two is a 360+PS3, somehow the power gap between the two is an XB1+360+PS3? Is that even a logical conclusion? Doesn't seem like it to me.
I see you, thumbing your nose at the established DBZ measurement system. Too good for Saiyans are you?
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
All of a sudden PC thread?
I didn't see the guy mention his FalconNW machine in the article... must have been skimming.
Moving on...
Infamous SS already smokes everything I've seen come out of MS camp so far and it's a launch window open world game. Sony's 1st party consistently throttles every competitor in just about every aspect. I can not imagine how ridiculous some of their studio work is going to look in a years time.
I didn't see the guy mention his FalconNW machine in the article... must have been skimming.
Moving on...
Infamous SS already smokes everything I've seen come out of MS camp so far and it's a launch window open world game. Sony's 1st party consistently throttles every competitor in just about every aspect. I can not imagine how ridiculous some of their studio work is going to look in a years time.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Only because you're hung up on the numbers and you're trying to apply everything literally instead of putting that post in the context of the post it was replying to.
Launch games. How do they work?
I'll make an analogy.
DISCLAIMER: Now, bear in mind, this is just a rough example. I'm not literally saying that the XB1 and the PS4 are the exact equivalent of a Chevy Cavalier and a Ford Mustang. Please don't post replies explaining to me that the percentages don't add up. I'm well aware of that. Again- this is just to illustrate a point.
A Chevy Cavalier and a Ford Mustang are going to participate in a race. Prior to lining up at the start line and going full blast, though- the two cars are going to do a single lap around the track to introduce themselves to the crowd, and to give the drivers a chance to get used to how their cars handle. Both cars will go maybe 70 or 80 mph for this lap.
That's what a console launch is in this analogy. It's the warm up lap. Don't assume that just because the Cavalier went as fast as the Mustang in this lap that it's going to be able to keep up as the real race progresses.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
I don't watch those shows. How about if I describe them in vegetables?
PS4: Corn
Xbone: Rutabaga
WiiU: Celery
Or in bodily functions:
PS4: Pee
Xbone: Poop
WiiU: Double poop
RobotRocker
Member
XBone is Wing Zero. PS4 is Unicorn. But these stats have been given by an anonymous builder in the Republic Of Zeon.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I don't know about mobile suits but as far as cars go:
PS4: Nissan GTR
Xbox One: BMW M3
Foghorn Leghorn
Unconfirmed Member
It's not all about resolution and frame rates. With 50% more gpgpu you can have more physics, ai, and whatever else and the games could still be equals graphically.
MS is in a bad spot.
MS is in a bad spot.
Andronicus
Banned
I'm surprised they haven't started banning people bringing PC!wars in here lol
Still. Can't wait for the release comparisons. Shit will be Interesting....
Still. Can't wait for the release comparisons. Shit will be Interesting....
Mr_Antimatter
Member
IIRC, that was how that number was reached. Not a perfect measure as you said, but an interesting factoid in terms of the performance jump.
vpance
Member
You're forgetting about pricing, and desirability. M3 is still desirable despite being slower than the GTR.
SwiftDeath
Member
lol no what sangreal was saying and you agreed with is the following
FLOP-wise
PS4 = XB1 + X360 + PS3
That's it
Therefore
PS4 - XB1 = X360 + PS3 > 0
*Cloud power not included as it's total bullcrap
Bluemercury
Member
This. At this point theres no reason for xbone to exist.
If people were fine buying ps3 versions over 360 this gen then the difference isn't gonna matter. Just be happy you're getting the games either way.
edit:
That's a much better reason.
edit:
That's a much better reason.
Actually that statement was a reaction to how 360 games looked compared to Xbox games. PS3 games hadn't even been shown when the Xbox 1.5 comments were first being made. And this gen has a much more obvious difference in specs and dev comments.
Don't condescend me. I fully understand the point you are trying to make, and I don't necessarily disagree with it (with regards to launch games).
Your analogy is broken and selective because your analogy assumes that both cars are trying to maintain parity for an introductory show, then begin the race. This isn't true for first party launch games. Guerilla isn't trying to make a game that is on par with Ryse or Forza. Guerilla is trying to make an awesome game with the time and knowledge they have. So is Crytek, Remedy, and Turn10. So in essence, both cars are already racing, so to speak.
So to use a similar analogy, two cars are racing a total of 10 laps. One car is alleged to be 50% weaker in raw performance and is more exotic/difficult to drive. However, at the start of the first lap, both cars are almost neck and neck. You are saying that there is going to be a "massive" gap. I'm saying that the current gap on the track does not appear to be massive, and that the gap in the future will not be as massive as you are suggesting.
Right, I know that. What I am asking is whether a FLOPs ( as in instructions per second) gap of 360+PS3 (ie PS4=XB1+360+PS3) translates to a POWER gap of 360+PS3? I don't know a ton about tech stuff, but it seems misleading to make broad performance conclusions based on a single variable.
captainraincoat
Banned
Oh those Lazy developers.........not spending enough time in using the cell...er i mean esram
Eric the Red
Member
I think you're misunderstanding. The presumption is on forced parity not that X1 would lead.
Sure, if the VGLeaks article on the PS4 architecture is accurate, the GPU in there is a 14 CU GPU with 4 extra CUs tacked on.
There's very little information available about those 4 extra CUs. Cerny was asked about this by DF and responded that they added a little more ALU than you normally would to encourage studios to use GPGPU for things like audio raycasting, etc.
If the 14+4 GPU is correct it may not have extra texture cache, L1 cache, L2 cache or TLB cache for those CUs. The PS4 works around that by supplying the Onion+ bus which gives the GPU a channel to memory at 20 GBps which doesn't use the L1 or L2 cache. Bypassing the caches means that the GPGPU performance would be slower on CUs using Onion+ as they have to wait for the writes to complete before caring on. Memory caches are used to buffer memory into fast on-chip RAM.
The Xbox One doesn't have these extra CUs but it does have some fixed function co-processors to do jobs like audio raycasting and moving memory, and it has a fast on-chip scratch pad which will have much less latency than writing to external memory (if the PS4's ROPs suffer from ~2x latency of the Xbox One, their ROP throughput will be similar when writing to ESRAM). The leaked PS4 GPU clock is 800mhz and the Xbox One is 853mhz so you've got 12@853 vs 14+4@800. I doubt anyone in this thread knows exactly how that will play out in the long term.
This is where the balanced argument comes from.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Was talking about pure performance
Your analogy only works if both cars are currently in the process of being built and tuned.
It's just 18CUs, there are no hardware differences. The "14+4" is just an example of how you could schedule graphics and compute, if you want to.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-face-to-face-with-mark-cerny
You can't do raycasting on the XBO's audio hardware. You access it via the XAudio2 API [1] which is for processing audio streams, not for casting rays on the geometry of the game world.
[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh405049(v=vs.85).aspx
Chobel
Member
What are you talking about? SHAPE can't do audio raycasting.
My analogy would actually not make sense if both cars are still being built (since you can't race [not test, but race] an incomplete car?) What does this even mean? Please clarify that.
And we can pretty much say that we know what the first batch of games will look like, barring a few optimizations here and there. So in essence, the race has started. The consoles are roughly finalized and are being mass produced.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
You can't say how big that gap will be because we don't know. But once the drivers get accustomed to the track and their cars, there's a good chance we're gonna see that gap grow.
The devs quoted in this article have called the difference "significant" and "obvious." You don't say that unless there's a fairly decent difference.
There are too many wrong things in that post for me to correct .. leaving for work so I'll take a gander later if anyone hasnt addressed your post by then.
PS4: BMW M3 414HP for $46,744
XB One: BMW 335i 300HP with dash cam and GPS for $62,325
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
True, it can't.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Yet you spend the rest of your post disagreeing...
And the analogy was obviously a bad idea because you're not able to look at anything outside of the perfectly literal sense. So I'll talk literally, I guess, and see if any of that gets through:
The devs that are working on launch games for these consoles right now don't have time to figure out what makes these machines special. They're working around the clock just trying to get these games ready to ship in November. They were developing software towards a moving target until just months ago. They have bugs to squash, networks to stress test, and in many cases, other platforms to develop and optimize for. If there were large differences between games on the two consoles at this point, that might be revealing. The fact that there aren't large differences is not revealing at all.
Disagree if you like. I can't sum up the reality of a hardware launch any better than that. I've got to go take a dump anyway.
Truespeed
Member
Why don't you tell us how that turned out because last time I checked the PS3 had some of the most graphically acclaimed games, of any console, this generation.
Also, maybe you didn't get the memo, but these aren't hypothetical projections based on theoretical performance. These are actual performance numbers based on running code. So, yeah, the PS3 didn't make the Xbox look like an Xbox 1.5, but thanks to Microsoft the PS4 is making the Xbox One look like the 360.5.
It's also 18 CU's not 14 + 4. That was corrected quite a while ago.
digoutyoursoul
Member
I swear some must enjoy arguing over who's preference is better than actually playing games. Microsoft could not give a shit about you, you are a potential purchase nothing more. The manic nothing to see here cheerleaders versus the fragile stench of the defence force. Take some time to actually play some games like a lot on Gaf and relax, you might enjoy it 