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[Hagi]

Great post.

Also, the folks in this thread who don't know what black face means, here you go



IT'S BLACK FACE

Her intent may not have been racist (I dont personally know her) but the deep rooted nature in our country of white people painting their face is. Shame on her for being insensitive to that.

"Such makeup" to me at least implies a little more than a simple painting of the face brown.

I don't see it as black face but that's because my exposure to the term and its effects is most likely a lot different than anyone in America or someone who has actually has been effected by this kind of stuff. I think growing up in a small Scottish town with very little diversity you are distanced from the more subtle aspects of racism with everything for a lack of a better term being more presented as a black and white situation where things are clearly defined as being not okay to do or say.

With that said she should have put a little more thought into what people would think of her costume with her seemingly being in some sort of limelight as with most situations where a "celebrity's" ignorance causes them backlash.

 

[Darklord]

The Orange is the New Black character her costume was inspired by

And here's what she looks like out of costume, for those unfamiliar with her

That's not blackface and how is that offence but this isn't?

It's not meant to be offensive, it's dressing up.

 

[YoungHav]

I was Batman once, didn't put white face on though. Whites have a strange obsession with Blacks. My friend did blackface as Serena Williams last yr lol.

 

[Supermanisdead]

That's not blackface and how is that offence but this isn't?

It's not meant to be offensive, it's dressing up.

jesus. fucking. christ. lol.

 

[Slayven]

That's not blackface and how is that offence but this isn't?

It's not meant to be offensive, it's dressing up.

You didn't see the movie did you?

 

[Darklord]

You didn't see the movie did you?

Yeah I did. But he's still dressed as a black guy and in "blackface". This women is dressed as a black character from a tv show isn't she? She's not wearing fat red lips and an afro. How is it different? There's no stereotyping going on.

 

[YoungHav]

 

[Slayven]

Yeah I did. But he's still dressed as a black guy and in "blackface". This women is dressed as a black character from a tv show isn't she? She's not wearing fat red lips and an afro. How is it different? There's no stereotyping going on.

The fact that the characters went at length explaining how he was being racist and the point where he realized that he went too far just flew right over your head? If so just say so. Context is everything my friend.

 

[Randy Monk]

So its only blackface if you do it outside the confines of a movie or comedy skit?

There are no other instances where a non black person can paint their face black without it being labelled blackface?

 

[Slayven]

So its only blackface if you do it outside the confines of a movie or comedy skit?

There are no other instances where a non black person can paint their face black without it being labelled blackface?

Why would they need or want too?

 

[Darklord]

The fact that the characters went at length explaining how he was being racist and the point where he realized that he went too far just flew right over your head? If so just say so. Context is everything my friend.

So it's perfectly okay to dress as a black guy as long as you call it a joke but not when you're just simply dressing as a black character with no stereotyping or racist tones around it? There is NOTHING in that costume that is blackface. Blackface is a mocking of stereotypical black people. Fat lips, afro, eating a water melon, that shit.

 

[WoodWERD]

I think it's a great (group) costume. I guess I could see her pulling it off without the bronze fake-tan but I have a hard time understanding the anger.

 

[nateeasy]

Everyone in this thread is a racist.

 

[Htown]

Should I be mad if I see a black Mario or Luigi this Halloween? Please.

jesus christ

 

[Popnbake]

Yeah I did. But he's still dressed as a black guy and in "blackface". This women is dressed as a black character from a tv show isn't she? She's not wearing fat red lips and an afro. How is it different? There's no stereotyping going on.

I think this can help clarify why it wasn't viewed as negatively:

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Edit...eserves-An-Oscar-For-Tropic-Thunder-9797.html

Lazarus is, in essence, a parody of Robert Downey Jr. himself. He’s an incredibly talented Hollywood actor and a man with a troubled past. He’s also mentally unstable and when he’s involved in a project he becomes so committed to his role that he often forgets who he really is. He’s Robert Downey Jr. times a thousand, RDJ if he’d taken his acting completely over the edge. In Tropic Thunder Lazarus really goes too far, undergoing a surgery which artificially dyes his skin in order to play a black man.

Though RDJ walks around on screen made up as a black man, there’s nothing racist about it, and that’s due in no small part to his incredible performance. Downey is in effect, playing two different characters here, one stacked on top of the other. On the surface, at least in his own mind, he’s actually a black army Sergeant. Below that, buried somewhere, hidden maybe even from himself, he’s Kirk Lazarus, a confused and well-meaning Australian actor who seems to have forgotten who he really is. It’s because Lazarus means well in what he’s doing, and because the character himself so completely buys into what he’s doing that there’s nothing racist at all about his performance. Blackface is such a heinous thing because of the disgusting way it was used to demean and degrade African Americans. Downey uses it here instead, to mock the way Hollywood often uses and misuses racial stereotypes.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20182058,00.html?iid=top25-20080306-First+Look:+Stiller's+new+movie

Robert Downey Jr. plays Kirk Lazarus, a very serious Oscar-winning actor cast in the most expensive Vietnam War film ever. Problem is, Lazarus's character, Sgt. Osiris, was originally written as black. So Lazarus decides to dye his skin and play Osiris, um, authentically. Funny? Sure. Dangerous? That's an understatement. ''If it's done right, it could be the type of role you called Peter Sellers to do 35 years ago,'' Downey says. ''If you don't do it right, we're going to hell.'

Stiller says that he and Downey always stayed focused on the fact that they were skewering insufferable actors, not African-Americans. ''I was trying to push it as far as you can within reality,'' Stiller explains. ''I had no idea how people would respond to it.'' He recently screened a rough cut of the film and it scored high with African-Americans. He was relieved at the reaction. ''It seems people really embrace it,'' he says.

Paramount is hoping so: The studio plans to debut the trailer online March 17, and Downey is all over it. (In one scene, he tries to bond with a real African-American castmate by quoting the theme song from The Jeffersons.) Downey, meanwhile, is confident he never crossed the line. ''At the end of the day, it's always about how well you commit to the character,'' he says. ''I dove in with both feet. If I didn't feel it was morally sound, or that it would be easily misinterpreted that I'm just C. Thomas Howell in [Soul Man], I would've stayed home.''

 

[WoodWERD]

jesus christ

Yeah yeah, not the same...caught me before I edited.

 

[justjohn]

I love the comment at the end." Not too funny, its fucking hilarious". Such evil heartlessness you just have to laugh but not surprised.

 

[Darklord]

I think this can help clarify things:

Ok so it's not racist. How is this racist then? People are honestly comparing what this woman is wearing to THIS?

 

[Supermanisdead]

"i don't get it. why are you offended??"

"well..."

"god shutup, pc police over sensitive wah wah wah"

 

[Maxim726X]

Ok so it's not racist. How is this racist then? People are honestly comparing what this woman is wearing to THIS?

Yeah, I don't get it either. But I'm white, so apparently that's the reason.

 

[Coreda]

Facebook photos

That is inexcusable, and more than offensive. However it is even without the makeup.

 

[Supermanisdead]

it's like you are intentionally ignoring the issue here. obviously this isn't minstrel show shit, but its still insensitive. if you want to portray a character from a popular new show - dress as them. their race is not a part of the costume. style your hair like them, dress in the same clothes, adopt the same mannerisms, have at it. why do you have to colour your skin?

 

[Maxim726X]

it's like you are intentionally ignoring the issue here. obviously this isn't minstrel show shit, but its still insensitive. if you want to portray a character from a popular new show - dress as them. their race is not a part of the costume. style your hair like them, dress in the same clothes, adopt the same mannerisms, have at it. why do you have to colour your skin?

Was it stupid, and in bad taste? Yes.

Was it racist? I don't see how. A person's race is a facet of their character, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Darklord]

it's like you are intentionally ignoring the issue here. obviously this isn't minstrel show shit, but its still insensitive. if you want to portray a character from a popular new show - dress as them. their race is not a part of the costume. style your hair like them, dress in the same clothes, adopt the same mannerisms, have at it. why do you have to colour your skin?

Why should it be a taboo to colour your skin in a non-offensive way? Is the simple fact of different skin tone offensive now? What's racist and insensitive is the stereotyping or using it to mock/degrade/demean a race is someway, not just dressing as them. I've seen black people dress to have white skin, is that insensitive too? You say it's not about minstrel shit so yes, that comparison should apply here.

 

[JDSN]

Yeah I did. But he's still dressed as a black guy and in "blackface". This women is dressed as a black character from a tv show isn't she? She's not wearing fat red lips and an afro. How is it different? There's no stereotyping going on.

You didnt see the movie.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I don't see how this is considered racist at all. Are we just supposed to pretend that racial differences don't exist? She wanted to look more like the character she was cosplaying and went the extra mile. I highly doubt the thought "hey I bet if I do this I can piss off some black people" crossed her mind while doing it, so to get outraged like that was her intention is just dumb. Save it for actual assholes like that Trayvon guy posted above.

 

[Supermanisdead]

it's trivializing to reduce an entire race into something that can be washed away. don't know what else you could say about it. when something offends so many people, don't call them out for being overly sensitive. think about why it offends them. there's a reason why these stories always get coverage - and why the people in them invariably issue some kind of apology - whether you want to deal with it or not.

I don't see how this is considered racist at all. Are we just supposed to pretend that racial differences don't exist? She wanted to look more like the character she was cosplaying and went the extra mile. I highly doubt the thought "hey I bet if I do this I can piss off some black people" crossed her mind while doing it, so to get outraged like that was her intention is just dumb. Save it for actual assholes like that Trayvon guy posted above.

so we're supposed to believe she painted her skin dark to truly get into the character but somehow forgot to get the hair colour right? it's just another check in a long list of dumb decisions by people. don't defend it. she certainly won't, when news gets back to her.

 

[Randy Monk]

Why would they need or want too?

Same reason why people paint themselves green to be the hulk or paint their faces white to portray a geisha girl or any reason why they would want to portray a particular character. Most people might be ok with wearing a costume or change of clothing but some might want to go the extra mile.

There are some obvious instances of blackface and some like that Trayvon Martin setup that should be frowned upon and not accepted at any level.

 

[modulaire]

it's like you are intentionally ignoring the issue here. obviously this isn't minstrel show shit, but its still insensitive. if you want to portray a character from a popular new show - dress as them. their race is not a part of the costume. style your hair like them, dress in the same clothes, adopt the same mannerisms, have at it. why do you have to colour your skin?

So let me get this straight.

It's ok to copy the hairstyle, clothes, mannerisms - but not the skin color (that's also part of the person/character)?

This whole thing is overblown and because of "scandals" like this people are numb to real issues when they really shoud be offended and outraged.

 

[Slayven]

Same reason why people paint themselves green to be the hulk or paint their faces white to portray a geisha girl or any reason why they would want to portray a particular character. Most people might be ok with wearing a costume or change of clothing but some might want to go the extra mile.

There are some obvious instances of blackface and some like that Trayvon Martin setup that should be frowned upon and not accepted at any level.

But what does being black have to do with the character? The examples you are posted are iconic and unique to the character. Being black isn't a defining trait.

 

[Supermanisdead]

So let me get this straight.

It's ok to copy the hairstyle, clothes, mannerisms - but not the skin color (that's also part of the character)?

This whole thing is overblown and because of "scandals" like this people are numb to real issues when they really shoud be offended and outraged.

DING DING DING DING DING. EXACTLY.

and lol at your "but you should really be offended by this." give me a break. this is a neogaf thread about a news piece. right now i'm actually more offended by the embarrassing lineup in this season of project runway all stars than anything.

 

[Maxim726X]

DING DING DING DING DING. EXACTLY.

Why?

The character is black, just like she is female, just like she has black hair, just like she is 5'5, just like she has a size 6 shoe...

But her skin color is the one thing it's not okay to imitate?

But what does being black have to do with the character? The examples you are posted are iconic and unique to the character. Being black isn't a defining trait.

No, it's a single trait in a long list of traits. It just happens to be skin color, which apparently we're not ready to really have a discussion about in this country.

 

[Supermanisdead]

yup. that's the nail on the hammer. don't turn race into a costume. simple as fucking that. not only is there years and years of nasty, violent history that can never be removed from the practice, but it's still something clearly distasteful and ignorant. if you don't see it, then what can i do.

but i'd be deeply disturbed if someone went so far as to literally shorten themselves for a halloween costume tho

 

[Slayven]

Why?

The character is black, just like she is female, just like she has black hair, just like she is 5'5, just like she has a size 6 shoe...

But her skin color is the one thing it's not okay to imitate?

You just described generic black woman. Crazy eyes is know for being crazy, having a crush on the main character, and quoting Shakespeare.

 

[Goku]

So its only blackface if you do it outside the confines of a movie or comedy skit?

There are no other instances where a non black person can paint their face black without it being labelled blackface?

I thought blackface originated from movies and comedy skits/theaters

 

[MilesWebber]

Three shade darker spray tan than usual is not blackface.

 

[Darklord]

it's trivializing to reduce an entire race into something that can be washed away. don't know what else you could say about it.

It's an imitation, not a replication. It doesn't reduce an entire race to anything. She's not wanting to be black or trying to trick people that she's black, she's imitating a character who just happens to be black. If she was seriously dressing and going "I'm a black woman!' then you point would stand.

How does it not trivialize it when it's a joke too? Because there are plenty of characters who dress up as other races but don't cop flak for it. For example in Scrubs, JD imagines himself as a black guy. Fully coloured in black with a bald head. Nobody was upset over that.

 

[Maxim726X]

You just described generic black woman. Crazy eyes is know for being crazy, having a crush on the main character, and quoting Shakespeare.

That had nothing to do with the character in question, just used to exemplify a check list of attributes that could be used to describe anyone at all. Would it make you feel better if I described a white woman?

HEIGHT: 5'5
EYE COLOR: Blue
HAIR COLOR: Blonde
SKIN COLOR: White

One of these isn't okay to emulate, the others are. PS- Most black women do have those physical attributes, just as many Asian women have long straight black hair and black eyes. It isn't being racist, it's being accurate.

 

[Coreda]

So to summarize, what I've found from this thread is it's not the actual appearance of someone using makeup to darken their skin (as this can be a deliberate cosmetic choice, too), but rather the association with racism in the past - which as Supe has pointed out can't easily be forgotten - that upsets so many people.

The post I made in the last page was wondering about the distinction between cosmetic, long-term physical appearance choices and one-off cosplays, and it seems even intention doesn't come into this - again because of past abuse. Also because people who excessively tan, etc don't do it to imitate a person's skin color (although some might if they thought it attractive). It's complicated...

I wonder had the world had a fresh start whether anyone would mind.

 

[Simplet]

Lazarus is, in essence, a parody of Robert Downey Jr. himself. He’s an incredibly talented Hollywood actor and a man with a troubled past. He’s also mentally unstable and when he’s involved in a project he becomes so committed to his role that he often forgets who he really is. He’s Robert Downey Jr. times a thousand, RDJ if he’d taken his acting completely over the edge. In Tropic Thunder Lazarus really goes too far, undergoing a surgery which artificially dyes his skin in order to play a black man.

Though RDJ walks around on screen made up as a black man, there’s nothing racist about it, and that’s due in no small part to his incredible performance. Downey is in effect, playing two different characters here, one stacked on top of the other. On the surface, at least in his own mind, he’s actually a black army Sergeant. Below that, buried somewhere, hidden maybe even from himself, he’s Kirk Lazarus, a confused and well-meaning Australian actor who seems to have forgotten who he really is. It’s because Lazarus means well in what he’s doing, and because the character himself so completely buys into what he’s doing that there’s nothing racist at all about his performance. Blackface is such a heinous thing because of the disgusting way it was used to demean and degrade African Americans. Downey uses it here instead, to mock the way Hollywood often uses and misuses racial stereotypes.

What the? I don't have the first clue what's going on here. I'm kind of glad I don't to be honest.

 

[Kinyou]

yup. that's the nail on the hammer. don't turn race into a costume. simple as fucking that. not only is there years and years of nasty, violent history that can never be removed from the practice, but it's still something clearly distasteful and ignorant. if you don't see it, then what can i do.

but i'd be deeply disturbed if someone went so far as to literally shorten themselves for a halloween costume tho

But race can be a costume. Or are all the "white face" comedies like whitechicks racist as well?

Or what about Cloud Atlas, that movie put basically every actor into a different race or gender.

 

[Korey]

So to summarize, what I've found from this thread is it's not the actual appearance of someone using makeup to darken their skin (as this can be a deliberate cosmetic choice, too), but rather the association with racism in the past - which as Supe has pointed out can't easily be forgotten - that upsets so many people.

The post I made in the last page was wondering about the distinction between cosmetic, long-term physical appearance choices and one-off cosplays, and it seems even intention doesn't come into this - again because of past abuse. Also because people who excessively tan, etc don't do it to imitate a person's skin color (although some might if they thought it attractive). It's complicated...

I wonder had the world had a fresh start whether anyone would mind.

We don't live in a vacuum, and people should realize that.

It's not about being deliberately offensive, it's about being insensitive. Julianne Hough should have known better, but her apology is good enough...it shows that she understands now why it offends people and that she regrets doing it.

But race can be a costume. Or are all the "white face" comedies like whitechicks racist as well?

Or what about Cloud Atlas, that movie put basically every actor into a different race or gender.

Context is important. White Chicks may be slightly uncomfortable, but it's barely if at all racist because white face isn't a thing and there's no historical baggage to go with it. In Cloud Atlas, it's done to serve the purpose and theme of the movie, not to caricaturize or parody the races.

 

[SmileBit199]

So can African American people dress up as white characters/people? Is this supposed to offend white people?

People seem to have too much time on their hands if they get offended by stuff like this.

 

[Gattsu25]

I don't see why she needed to darken her skin tone to portray the character she dressed as..

Someone help me to understand.

 

[ComputerMKII]

How are you supposed to pronounce Julianne Hough?

 

[Ovid]

How are you supposed to pronounce Julianne Hough?

Pronounced -- Huff

 

[Thorakai]

So can African American people dress up as white characters/people? Is this supposed to offend white people?

People seem to have too much time on their hands if they get offended by stuff like this.

It looks like people in this thread are offended at the list of posters dismissing any qualms about this act being offensive more so than the act itself.

 

[Newline]

Us brits are fine with this.

It's hard to find it offensive when it's done right:

 

[xenist]

Fuck yeah it's racist.

And the one dressed like Pornstache is sexist.

Get out of here with this bullshit outrage.

 

[Kreed]

But race can be a costume. Or are all the "white face" comedies like whitechicks racist as well?

Or what about Cloud Atlas, that movie put basically every actor into a different race or gender.

1) In Cloud Atlas,

Spoiler

reincarnation was heavy in the plot, so this was necessary for the movie in order for the audience to connect the characters together in different time periods.

2) Dressing up as a character for Halloween isn't the same as dressing up as a character for a film or a comedy skit. Films and skits have stories behind them and are usually connected to the performance, which is why the film images being posted in this thread don't relate to this situation at all.

3) What is offensive and/or discriminatory to one ethnic group doesn't necessarily mean it will also be offensive and/or discriminatory to another ethnic group. For example:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=702640

In the thread above, a young black male was arrested for purchasing a belt at a Barneys store in New York because the police and or managers at Barneys assumed he couldn't afford the belt/he must have been using stolen credit cards to obtain the belt.

Had this been a young man from another ethnic group, I doubt this story would have ever been a story at all. But because of the history of discrimination US black people as a group have dealt with, it increases the negativity of this incident. Did the police/managers harass the young man for being black? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but the history of these situations doesn't help their case.

Obviously this situation is a lot different than the situation going on with the actress and the Halloween costume, and they are not equal in any regard. I'm just illustrating that history is important and that when it comes to ethnic discrimination/being offended and comparing one ethnic group to another, there will never be a 1 =1 scenario. Dave Chappelle doing a skit in white make up will never be offensive to as many people as an Al Jolson in blackface when you include the history the ethnic groups.