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[Emerson]

We have no idea what was going on in that classroom so I'm unsure why everybody seems to have such a strong opinion about it. Maybe there's just three shitty entitled white kids. Or maybe there's a professor who has a particular bug up her ass about societal racism and consistently inserted into lectures it wasn't relevant to. If my physiology professor constantly ranted about racism I'd be annoyed too. Legitimate issue, not the time to talk about it. Maybe.

I find both possibilities equally likely. And frankly based on the one quote from the school's reprimand saying she was singling out particular students almost as if she was accusing them, I'm slightly leaning towards the complaints being justified.

 

[Toxi]

We have no idea what was going on in that classroom so I'm unsure why everybody seems to have such a strong opinion about it. Maybe there's just three shitty entitled white kids. Or maybe there's a professor who has a particular bug up her ass about societal racism and consistently inserted into lectures it wasn't relevant to.

I find both possibilities equally likely. And frankly based on the one quote from the school's reprimand saying she was singling out particular students almost as if she was accusing them, I'm slightly leaning towards the complaints being justified.

I like how you try to go for the "We shouldn't make judgements about either side, let's be above it all" track before making a judgement about one of the sides.

 

[genjiZERO]

Following this logic, then being proud to be black is questionable too?

I actually think it is. I think it's problematic to be proud of a race for the sake of that race. Because race is nothing more than a modern sociological construct builr upon external physical differences between people. So why would you feel "pride" over a physical attribute?

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with showing pride in a culture (as long as it's not jingoistic or xenophobic). So having pride in African-American culture or English-American or Italian-American or whatever is perfectly fine. But the difference is that one is focused on the phenotype (bad) and the other on shared customs/experiences of a group of people (good).

 

[Portugeezer]

You don't think that white people should own up to their generally higher position in American society? Seriously?

In general yes, and I would say most people accept that as the truth.

It's not the same for everyone though, and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to downplay the achievements of a white person or accentuate any black achievement. Each person may have their own story but we shouldn't generalise them by default.

White people who aren't successful just have to deal with it, black people who aren't successful can point the finger at institutional racism.

 

[Emerson]

I like how you try to go for the "We shouldn't make judgements about either side, let's be above it all" track before making a judgement about one of the sides.

I like how you completely ignore the general message of a post and nitpick a single point to make an internet victory.

 

[Effect]

Even if that's the case, as I mentioned in the next post the school did give outright warnings that the material was up to the instructor's discretion and teaching style. It sounds like the school might be too liberal in how they allow their teachers to approach the course material.

This has been the case in all classes I've taken. Class would be boring if it wasn't tailored with the instructors teaching style and interest. You know right away, at least after the first two classes, if that style is going to be okay with you. I've never had a teacher hide it and then suddenly spring it on us.

Did the articles say if other students were interviewed or if the word of these students were taken without any follow up. It's sounding to me that they were simply made uncomfortable about the subject matter and examples (based in fact) that were presented to the class, internalized it as if they were being attacked and in their mind tried to fight back. I've been in classes with people like this that get defensive when historical examples are used when they shouldn't be because no one is attacking them personally. That can't accept just how horrible certain things in the past where and how horrible things are done in the present. I'm really doubtful that they were singled out to be attacked. If that were the case why haven't more people come forward to back that claim or there been any issues before.

Also when people say "we talk about it every class" I'm more likely to see that as exaggeration.

 

[TS-08]

This has been the case in all classes I've taken. Class would be boring if it wasn't tailored with the instructors teaching style and interest. You know right away, at least after the first two classes, if that style is going to be okay with you. I've never had a teacher hide it and then suddenly spring it on us.

Did the articles say if other students were interviewed or if the word of these students were taken without any follow up. It's sounding to me that they were simply made uncomfortable about the subject matter and the facts presented to them, internalized it as if they were being attacked and in their mind tried to fight back. I'm really doubtful that they were singled out to be attacked. If that were the case why haven't more people come forward to back that claim or there been any issues before.

Also when people say "we talk about it every class" I'm more likely to see that as exaggeration.

There was a past incident in 2009. The story is linked throughout the thread.

 

[Toxi]

I like how you completely ignore the general message of a post and nitpick a single point to make an internet victory.

The general message of your post is meaningless when you contradict it at the end.

Either don't make judgements or make them. If you think the professor is at fault, that's fine, but just say that instead of moralizing about how we can't make judgements with the information we have.

 

[Air]

I've sat here for the better part of 5 minutes thinking about what to say about threads like these, and the only word I can come up with is "disappointment".

I actually think it is. I think it's problematic to be proud of a race for the sake of that race. Because race is nothing more than a modern sociological construct builr upon external physical differences between people. So why would you feel "pride" over a physical attribute?

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with showing pride in a culture (as long as it's not jingoistic or xenophobic). So having pride in African-American culture or English-American or Italian-American or whatever is perfectly fine. But the difference is that one is focused on the phenotype (bad) and the other on shared customs/experiences of a group of people (good).

I think in the context of when minorities do it, as other posters have said, it's about being ok with who you are. In fact, substitute pride for "being ok with being black parade" or "being ok with being gay parade". But, in a not so ironic fashion, it sounds a little... Misused when you translate to "being ok with being a straight white male parade".

 

[grumble]

white people are the villains?
what in all the motherfucking fuck allows for such a blatantly racist statement to be tolerated here?

but ok, i'm gonna withhold from hurling insults and will instead challenge you to find a culture anywhere in the history of mankind where outsiders were held in equally high regard as members of the culture, the powerful did not oppress the less powerful and violence was not widespread. I would love to see that.

Seriously. I find this forum to be very racist at times.

 

[SmokyDave]

The general message of your post is meaningless when you contradict it at the end.

Either don't make judgements or make them. If you think the professor is at fault, that's fine, but just say that instead of moralizing about how we can't make judgements with the information we have.

I think you missed the 'strong opinions' part of Emerson's post.

 

[Emerson]

I think you missed the 'strong opinions' part of Emerson's post.

Honestly. Zero reading comprehension on this board sometimes.

The entire point of my post was to show a stream of thought and rationale. I don't understand why people in this thread seem to think they have all the answers and no question at all about what happened.

My post, on the other hand, offered both possibilities, but at the end mentioned that one small piece of evidence led me to lean slightly in one direction. It was in no way definitive and in no way contradictory to my first thoughts.

 

[Sethista]

I'm white and proud of it, or is that wrong?

As most things, it depends. What part of being white are you proud of?

If it is because you feel like whites are the chosen people and only whites can prosper, then yeah, that's wrong.

If it is for the community you live in , and the efforts you make to improve your own station and help others, then that is ok.

The problem is always if you boil it down to a black and white issue (pun intended) and ignore the grey.

 

[sixteen-bit]

#whenracismended

 

[Aylinato]

Following this logic, then being proud to be black is questionable too?

People should strive to be proud of things that positively create an equal society that we can live in. Where no woman, man, or child goes starving because we have obliterated food scarcity because we can, where no one ins homeless because we take care of our fellow humans, where we cure easily treatable diseases, and where we ensure everyone has the right to education.

 

[Shiggie]

This discussion reminds me of a recent This American Life.
Episode 512 House Rules. It talks about redlining.

Redlining is the practice of denying, or charging more for, services such as banking, insurance,[2] access to health care,[3] or even supermarkets,[4] or denying jobs to residents in particular, often racially determined,[5] areas.

and its effect today as well.

Its been addressed that its a problem in the 60's and Only George Romney was willing to rectify the systemic problems of it. Nixon, on the other hand Believed it was wrong but to do anything to solve the problem was wrong.

And he believed that he was taking the more practical, moderate view, which is, of course legal segregation is wrong, and it's a good thing that we have gotten rid of that, but it's also wrong to disrupt people, to force upon people something that they don't want.

This is the thing when some white people bring up racism, they know its wrong but doing anything to solve the problem of it is also seen a wrong too. I get it but its boggels the mind too.

Its like after the slaves were freed. Sure they had freedom but they had no skills, education, land, etc. but were somehow expected to just move on.
Only apologizing after a mistake isnt enough if you have the ability to rectify it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/house-rules
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/transcript

 

[NH Apache]

Intro to Mass Comm is supposed to teach students the basics of writing for different purposes (Newspaper, internet, media release...).

Using a historical basis for these subjects can give perspective, but if race relations was a constant theme throughout the semester, I feel like the prof really shorted the students. Not to diminish the absolute truth that students can be dicks sometimes, but that Professor couldn't even back up her reasoning why she is including certain subjects in her lectures and reverted to telling the students to talk to legal services? Sounds like a bad prof.

 

[Schattenjäger]

We have no idea what was going on in that classroom so I'm unsure why everybody seems to have such a strong opinion about it. Maybe there's just three shitty entitled white kids. Or maybe there's a professor who has a particular bug up her ass about societal racism and consistently inserted into lectures it wasn't relevant to. If my physiology professor constantly ranted about racism I'd be annoyed too. Legitimate issue, not the time to talk about it. Maybe.

I find both possibilities equally likely. And frankly based on the one quote from the school's reprimand saying she was singling out particular students almost as if she was accusing them, I'm slightly leaning towards the complaints being justified.

Thank you for making the most sense here

 

[Simplet]

Surprising how this thread turned into a trainwreck...

Did someone seriously just post "White people are the villains"?

 

[entremet]

Really hard to make a judgment without first hand knowledge of what went on.

 

[Vilix]

Maybe you should read my post again for perspective. But towards your question.

In many cases in History, when the Europeans landed, They were treated with kind, brought gifts, treated as deities etc etc.
Only for them to Rape, pillage and plunder the hell out of almost every society they touched.

Good times.

 

[Valhelm]

In general yes, and I would say most people accept that as the truth.

It's not the same for everyone though, and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to downplay the achievements of a white person or accentuate any black achievement. Each person may have their own story but we shouldn't generalise them by default.

White people who aren't successful just have to deal with it, black people who aren't successful can point the finger at institutional racism.

White people who aren't successful have less obstacles to achieve success than black people, though.

 

[Seanspeed]

Er because history has shown that white men were the villain and still are, especially in the police force?

This just makes it sound like white men are inherently more evil/racist/whatever than other races, which is exactly how white people are often made out to be and how a lot of white people are treated when it comes to the subject of racism.

Truth is, its the 'majority vs minority' aspect that causes this. Most prejudicial struggles throughout history proves this over and over again, whether its an issue of race, religion, nationality or whatever(sex is a little different and has other roots).

Flip situations around and things would likely be just as problematic. If you believe in proper human equality, you should also believe that any race is equally capable of being prejudiced towards other races. We, as humans, are quite naturally inclined towards prejudicial thinking by necessity, after all. I think labelling any hugely wide group of people as 'villains' just because there is a small percentage of that population that harbors racist beliefs is quite unfair and is technically racist in and of itself.

 

[teh_rhn]

You don't think that white people should own up to their generally higher position in American society? Seriously?

so white people should just give their money away to minorities?

Edit: i'm not trying to mock anyone or w/e, just don't understand by what 'own up' is supposed to mean by your standards

I mean, i'm pretty sure most of the sensible ones aren't going YAY RACISM! WE ENSLAVED THE MOST RACES! MAX SCORE or anything like that

 

[TheRagnCajun]

You don't think that white people should own up to their generally higher position in American society? Seriously?

I'm not sure what that looks like. You want white people to apologize for statistics, regardless of what their personal situation may be? Not putting words in your mouth, I just don't understand.

 

[Kinitari]

You don't think that white people should own up to their generally higher position in American society? Seriously?

I don't think that white people should feel guilty about anything, at the very least. What does "owning up" mean specifically?

 

[Septy]

Maybe you should read my post again for perspective. But towards your question.

In many cases in History, when the Europeans landed, They were treated with kind, brought gifts, treated as deities etc etc.
Only for them to Rape, pillage and plunder the hell out of almost every society they touched.

The Europeans being greeted as gods is pretty much apocryphal.

 

[Mael]

White people who aren't successful just have to deal with it, black people who aren't successful can point the finger at institutional racism.

Black people can point to how unfair the system is and then....nothing.
It doesn't magically makes their life better.

 

[Aristion]

Yes, in quite a few countries. The world does not revolve around NA.

The world revolves around NA, SA and Europe.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

If her entire syllabus revolves around explaining structural racism, then she's a bad teacher and has no place in academia. Without more information I can't make that call, however the way in which the students aired their complaints was disruptive and needlessly confrontational either way. They should have let her give her lecture then made a complaint to the board, because even if they disagree with her it's not up to them to decide on behalf of their classmates.

 

[Simplet]

The Europeans being greeted as gods is pretty much apocryphal.

I've seen Pocahontas, you can't fool me.

 

[Valhelm]

so white people should just give their money away to minorities?

Edit: i'm not trying to mock anyone or w/e, just don't understand by what 'own up' is supposed to mean by your standards

I mean, i'm pretty sure most of the sensible ones aren't going YAY RACISM! WE ENSLAVED THE MOST RACES! MAX SCORE or anything like that

By "own up", I mean that white people need to accept that they have a position of privilege, which they achieved through morally abhorrent means, and that white people need to realize that they are still continuing to oppress people of color, both at home and abroad.

The fact that many white people are offended whenever their ancestors (not specific ancestors, but European white people from the 15th-20th centuries) are accused of racism says so much about current society. It's awesome that most white people agree that racism is wrong, but it's not so awesome that most white people act like they have nothing to do with it.

 

[dapperbandit]

You don't think that white people should own up to their generally higher position in American society? Seriously?

I think you're referring to white privelage.

White Guilt is something different and is a concept I find very problematic. Because on the one hand, people are reminded "it is meaningless to take pride in the accomplishments of your own race that had nothing to do with you" but at the same time, white people are encouraged to feel shame and guilt, the reverse of pride, over actions of their own race they had nothing to do with.

With White Privelage I can understand the reasoning, but I still think it's a dead end. Where does it take us? To be aware in your dealings and interactions with others that by virtue of being born white, middle class perhaps and so on, you are more fortunate and you should remain aware of this. Great. But how does it help anybody? Perhaps I'm ill informed but I don't see any practical applications.

 

[The Technomancer]

Following this logic, then being proud to be black is questionable too?

Generally speaking white people haven't been basically been told forever that they should be ashamed of themselves, that they're inferior, etc. White pride isn't compensating for anything the way the pride of a historically repressed minority is.

 

[lastflowers]

We have no idea what was going on in that classroom so I'm unsure why everybody seems to have such a strong opinion about it. Maybe there's just three shitty entitled white kids. Or maybe there's a professor who has a particular bug up her ass about societal racism and consistently inserted into lectures it wasn't relevant to. If my physiology professor constantly ranted about racism I'd be annoyed too. Legitimate issue, not the time to talk about it. Maybe.

I find both possibilities equally likely. And frankly based on the one quote from the school's reprimand saying she was singling out particular students almost as if she was accusing them, I'm slightly leaning towards the complaints being justified.

yep, but we'll probably never find out what actually occurred in the classroom. My father has worked at a smaller college for nearly twenty years, and he's commented on the questionable nature of some younger faculty

Spoiler

and much more numerous comments on really stupid actions by students....one called him a Pompous Ass once

By "own up", I mean that white people need to accept that they have a position of privilege, which they achieved through morally abhorrent means, and that white people need to realize that they are still continuing to oppress people of color, both at home and abroad.

The fact that many white people are offended whenever their ancestors (not specific ancestors, but European white people from the 15th-20th centuries) are accused of racism says so much about current society. It's awesome that most white people agree that racism is wrong, but it's not so awesome that most white people act like they have nothing to do with it.

EDIT: Misunderstood what you were saying with this. White people should still read Go Down, Moses though because it's a very intriguing look at White Guilt without actual action.

 

[teh_rhn]

By "own up", I mean that white people need to accept that they have a position of privilege, which they achieved through morally abhorrent means, and that white people need to realize that they are still continuing to oppress people of color, both at home and abroad.

again, i'm pretty sure most white people realize that, even my friend, who's a blue eyed blonde, acknowledges that, but that doesn't make her inherently a bad human being ..
We shouldn't try bringing other people down, but bringing the people who are left down upwards, progress society together and remember and learn from the past as not to repeat it ..
Some people say "i don't see color", which is horseshit, my philosphy is that i see color, but I choose not to give a fuck about it and treat people like .... humans i suppose, valuing them by their personality not by their color ...

there's my naive simplistic hope of the world

 

[genjiZERO]

I think in the context of when minorities do it, as other posters have said, it's about being ok with who you are. In fact, substitute pride for "being ok with being black parade" or "being ok with being gay parade". But, in a not so ironic fashion, it sounds a little... Misused when you translate to "being ok with being a straight white male parade".

Well I actually agree with you. I didn't want to expand on it because I'm afraid people will take me the wrong way, but I don't think black and white really mean the same thing in a racial/cultural context. To me, "black" equates to African American culture as much as it does any racial undertone. On the other hand, "white" does not mean Caucasian American culture, and only refers to race.

The reason for this is the way black people v caucasians came to the US. Black people were forcefully brought as slaves from disparate parts of Africa and a new culture and identity was forced upon them. An individual black person, in the US, is not likely to be able to trace his lineage to a specific place in Africa. On the other hand, white people can. They know exactly where the came from.

So, to me, black can mean African American culture. But white never mean Caucasian American culture.

Now to expand on this, I think this bad for African Americans in the long run. I know "African American" has a somewhat negative connotation, and "Caucasian American" or "European American" is considered silly, but I actually think they are far superior terms than black or white. In part, because they are more accurate, but also because - going back to my original sentiment - they make the identity about culture instead of physical characteristics.

 

[Valhelm]

I think you're referring to white privelage.

White Guilt is something different and is a concept I find very problematic. Because on the one hand, people are reminded "it is meaningless to take pride in the accomplishments of your own race that had nothing to do with you" but at the same time, white people are encouraged to feel shame and guilt, the reverse of pride, over actions of their own race they had nothing to do with.

With White Privelage I can understand the reasoning, but I still think it's a dead end. Where does it take us? To be aware in your dealings and interactions with others that by virtue of being born white, middle class perhaps and so on, you are more fortunate and you should remain aware of this. Great. But how does it help anybody? Perhaps I'm ill informed but I don't see any practical applications.

"White guilt" is just the recognition of white privilege by white people. White people should not feel guilty for what their precursors did, or apologize for historical atrocities, but we need to recognize what we hold a position of almost inalienable privilege, and that we need to take action to ensure that, in the long run, all Americans (and perhaps all people) have access to this privilege.

 

[backflip10019]

In an American History class in college, I had one black professor who would divert almost every subject he talked about to an issue of race. He told us that in his time living in upstate New York, he was pulled over while driving 45 times for "driving while black." As a white male, I found it kind of insensitive that he was making sweeping anecdotal generalizations about race so casually in front of a class of about thirty. It's kind of disgusting how this still exists in academia, especially coming from a top professor at a top college in the country.

 

[JCX]

Reading the course description, I'm kind of curious as to how exactly the subject came up to be honest. Not saying it was without reason or just cause to be discussed, but it seems the concept of this course is to explain how the way news and media are conveyed has grown/evolved. It doesn't seem to directly lend itself to a history lesson on racial issues in the US.

I can't speak for this school, but at my college, professors regularly threw course descriptions out the window. There was a science class, same class number ad description, but mine was about evolutionary biology, while a friend's was about music history.

 

[Arde5643]

I don't think most white people are aware of the so called concept of white privilege or even how casual racism is still racism.

I mean, in GAF, sure, you have almost everyone who acknowledge white privilege, but in the real world? Yeah, good luck with that.

 

[Kinitari]

I think you're referring to white privelage.

White Guilt is something different and is a concept I find very problematic. Because on the one hand, people are reminded "it is meaningless to take pride in the accomplishments of your own race that had nothing to do with you" but at the same time, white people are encouraged to feel shame and guilt, the reverse of pride, over actions of their own race they had nothing to do with.

With White Privelage I can understand the reasoning, but I still think it's a dead end. Where does it take us? To be aware in your dealings and interactions with others that by virtue of being born white, middle class perhaps and so on, you are more fortunate and you should remain aware of this. Great. But how does it help anybody? Perhaps I'm ill informed but I don't see any practical applications.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think what can really be gained with the privilege statement is that maybe more consideration/observation. However, I think the white privilege (and privilege in general) rebuttals I these sorts of arguments are often wielded as a club, "you are too privileged to get it, you should feel bad" is the negative ways I've seen it applied. Which seems more like lashing out, and is not likely to encourage people to reconsider their positions

 

[Nokagi]

White males between the ages of 12 and 35 are just the worst.

Replace white with black and you'd never escape the racist label.

 

[Slayven]

In an American History class in college, I had one black professor who would divert almost every subject he talked about to an issue of race. He told us that in his time living in upstate New York, he was pulled over while driving 45 times for "driving while black." As a white male, I found it kind of insensitive that he was making sweeping anecdotal generalizations about race so casually in front of a class of about thirty. It's kind of disgusting how this still exists in academia, especially coming from a top professor at a top college in the country.

Well American History is some racist shit.

 

[Dude Abides]

Whiny entitled college students trying to control the curriculum are the worst.

 

[pants]

What class does she teach?

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

With White Privelage I can understand the reasoning, but I still think it's a dead end. Where does it take us? To be aware in your dealings and interactions with others that by virtue of being born white, middle class perhaps and so on, you are more fortunate and you should remain aware of this. Great. But how does it help anybody? Perhaps I'm ill informed but I don't see any practical applications.

I find it's useful in explaining to other people why minorities in poverty struggle to get out. "They should get a job! I got a job!" can be pretty easily countered with "Okay, next time you send out your resume to employers, list your name as 'Tyrone Brown' and see how well that goes for you."

You'd be amazed at how many people never even consider that. Suddenly they start understanding that they shouldn't be looking down on these people because they haven't met the same success as themselves. That can really change their opinion regarding public policy and voting.

You're looking to get rid of their just-world mindset and have them consider people's situations. Conservatives and people who ignore racism often have a just-world mindset, where they think that people are poor because they're lazy or stupid, without ever considering the situations or disadvantages that might impact their lifestyle.

 

[MC Safety]

The sad truth is a lot of college professors teach to an agenda or have a bent that is functional only to them as a pedagogues.

These teachers are best identified quickly and their classes dropped.

I had a history instructor whose focus was American technological innovation in the late 1800s/early 1900s. So we studied machines, an endless progression of machines, to the exclusion of everything else. Presenting a paper to this guy about a movement or trend or event that didn't have as its focus a piece of machinery ensured a low grade.

The guy wanted machines and wasn't equipped to talk about anything else.

 

[TS-08]

What class does she teach?

Are you serious?

 

[Stumpokapow]

I'm also not sympathetic toward the instructor. The complaints about her being put on the spot ring hollow. If she is truly a professional and knows her material she could have handled herself. Put on the spot? Right.

Just FYI, it's exceedingly difficult to defuse a situation where a student hijacks a class or discussion group to talk about how Monsanto is more powerful than the American government.

Or when they hijack the class to argue that the US doesn't qualify as a democracy because there's no civilian control of the military.

Or when they hijack the class to argue that the US government is more socialist than any other in the world.

Or when they hijack a class to argue that a local political leader is as bad or worse than Hitler.

Or when they hijack a class on media portrayals of sexuality in youth to go on a rant about how their kids are good kids and they don't believe in exposing their children to offensive content and we live in a sin-cursed world.

Or when they hijack a class to argue that, in the context of how judiciaries can be outlets for groups to use constitutional claims to achieve equality, that equality is not a good thing.

It's extremely extremely difficult as a lecturer of any kind to be about to defuse situations where students are not interested in learning or facts but instead are passionately arguing low-information beliefs that they hold deeply personally and that they are not willing to suspend so they can take even a minute to think critically.

This combined with a serve-the-client mentality that has been fostered in most undergraduate contexts, which in turn leaves professors powerless to discipline or remove problem students, makes it very difficult to deal with these situations. It should also be noted that while lecturers are experts in the field they are teaching, many are not experts at teaching. University teaching requires passing a comp exam and then getting the gig. It does not require formal training in methods of education. So in many cases instructors don't have the skills or self-confidence needed to be able to deal with problem students even if they do have the knowledge to dispute their assessment of the issues.