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[Stoney Mason]

It probably still wouldn't. As well as if mods/maps support wasn't even there at all...

The two sides are arguing at cross points. One said is saying you should be happy at all to even be receiving any sort of content or support in this form.

The other side is saying they are happy but the method is awful and not console friendly at all nor nearly as useful for the mass of consumers as it could be.

Both sides have a point although I would fall into the latter group whether this was 360 or PS3.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

I think this is more a case of Tycho feeling like he needs to take a stab at Mark since he took some shots at Xbox live and their buds at MS.

 

[tak]

Wow, Tycho...an executive CCing an email. Imagine that. What a shocker.

We're not really sure what happen with the CCing, but CCing without permission is an crappy move when anyone does it.

 

[Stoney Mason]

The tone of Tycho's rant is overly aggressive and kind of annoying, to be honest. Rein's game shipped a little early, I guess.

How is it overly aggressive and how is it any different than what they usually post there or the content of their comics?

 

[Kuran]

Why is everybody hating on Epic for delivering what no other console developer has really done before? Sure its not perfect, but at least they didn't just dismiss user-made content for the PS3 version.. thats something to admire.

 

[MoxManiac]

1. Testing new cool map.

2. Going to NeoGAF online forum and talk about it, look for a group that want to check it out and meet for some games.

3. Profit (and probably a more enjoyable experience).

Ok, is not designed for dumbs but I fail to see this as some type of huge obstacle, but we certainly are not agree on this point.

Doable and fun, but way too much work and effort to do every time I want to play a mod.

 

[LukeSmith]

This article would never have been made if the console version debuted on the X360.

And then we wouldn't have this amazing thread! That would have been tragic.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Epic, among hundreds of other developers, releases a half-finished feature of a game to market in order to meet a holiday deadline and pennyarcade chews them up for it. I think Tycho is just being a dick. Seriously, you can only blame the internet for the 'we'll fix it after launch' mentality.

Except they didn't.

The PS3 game is complete. Nothing is missing. They always said you'd need a PC to get the mod from. They said they were looking to ways to eliminate that step for the future but they never stated it was going to happen at launch. In fact they specifically said it wouldn't be there.

The only thing that was missing was the PC editor that didn't have the "Export to PS3" feature. But that has nothing to do with the PS3 game you buy.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I love Penny Arcade, but Tycho sounds like a whiny bitch in his response to Rein. Its way too over the top considering the issue they're discussing.

 

[Anth]

How is it overly aggressive and how is it any different than what they usually post there or the content of their comics?

The whole "OMG, people have to have some sort of storage device!" thing is somewhat overblown. The delivery method does suck, yes, but that's not nearly the most important reason.

 

[tak]

Doable and fun, but way too much work and effort to do every time I want to play a mod.

You have to do that with Forge in Halo 3. It is doable, but it requires to much work and it is very hard to form large custom games when you want to play.

 

[Y2Kev]

How is it overly aggressive and how is it any different than what they usually post there or the content of their comics?

The tone of his posts is aggressive in that he's taking what Rein says (not to mention what we all know about how the game basically just made it out in 2007 by the skin of its teeth) and freaking out about it. Seriously, Zeus withholding fire? Is this an appropriate comparison?

Besides, I'm not sure what he means about hacked iPods. And I seriously don't know anyone who doesn't own some type of portable USB flash memory, but that's anecdotal.

I think, ultimately, if the game had been delayed two months, this could have been sorted out. Which would you rather, and if it is what happened, is it worth this kind of reaction?

 

[kaching]

True. That does not mean you cut them slack. Being vocal and demanding is how you make large, fat, greedy companies improve.

That would be all well and good if the companies in question hadn't already taken it upon themselves to improve the situation.

 

[Stoney Mason]

The whole "OMG, people have to have some sort of storage device!" thing with somewhat overblown. The delivery method does suck, yes, but that's not the most important reason.

I think the way some (not all) people react shows more their own preconceived battles they brought into the fight rather than a real reaction to what he said.

 

[NeonBlade]

Mark is a fool for even responding to Penny Arcade? Who or what the fuck is Penny Arcade, nothing, no one. They make shit comics and create rifts in the community by skewing opinions on games before anyone has played them and cunts actutally listen.

 

[Slavik81]

From his hacked iPod, you mean. Remember: if you want to use mods on your PS3, it's easy! Just install Linux on your music player.

...WTF?

 

[tak]

Mark is a fool for even responding to Penny Arcade? Who or what the fuck is Penny Arcade, nothing, no one. They make shit comics and create rifts in the community by skewing opinions on games before anyone has played them and cunts actutally listen.

Thanks for reminding my why I come to this board. The entertainment value is priceless.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Must....Defend...at..all...costs.....

I will fight.....to the death...

 

[Zombie James]

...WTF?

Tycho doesn't RTFM and know that you can use an iPod as a storage device.

 

[rollingstart]

Tycho doesn't RTFM and know that you can use an iPod as a storage device.

or he has an ipod touch, which cant be used as a storage device.

either way, awful and terrible point to bring up.

 

[Metalmurphy]

I don't think Tycho even understands the Mod scene at all...

Here's a hint Tycho: Forge has got nothing to do with it. AT ALL.

 

[ElyrionX]

Mark is a fool for even responding to Penny Arcade? Who or what the fuck is Penny Arcade, nothing, no one. They make shit comics and create rifts in the community by skewing opinions on games before anyone has played them and cunts actutally listen.

While I disagree, your points about PA comics being "shit" and the opinion skewing part and "cunts" listening part are all defensible. But claiming that Penny Arcade is "nothing" or "no one" is just stupid because if anything, PA definitely has influence in the gaming industry.

 

[rollingstart]

I don't think Tycho even understands the Mod scene at all...

Here's a hint Tycho: Forge has got nothing to do with it. AT ALL.

anyone who brings up either forge or far cry saying they are the same as any PC mod/map scene is simply ignorant or uninformed.

 

[Anth]

Thinking about it, there are two issues at work here.

1. The PC version of UT3 is missing a feature, which also affects the PS3 version.

2. The delivery method for mods doesn't measure up to the hype.


Epic is clearly to blame on the first issue, but it is common practice in the industry, so with some apologies and an effort to improve the situation right now, until the feature is ready, it is acceptable.

The second issue is a lot harder to assess. Did Epic hype the feature? If so, then they are to blame and deserve all the flak they get. Or did fans (especially desperate PS3 fans) just run with it and hype it way above the adverts? If so, then the fans, the forums, and ultimatively the community itself is at fault.
Which one is it? I don't know.

 

[Zombie James]

or he has an ipod touch, which cant be used as a storage device.

No, he doesn't, or else he wouldn't have mentioned Linux (not an option on the Touch).

 

[Virtua Ben]

I like PA, but this is kind of ridiculous. Tycho is making a huge deal out of a little awkward way of getting mods onto the ps3. It would be much more convenient to just download it using the ps3 browser, but we can't do that for some reason or another. Tycho should have just stopped trying to be so aggressive and just asked civially (even though Mark Rein probably deserves because he bragged about his game so much). Sometimes the PA guys need to stop acting like self-proclaimed saviors of gaming.

 

[Baryn]

1) The game should have been finished when it released.
2) The game is all I should have to buy.

Leave the flaws of PC gaming out of consoles Epic! Anyone calling Tycho a bitch is a bitch.

 

[Stoney Mason]

anyone who brings up either forge or far cry saying they are the same as any PC mod/map scene is simply ignorant or uninformed.

I think the problem is that some far no one has come up with a good solution for true user created content being dispersed on a console in a user friendly manner and that includes Forge/Farcry and Unreal Tournament for the PS3.

 

[Borys]

It's the best pc to console port ever made. Having a download tool coupled with a web browser would be the ideal way to get content directly to the game but it's hardly a big problem as it is.

They should however have the different mod files named differently as only being able to transfer one file at a time is a pain.

Mutators is downloaded automatically when connecting to a server. Maps and full on mods aren't however.

PS3 Bake option is coming in a UE3 tool patch soon.

This article would never have been made if the console version debuted on the X360.

You are out of your mind.

 

[duk]

Will they fix this for the 360 release?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

We're not really sure what happen with the CCing, but CCing without permission is an crappy move when anyone does it.

Rein CCed HIS OWN RESPONSE to people he decided should see it. There's nothing even slightly wrong about doing that. If I write something, I can CC it to anyone I damn well please. Period.

There is also no argument to be made that this was somehow a private matter. After all, this is a response to a piece that was posted on a very public blog (read by thousands) that contained at least one outright lie that painted Rein's product in a bad light.

For Tycho to snipe at Rein for CCing his own email, is a ludicrous bitch move, especially when Tycho himself was going to basically CCs Rein's response to the whole world anyway.

All that snipe about the CC does is prove that Tycho isn't just criticising the product. No, that ridiculous barb shows that Tycho has a hard-on to make Rein look bad at any cost in this piece, even if it doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[Metalmurphy]

1) The game should have been finished when it released.

It is.

2) The game is all I should have to buy.

It is.

Leave the flaws of PC gaming out of consoles Epic! Anyone calling Tycho a bitch is a bitch.

And you're an idiot for bringing points 1 and 2.

Will they fix this for the 360 release?

The question should be: Will they even have mod support on the 360?

 

[Robert R1]

Thinking about it, there are two issues at work here.

1. The PC version of UT3 is missing a feature, which also affects the PS3 version.

2. The delivery method for mods doesn't measure up to the hype.


Epic is clearly to blame on the first issue, but it is common practice in the industry, so with some apologies and an effort to improve the situation right now, until the feature is ready, it is acceptable.

The second issue is a lot harder to assess. Did Epic hype the feature? If so, then they are to blame and deserve all the flak they get. Or did fans (especially desperate PS3 fans) just run with it and hype it way above the adverts? If so, then the fans, the forums, and ultimatively the community itself is at fault.
Which one is it? I don't know.

On your 2nd point, practical means of delivery is a must if you want such content to flourish. In the server browser list, if I see a map I don't have I should be able to download it simply by attempting to connect to a game. The moment I have to go hunting for this map, transfer to a mem stick, back to the PS3, install the map, play it, my excitement might not be there anymore. This is just talking about very popular maps. For maps I just want to try out for shit n' giggles, I'm more likely to skip due to the effort required.

Covenience is the name of the game when you're trying to push such tech. The overhead needed to play the mods will be a turn off to majority of the people.

 

[Zombie James]

Tycho is making a huge deal out of a little awkward way of getting mods onto the ps3. It would be much more convenient to just download it using the ps3 browser, but we can't do that for some reason or another.

"Who the hell wants to use a web browser with a controller?! Yea, you can use a mouse and keyboard... but only if you hack them!"

 

[theBishop]

Thinking about it, there are two issues at work here.

1. The PC version of UT3 is missing a feature, which also affects the PS3 version.

2. The delivery method for mods doesn't measure up to the hype.


Epic is clearly to blame on the first issue, but it is common practice in the industry, so with some apologies and an effort to improve the situation right now, until the feature is ready, it is acceptable.

The second issue is a lot harder to assess. Did Epic hype the feature? If so, then they are to blame and deserve all the flak they get. Or did fans (especially desperate PS3 fans) just run with it and hype it way above the adverts? If so, then the fans, the forums, and ultimatively the community itself is at fault.
Which one is it? I don't know.

#1: could be Epic's fault, could be Sony's fault, could be midways's fault, could be just something that was lower on priority in the push to get the PS3 version out in time for Christmas.

Either way, its not like there's an overwhelming amount of content now that PS3 users are getting screwed out of. PC modders have only had the tools a month. The PS3 tools will be available way before any must-have mod is released.

#2: The existing USB feature was the absolute necessity to ensure full freedom to users. Beyond that, Rein has suggested the PSN Store, in-game browser, and Home as possible delivery methods to make things easier in the future.

PS: nice "desperate PS3 fans" troll. This thread definitely needs more of that.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I don't think Tycho even understands the Mod scene at all...

Here's a hint Tycho: Forge has got nothing to do with it. AT ALL.

Are you implying Tycho is a Halo fanboy? Maybe you should become familiar with PA before throwing out ignorant accusations.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Beyond that, Rein has suggested the PSN Store, in-game browser, and Home as possible delivery methods to make things easier in the future.

Epic stands behind their products, I fully expect a faster solution in the future with no more than one or two steps and no sneakernet.

Ultimately the biggest issue with UT3 is the abysmal sales. Here's hoping it turns around or has really long legs at retail.

 

[Omar Ismail]

There are a couple of factors here.

1. Mainstream gamers really are stupid. If you have to explain anything, then it's already too complicated. Hell, just last night I was talking with some friends who are big 360/Live players and they had never downloaded a demo from Marketplace in their life. In fact they didn't even know the difference between Gamer Points and Microsoft Points. Things that are second nature to us were totally unknown to them, and it blew my mind. So to expect people like that to go through ANY kind of multi-step process is... well, it's just not going to happen.

2. Console mod support isn't about a few user made maps. Sure having some maps is cool, but the incremental benefit over the retail maps is marginal at best, especially when you consider the hassles it brings of propogation (what happens when only 25% of the community has the map, etc).

3. Console mod support is about the Total Conversions and ambitious mods like CounterStrike. THIS is what is exciting. THIS is what is finally possible for the first time in a console game. Somebody taking UT3 and making a crazy mod like CounterStrike that is essentially a brand new game. Console gamers will then get to play this game as well, for free. That is huge. And that takes time. You really won't see the benefits for a year or so which is how long it takes for some meaty mods to come out. And it's not about 50 mods. It's going to be one or two that are extremely popular. But that's all it takes for the feature to be worth it.

4. With the ultra-small PC community, will a a total conversion mod for UT3 ever come out? Or will it even come out in the next couple of years? If everybody is sticking with Source, and maybe leapfrogs to ID's next engine then you'll never get a critical mass that the modding community needs to create something special, in which case the potential of the promise never gets actualized.

The biggest problem with UT3 isn't the lacking cook tools, or the convoluted transfer process. It's the abysmal sales of the PC version. MAYBE a lot of people are pirating the game so they still have the tools available. But if the game has truly flopped then the likelihood you'll see some really cool mods is extremely low.

 

[tak]

Rein CCed HIS OWN RESPONSE to people he decided should see it. There's nothing even slightly wrong about doing that.

There is also no argument to be made that this was somehow a private matter, after all, this is a response to a piece that was posted on a very public blog (read by thousands) that contained at least one outright lie that painted Rein's product in a bad light.

For Tycho to snipe at Rein for CCing his own email, is a ludicrous bitch move.

ah, I remember wrong then. I read his post yesterday, and I thought Rein was responding to an email Tycho sent him, not a post on Penny Arcade website.

Basically, I thought Tycho first emailed Rein directly, and that Rein included the content of Tycho's email in his response and CCed to other people. That would have been a crappy move. Tycho would not be expecting his message to go to more then Rein in that case.

EDIT: Good god, you're updated post makes it sound like I killed a puppy. Internet, serious business.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Are you implying Tycho is a Halo fanboy? Maybe you should become familiar with PA before throwing out ignorant accusations.

Maybe you should make sure of what I'm "implying" before throwing out ignorant accusations.

I'm implying he's not familiar with PC games modding and that's he's just used to consoles.
Epic is bringing something from PC gaming to the PS3, and that's how it works, he shouldn't be complaining about it.

Mods can be made by ANYONE, they MOD whatever they want, and then host them wherever the hell they want, by the means THEY choose. There is NO WAY the process could be automated. Everything is working the way it should be and as it was advertised. Conclusion: Tycho should learn to stfu.


Oh and to the other guys... MOD scene isn't for casual gamers... And I don't think Epic is trying to make it so... :lol

 

[Stoney Mason]

Are you implying Tycho is a Halo fanboy? Maybe you should become familiar with PA before throwing out ignorant accusations.

I think he was more making the argument that some console users might equate user created mods as the equivalent of forge.


To be honest I always hoped Halo 3 would have a true map creator rather than map editor so a big time supported game would attempt to solve this issue. They didn't however and it seems Unreal Tournament hasn't cracked the nut either.

 

[CreatureX3]

mark rein overpromised and underdelivered!

just like he always does, I don't know why some people here are defending him.

QFT!

 

[Stoney Mason]

Oh and to the other guys... MOD scene isn't for casual gamers... And I don't think Epic is trying to make it so... :lol

While the mod scene per se isn't for casual users getting created content to console users will be a feature that one day extends beyond just a very very small niche. And it will need to be far more user friendly just like Live or the PSN network is. That is what people (At least I am) arguing. The PC model of doing things isn't going to be the proper method for consoles.

 

[Metalmurphy]

QFT!

QF Someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. I'll say this once more since everyone seems to be missing it.

MARK REIGN HAS ALWAYS SAID A PC WOULD BE NECESSARY TO DOWNLOAD THE MODS FROM!! IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO WORK OTHERWISE!!

Read my previous post if you don't understand why.

Hopefully ppl will get there now...

Spoiler

Who am I kiddin...

 

[Ploid 3.0]

What ps3 owner don't have a memory unit (usb, external hdd, sd, memory card, etc). These usb sticks cost less than ps2 memory cards costed, and hold hundreds-thousands of MB's. Also I'm sure majority of the UT3 PS3 owners that play this online also have at least a e-machine to download the free (well not free since you have to buy a $600 console, usb memory drive, UT3, TV, House, internet access, a pc, and you gotta burn energy to transfer files) content.

 

[FFChris]

Well that seemed unnecessarily bitchy. He probably could have got his point across much better without resorting to that.

Here's a question. Can you send the files needed to a PS3 via WiFi? If not, why not?

 

[rollingstart]

Well that seemed unnecessarily bitchy. He probably could have got his point across much better without resorting to that.

I think all the smarmy bitching is what got people to pick up pitch forks and stand firmly behind Tycho, if he wrote it straight up I think people would have read all the incorrect babel he was spewing.

 

[SexConker]

and that ipod comment is just being childish. If you can use a USB memory stick then thats fine, just leave it at that.

No, the iPod comment is retarded - can't you just put the thing into disk mode where it is seen as USB hard drive?

 

[Zombie James]

Here's a question. Can you send the files needed to a PS3 via WiFi? If not, why not?

I don't think it's possible to access the PS3's hard drive contents with a PC (it'd be nice if you could, though).

 

[spwolf]

On your 2nd point, practical means of delivery is a must if you want such content to flourish. In the server browser list, if I see a map I don't have I should be able to download it simply by attempting to connect to a game. The moment I have to go hunting for this map, transfer to a mem stick, back to the PS3, install the map, play it, my excitement might not be there anymore. This is just talking about very popular maps. For maps I just want to try out for shit n' giggles, I'm more likely to skip due to the effort required.

Covenience is the name of the game when you're trying to push such tech. The overhead needed to play the mods will be a turn off to majority of the people.

hm, in most cases, relying to server to send you an map nevere worked well - it was always shit slow not to hamper server - from Q3, to RTCW to UT to BF. You always had to go and download it from mod sites, extract it to appropriate folder and then you got it.