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[ryutaro's mama]

There are many who are claiming just that. If she is doing blackface (which I still maintain it is not) then by definition the action was racist.

Wat?

She painted her face to resemble a Black person. Don't bother linking me the Webster's definition. I have read it here ad nausem. I don't see the dictionary as a blanket catch all for all things to do with Black face. Just my opinion.

The point is, she made (in my opinion) a not so sensitive decision to paint her face. There is a long, horrible history (regardless of whether any of us lived through it or not) of such behavior. Some would like to just tell people to relax and to the people that do it, it's cute and whatevers.

For those effected, it's not.

I always point to all the "Indian" teams in America. Chants, racist images like the Cleveland Indians logo...people tell Native Americans the same thing...relax guys, you're being too sensitive. Well, I can't tell them that, seeing 500 nations of Indians were wiped out and now imagery connected to their heritage is presented for folly.

This seems like a dangerous viewpoint. If you feel like you can't even participate in such a discussion that's your problem and not reality.

I should clarify. I don't mean you can't speak on these issues. You can't tell someone affected how they should feel.

 

[Maxim726X]

Last I checked, black people exist in real life. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Okay? Same point. Both are dressing as fictional characters (including white fictional characters), but if this fictional character happens to be black it isn't permissible?

 

[Byakuya769]

I'm guessing they've never met either one in real life.

Hahaha, oh shit.

 

[pizza dog]

Rembert @ Grantland weighs in: http://www.grantland.com/blog/holly...e-person-on-halloween-hint-skip-the-blackface

Chances are, if someone tells you they were hurt by Julianne Hough's Halloween outfit, they are exaggerating. But what is felt is merely a continuation of a long-held face-in-palm reaction, less "how dare they" and more "they'll never learn." "They" being white people, you see.

But is it fair for Julianne to receive such a swift, damning judgment of her costume choice? Who cares? Is it fair that white people get to be white? No. Similarly, is it fair that I get to be black and white people don't? Also no. Nothing's fair.

...

So, white person, I'm not saying that you can't be a black person for Halloween. But why not just be a white person? That's what I do with black people, which is why my Halloween greatest-hits lineup (Cliff Huxtable, Diddy, Frederick Douglass, and Prince) has been so successful.

 

[Byakuya769]

That looks like a dumb ass post. Why not just be a fucking character?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

That looks like a dumb ass post. Why not just be a fucking character?

Yeah man.

Sailor Moon girl had the right idea--just dress as the character you like.

 

[Riposte]

instead of this kid:

The first costume is so bad it makes blackface look good.

 

[Maxim726X]

Wat?

She painted her face to resemble a Black person. Don't bother linking me the Webster's definition. I have read it here ad nausem. I don't see the dictionary as a blanket catch all for all things to do with Black face. Just my opinion.

The point is, she made (in my opinion) a not so sensitive decision to paint her face. There is a long, horrible history (regardless of whether any of us lived through it or not) of such behavior. Some would like to just tell people to relax and to the people that do it, it's cute and whatevers.

For those effected, it's not.

I always point to all the "Indian" teams in America. Chants, racist images like the Cleveland Indians logo...people tell Native Americans the same thing...relax guys, you're being too sensitive. Well, I can't tell them that, seeing 500 nations of Indians were wiped out and now imagery connected to their heritage is presented for folly.

I mean, you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You're presented with the definition of something and choose to disagree with it stating you believe it's something different?

You can't just ignore the parts of something that you don't agree with... That's kinda not how it works. Blackface is more than just painting a face, and I think you know that.

 

[Mr. Patch]

Okay? Same point. Both are dressing as fictional characters (including white fictional characters), but if this fictional character happens to be black it isn't permissible?

It isn't. Because, you see... black people actually exist.

 

[royalan]

the colouring of the skin was part of it. nobody is calling her an out-and-out racist like minstrel shows of the past. but i am uncomfortable and offended by anyone turning my race into part of their costume. it's unnecessary, it has too much baggage and it's trivializing. you can't put on or remove blackness. its as simple as that.

everyone in this thread saying it's okay. it's not. race is not a costume.

I think this is the difference in interpretations. I don't see "my" face in Julianne's costume. I see the face of a popular character on a popular television show. There isn't a bigger statement about black people being made here. And sometimes that context is important. There isn't bigger commentary on black people in Julianne's costume, and it's that social commentary that made blackface as offensive as it was.

It wasn't the coloring of the skin (although, the intentionally crass way this was sometimes achieved was a bit offensive). It was the fact that performers, usually comedians, would paint themselves black and proceed to act out every black stereotype for comedic effect. Idiotic, stupid, child-like, recklessly sexual. It was this negative (and largely untrue, but that should go without saying) commentary on African Americans that made blackface offensive. Not the coloring of the face. That context is important, and it's missing in Julianne's costume.

Hell, the face paint is almost completely negligble when it comes to the negativity spurned on by blackface, and I can think of no better modern example than Lisa Lampanelli:

If you don't know who she is, she's a popular comedian whose live show is near-entirely based on exaggerating and making jokes of negative stereotypes specifically about minorities. Obviously, coming from the perspective of a middle-aged white woman, this is incredibly offensive. And yet she gets more popular by the year.

If you were to ask me, I'd say Lisa Lampanelli is the biggest minstrel act on the planet. Every bit as offensive as a blackface performer. But she barely gets criticized, and why? Because she doesn't paint her face? Is that really what it takes?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I mean, you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You're presented with the definition of something and choose to disagree with it stating you believe it's something different?

You can't just ignore the parts of something that you don't agree with... That's kinda not how it works. Blackface is more than just painting a face, and I think you know that.

Because the dictionary isn't a catch all.

It's not about ignoring anything. There are several slurs and whatnot that aren't called out in the dictionary as the definition.

GTFO with all that, seriously.

She painted her face black, resulting in a...wait for it...Black face. Literally.

 

[Maxim726X]

Because the dictionary isn't a catch all.

It's not about ignoring anything. There are several slurs and whatnot that aren't called out in the dictionary as the definition.

GTFO with all that, seriously.

She painted her face black, resulting in a...wait for it...Black face. Literally.

Holy shit, that's so absurdly inaccurate it hurts. You're fucking wrong, but whatever. Have fun with that.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Holy shit, that's so absurdly inaccurate it hurts. You're fucking wrong, but whatever. Have fun with that.

Did she paint her face to look like a Black person? Y/N

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Give it up Ryu. Maxim believes context ends at "she was at a halloween party".

 

[Kettch]

Because even innocent things can still be racist. If someone came up to me acted surprised and said you speak very well; that's an innocent comment but in the end it's fucking racist and offensive. I'm black by the way.

How is that an innocent comment though? The implications are clearly racist, that a race of people don't have the common ability to speak well. That's different from the OP here where there's nothing racist about the action itself, only that it's reminiscent of other actual racist actions.

It would be like someone seriously commenting that you're a linguistic master, a feat that actually is rare and would naturally cause surprise. That could remind you of people saying you speak well, and you could take offense at the comment because of that. That person could be guilty of being insensitive by making a similar comment or ignorant by not knowing that happens, but it wouldn't be racist.

I also disagree with the guy you responded to. It's ok to take offense at something that's innocent. And if it's something as trivial as making your Halloween costume slightly more accurate, most decent people would apologize and not do it again. Other people would be assholes, but still not racist.

 

[Maxim726X]

Did she paint her face to look like a Black person? Y/N

Is that fucking blackface, according to the definition of blackface? Y/N

Before you reply with some 'it's my opinion that it's more than that' bullshit, let's actually use what it is in the real world.

 

[Haint]

Wow look at that he dressed as a black charcter without the need for painting his skin, interesting

I'm not sure if you're joking/sarcastic or not, but that guy has approximately the same complexion as Mr. Jones.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Give it up Ryu. Maxim believes context ends at "she was at a halloween party".

Something something dictionary definitions something.

 

[Maxim726X]

Give it up Ryu. Maxim believes context ends at "she was at a halloween party".

Nah. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that blackface is utilized by definition to denigrate an entire race of people by purposely utilizing stereotypes and characteristics to intentionally offend and ridicule.

But let's ignore that entire aspect of it... You know, the whole point of blackface.

I also enjoy reading responses that try to argue this. They usually go something like this:

'Something something dictionary definitions something.' There's a strong argument if I've ever heard one.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I'm not sure if you're joking/sarcastic or not, but that guy has approximately the same complexion as Mr. Jones.

You may need to check your monitor calibration. They're nowhere near the same skin tone even with JEJ's make up and the movie lighting washing him out.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Is that fucking blackface, according to the definition of blackface? Y/N

Before you reply with some 'it's my opinion that it's more than that' bullshit, let's actually use what it is in the real world.

Not just my opinion, pal.

Read the thread.

I suppose all those people live in the "fake world" and Maxim lives in the real one with his one size fits all dictionary meanings.

 

[pizza dog]

If you were to ask me, I'd say Lisa Lampanelli is the biggest minstrel act on the planet. Every bit as offensive as a blackface performer. But she barely gets criticized, and why? Because she doesn't paint her face? Is that really what it takes?

This is a bit of a tough claim. I don't think you'd have a hard time finding people who think Lampanelli is fucking gross.

 

[Stet]

Nah. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that blackface is utilized by definition to denigrate an entire race of people by purposely utilizing stereotypes and characteristics to intentionally offend and ridicule.

But let's ignore that entire aspect of it... You know, the whole point of blackface.

Julianne Hough is really not doing the point of blackface justice here, guys.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

OK MAXIM

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blackface?s=t

blackface (ˈblækˌfeɪs)

— n
1. a. a performer made up to imitate a Black person
b. the make-up used by such a performer, usually consisting of burnt cork
2. a breed of sheep having a dark face

GTFOOH

 

[Byakuya769]

Julianne Hough is really not doing the point of blackface justice here, guys.

Monitor covered in water. Nice job, jerk.

 

[Supermanisdead]

I think this is the difference in interpretations. I don't see "my" face in Julianne's costume. I see the face of a popular character on a popular television show. There isn't a bigger statement about black people being made here. And sometimes that context is important. There isn't bigger commentary on black people in Julianne's costume, and it's that social commentary that made blackface as offensive as it was.

The character on the popular TV show has a laundry list of defining features. Just google her and you will see. The hair, the mannerisms, the facial expressions. Someone who doesn't even watch the show would be able to do justice to the character without the face paint. It's incredibly telling that she got the colour of the jumpsuit wrong and yet she still felt the need to "go the distance" and "really take on the character" by painting her skin black. She, like so many others, immediately go "black skin - that's it." Not only is it lazy, but it's clearly obvious that the face paint delves into a certain mindset of; "haha, look I'm black tonight. Aren't I so crazy"

I can't change your interpretation of it. It's a single instance and not a very important one in the long run, but the outright hostility in it's defense is systematic of the general ignorance and casual racism of the internet as a whole. People were offended, she apologized, and yet there is a stream of - no offense - straight white men telling me, yet again, not to be offended and that she shouldn't have to apologize.

It wasn't the coloring of the skin (although, the intentionally crass way this was sometimes achieved was a bit offensive). It was the fact that performers, usually comedians, would paint themselves black and proceed to act out every black stereotype for comedic effect. Idiotic, stupid, child-like, recklessly sexual. It was this negative (and largely untrue, but that should go without saying) commentary on African Americans that made blackface offensive. Not the coloring of the face. That context is important, and it's missing in Julianne's costume.

The context and the general well-meaning ignorance is what makes Hough's costume insensitive instead of outright racist. She clearly didn't mean to lampoon or offend, but she did and she apologized. No biggie.

What's offensive is what I said above. The seemingly outright denial that anything in 2013 can be offensive and that minorities should "get over it"

Hell, the face paint is almost completely negligble when it comes to the negativity spurned on by blackface, and I can think of no better modern example than Lisa Lampanelli:

If you don't know who she is, she's a popular comedian whose live show is near-entirely based on exaggerating and making jokes of negative stereotypes specifically about minorities. Obviously, coming from the perspective of a middle-aged white woman, this is incredibly offensive. And yet she gets more popular by the year.

If you were to ask me, I'd say Lisa Lampanelli is the biggest minstrel act on the planet. Every bit as offensive as a blackface performer. But she barely gets criticized, and why? Because she doesn't paint her face? Is that really what it takes?

I'm not familiar with her, but I do find this kind of "x people do this, y people do this" kind of comedy incredibly lazy and overdone and promotes a lot of drunken college racism.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

OK MAXIM

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blackface?s=t



GTFOOH

Julianne did not go as a breed of sheep, get over it everyone.

 

[Maxim726X]

OK MAXIM

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blackface?s=t



GTFOOH

Cool, I can copy and paste from websites too:

Blackface is a form of theatrical makeup used in minstrel shows, and later vaudeville, in which performers create a stereotyped caricature of a black person. The practice gained popularity during the 19th century and contributed to the proliferation of stereotypes such as the "happy-go-lucky darky on the plantation" or the "dandified coon".[1] In 1848, blackface minstrel shows were an American national art of the time, translating formal art such as opera into popular terms for a general audience.[2] Early in the 20th century, blackface branched off from the minstrel show and became a form in its own right, until it ended in the United States with the U.S. Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s.[3]

PS- She isn't a 'performer' acting out a stereotyped black role. She is attempting to look like a character from a TV show who happens to be black, which is miles away from what blackface was.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Goalpost has been moved from Dictionary to Wiki. Kewl.

 

[Maxim726X]

Goalpost has been moved from Dictionary to Wiki. Kewl.

Whatever helps you understand, friend.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Goalpost has been moved from Dictionary to Wiki. Kewl.

EXACTLY.

Maxim brings up the Webster's definition, I post a definition.

Move goalposts.

You got beat up, bro. Take the L and move on.

No one is salty.

 

[Byakuya769]

EXACTLY.

Maxim brings up the Webster's definition, I post a definition.

Move goalposts.

You got beat up, bro. Take the L and move on.

No one is salty.

Umm, black people stay salty. Ya know, amirite?

 

[Maxim726X]

EXACTLY.

Maxim brings up the Webster's definition, I post a definition.

Move goalposts.

You got beat up, bro. Take the L and move on.

No one is salty.

Your definition doesn't even apply to her. She's not an actress, and she isn't playing out a role. Besides, why don't you actually post the complete definition?

Definition: The makeup used by a nonblack performer playing a black role. The role played is typically comedic or musical and usually is considered offensive.

'Moving goalposts' or 'being correct'? The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Byakuya769]

Your definition doesn't even apply to her. She's not an actress, and she isn't playing out a role. Besides, why don't you actually post the complete definition?

Definition: The makeup used by a nonblack performer playing a black role. The role played is typically comedic or musical and usually is considered offensive.

'Moving goalposts' or 'being correct'? The evidence speaks for itself.

So crazy eyes is not a comedic role, and people are not offended?

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Whatever helps you understand, friend.

What you need to understand is that it being a 'classic' and 'textbook' definition of blackface is besides the point. It's something you're needlessly rallying. It being or not being technically blackface is hardly the issue here.


You're making posts like you're the president, chairman and CEO of Blackface Incorporated, trying to make sure this cheap knock off doesn't pass as the genuine article. It's not a good look.

In short; get over it.

 

[Maxim726X]

What you need to understand is that it being a 'classic' and 'textbook' definition of blackface is besides the point. It's something you're needlessly rallying. It being or not being technically blackface is hardly the issue here.


You're making posts like you're the president, chairman and CEO of Blackface Incorporated, trying to make sure this cheap knock off doesn't pass as the genuine article. It's not a good look.

In short; get over it.

It is central to the issue. Blackface is inherently racist, therefore if she is engaging in blackface she was taking part in a knowingly racist activity. And people are upset because they are attaching emotions to this as if it were. Of course it matters.

So crazy eyes is not a comedic role, and people are not offended?

So she's playing a role of someone playing a role?

Is this Tropic Thunder?

No, she's not playing a role... It's a Halloween costume

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Your definition doesn't even apply to her. She's not an actress, and she isn't playing out a role. Besides, why don't you actually post the complete definition?

Definition: The makeup used by a nonblack performer playing a black role. The role played is typically comedic or musical and usually is considered offensive.

'Moving goalposts' or 'being correct'? The evidence speaks for itself.

Sir, you the guy who points to literal definitions as defense, should appreciate this.

blackface (ˈblækˌfeɪs)

— n
1. a. a performer made up to imitate a Black person
b. the make-up used by such a performer, usually consisting of burnt cork
2. a breed of sheep having a dark face

1) She is by very definition a performer (Actress, Singer, Dancer).

2) She is by very definition made up, imitating a Black person.

3) She is in Blackface by definition.

 

[Verano]

Some of you guys are pathetic...

Anyways, Im curious if there's any blackface equivalent for us mexicans...

 

[Jest Chillin]

Every major Dictionary now defines the word Literally with two completely conflicting definitions.

Seriously, let the Dictionary argument go.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

It is central to the issue. Blackface is inherently racist, therefore if she is engaging in blackface she was taking part in a knowingly racist activity. And people are upset because they are attaching emotions to this as if it were. Of course it matters.

It being blackface would be inherently racist but it needn't be blackface in order to offend people enough for them to feel it was racist and ignorant. Not that she's a cross burning, sheet wearing racist but rather a "I didn't know I couldn't do that" ignorant person who did something that could be viewed as racist.

So no, it being blackface or not is not really the issue at hand.

 

[Byakuya769]

So she's playing a role of someone playing a role?

Is this Tropic Thunder?

No, she's not playing a role... It's a Halloween costume

Oooooooooo, the real black facers were playing the part of actual black people and not fictional roles. I see.

 

[Maxim726X]

Sir, you the guy who points to literal definitions as defense, should appreciate this.



1) She is by very definition a performer (Actress, Singer, Dancer).

2) She is by very definition made up, imitating a Black person.

3) She is in Blackface by definition.

She was not performing. Irrelevant to this story. And no, the definition you just gave says that it is given to a performer who is made up specifically to imitate a black person. She is not a performer, thus the argument is moot.

 

[Maxim726X]

It being blackface would be inherently racist but it needn't be blackface in order to offend people enough for them to feel it was racist and ignorant. Not that she's a cross burning, sheeting wearing racist but rather a "I didn't know I couldn't do that" ignorant person who did something that could be viewed as racist.

So no, it being blackface or not is not really the issue at hand.

Maybe to you, but there have been many people here that said that they are offended because of the connection this had to blackface under different circumstances, and there is more than one poster who would argue that it is blackface and thus the outrage is justified. Yes, it could be viewed as racist but should it be?

Oooooooooo, the real black facers were playing the part of actual black people and not fictional roles. I see.

Yeah, playing a stereotyped caricature of a black person and playing someone from a TV show aren't really equivalent, are they?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

She was not performing. Irrelevant to this story. And no, the definition you just gave says that it is given to a performer who is made up specifically to imitate a black person. She is not a performer, thus the argument is moot.

Point out to me in that definition where it says any of what you are saying?

It literally simply says "a performer". It never specifies anything beyond that. It doesn't say a performer in a show, or minstrel. It says a "performer".

She is a performer. Let it go, bro. I'm using your literal logic like you wanted.

And don't imply. Let's stay in the real world, ok?

 

[Shamrock7r]

I think this is the difference in interpretations. I don't see "my" face in Julianne's costume. I see the face of a popular character on a popular television show. There isn't a bigger statement about black people being made here. And sometimes that context is important. There isn't bigger commentary on black people in Julianne's costume, and it's that social commentary that made blackface as offensive as it was.

It wasn't the coloring of the skin (although, the intentionally crass way this was sometimes achieved was a bit offensive). It was the fact that performers, usually comedians, would paint themselves black and proceed to act out every black stereotype for comedic effect. Idiotic, stupid, child-like, recklessly sexual. It was this negative (and largely untrue, but that should go without saying) commentary on African Americans that made blackface offensive. Not the coloring of the face. That context is important, and it's missing in Julianne's costume.

Hell, the face paint is almost completely negligble when it comes to the negativity spurned on by blackface, and I can think of no better modern example than Lisa Lampanelli:

If you don't know who she is, she's a popular comedian whose live show is near-entirely based on exaggerating and making jokes of negative stereotypes specifically about minorities. Obviously, coming from the perspective of a middle-aged white woman, this is incredibly offensive. And yet she gets more popular by the year.

If you were to ask me, I'd say Lisa Lampanelli is the biggest minstrel act on the planet. Every bit as offensive as a blackface performer. But she barely gets criticized, and why? Because she doesn't paint her face? Is that really what it takes?

Well said. At worst this is a learning opportunity for Hough, as any rational person could see what the intent was or wasn't. I know it's being mocked by some in here now for whatever reason, but context is key in this situation, and if we are going to evolve as a society to be more aware of sensitive subjects and how it affects people, we should also be able to be more aware of intent, and what is truly being presented. I can understand a person being sensitive to the darkening of the skin in this instance (never been comfortable with it myself). After learning the facts behind the photo however, I can't imagine how one could be outraged by it.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Maybe to you, but there have been many people here that said that they are offended because of the connection this had to blackface under different circumstances, and there is more than one poster who would argue that it is blackface and thus the outrage is justified. Yes, it could be viewed as racist but should it be?

That's because she's a red lip stick application away from it being blackface. That's precisely why her friends/family/manager/driver should have told her to get her dumbass back in the house and take off the bronzer. The slop she put herself on was slippery as hell, and your outrage shouldn't be pointed at the offended.

It's at the very least ignorant as hell, I'm not going to argue that it is or isn't racist cause really, the fact that it could so easily go either way is enough reason to call her out.

 

[Maxim726X]

That's because she's a red lip stick application away from it being blackface. That's precisely why her friends/family/manager/driver should have told her to get her dumbass back in the house and take off the bronzer. The slop she put herself on was slippery as hell, and your outrage shouldn't be pointed at the offended.

It's at the very least ignorant as hell, I'm not going to argue that it is or isn't racist cause really, the fact that it could so easily go either way is enough reason to call her out.

I would agree that it's ignorant, stupid, and insensitive. I'm sure she regrets it.

But throwing around the term 'blackface' brings with it a lot more than simply putting on makeup. I know that everyone in this thread knows that, but it's still being applied. That's not really genuine.

 

[Byakuya769]

Yeah, playing a stereotyped caricature of a black person and playing someone from a TV show aren't really equivalent, are they?

When both of those phrases described the same character, ummm.. yeah.

 

[The Adder]

How does the anti-paint team feel about this?

What if a white person dresses as a Drow Elf? They have dark colored skin. Is it considered offensive then?

To quote myself:

I'm sorry, are you equating a character's race to the [color] of a character who is very specifically not human and whose strange tone is one of the many ways that's demonstrated?

And you don't see something wrong here?

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

It not being exactly blackface is not nearly the most important point of discussion here. I know you know that.