Support NeoGAF

[Sub_Level]

Piccolo is pretty boss. He was able to go toe to toe with Cell's first form.

Yeah, before Cell actually started absorbing people. First form post-absorption of mass population Cell wasn't even as strong as Android 16.

Piccolo, after fusing with God, was not as strong as Android 16. Let that sink in.

edit: I mean LOTS of people, not that one town.

 

[ElFly]

Consensus is that Tien has always been stronger than Krillin, with the possible exception being a brief time after the Guru power boost on Namek.

I agree with this; Tien has always been shown to be stronger, faster, more serious about training, having a wider array of impressive techniques, superior skill at ki manipulation and generally greater feats and destructive output. Krillin's constant presence in DBZ has misled people into thinking he was the "best human," when that's clearly not the case.

Nah, Krillin supremacy last at least from the Nappa fight until the Cell saga at least.

Tien only kills one Saibaman. Then, tien gets his ass kicked by Nappa pretty fast in their fight and dies by using his tri beam.

Krillin is all bitch please, and kills a bunch of Saibamen in one attack. Krillin almost beats Nappa with his destructo disc.

Krillin supremacy begins there and I don't think it ever stops. Tien stops Cell and Buu with his tri beam, yeah, but at the cost of his vital energy and almost dying. That shit never won him a battle. Krillin stops Cell by plain old hitting him with no consequences.

 

[MikeMyers]

Krillin got a boost on Namek that rose his power level from around 1,000 to around 10,000. Not to mention later Vegeta mentions that Gohan and Krillin's power was rising at the whole thing was going on. So throughout the entire Namek stuff Krillin's power was rising.

Tien arguably did more training, especially after the Cell Games. But the problem is that his training wasn't anything special. He didn't do any Gravity training (except for King Kai's planet, which wasn't anything special by then) and he even flat out turned down the chance to train in the Room of Spirit and Time.

 

[youngwerther]

I remember Krillin getting his ass kicked by 1st form Cell on the wing of an airplane.

 

[foxuzamaki]

also keep in mind he was always wearing weights

I have NO IDEA why this random piece of DBZ trivia sticks in my mind.

Cause its so badass, badass cape with some head thing, that makes him stronger little by little.

 

[ElFly]

I remember Krillin getting his ass kicked by 1st form Cell on the wing of an airplane.

Thing is, he walks away from that one on his own.

Tien stopping Cell for a moment makes him lose consciousness and he has to be picked up by Goku.

I think Goku is a greet father to people who don't have great fathers. Goku is that dad who let's his kids do whatever they want during his monthly visit. There's a reason Gohan wore Piccolo clothes.

The reason is Piccolo's clothes are badass. Also, he was starting to go through his rebellious phase.

 

[Aylinato]

He had the worf effect

 

[youngwerther]

For everyone trying to doubt Goku as a father

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxBRduVj3CM

*tears*
That's the kind of thing that sticks with a son even after he's become a man.

 

[Kusagari]

For everyone trying to doubt Goku as a father

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxBRduVj3CM

*tears*
That's the kind of thing that sticks with a son even after he's become a man.

How does that stop Goku from being a deadbeat dad who was almost never there for Gohan?

 

[youngwerther]

How does that stop Goku from being a deadbeat dad who was almost never there for Gohan?

This has been addressed.

Dying in order to save the world =/= deadbeat dad.
If Goku was a deadbeat dad he would have been sitting on the couch drinking beer after Raditz kidnapped Gohan and then conquered the earth. Did you even think about what you wrote?

 

[The Silver]

Honestly though Goku really was being a bad father during the Cell Games, Piccolo had to call his ass out and make him realize what he was putting Gohan through.

 

[youngwerther]

Honestly though Goku really was being a bad father during the Cell Games, Piccolo had to call his ass out and make him realize what he was putting Gohan through.

And yet Goku was 100% correct all along and took the only possible path that had a chance of saving the Earth.
You act like Gohan would have somehow magically survived the Earth exploding if he didn't fight Cell.

 

[The Silver]

And yet Goku was 100% correct all along and took the only possible path that had a chance of saving the Earth.
You act like Gohan would have somehow magically survived the Earth exploding if he didn't fight Cell.

That doesn't change the fact Goku was being a bad dad.

 

[youngwerther]

That doesn't change the fact Goku was being a bad dad.

Goku realized that Gohan had the power to defeat Cell. He then allowed and encouraged Gohan to do just that.
Gohan succeeded and saved the Earth.

Where does the bad dad part come in? Gohan got beat up a little bit?
That's better than getting blown the fuck up, right?

Depending on your definition of fatherhood, then Goku was an outstanding dad precisely BECAUSE of what he did during the Cell games.

 

[KageZero]

Nah, Krillin supremacy last at least from the Nappa fight until the Cell saga at least.

Tien only kills one Saibaman. Then, tien gets his ass kicked by Nappa pretty fast in their fight and dies by using his tri beam.

Krillin is all bitch please, and kills a bunch of Saibamen in one attack. Krillin almost beats Nappa with his destructo disc.

Krillin supremacy begins there and I don't think it ever stops. Tien stops Cell and Buu with his tri beam, yeah, but at the cost of his vital energy and almost dying. That shit never won him a battle. Krillin stops Cell by plain old hitting him with no consequences.

But it's officially confirmed that tien had the higher pl during the nappa&vegeta fight

 

[MikeMyers]

I remember Krillin getting his ass kicked by 1st form Cell on the wing of an airplane.

Filler

Honestly though Goku really was being a bad father during the Cell Games, Piccolo had to call his ass out and make him realize what he was putting Gohan through.

Except Gohan told him for the past 3 (4 since the Time Chamber took a year) years that he wanted to fight the Aritifical Humans, its not Goku's fault that Gohan suddenly became a pussy again. And Piccolo shouldn't call out anyone on this, he did the same thing to Gohan in the Nappa fight.

 

[The Silver]

Goku realized that Gohan had the power to defeat Cell. He then allowed and encouraged Gohan to do just that.
Gohan succeeded and saved the Earth.

Where does the bad dad part come in? Gohan got beat up a little bit?
That's better than getting blown the fuck up, right?

Depending on your definition of fatherhood, then Goku was an outstanding dad precisely BECAUSE of what he did during the Cell games.

uh......the issue was that Goku assumed Gohan was just like him and didn't mind fighting and facing strong enemies. Goku completely forgot how soft hearted his son was and didn't realize Gohan didn't want any part of Goku plan which he never told him about.

Did you forget the look on Goku's face when Piccolo's words hit him? The fact his plan worked and that it was for the greater good is not the issue here. I mean damn Gohan temporarily turned into a psychopath because of all the trauma caused by Goku's "plan".

 

[youngwerther]

uh......the issue was that Goku assumed Gohan was just like him and didn't mind fighting and facing strong enemies. Goku completely forgot how soft hearted his son was and didn't realize Gohan didn't want any part of Goku plan which he never told him about.

Did you forget the look on Goku's face when Piccolo's words hit him? The fact his plan worked and that it was for the greater good is not the issue here. I mean damn Gohan temporarily turned into a psychopath because of all the trauma caused by Goku's "plan".

There is no issue.
In Cell's words - "You have to fight."

The choice was either Gohan fights or Cell literally blows up the whole world, killing everyone, including Gohan. That's it. Fight or die. Which is worse?

All Piccolo did was make Goku temporarily doubt his plan. Piccolo wanted to baby Gohan, he might as well have been Chi-Chi out there. Goku knew what he was doing and it worked.

You're trying to come at the greatest because you are a silly Vegeta fan. Face it, Goku's the GOAT.

 

[Kusagari]

Goku literally abandons his family at the end of Z to go train with Uub.

 

[MikeMyers]

All of Piccolo's plans usually backfire big time, I'm pretty sure I'd rather trust Goku's judgement.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Enough Piccolo talk - Videl should never have cut her hair.

I agree with this.

 

[The Silver]

There is no issue.
In Cell's words - "You have to fight."

The choice was either Gohan fights or Cell literally blows up the whole world, killing everyone, including Gohan. That's it. Fight or die. Which is worse?

All Piccolo did was make Goku temporarily doubt his plan. Piccolo wanted to baby Gohan, he might as well have been Chi-Chi out there. Goku knew what he was doing and it worked.

You're trying to come at the greatest because you are a silly Vegeta fan. Face it, Goku's the GOAT.

Now you aren't even listening to what im saying, you're just repeating the same thing. How many times have I said that the greater good isn't the issue here, its Goku's mindset that was the problem, go back and re-read my post.

And don't bother with any stupid fanboy comments(though you certainly sound like one), I couldn't give less of a fuck about Goku or Vegeta or whoever being better than one another.

 

[Drkirby]

Goku literally abandons his family at the end of Z to go train with Uub.

At the End of the Manga, Goku takes Uub back to his home to train him. But GT changed it to Kami's Lookout for the begining of the plot.

 

[Drkirby]

Nah, Krillin supremacy last at least from the Nappa fight until the Cell saga at least.

Tien only kills one Saibaman. Then, tien gets his ass kicked by Nappa pretty fast in their fight and dies by using his tri beam.

Krillin is all bitch please, and kills a bunch of Saibamen in one attack. Krillin almost beats Nappa with his destructo disc.

Krillin supremacy begins there and I don't think it ever stops. Tien stops Cell and Buu with his tri beam, yeah, but at the cost of his vital energy and almost dying. That shit never won him a battle. Krillin stops Cell by plain old hitting him with no consequences.

I don't know, I feel Tien was always the better fighter, but Krillin was great at coming up with techniques.

Yamcha peaked out around 2,000-3,000

Dude was training in a gym at one point :lol

"Officially" he was the same strength as Krillin during the Android Arc, "600k"

I'm not buying it. Though to put in in Perspective, Gero and 19 were at 10 Million. And Piccolo was 20 Million after Fusing with Kami.

 

[youngwerther]

Now you aren't even listening to what im saying, you're just repeating the same thing. How many times have I said that the greater good isn't the issue here, its Goku's mindset that was the problem, go back and re-read my post.

And don't bother with any stupid fanboy comments(though you certainly sound like one), I couldn't give less of a fuck about Goku or Vegeta or whoever being better than one another.

You're throwing a tantrum.

You are trying to frame the discussion in a way that is totally irrelevant.
What good does your ideal "mindset" do if the father, the child, and the world is dead?
Does that even make sense?

I'm repeating the same thing because the thing that I am repeating is unassailable.

 

[MikeMyers]

I don't know, I feel Tien was always the better fighter, but Krillin was great at coming up with techniques.



"Officially" he was the same strength as Krillin during the Android Arc, "600k"

I'm not buying it. Though to put in in Perspective, Gero and 19 were at 10 Million. And Piccolo was 20 Million after Fusing with Kami.

How are Gero and 19 at 10 million? 2nd Form Frieza was over 1 million. 4th Form 50% Frieza tanked a Kaioken x20 from Goku, meaning that 50% Frieza was at least 20 million.

Yamucha is also highly implied to be stronger than Saiyan Arc Goku, who reached 32,000 at maximum.

 

[The Silver]

You're throwing a tantrum.

You are trying to frame the discussion in a way that is totally irrelevant.
What good does your ideal "mindset" do if the father, the child, and the world is dead?
Does that even make sense?

I'm repeating the same thing because the thing that I am repeating is unassailable.

Shouldn't get into he "u mad" argument, I could just as easily do the same to you.


If Gendo Ikari had a greater good goal from the beginning, does that somehow make him a good father all along? Is season 1 Walter White a good father because he was "providing for his family" so they wouldn't be crushed with debt?

This is how a mindset(maybe not the right word) changes things, Goku looked at the bigger picture but forgot his son's feelings along the way, however Cell needed to be stopped at any cost, I'm not arguing that and I never did.

The bold is the only thing I am saying where Goku went off track, that is it.



I'm not really liking the Walter White extreme example, eh i'll leave it there anyway, feel free to attack it.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Was it Scott McNeil who voiced Piccolo in Ocean dub?

 

[MikeMyers]

Yeah, he's also Koga in InuYasha.

 

[Drkirby]

How are Gero and 19 at 10 million? 2nd Form Frieza was over 1 million. 4th Form 50% Frieza tanked a Kaioken x20 from Goku, meaning that 50% Frieza was at least 20 million.

Yamucha is also highly implied to be stronger than Saiyan Arc Goku, who reached 32,000 at maximum.

I think the 10 Million Figure is their level before absorbing the strength of the other fighters, but I guess its a bit of a moot point since Toriyama has never officially released numbers for the Androids.

 

[MikeMyers]

The Androids shouldn't even have power levels, because you can't sense their Ki.

 

[Drkirby]

The Androids shouldn't even have power levels, because you can't sense their Ki.

Just because you can't detect their fighting spirit doesn't mean they don't have a battle power. In fact, I bet you the damn scouters would have actually worked.

 

[KidA Seven]

Shouldn't get into he "u mad" argument, I could just as easily do the same to you.


If Gendo Ikari had a greater good goal from the beginning, does that somehow make him a good father all along? Is season 1 Walter White a good father because he was "providing for his family" so they wouldn't be crushed with debt?

This is how a mindset(maybe not the right word) changes things, Goku looked at the bigger picture but forgot his son's feelings along the way, however Cell needed to be stopped at any cost, I'm not arguing that and I never did.

The bold is the only thing I am saying where Goku went off track, that is it.



I'm not really liking the Walter White extreme example, eh i'll leave it there anyway, feel free to attack it.

Sorry man, but you're wrong.


Who cares what Gohan thinks? He never complained about fighting until that very moment. Gohan was always wanting to fight and forget his studies throughout Z. How the hell was Goku supposed to know he would pussy out? Gohan had fought numerous enemies before. What was so different about Cell and Frieza? He willingly fought Frieza despite being much weaker. Don't tell me Gohan didn't intend to kill Frieza at that time Frieza almost killed Krillin?


And again, If I was a father I would rather my son fight some guy to save the world instead of considering his feelings and let him, my wife, my friends, and the rest of the earth get murdered.

 

[FreeMufasa]

I don't know, I feel Tien was always the better fighter, but Krillin was great at coming up with techniques.



"Officially" he was the same strength as Krillin during the Android Arc, "600k"

I'm not buying it. Though to put in in Perspective, Gero and 19 were at 10 Million. And Piccolo was 20 Million after Fusing with Kami.

Ha no way. Tien probably maxed around ginyu force level and that's with training everyday

 

[MikeMyers]

Just because you can't detect their fighting spirit doesn't mean they don't have a battle power. In fact, I bet you the damn scouters would have actually worked.

But the scouters track Ki, hence why when Vegeta learned how to sense Ki he didnt need a scouter anymore. If you cant sense Androids, I doubt the Scouters could register them.

Sorry man, but you're wrong.


Who cares what Gohan thinks? He never complained about fighting until that very moment. Gohan was always wanting to fight and forget his studies throughout Z. How the hell was Goku supposed to know he would pussy out? Gohan had fought numerous enemies before. What was so different about Cell and Frieza? He willingly fought Frieza despite being much weaker. Don't tell me Gohan didn't intend to kill Frieza at that time Frieza almost killed Krillin?


And again, If I was a father I would rather my son fight some guy to save the world instead of considering his feelings and let him, my wife, my friends, and the rest of the earth get murdered.

He wanted to fight Recoome but not Cell. I guess saving Vegeta is more important than saving the Earth.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Goku literally abandons his family at the end of Z to go train with Uub.

He doesn't abandon his family. That's a GT thing.

 

[LeleSocho]

Oh god how i wish this was an italian forum so i could respond with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w31VGZvNqo

Io sono Fortissimo

 

[MechaX]

And again, If I was a father I would rather my son fight some guy to save the world instead of considering his feelings and let him, my wife, my friends, and the rest of the earth get murdered.

Thinking of the greater good and doing something that makes you a bad parent are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I mean, Gendo fucking Ikari from Evangelion does this on a daily basis (despite how Goku's master plan did work mostly according to plan, it still involved leaving Gohan in the dark and throwing him at the super powered wolf, just like Gendo and... well, everything he does with Shinji Ikari). Still doesn't change the fact that he is still a really, really bad father in the process.

 

[jackal27]

Man, eff yo power levels.

After reading Dragon Ball from the beginning to the end recently, I can honestly say that I think Picollo is my favorite DB character. I really wish that him and Tien had more to do towards the end of the series.

 

[Omni]

And yet Goku was 100% correct all along and took the only possible path that had a chance of saving the Earth.
You act like Gohan would have somehow magically survived the Earth exploding if he didn't fight Cell.

Doesn't Goku give Cell a senzu bean? Reaaaaaaaally never understood that. Sure Goku thought Gohan could beat Cell... but did he really have to heal him? :lol

Hell, why didn't Vegeta step in at that point and finish Cell off? He was rather weakened. Or is that just filler?

 

[HolyCheck]

Man, eff yo power levels.

After reading Dragon Ball from the beginning to the end recently, I can honestly say that I think Picollo is my favorite DB character. I really wish that him and Tien had more to do towards the end of the series.

i'm watching draon ball for the first time now (about 50 eps in) and cant wait for some piccolo and tien, the whole red ribbon saga is so god damn boring.

 

[clay_ghost]

Doesn't Goku give Cell a senzu bean? Reaaaaaaaally never understood that. Sure Goku thought Gohan could beat Cell... but did he really have to heal him? :lol

Hell, why didn't Vegeta step in at that point and finish Cell off? He was rather weakened. Or is that just filler?

No body dare to mess with goku or cell then lol...........

It was stupid , i was like wth?

Goku thinks that Gohan will enjoy the fight lol..........

 

[FyreWulff]

Even if he wasn't the most powerful, he definitely had the best design of all the characters in the series.

There's just something badass about his turban and shouldercapething.

 

[Jado]

i'm watching draon ball for the first time now (about 50 eps in) and cant wait for some piccolo and tien, the whole red ribbon saga is so god damn boring.

The Red Ribbon saga is very good in the manga. It drags in the anime. Skip to Goku assaulting the various bases and fighting villains.

Nah, Krillin supremacy last at least from the Nappa fight until the Cell saga at least.

Tien only kills one Saibaman. Then, tien gets his ass kicked by Nappa pretty fast in their fight and dies by using his tri beam.

Krillin is all bitch please, and kills a bunch of Saibamen in one attack. Krillin almost beats Nappa with his destructo disc.

Krillin supremacy begins there and I don't think it ever stops. Tien stops Cell and Buu with his tri beam, yeah, but at the cost of his vital energy and almost dying. That shit never won him a battle. Krillin stops Cell by plain old hitting him with no consequences.

So what? TIen manhandled that one Saibaman. Piccolo also only killed one and that's no indication Krillin was stronger. What happened is that Krillin got angry after Yamcha's death and used a lot of energy to try to end the Saiyan/Saibamen in one attack. Tien could've accomplished the same thing with his standard Kikoho. Tien trashed Nappa's armor and would've seriously injured him if he had not blocked; Krillin never does that amount of damage and never poses that much of a threat in the fight. Destructo disc cut off Frieza's tail; again, that's no indication Krillin is stronger than Frieza.

Tien is verified stronger than Krillin by all official sources when they fight the Saiyans. He died because Nappa went 100% against him and straight up tried to kill him. He's toying with Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan until Vegeta warns him that someone with a 5000 power level is approaching at which point he kills Piccolo in one shot. Krillin lingering in the battle after Piccolo and Tien, both stronger characters, is simply luck.

Tien beat Goku in the 22nd world martial arts tournament, primarily because of his Kikoho. If he hadn't warned Goku to dodge it, it would have killed him.

I will concede that Krillin was stronger on Namek after getting the power boost, but that's it. I disagree that Tien's time on Kai's planet was trivial. Goku went from 450~ to 8000 in a few months. Tien, already above 1000 but with plenty of room for growth, stayed much longer training there. Goku himself could've been stronger if his training wasn't so abrupt. With conservative scaling, Tien could have easily caught up and surpassed Krillin's power boost. We could argue this forever, but there's no doubt Tien is strongest again in the Buu saga -- he's still training, while Krillin has not trained in seven years.

 

[bigDdestruction]

Did anyone know that Solar Flare and Destructo disc is the most deadly and effective combination of attacks in DBZ? Well at least up until the androids saga. Krillin had the potential to destroy frieza. I'm glad TFS brought it up, multiple times. As a kid i thought about krillin winning many fights with those attacks, but for some reason he'd never do it lol.

 

[Sickboy007]

Oh god how i wish this was an italian forum so i could respond with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w31VGZvNqo

Io sono Fortissimo

lmao, that was appreciated!

 

[Gucci Messiah]

Now you aren't even listening to what im saying, you're just repeating the same thing. How many times have I said that the greater good isn't the issue here, its Goku's mindset that was the problem, go back and re-read my post.

And don't bother with any stupid fanboy comments(though you certainly sound like one), I couldn't give less of a fuck about Goku or Vegeta or whoever being better than one another.

But what you're saying is wrong

 

[KidA Seven]

Thinking of the greater good and doing something that makes you a bad parent are not mutually exclusive concepts.
.

What kind of father wants his son to die?

 

[MikeMyers]

Doesn't Goku give Cell a senzu bean? Reaaaaaaaally never understood that. Sure Goku thought Gohan could beat Cell... but did he really have to heal him? :lol

Goku wanted to build confidence in his son, beating a weakened Cell would just seem like he had help.

The Red Ribbon saga is very good in the manga. It drags in the anime. Skip to Goku assaulting the various bases and fighting villains.

Tien beat Goku in the 22nd world martial arts tournament, primarily because of his Kikoho. If he hadn't warned Goku to dodge it, it would have killed him.

I don't think RRA arc has any anime pacing issues, although I do love the manga version. Actually I don't mind the anime's pacing until around Goku's arrival on Namek, around that time I have to fast forward a bit.

Tien beat Goku in the tournament because Tien got lucky and a car hit Goku. Tien even admits he considered it a loss.

 

[Conor 419]

Tien is definitely the most tragic character in the fiction.