EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"

I2amza said:
If you would re-read my post, I mentioned ALL devs. I did not only mention PS4 devs. *Facepalm*

Launch games will not use much of the power of either console and we will not see not see them until 2 years later when 343i, ND, SM come into the equation.
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You said "in addition to that" meaning that you were agreeing with the poster you quoted, who is suggesting that there will be a massive difference between both consoles, despite launch titles looking similar because PS4 devs will optimize shit. If you are saying that both devs will optimize stuff, then we can at least agree that we don't know just how much better PS4 games will be since launch games are similar. That 50% difference in power is not translating to an obvious massive superiority at launch, and it remains to be seen what it will be in the future. If you compare Wii U launch games to PS4 launch games, there is an evident disparity despite both being launch games because there is a significant power gap between the two.

spwolf said:
its more like one car has 500hp and other 750hp... 750hp grabs the pole and wins the race by the first corner.

Your analogy makes it seem like XB1 will overheat or something.
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You could use 75,000,000 Natalie Portmans vs 50,000,000 Natalie Portmans for all I care. The analogy still stands.
 
KidBeta said:
ROPs access a lot of large amounts of memory less often, this decreases the impact of the latency.
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Sure, it's a balance. You also want your shaders to be more expensive than the ROPs so that the ROPs can complete without being swamped and causing a bottleneck and the PS4 has a higher ratio of ROPs to CUs.

I was just suggesting that individual ROPs on the Xbox One may perform as quickly as the PS4 when writing to ESRAM as they wouldn't have to wait as long for writes to complete.

I'm not suggesting the Xbox will be as fast as the PS4, just looking at whether there's basis for it to not be ~33% slower.

I didn't know the 14+4 had been debunked and that the PS4 was a straight 18 CU chip with no compromises around how they could be used.
 
Truespeed said:
Why would anyone be surprised it's a pain in the ass? Developers need to constantly micro manage it. It's just one more task that they could do without. With the PS4 none of this is necessary due to the GDDR5 super highway.
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My understanding was that this micromanagement was unnecessary on the 360's EDRAM, and up until recently I'd assumed the same was true for the Xbone, at least until that comment from the other thread came about. I'm still assuming this is something that'll be rectified through further SDK development.
 
I'm probably stupid for stepping into the crossfire here but I don't get the point of rehashing the same old fight all over again. Everybody including MSFT itself (minus some really, really deranged fanboys) seem to agree that the Xbox One will not be more powerful than the PS4. Again, everybody including MSFT admit that the PS4 is the more powerful system on paper. Simple mathematics proves that ... the GPU is 50% bigger and the main memory is >200% faster (The Xbox One has the ESRAM but that will only help as a really small, fast cache to close the gap). Simple logic states that the PS4 is not the PS3 and should be at least just as easy to develop for as the Xbox One (in architectural terms it should be actually easier because of its lack of ESRAM).

The only disagreement seems to be whether the difference will manifest itself in software. Will games run around 50% better on the PS4? What does that even mean? I don't think we find out till late 2014 multiplats because everything released till then is held back by the 360 and the PS3 anyway. Did you expect Microsoft to flat out come out and say they were selling a weaker system for $100 more? I'm impressed they were honest enough to acknowledge their weaknesses and move on. Yes, they did try to spin something using the cloud, drivers and later custom coprocessors but the attempt was half hearted at best and anybody with any experience with computers could tell you it was baloney.

On the bright side the Xbox One is not the Wii U and will provide a true generational leap from the HD twins. Even the most ardent Sony fanboys will admit that. As far as the 40% gap goes I think a lot of people would admit that while that might be the theoretical gap the discussion is more about the Xbox One being better that 40% weaker and nobody in their right minds expects it to be worse. Yes, the PS4 will always be my platform of choice for multiplats but I'm not blind enough to ignore some fairly decent games on the Xbox One that one just won't get on the PS4. If somebody is absolutely crazy about Halo and only has money for just one console (and online service), he/she could pay $100 extra for the Xbox One and get the same multiplatform games (at a worst case slightly lower fidelity) and still have their exclusives of choice. That choice makes sense for them. At the end of the day what's good for you isn't good for everybody and I think it makes sense to acknowledge that the Xbox One isn't so weak that the PS4 is the best choice for everybody.
 
Finalizer said:
My understanding was that this micromanagement was unnecessary on the 360's EDRAM, and up until recently I'd assumed the same was true for the Xbone, at least until that comment from the other thread came about. I'm still assuming this is something that'll be rectified through further SDK development.
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You can do that but constantly moving things between the two might not be the best use of bandwidth. That'll be on an individual game by game basis.

It's something developers will have to work out.
 
Anonumos said:
You are just trying to downplay the practical parity achieved by both console launch games because it doesn't show any evidence for a large disparity of real-world performance.
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No, I'm saying it's unwise to expect anything other than practical parity at launch to begin with given the shaky processes that launch games go through on their way to being published, and even more unwise to think that the parity means something with regard to the future.

Anonumos said:
...then whatever argument you are trying to make here would be applicable. But that's not what I am saying. The PS4 WILL outperform the XB1, just not by a fuckton like you are suggesting.
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I'm suggesting that the PS4 will outperform the XB1 by an amount commensurate with the difference in their hardware specifications. It's not like we don't know what they are. Whether that's a "fuckton" or not is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.
 
KernelPanic said:
no way will they gimp 3rd party titles on PS4. They might not go out of their to use the extra power for better effects but if they can run at a higher resolution or frame rate they will do it.
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this is the most likely scenario, maybe third parties won't bother making different assets and/or coding different effects and stuff for each console, but at the very least AA, framerate and maybe resolution will be improved running on PS4 just because of the extra raw power even if the engine is more or less the same for both consoles.
 
bonus_sco said:
Sure, it's a balance. You also want your shaders to be more expensive than the ROPs so that the ROPs can complete without being swamped and causing a bottleneck and the PS4 has a higher ratio of ROPs to CUs.

I was just suggesting that individual ROPs on the Xbox One may perform as quickly as the PS4 when writing to ESRAM as they wouldn't have to wait as long for writes to complete.

I'm not suggesting the Xbox will be as fast as the PS4, just looking at whether there's basis for it to not be ~33% slower.

I didn't know the 14+4 had been debunked and that the PS4 was a straight 18 CU chip with no compromises around how they could be used.
Click to expand...

The ROP tiles are probably large enough that the latency doesn't severely impact the throughput of the device, I don't think youll be getting near the PS4's fillrate but you will be getting higher then expected.
 
Truespeed said:
Why don't you tell us how that turned out because last time I checked the PS3 had some of the most graphically acclaimed games, of any console, this generation.

Also, maybe you didn't get the memo, but these aren't hypothetical projections based on theoretical performance. These are actual performance numbers based on running code. So, yeah, the PS3 didn't make the Xbox look like an Xbox 1.5, but thanks to Microsoft the PS4 is making the Xbox One look like the 360.5.
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Sure, Sony had some of the most graphically acclaimed games, but so did the 360, with titles like Gears 3, Forza Horizon, and Halo 4. Oh, and the 360 outclassed the PS3 in about 90% of multiplatform games.

So, in light of this, what point are you trying to make, exactly?
 
Finalizer said:
My understanding was that this micromanagement was unnecessary on the 360's EDRAM, and up until recently I'd assumed the same was true for the Xbone, at least until that comment from the other thread came about. I'm still assuming this is something that'll be rectified through further SDK development.
Click to expand...

If only they had 8gb of ESRAM and 32mb of DDR3... oh wait, that'll still only give you exactly the same amount of bandwidth.
 
Latvian Hitman said:
No, I'm saying it's unwise to expect anything other than practical parity at launch to begin with given the shaky processes that launch games go through on their way to being published, and even more unwise to think that the parity means something with regard to the future.



I'm suggesting that the PS4 will outperform the XB1 by an amount commensurate with the difference in their hardware specifications. It's not like we don't know what they are. Whether that's a "fuckton" or not is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.
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What you are saying now sounds much more sanitized than what you were initially suggesting. I disagree with the launch games bit. I think that if XB1 launch games were looking like Wii U games then it would have absolutely meant something. The fact that there is parity at launch suggests that both platforms are at least in the same league, and that perhaps a 40% difference in specs does not translate proportionally as you are suggesting. But I think we should agree to disagree.
 
Question.

Suppose there were a bicycle with one wheel 6" in diameter and one wheel 600" in diameter. The bicycle, let's say, was a little oddly shaped but highly optimized to be pedaled on certain surfaces. This bicycle had adjustable length pedals that were designed to move power from the rider to the GROUND. Let's suppose there was another normal bicycle. Now, you might suppose that the normal bicycle was more equipped to be PEDALED around as compared to the special bicycle with the one very small wheel and the one very large wheel. But let me suppose ON TOP OF THAT that with the pedals and with a special processing system designed to allow that bike to shift gears faster, it could, UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES-- such as the rider having mutant legs or the bicycle company perhaps paying the rider to do a shitty job-- outperform the normal bicycle.

Let us further suppose that there is a banana and a million dollar gold bar in your apartment. And let us suppose further to my original further supposition that there is a raging monkey outside your window SCREAMING about wanting a banana. While it may seem realistic that the million dollar gold bar would in fact be the more valuable item, in this PARTICULAR circumstance in which the raging monkey HAS MADE HIS DEMANDS KNOWN TO YOU that you would in fact rather have the dedicated audio chip and the moneyh...I mean, the banana.

When you consider all of these facts and, again, the fact that the PS4 is infact a blu-ray player with some controllers attached, I do not understand how you could conclude anything other than the fact that the special bicycle and the raging monkey are in fact ONCE AGAIN the choice for consumers.
 
spwolf said:
So if there is true 50% advantage, I expect it to show with first games.
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I wouldn't expect it with 1st year titles. Too many cross-gen games. Devs are spreading themselves thin with most multiplats releasing on 5 platforms. I'm not expecting any multiplat to take advantage of anything other than "we got it looking good enough for a launch window and across 3 more platforms." I firmly believe many will choose parity to get the product on the street.
 
Toki767 said:
I think the fear might be that developers don't even attempt to optimize the PS4 version of games and spend all their time getting the Xbox One version up to par.
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Agreed. Hopefully instead we get developers targeting a lower frame rate or resolution on the xbox one
 
What will you people do if the Xbone sells on par with the PS4 for the foreseeable future?

I am not sure why this forum is so bent on being fans for consoles or their respective companies, why not just be a fan of the games?
 
professor_t said:
Sure, Sony had some of the most graphically acclaimed games, but so did the 360, with titles like Gears 3, Forza Horizon, and Halo 4. Oh, and the 360 outclassed the PS3 in about 90% of multiplatform games.

So, in light of this, what point are you trying to make, exactly?
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You mean besides obvious point of bestowing the graphical crown on the PS3?

As for those multiplatform titles - yeah, odd how those 360 ports didn't shine on the PS3, huh?
 
Anonumos said:
You said "in addition to that" meaning that you were agreeing with the poster you quoted, who is suggesting that there will be a massive difference between both consoles, despite launch titles looking similar because PS4 devs will optimize shit. If you are saying that both devs will optimize stuff, then we can at least agree that we don't know just how much better PS4 games will be since launch games are similar. That 50% difference in power is not translating to an obvious massive superiority at launch, and it remains to be seen what it will be in the future. If you compare Wii U launch games to PS4 launch games, there is an evident disparity despite both being launch games because there is a significant power gap between the two.
Click to expand...


The fact is, the two systems cannot be compared currently because we only have one part of the picture. 1st party games are impossible to compare because it's completely subjective. It arises the argument "you can't prove that could or couldn't be done on another system". 3rd party games are the ultimate factor and we haven't seen both next-gen versions of...well anything.
 
The argument about drivers making up the difference is extremely disingenuous because its naively assumes that Sony isn't capable of improving their drivers either.
 
Nutter said:
What will you people do if the Xbone sells on par with the PS4 for the foreseeable future?

I am not sure why this forum is so bent on being fans for consoles or their respective companies, why not just be a fan of the games?
Click to expand...

1) I don't care.
2) I've said it before but apparently many miss the point: there is a rather large amount of threads that aren't talking about technical divides between two competing pieces of kit. Rather than whining about a thread - you could simply... I don't know... participate in a thread that interests you?

Just a thought.
 
Y2Kev said:
Question.

Suppose there were a bicycle with one wheel 6" in diameter and one wheel 600" in diameter. The bicycle, let's say, was a little oddly shaped but highly optimized to be pedaled on certain surfaces. This bicycle had adjustable length pedals that were designed to move power from the rider to the GROUND. Let's suppose there was another normal bicycle. Now, you might suppose that the normal bicycle was more equipped to be PEDALED around as compared to the special bicycle with the one very small wheel and the one very large wheel. But let me suppose ON TOP OF THAT that with the pedals and with a special processing system designed to allow that bike to shift gears faster, it could, UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES-- such as the rider having mutant legs or the bicycle company perhaps paying the rider to do a shitty job-- outperform the normal bicycle.

Let us further suppose that there is a banana and a million dollar gold bar in your apartment. And let us suppose further to my original further supposition that there is a raging monkey outside your window SCREAMING about wanting a banana. While it may seem realistic that the million dollar gold bar would in fact be the more valuable item, in this PARTICULAR circumstance in which the raging monkey HAS MADE HIS DEMANDS KNOWN TO YOU that you would in fact rather have the dedicated audio chip and the moneyh...I mean, the banana.

When you consider all of these facts and, again, the fact that the PS4 is infact a blu-ray player with some controllers attached, I do not understand how you could conclude anything other than the fact that the special bicycle and the raging monkey are in fact ONCE AGAIN the choice for consumers.
Click to expand...

So the PS4 is a monkey and a special bicycle, and I'm both a mutant and a banana?
 
Yellowflashdude said:
Developers didn't care for parity in multiplats this gen (poor ports of Skyrim, Assassins creed on the ps3 etc), so why should they care now?
Click to expand...

That's two games out of hundreds. Most games had negligible differences between them. Will be interesting to see what the differences are between PS4/XO titles going in to year 2 and 3. I'm expecting bigger differences than with the PS3/360.
 
Jack_AG said:
1) I don't care.
2) I've said it before but apparently many miss the point: there is a rather large amount of threads that aren't talking about technical divides between two competing pieces of kit. Rather than whining about a thread - you could simply... I don't know... participate in a thread that interests you?

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I suppose you enjoy just talking about a console you are not interested in for the sake talking? but ill keep that in mind the next time technical junk is brought up in a game thread.

Thoughts.
 
Nafai1123 said:
The fact is, the two systems cannot be compared currently because we only have one part of the picture. 1st party games are impossible to compare because it's completely subjective. It arises the argument "you can't prove that could or couldn't be done on another system". 3rd party games are the ultimate factor and we haven't seen both next-gen versions of...well anything.
Click to expand...

Wait...what? So we shouldn't compare the games of those who know the hardware best?

Because going by what you are saying, the PS3 was weaker than the 360 just because devs were too lazy to port shit right to the PS3. Do you realize what you just said?

If anything, 3rd party publishers have an incentive to ensure parity across both consoles so they are the worse group to use for comparisons. And if we were to hypothetically get to the point were the 1st party games become subjective, wouldn't it then suggest that the performance is close enough that objectivity has gone out of the window (thereby invalidating team #massivegap?).
 
nib95 said:
That's two games out of hundreds. Most games had negligible differences between them. Will be interesting to see what the differences are between PS4/XO titles going in to year 2 and 3. I'm expecting bigger differences than with the PS3/360.
Click to expand...

My point is that devs didn't bother to try go for parity when it comes to multiplats for the ps3 yet all of sudden there is a case for parity now that its the Xbox that is harder to develop for?
 
H_Prestige said:
You're right. 360's power advantage didn't mean anything this gen.

You know what did matter? Price. And it mattered a lot. MS is behind Sony in every metric this time.
Click to expand...

Indeed, 360 is less powerful than PS3.
Price matters a lot, thats true. Now, MS behind Sony in every metric? What metrics are you taling about?
 
Y2Kev said:
Question.

Suppose there were a bicycle with one wheel 6" in diameter and one wheel 600" in diameter. The bicycle, let's say, was a little oddly shaped but highly optimized to be pedaled on certain surfaces. This bicycle had adjustable length pedals that were designed to move power from the rider to the GROUND. Let's suppose there was another normal bicycle. Now, you might suppose that the normal bicycle was more equipped to be PEDALED around as compared to the special bicycle with the one very small wheel and the one very large wheel. But let me suppose ON TOP OF THAT that with the pedals and with a special processing system designed to allow that bike to shift gears faster, it could, UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES-- such as the rider having mutant legs or the bicycle company perhaps paying the rider to do a shitty job-- outperform the normal bicycle.

Let us further suppose that there is a banana and a million dollar gold bar in your apartment. And let us suppose further to my original further supposition that there is a raging monkey outside your window SCREAMING about wanting a banana. While it may seem realistic that the million dollar gold bar would in fact be the more valuable item, in this PARTICULAR circumstance in which the raging monkey HAS MADE HIS DEMANDS KNOWN TO YOU that you would in fact rather have the dedicated audio chip and the moneyh...I mean, the banana.

When you consider all of these facts and, again, the fact that the PS4 is infact a blu-ray player with some controllers attached, I do not understand how you could conclude anything other than the fact that the special bicycle and the raging monkey are in fact ONCE AGAIN the choice for consumers.
Click to expand...
This is an extremely compelling argument.
 
Nutter said:
I suppose you enjoy just talking about a console you are not interested in for the sake talking? but ill keep that in mind the next time technical junk is brought up in a game thread.

Thoughts.
Click to expand...
You asked about sales - i said i didnt care about that, specifically. Talking about a "game" can cover many bases, including the tech that drives it. Unless, of course, the thread is about a specific element - else falls under off topic.

GAF has a no thread-whining policy, bro. Don't like it? You don't have to post but you sure as shit can't complain about it.
 
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