So an actor gets a pass because it's just a role? Why doesn't a person get a pass because it's just a costume? That logic is flawed.
The only thing that changes the context of any of the situations you listed is intent.
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Julianne Hough (Actress/Singer/Dancer) Blackface Halloween costume
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So an actor gets a pass because it's just a role? Why doesn't a person get a pass because it's just a costume? That logic is flawed.
The only thing that changes the context of any of the situations you listed is intent.
Are you for real? Coloured implies that the default skin tone for everyone is white, and not being white is against the norm. Is that what you are saying to me? Is that how you feel?
sorry we say "coloured" in italian because we see "black" as racist, so I did the same in english, I don't have to call people depending on their skin feature very often so I made a literal translation.
I will use black then.
We used coloured to avoid distinctions between skin colors, we don't use coloured with white people of course but coloured is only used when we talk about racism made by whites.
We don't use coloured out of the racism context.
Regardless if it's only an American thing(which it isn't) they are still doing blackface.
The only purpose of blackface is to demean and ridicule "coloured" people(as you call us). For that simple fact, their motivation is irrelevant
Nigger is very much an American thing. Would you call "coloured" people niggers?
That is ridiculous. The people here who have issue with painting yourself to look black wouldn't give two flying fucks about her costume if she hadn't painted her skin.
1) the girls doesn't seem to be a black face at all, she's Crazy Eyes from OITNB
2) I just explained what the gut at the party were referring to, of course it's racist, but because it was an african themed party, so we know what they meant with their costumes. For any other people in my country, where that character originated(despite being inspired by the american blackface, directly or indirectly), people dressed like that are impersonating the guy/monster from the Tabu spot, not a black guy.
It was just a precisation.
Anyway I think that some character can be represented without skin painting, for example Batman who has a distinctive suit.
But what about Charles Xavier from X-Men insted?Will you be able to recognize instantly a bald black guy on a wheelchair dressed like the one in the movie as Xavier ?
I don't think so.
It's hard to impersonate someone with few distinctive features if you don't look like him.
The girl in the op tried anyway, clearly her hair style and the prison suit weren't enough, so she added the paint. The result was that when I wattched the photo I recognized her as crazy eyes immediatly.
Count Dookkake
Member
OK, yes...I agree with anything a feminist has ever said. Do you have a point?
If your answer is serious, what you lack in argument is at least matched by a lack of hypocrisy.
I'd say it definitely is fucked up. No kinda about it.
Eh, I think she's tasteful about it. Just looking more like the character.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I think he was talking about the Trayvon costume.Eh, I think she's tasteful about it. Just looking more like the character.
Eh, I think she's tasteful about it. Just looking more like the character.
I was referring to your treyvon blackface is kinda fucked up" statement, haha. We agree about Julianne Hough's costume. It's harmless.
So an actor gets a pass because it's just a role? Why doesn't a person get a pass because it's just a costume? That logic is flawed.
The only thing that changes the context of any of the situations you listed is intent.
That's besides the point, because it's clear you haven't watched the movie
Jest Chillin
Member
So an actor gets a pass because it's just a role? Why doesn't a person get a pass because it's just a costume? That logic is flawed.
The only thing that changes the context of any of the situations you listed is intent.
In a movie role, the word is usually (I say usually because there can obviously be exceptions) used by a character in context of a time period or a characters personal beliefs. It's necessary for a believable performance. That's different than a person using the word in everyday life as that is an expression of their own beliefs.
Someone wearing a costume for Halloween isn't performing the character. They're simply dressed as a character. That's one of the distinctions that also makes me disagree with those who are saying she was "cosplaying" the character. People don't "cosplay" for Halloween. There's typically no performance aspect whatsoever. It's just a costume.
That's besides the point, because it's clear you haven't watched the movie
I've watched it. I found Downy hilarious in it. I don't see how that's beside the point.
In a movie role, the word is usually (I say usually because there can obviously be exceptions) used by a character in context of a time period or a characters personal beliefs. It's necessary for a believable performance. That's different than a person using the word in everyday life as that is an expression of their own beliefs.
Someone wearing a costume for Halloween isn't performing the character. They're simply dressed as a character. That's one of the distinctions that also makes me disagree with those who are saying she was "cosplaying" the character. People don't "cosplay" for Halloween. There's typically no performance aspect whatsoever. It's just a costume.
Cosplay or dress up in a Halloween Costume, same thing. Arguing one is more valid than another is semantics. If a white actor is cast in a black role and their face is painted to appear black and they do what Downy did with it, it's not offensive because they intent wasn't to be racist. If a white actor is cast in a black role and has their face painted to appear black and they play to disparaging sterotypes with the intent of being offensive then that is racist. Same applies to costumes. One guy dresses up as a freshly shot Treyvon Martin, with the intent to offend. One dresses up as her favorite character in a TV show, without the intent to offend. It really is that simple.
Definition: The makeup used by a nonblack performer playing a black role. The role played is typically comedic or musical and usually is considered offensive.
Anything which purposely utilizes stereotypes and characteristics to intentionally offend and ridicule.
Whether or not this is "blackface" is besides the point. The point is that it is considered offensive for someone to paint their face black in order to portray a black person....the essential ingredients of what blackface is. It is far too reminiscent of actual blackface and actual minstrel shows.
No, she didn't intend to offend anyone and she didn't have any racist motives, which is fine...which is also why she apologized. But I'm surprised that she would be so clueless as to do something like that.
Whether or not this is "blackface" is besides the point. The point is that it is considered offensive for someone to paint their face black in order to portray a black person....the essential ingredients of what blackface is. It is far too reminiscent of actual blackface and actual minstrel shows.
No, she didn't intend to offend anyone and she didn't have any racist motives, which is fine...which is also why she apologized. But I'm surprised that she would be so clueless as to do something like that.
I can't believe that's offensive.
Whether or not this is "blackface" is besides the point. The point is that it is considered offensive for someone to paint their face black in order to portray a black person....the essential ingredients of what blackface is. It is far too reminiscent of actual blackface and actual minstrel shows.
No, she didn't intend to offend anyone or have racist motives, which is fine...which is also why she apologized. But I'm surprised that she would be so clueless as to do something like that.
It's part of the point, isn't it?
Should she have to be publicly shamed and apologize for people seeing something that isn't there? The title of the article even says 'Blackface' in huge bold letters.
And I agree it was stupid, and she shouldn't have done it because I do see where the outrage comes from... But there are times where the outrage is completely justified, and there are times where it is not.
Whether or not this is "blackface" is besides the point. The point is that it is considered offensive for someone to paint their face black in order to portray a black person....the essential ingredients of what blackface is. It is far too reminiscent of actual blackface and actual minstrel shows.
Is this your opinion or a general concensus? I don't see why it should be such a sensitive issue, people use make up and masks to look similar to other races all the time.
The circular and faulty logic of people in this thread is hilarious, but what I despise in any discussion is when people actively attempt to just shut down the debate. "This is racist and if you defend it then you're evil", "If you're not black then you just don't 'get it'", "The dictionary definition of 'Blackface' has no place in this discussion". When you descend to that type of level, then you have already lost.
Os opposed to everyone decrying what Julianne Hough did, who have all watched OITNB? lol In any case, how is this factor even relevant?
That's besides the point, because it's clear you haven't watched the movie
Os opposed to everyone decrying what Julianne Hough did, who have all watched OITNB? lol In any case, how is this factor even relevant?
Is this your opinion or a general concensus? I don't see why it should be such a sensitive issue, people use make up and masks to look similar to other races all the time.
When?
One poster had a really good point, since people are looking for racism where there is none.
If they paint skin black = racism
If they don't = racism
I don't understand how painting your skin in a colour that represent the person you are trying to look as racism.
Is it racist when you describe them as well for someone, let say, you have a friend that you try to explain to someone that isn't friend with said person, and you say they are black?
If they paint skin black = racism
If they don't = racism
I don't understand how painting your skin in a colour that represent the person you are trying to look as racism.
Is it racist when you describe them as well for someone, let say, you have a friend that you try to explain to someone that isn't friend with said person, and you say they are black?
When?
Obama mask.
So are black people masks fine or does it only become offensive if you use paint?
It's part of the point, isn't it?
Should she have to be publicly shamed and apologize for people seeing something that isn't there? The title of the article even says 'Blackface' in huge bold letters.
And I agree it was stupid, and she shouldn't have done it because I do see where the outrage comes from... But there are times where the outrage is completely justified, and there are times where it is not.
People who don't know her are going to assume that she's doing it to be offensive, since painting one's face black had just but one way of being interpreted: blackface in minstrel shows.
A white person altering their skin color or other features to mimic another race is always a bad idea. If you don't get what "the big deal" is, then just sit this one out. Don't accuse others of being overly sensitive about something that will never directly affect you - you're not in a position to make that call.
As far as Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder goes, he was playing a guy who didn't "get it". [That's the joke.] He and the writers of the film were able to pull it off without offending everyone because they approached the subject like people who do "get it". The 20-something actress in the OP didn't "get it" - she comes off as being ignorant.
As far as Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder goes, he was playing a guy who didn't "get it". [That's the joke.] He and the writers of the film were able to pull it off without offending everyone because they approached the subject like people who do "get it". The 20-something actress in the OP didn't "get it" - she comes off as being ignorant.
People who don't know her are going to assume that she's doing it to be offensive, since painting one's face black had just but one way of being interpreted: blackface in minstrel shows.
Well that's not true either, as there have been multiple examples of comedians and actors donning it (satirically, I know) but they weren't viewed in that light.
Jest Chillin
Member
I've watched it. I found Downy hilarious in it. I don't see how that's beside the point.
Cosplay or dress up in a Halloween Costume, same thing. Arguing one is more valid than another is semantics. If a white actor is cast in a black role and their face is painted to appear black and they do what Downy did with it, it's not offensive because they intent wasn't to be racist. If a white actor is cast in a black role and has their face painted to appear black and they play to disparaging sterotypes with the intent of being offensive then that is racist. Same applies to costumes. One guy dresses up as a freshly shot Treyvon Martin, with the intent to offend. One dresses up as her favorite character in a TV show, without the intent to offend. It really is that simple.
Cosplay, traditionally, involves roleplaying the character. Halloween, traditionally, involves wearing the costume, collecting candy, and otherwise being yourself.
Also, it seems as if Downey's character in Tropic Thunder does go over your head. That character is specifically designed to lampoon exactly the type of thing that happened here with Julianne. His Australian character fails to realize that taking the role of a stereotypical black character and darkening his skin is intensely insensitive and offensive. That character brushes off criticism in the exact same manner as we're seeing in this thread (He did it for realism/accuracy). The movie designed him to blatantly point out how foolish such a thought is. They hammer this throughout the movie by having Downey's character stay "method" even after they figure out they're no longer filming (i.e. he continues to take the role too far well into the area of poor taste). He just doesn't get it even with Brandon Jackson's character (Alpa Chino) constantly showing his anger and distaste for it.
RDJ - "What do you mean 'you people?' "
BJ - "What do YOU mean 'you people?' "
RDJ - "Huh?"
Why focus on the hair? Because it has a distinct pigment that might help identify the individual?
(Note I had no idea who Ichigo was I had to google it)
Cause the character is noted for having weird hair by Japanese standards and was picked on for it. Part of his black story.
Cosplay, traditionally, involves roleplaying the character. Halloween, traditionally, involves wearing the costume, collecting candy, and otherwise being yourself.
Also, it seems as if Downey's character in Tropic Thunder does go over your head. That character is specifically designed to lampoon exactly the type of thing that happened here with Julianne. His Australian character fails to realize that taking the role of a stereotypical black character and darkening his skin is intensely insensitive and offensive. That character brushes off criticism in the exact same manner as we're seeing in this thread (He did it for realism/accuracy). The movie designed him to blatantly point out how foolish such a thought is. They hammer this throughout the movie by having Downey's character stay "method" even after they figure out they're no longer filming (i.e. he continues to take the role too far well into the area of poor taste). He just doesn't get it even with Brandon Jackson's character (Alpa Chino) constantly showing his anger and distaste for it.
RDJ - "What do you mean 'you people?' "
BJ - "What do YOU mean 'you people?' "
RDJ - "Huh?"
I get it. Didn't need the explanation. Fucking talking to walls in this thread.
Obama mask.
So are black people masks fine or does it only become offensive if you use paint?
As long as the mask are negative. Nothing wrong with them because they copying the whole look of the person something unique to him. But just paying your skin black is lazy, their are millions of black people.
starchild excalibur
Member
Cosplay, traditionally, involves roleplaying the character. Halloween, traditionally, involves wearing the costume, collecting candy, and otherwise being yourself.
Also, it seems as if Downey's character in Tropic Thunder does go over your head. That character is specifically designed to lampoon exactly the type of thing that happened here with Julianne. His Australian character fails to realize that taking the role of a stereotypical black character and darkening his skin is intensely insensitive and offensive. That character brushes off criticism in the exact same manner as we're seeing in this thread (He did it for realism/accuracy). The movie designed him to blatantly point out how foolish such a thought is. They hammer this throughout the movie by having Downey's character stay "method" even after they figure out they're no longer filming (i.e. he continues to take the role too far well into the area of poor taste). He just doesn't get it even with Brandon Jackson's character (Alpa Chino) constantly showing his anger and distaste for it.
RDJ - "What do you mean 'you people?' "
BJ - "What do YOU mean 'you people?' "
RDJ - "Huh?"
Ironically, I find it interesting how the only way blackface gets a pass in today's media is by masquerading it as a critique of blackface. Tropic Thunder does this as a couple of other programs that I also enjoy (That Mitchell & Webb Look and Always Sunny in particular come to mind). It makes it socially acceptable because it's used as a means of making fun of someone who is too clueless to see what the issue is, but all the while we're still laughing at what is essentially RDJ doing blackface.
I'm not offended by it, but I just find it kind of a lazy trope at this point.
Jest Chillin
Member
I get it. Didn't need the explanation. Fucking talking to walls in this thread.
If you get it, then you should understand that using Downey as an example of people not being offended by it doesn't work because the intent is to lampoon the action of wearing paint to portray a black person.
It's not an accepted instance of it happening. It's the exact opposite.
Yes an actor gets a pass because actors are not the characters they play.So an actor gets a pass because it's just a role? Why doesn't a person get a pass because it's just a costume? That logic is flawed.
The only thing that changes the context of any of the situations you listed is intent.
There is a huge difference between an actor dressing up as a Klansmen in a movie and the same actor dressing a klansmen in his personal life.
I have never said that she was in blackface. My issue with her costume and other people who paint themselves black is this. To most people a black person's most defining characteristic is their skin color.
Regardless of any unique characteristics a person may possess, they are black before they are anything else.
The character that Julianne Hough went dressed as has quite a few distinguishing other than the color of her skin but that was the one thing she took time to get right.
Someone in here said that one of Obama's most defining characteristics is the color of his skin, not how big his ears are, not the mole on his face or even his unique speech pattern. Is the fact that Bill Clinton is white his most defining characteristic?
The problem with costumes like this is, they are reducing someone down to the most superficial aspect of that person. Just like minstrel shows used to do.
1. You and I weren't even discussing the woman or her costume, we were talking about the pictures I posted.1) the girls doesn't seem to be a black face at all, she's Crazy Eyes from OITNB
2) I just explained what the gut at the party were referring to, of course it's racist, but because it was an african themed party, so we know what they meant. But for any other people in my country, where that character originated(despite being inspired by the american blackface, directly or indirectly), people dressed like that are impersonating the guy/monster from the Tabu spot, not a black guy.
It was just a precisation.
2. Regardless of intent, blackface is racist and they were in blackface. I don't care if they are impersonating so random guy from Italy it is still blackface.
Well that's not true either, as there have been multiple examples of comedians and actors donning it (satirically, I know) but they weren't viewed in that light.
Like who?
When?
All the time?
Halloween, movies, theater, cosplay, etc etc, really.
I personally think make up is in poor taste, but only because her facial features clash too much, so she looks dumb, but racist? I don't know.
Professional cosplayers go the extra mile and some change the tone of their skin to resemble the character more closely, how can that be racist? they are obviously fans.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
To be fair, Obama being black is a huge characteristic to who he is because he is the first black president. Clinton wasn't the first white anything. Well, maybe the first white guy to get caught getting a bj in his office.Yes an actor gets a pass because actors are not the characters they play.
There is a huge difference between an actor dressing up as a Klansmen in a movie and the same actor dressing a klansmen in his personal life.
I have never said that she was in blackface. My issue with her costume and other people who paint themselves black is this. To most people a black person's most defining characteristic is their skin color.
Regardless of any unique characteristics a person may possess, they are black before they are anything else.
The character that Julianne Hough went dressed as has quite a few distinguishing other than the color of her skin but that was the one thing she took time to get right.
Someone in here said that one of Obama's most defining characteristics is the color of his skin, not how big his ears are, not the mole on his face or even his unique speech pattern. Is the fact that Bill Clinton is white his most defining characteristic?
The problem with costumes like this is, they are reducing someone down to the most superficial aspect of that person. Just like minstrel shows used to do.
1. You and I weren't even discussing the woman or her costume, we were talking about the pictures I posted.
2. Regardless of intent, blackface is racist and they were in blackface. I don't care if they are impersonating so random guy from Italy it is still blackface.
Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but if I had to describe Clinton physically to someone who had no idea who he was or the history of race of the elected Presidents of America I would probably still mention him being white as a key characteristic of his appearance.
All the time?
Halloween, movies, theater, cosplay, etc etc, really.
I personally think make up is in poor taste, but only because her facial features clash too much, so she looks dumb, but racist? I don't know.
Professional cosplayers go the extra mile and some change the tone of their skin to resemble the character more closely, how can that be racist? they are obviously fans.
Not racist but shows a lack of sensitivity and piss poor judgement.
If you get it, then you should understand that using Downey as an example of people not being offended by it doesn't work because the intent is to lampoon the action of wearing paint to portray a black person.
It's not an accepted instance of it happening. It's the exact opposite.
Right, poor example. Oh wait, my bad... subtext. Okay lets go with the word"subtext" instead of "intent". There was no malicious subtext in either of these cases. Neither was presented as racist by RDJ or JH.
If you get it, then you should understand that using Downey as an example of people not being offended by it doesn't work because the intent is to lampoon the action of wearing paint to portray a black person.
It's not an accepted instance of it happening. It's the exact opposite.
It's to lampoon the racial stereotypes that are classically associated with the character he represented.
He could have easily been a walking trope without the makeup.
Which is really the point, isn't it? There is more to blackface than just putting on makeup.
Then why dress up as anyone ever? I mean it's all should be offensive not just thing associated with black characters. There cloths aren't a defining characteristic, neither is the hair, nor how they look.Yes an actor gets a pass because actors are not the characters they play.
There is a huge difference between an actor dressing up as a Klansmen in a movie and the same actor dressing a klansmen in his personal life.
I have never said that she was in blackface. My issue with her costume and other people who paint themselves black is this. To most people a black person's most defining characteristic is their skin color.
Regardless of any unique characteristics a person may possess, they are black before they are anything else.
The character that Julianne Hough went dressed as has quite a few distinguishing other than the color of her skin but that was the one thing she took time to get right.
Someone in here said that one of Obama's most defining characteristics is the color of his skin, not how big his ears are, not the mole on his face or even his unique speech pattern. Is the fact that Bill Clinton is white his most defining characteristic?
The problem with costumes like this is, they are reducing someone down to the most superficial aspect of that person. Just like minstrel shows used to do.
.
There is nothing in what she did that says the she think that being black was the defining human characteristic. She changed her style and her clothes along with darkening her skin. She is trying to look physically more like the character. It is a physical characteristic.
Yes an actor gets a pass because actors are not the characters they play.
People in most cases aren't the costumes they wear either. Klansman are definitely racist. They wouldn't wear the uniform of a Klansman if they weren't.
If I went as Fat Albert (And I could pull it off, trust me... I have the girth) and used make up to make my skin tone match Fat Albert's I'd be doing it purely for that purpose. I wouldn't be driven by racism in that effort, I'd be driven by trying to look like the character I was trying to dress up as for Halloween.
Does that make me racist? Does that make the act racist? Hell no.
So why not call black people niggers?
No one alive today had a history in the creation of the word and its use. So going by your logic you should be able to call us niggers right?
A better example would be someone appropriately using the word "niggardly" in a sentence. There's nothing inherently racist about that compared to any other word, offense would come from reminding people of racist usage by how it sounds rather than its actual meaning.
She clearly had no intention to demean or disrespect with her cosplay. She simply wanted to dress up as a character she liked, which in a vacuum would be no different from wearing a blonde wig to portray a blonde character. It can be offensive because of how it looks like other racist usage and can remind people of that.
There's nothing wrong with being offended by something like that, but I feel that intentions are certainly important. Ignorant and insensitive are far more accurate adjectives to describe her actions rather than racist and demeaning (and it should not all be piled together under Blackface).
samus i am
Member
How on earth could anyone think this was appropriate to wear? Absolute stupidity on her part.
Unfortunately, just read through the thread. There's a lot of people that seem to have no clue.
Does that make me racist? Does that make the act racist? Hell no.
Agreed. It's only racist if you do it to offend. You can feel proud you're only incredibly ignorant.
This is the kind of things I don't get about the US culture. How can it be offensive to anyone?
Because you can get alot of attention by being offended.
Being offended is big business in the U.S.
Agreed. It's only racist if you do it to offend. You can feel proud you're only incredibly ignorant.
Judge away, but I'm not ignorant. I just don't allow my descisions to ruled by the off-chance of offending over-sensitive and judgmental people.
I feel sick inside at this shit in this thread, and the others we have had the last few days. Shit is hopeless. Fuck this.
That drive-by bullshit doesn't help either.
You posted earlier 'THEN WHAT IS RACIST??' to which I replied many things, but not this, and explained why.
Then nothing.
Metalmurphy
Member
If I cosplay as Merry Poppins with lipstick and fake breasts, am I being offensive?
I must know GAF!
I must know GAF!
If I cosplay as Merry Poppins with lipstick and fake breasts, am I being offensive?
I must know GAF!
Yes you are because you're characterizing people based on their breast, lip sticks, and clothes. All you need to do is dress in your own clothes and say you're mary poppins, but without the accent, because that is also offensive.
Count Dookkake
Member
If I cosplay as Merry Poppins with lipstick and fake breasts, am I being offensive?
I must know GAF!
Don't you dare put on an accent!
If I cosplay as Merry Poppins with lipstick and fake breasts, am I being offensive?
I must know GAF!
Oh please don't depict a key visual distinction of Mary Poppins, that's just wrong!
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