Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen

Believe me when I tell you I tried looking for a good plasma display before I decided to go LCD. Unfortunately, where I live the full HD models are extremely overpriced (going from 200 to 300% the amazon US' retail price) and those that are affordable are just 720p. I'm not aiming anywhere below 1080p since I'll be upgrading to PS4/Xbone later this year (probably WiiU as well),

Is there any LCD that has absolutely no issues at all? I'm speaking plasma levels of uniformity and contrast? Zero banding, non-existant uniformity issues? 180° viewing angle?

As I keep learning I've pretty much come to realize it is always a gamble with LCD displays.
 
Is there any LCD that has absolutely no issues at all? I'm speaking plasma levels of uniformity and contrast? Zero banding, non-existant uniformity issues? 180° viewing angle?

As I keep learning I've pretty much come to realize it is always a gamble with LCD displays.

Nope. I'm afraid what you are looking for is technically not possible. Viewing angle is due to technology. We have mainly edge lit LCD displays on the market and the best you could hope for is a panel that has no dirty screen effect and solid uniformity and no clouds. Some panels got better lately - the Samsung premium models have improved here only offering the typical flashlights.
 
Nope. I'm afraid what you are looking for is technically not possible. Viewing angle is due to technology. We have mainly edge lit LCD displays on the market and the best you could hope for is a panel that has no dirty screen effect and solid uniformity and no clouds. Some panels got better lately - the Samsung premium models have improved here only offering the typical flashlights.

Yeah, that's what I've come to realize.

It is unfortunate that Panasonic will stop manufacturing plasmas from this year on. It is a technology that should be kept alive due to its (still) higher quality, refresh rate, contrast ratio and uniformity.
 
Amazon has the Panasonic TC-P65VT60 on sale for $1999.98 which is going down in stock fast. It is down to 305 as of now going down from 700+ they had.

Panasonic TC-P65VT60 65-Inch 1080p 600Hz 3D Smart Plasma HDTV (Includes 2 Pairs of 3D Active Glasses and Built-in Camera)

Good deal on a great TV before the supply dries up with Panasonic out of plasma business. Would buy this to hold over unitl OLED TVs come down in price.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BC4SL18/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Get the 60" ZT60 for the same price as the 65" VT60
 
Yeah, that's what I've come to realize.

It is unfortunate that Panasonic will stop manufacturing plasmas from this year on. It is a technology that should be kept alive due to its (still) higher quality, refresh rate, contrast ratio and uniformity.

Yep, but thats business. The masses want small and cheap displays and there is simply no room for a technology like plasma to be profitable. Its sad that OLED has so much problems with yields and progress in technology. Its sad for enthusiasts but I can live with the quality my LCD is providing.
 
I know this has been asked, but what technology do we have to look forward to, and what will be the best choice in plasma in the year ahead?
 
That's such a relief to read, believe me. Several days ago I was going to buy a Samsung panel but their panel lottery practices gave me headaches and I decided not to trust on them at all.

I've read most people usually get pristine quality displays but there's also some complaints regarding banding issues. Most say it really is a matter of luck (since most LCD displays are prone to banding until now), but if what you say is true then I shouldn't truly worry about hunting the right panel.

Edit: I'm reading your edit and that's exactly what I'm looking for: Honest opinions. Thanks for going in-depth with your experience with this panel.

I wish you good luck. Content that suffers the most are games with mostly flat, basic colors. Journey on PS3 for instance is just painful to look at. Movies are mostly all right.
 
I've got about 61 hours, mixture of gaming without HUD and break-in slides, on my Panasonic VT60. Very happy with the screen. But I do have some questions.

It suffers from slight line-bleeding. It's barely noticeable, will this lessen when the panel has aged more?
The screens seems to shrink, a tiny bit just a few lines of pixels on the right/bottom sides, when I've turned the Pixel Orbiter on. When I switch back to auto the screen jumps back to it's normal size. Is this normal?

No line bleeding is a flaw of the plasma tech and inherent to the tech. It will not get better or worse with time. You just have to learn to live with it.

The pixel orbiter thing is also normal. It moves the picture around so it needs a few pixel lines to do that. It is utterly pointless though especially for the big gaming HUD's so just turn it off.
 
Yep, but thats business. The masses want small and cheap displays and there is simply no room for a technology like plasma to be profitable. Its sad that OLED has so much problems with yields and progress in technology. Its sad for enthusiasts but I can live with the quality my LCD is providing.

small? Everyone I know wants huge displays.
 
No line bleeding is a flaw of the plasma tech and inherent to the tech. It will not get better or worse with time. You just have to learn to live with it.

The pixel orbiter thing is also normal. It moves the picture around so it needs a few pixel lines to do that. It is utterly pointless though especially for the big gaming HUD's so just turn it off.

One thing that I've noticed the past year on my Pioneer is for instance on Real Time with Bill Maher there is a cross hatch pattern behind him and an imaginary darkish line will continue through his person, from one point to the next, behind him. What is that?
 
As long as I get 1080p all I really care about is response time. Thats why I have a monitor. The only problem I have is that it's back lighting(I think thats what its called) is too bright. If a scene is dark you can't see anything. It happened to me in AC4 during night time mission.
 
If you live in NC I'd trade you my Panasonic Plasma plus cash for that W9 :P You got the better TV
I live in Europe... Which Panasonic plasma do you have?

I wish you good luck. Content that suffers the most are games with mostly flat, basic colors. Journey on PS3 for instance is just painful to look at. Movies are mostly all right.
I am going to try Journey tonight to test and see how well it does on my LCD.
 
Regarding plasma break in, I've done nothing with my 65" S60 and have encountered zero image retention. Out of the box all I did was put it in Cinema, kill the sharpness, kill the HDMI content optimization, tweak the low cuts to eliminate any excessive "noise" in blacks, and turn off overscan for my 1080P sources. I'm perfectly happy with the picture coming from a calibrated Kuro. My viewing habits include football all day on Sundays (and now Saturdays; includes the full games aired on Fox with the bright logo/ticker) and plenty of gaming with static HUDs. (ex: just rallied through Bioshock again including one 5-6 hour block)

I've now owned several plasmas and some are definitely better at combatting image retention than others. My previously owned Kuro was pretty much bulletproof with IR (only problem was when I didn't personally use it for over a month and all my girlfriend watched on it was Comedy Central in that period) and so far I've had no worries with the S60. However, I used to own a Panasonic PE8U (holiday model) and a PZ85U that were about on-par with IR handling. After playing Uncharted or Gears of War on either, the bright white ammo HUDs would be visible on white/bright backgrounds for a few hours. I also owned a Panasonic G10 that was the absolute worst when it came to IR handling. I remember playing one of the Forza games where the white track HUD would be extremely visible on the white results screen that immediately followed a race. After a night of watching television, it would still be there on white/bright backgrounds. That thing was an IR magnet for as long as I owned it and -- given the rising blacks problem from that year -- was the absolute worst television I've ever owned. Worth noting: my brother has a Samsung B series plasma that still gets IR from channel logos and my aunt has a 2012 Samsung plasma that I'm fairly certain has the USA logo burned in. (if not, it's certainly one of the worst examples of IR I've ever seen -- they were running it in torched vivid mode when I first watched it, FYI) In addition I have observed no IR on my friends 64" F8500 Samsung but have noticed that another friend's 65" ZT60 does get IR from sports tickers and game HUDs fairly quickly -- but it also fades fairly quickly so it's not a huge annoyance.

At any rate, I think it's silly to have to babysit a TV. Just adjust it to your liking (and readjust as it breaks in) and enjoy. If it's not meeting your needs, exchange it for a different TV. I've done the hundred hours of slides thing with my PZ85 and G10. Both still were exponentially worse with IR than both my Kuro and S60 that I ran out of the box in optimum settings from day one. The only benefit to the slides is if you're going to be copying someone else's white balance adjustments and they have followed the same break in procedure. (i.e. D-Nice's posted settings)

I know this has been asked, but what technology do we have to look forward to, and what will be the best choice in plasma in the year ahead?

OLED is the technology to watch for most. As manufacturers invest, it should be interesting to see who can work out the kinks. (much like the solving of many of plasma and LCD's pitfalls) Yield rate, mura effect, blue pixel lifespan, and even burn-in/image retention are all still concerns with OLED right now.

Only two manufacturers will be producing plasmas in 2014: LG and Samsung. If you simply want cheap, LG will have you covered. Other than that, they really don't do anything beyond provide sufficient performance. Black levels have historically been the worst of the plasma manufacturers and they haven't actually made any advancements in picture quality in years.

It's heavily rumored that Samsung will be putting out a cheaper F8500 (will be called something else entirely) without all the extra garbage that nobody uses (ex. built in camera) this year. THAT will be the one to watch if it comes to fruition. They should have a new flagship plasma as well, but there's no information on what improvements -- if any -- it will make to actual picture quality. I'm sure it will have the latest "smart" claptrap if that's your thing, however.
 
No line bleeding is a flaw of the plasma tech and inherent to the tech. It will not get better or worse with time. You just have to learn to live with it.

This is true. However, some manufacturers were seemingly able to lessen it more effectively than others. Pioneers have handled this far better than Panasonics and Samsungs for as long as I can remember, but it was still visible in the most extreme circumstances.

EDIT: Apologies for double-posting.
 
As long as I get 1080p all I really care about is response time. Thats why I have a monitor. The only problem I have is that it's back lighting(I think thats what its called) is too bright. If a scene is dark you can't see anything. It happened to me in AC4 during night time mission.

that's gamma. It's rarely your panel. Usually the game just needs that adjusted.
 
I know this has been asked, but what technology do we have to look forward to, and what will be the best choice in plasma in the year ahead?

Samsung hasn't announced their plasma line for 2014 yet but they said it's coming. They're probably the only ones that will deliver a decent plasma.
 
No line bleeding is a flaw of the plasma tech and inherent to the tech. It will not get better or worse with time. You just have to learn to live with it.

The pixel orbiter thing is also normal. It moves the picture around so it needs a few pixel lines to do that. It is utterly pointless though especially for the big gaming HUD's so just turn it off.
Thanks. As I said it's barely noticeable, only under certain conditions which never happen when watching from a normal position, so it won't effect me.
One thing that I've noticed the past year on my Pioneer is for instance on Real Time with Bill Maher there is a cross hatch pattern behind him and an imaginary darkish line will continue through his person, from one point to the next, behind him. What is that?
Does it look similar to this picture? If yes, than that's line bleeding afaik.
 
Surprised more people here aren't talking about the Vizio lineup announced at CES. I'm sorta glad I waited and will now see how the P series Vizio's turn out.

Early impressions from people with the 2014 E-series say that despite it being their lowest end line of TVs, the full-array local-dimming (despite being only a few zones on the E-series) works well. Someone over at AVS also measured the lag at 27ms. Not bad.
 
Surprised more people here aren't talking about the Vizio lineup announced at CES. I'm sorta glad I waited and will now see how the P series Vizio's turn out.

Early impressions from people with the 2014 E-series say that despite it being their lowest end line of TVs, the full-array local-dimming (despite being only a few zones on the E-series) works well. Someone over at AVS also measured the lag at 27ms. Not bad.

To me, Vizio had the most exciting TV's at CES. I'm most excited to see the 65" Vizio R series in person. 4K, Full array backlight with over 300 dimming zones.

I owned 3 Vizio M's, which all had awesome PQ but still had some major issues. Motion handling was terrible. Even the slowest side to side pans would turn the screen into a huge blur, even with motion smoothing set to high. The "Smart Dimming" was also a joke, with only 16 dimming zones, it lead to some extreme blooming.

The dimming should be much better with the P and R series this year with full array backlighting and local dimming but I still have doubts about Vizio's ability to handle motion though. We shall see.
 
I wish I could get another Panasonic Plasma before they dissapear but I can't justify it. My Panasonic 42 inch Plasma from 2007 (TH-42PZ77U) is still going strong. The picture quality on it is still amazing, I feel better than many LCD's I see sold new today.

It cost a pretty penny back in the day at 1600, but it was worth every cent.

I ended up being the same way. The only time I 'm really bothered is when my TV is all black and it's clearly not just black anymore. I can't justify spending the money.

edit: I think I'm going to be using this: http://panasonic.mironto.sk/final_thoughts/ as a way to reset my blacks on my TV>
 
Whats a good site to do TV calibration with?

might as well use the Internet browser on this tv for something.

I'm gonna say that using an internet browser on your tv surfing to a site for calibration doesn't seem like the best route. I'd recommend you spend a little money and get the Disney WOW disc and calibrate with that.
 
I'm gonna say that using an internet browser on your tv surfing to a site for calibration doesn't seem like the best route. I'd recommend you spend a little money and get the Disney WOW disc and calibrate with that.

But thats direct displaying image quality
It isnt using a external device, sure using a wow disc on PS4 to calibrate is nice BUT
what about when I switch inputs to my FIOS HD box?, pretty sure the calibration done on wow disc on PS4 means nothing.

I watch more FiOS HD than actually BR movies on Disc or netflix, so how do I calibrate for that?. Since I can boot up the Full screen browser at full resolution while the Fios is on the lower corner PIP style Why not run a basic calibration site?.
 
Yeah, it seems like the w802a has some of the worst quality control of any TV. I mean seriously, I went through 4 and all of them had dead pixels or weird grey blotches. I considered a w900a, but I hardly see the point when it's not passive 3D and thus its benefits over other TVs is nothing.

I would prefer an LED TV honestly if they just made more with full-array local dimming for reasonable prices.

Tell me if you like my plan

1) Keep my S64 and try to get it to work nicely with my Wii / PS3
2) Return my w802a (which has 4 dead pixels)
3) Get a 3D TV in 2014, maybe one of those wedge TVs Sony is coming out with.
4) Sell my older LCD from 2009 and keep the S64 as a movie-watching TV

Or alternatively, wait until 4K 3D. Yes I really like passive 3D.

50W685. W6 has a better screen than the W8, low input lag, and passive 3D.
 
But thats direct displaying image quality
It isnt using a external device, sure using a wow disc on PS4 to calibrate is nice BUT
what about when I switch inputs to my FIOS HD box?, pretty sure the calibration done on wow disc on PS4 means nothing.

I watch more FiOS HD than actually BR movies on Disc or netflix, so how do I calibrate for that?. Since I can boot up the Full screen browser at full resolution while the Fios is on the lower corner PIP style Why not run a basic calibration site?.

Ok man...you are convinced you are right. Good luck
 
How much better would a ZT60 look than a 2011 TC-P50ST30? My st30 probably has less than 1000 hours of use and looks great still, but I just worry about having a kuro situation where it's years before a tv comes close to the VT/ZT.
 
But thats direct displaying image quality
It isnt using a external device, sure using a wow disc on PS4 to calibrate is nice BUT
what about when I switch inputs to my FIOS HD box?, pretty sure the calibration done on wow disc on PS4 means nothing.

I watch more FiOS HD than actually BR movies on Disc or netflix, so how do I calibrate for that?. Since I can boot up the Full screen browser at full resolution while the Fios is on the lower corner PIP style Why not run a basic calibration site?.

On newish TV's If you get a calibration BluRay you can copy your settings to other inputs i.e. Your Fios input. The problem with the TV's browser is often times you can't make fine adjustments to the picture because a lot of the settings are greyed out, and/or some of the picture modes won't be available while using the browser.
 
Thanks. As I said it's barely noticeable, only under certain conditions which never happen when watching from a normal position, so it won't effect me.
Does it look similar to this picture? If yes, than that's line bleeding afaik.
Line bleed is extremely noticeable to me on my S64, even under normal circumstances.

As for depth, increasing the "Black Extension" makes the image pop a bit more, although crushing some blacks.
 
How much better would a ZT60 look than a 2011 TC-P50ST30? My st30 probably has less than 1000 hours of use and looks great still, but I just worry about having a kuro situation where it's years before a tv comes close to the VT/ZT.

I have the exact same tv but in a 65" and I have been wondering the same thing in regards to how much better a VT60 would be over a 2011 ST30. I'm hoping more than a minor upgrade as I couldn't resist that Amazon price of $1999 for the 65vt.
 
preview from thrusted reviews:

Sony TVs in 2014: Our first impressions
Sony is looking in much better shape to capitalise on its ‘end to end’ 4K story this year than it did last, thanks simply to having more 4K TV model sizes and price points for people to pick from. We’re really pleased, too, to see Sony persevering with its policy of getting back to putting quality – build quality, sound quality and picture quality – at the forefront of its TV thinking.

The amount of 4K streaming sources on show at Sony’s stand also bodes well for the brand’s ability to offer a genuine 4K content solution earlier than its rivals, and its new online system generally is better looking and more helpful than last year’s.

Pricing will be key, along with how much punters embrace the overtly stylised design of its premium models. But hopefully for the sake of the TV industry as well as consumers 2014 will turn out to be the year where Sony really delivers on the TV promise it started to show a couple of years ago.
Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/opini...erything-you-need-to-know#mVmkgt1KcUCd4IAA.99

a lot more at the link
 
How much better would a ZT60 look than a 2011 TC-P50ST30? My st30 probably has less than 1000 hours of use and looks great still, but I just worry about having a kuro situation where it's years before a tv comes close to the VT/ZT.

The Panasonic TC-P50ST30 has a black level of 0.0462 cd/m2

https://webcache.googleusercontent....ast&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

That's not that great, about on part with older VA LCD panels with the backlight lowered.

The ZT65 on the other hand has a black level of 0.0040 cd/m2
That is 7 Times lower than your set.
 
The Panasonic TC-P50ST30 has a black level of 0.0462 cd/m2

https://webcache.googleusercontent....ast&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

That's not that great, about on part with older VA LCD panels with the backlight lowered.

The ZT65 on the other hand has a black level of 0.0040 cd/m2
That is 7 Times lower than your set.

0.0135fL on an ST30? Nah. Cleveland's rush to push out first reviews and Chad's meter have a history of producing outlier MLL's compared to what ultimately emerges as the agreed upon consensus. ST30 should be around 0.006 - 0.008fL in actual use. VT60/ZT60 measurements are all over the place so it's impossible to say where they ultimately land. I would say 0.002fL is the safest assumption, but anywhere between 0.001 and 0.003 is conceivable.
 
Even if it wouldn't be much better than an ST30, this is still just 2k for a 65" TV. And one of the best on the market.

Just think about that for a second.
 
What are the current best LED TVs for gaming with good IQ? Aside from the W6 models, I wanna weigh in my options as the one I'm loooking for is out of stock. Any chance of Amazon restocking?
 
0.0135fL on an ST30? Nah. Cleveland's rush to push out first reviews and Chad's meter have a history of producing outlier MLL's compared to what ultimately emerges as the agreed upon consensus. ST30 should be around 0.006 - 0.008fL in actual use. VT60/ZT60 measurements are all over the place so it's impossible to say where they ultimately land. I would say 0.002fL is the safest assumption, but anywhere between 0.001 and 0.003 is conceivable.

The number match with what other sites reviewed plasmas in 2011. Slightly better than Samsung Plasmas & better than LCDs, but still way behind the 2013 Panasonics & the 2008 Pioneers Kuros.
2013 VT & ZT sets were a huge leap in picture quality for Panasonics line.
 
I had the chance to play some PS3 today on a KDL-50W650A.

I'm truly impressed. No input lag at all. As soon as I pressed a button there was reaction on the screen; same goes when I moved either analog stick. Luckily the guy who allowed me to test some gaming had Dante's Inferno on display and his save was right inside a really dark area (some sort of organic looking catacombs with fire and ropes). Truly deep blacks and bright whites. There was something noticeable though: when there's fast motion you can clearly see some blurring, but it wasn't as bad I thought it would be judging from some other opinions. No noticeable banding either.

Btw GAF, although I had already discarded Samsung, today I accidentally stumbled upon 6 TS01 panels for FH6030 displays. Since those are the holy grail (aka, best panels you can get on a Samsung) I was wondering if anyone in here owns any 6030 and what do you have to say about it regarding gaming and in general as well.

Edit: LOL. . . I just learned that every single FH6030 has a TS01 panel. And here I was thinking I had gotten extremely lucky. :P
 
The number match with what other sites reviewed plasmas in 2011. Slightly better than Samsung Plasmas & better than LCDs, but still way behind the 2013 Panasonics & the 2008 Pioneers Kuros.
2013 VT & ZT sets were a huge leap in picture quality for Panasonics line.

2011 was the first year rising blacks were reputed to be eliminated, inspiring Cnet to take on long term testing of a variety of models to confirm. They actually improved with age as the ST30 hit 0.0066fL at 1500 hours. IIRC D-Nice measured 0.008XfL on the ST30 he calibrated and derived his reference settings from (presumably aged to 100 or so hours), which I'm sure would also improve with use. I had a GT30 at the time and know my first calibration run at around 300 hours returned 0.0055fL. With 0.0135fL, you're almost getting into 2007 territory as even the '08 and '09's (pre-rise) started out well below that. There have been a lot of advancements since '11, but MLL has been pretty incremental. VT30 > VT50 > VT60 were largely ~0.001fL improvements (e.g. ~0.004 > 0.003 > 0.002) give or take.
 
small? Everyone I know wants huge displays.
Its nice to want things but reality is, that the models from 32 - 46 inch are the top selling devices. So thats what the masses apprently want, not everyone has big apartments or houses with room enough for those 65 inchers. And of course there is always price. 2000$ isnt mainstream, nowhere.
 
I'm really glad I chose for 55 inch instead of 50. It took some time to get used to it, but I wouldn't want to go back to a smaller screen now. In case anyone is in doubt, always choose the bigger size.

What are the current best LED TVs for gaming with good IQ? Aside from the W6 models, I wanna weigh in my options as the one I'm loooking for is out of stock. Any chance of Amazon restocking?
The W905 has really good PQ and low input lag. The price is quite high though.
 
I'm really glad I chose for 55 inch instead of 50. It took some time to get used to it, but I wouldn't want to go back to a smaller screen now. In case anyone is in doubt, always choose the bigger size.


The W905 has really good PQ and low input lag. The price is quite high though.

Too high and too big. 42" is the max.
 
0.0135fL on an ST30? Nah. Cleveland's rush to push out first reviews and Chad's meter have a history of producing outlier MLL's compared to what ultimately emerges as the agreed upon consensus. ST30 should be around 0.006 - 0.008fL in actual use. VT60/ZT60 measurements are all over the place so it's impossible to say where they ultimately land. I would say 0.002fL is the safest assumption, but anywhere between 0.001 and 0.003 is conceivable.
Actually, there's a simple and more likely explanation.

Panasonic 30 series plasma models had rising blacks.

It wasn't until a firmware update that the fix was issued.

Now, on series 10 and 20 the first rise was done around the 180 hours of operation and it was 0.03 cd/m^2 rise.

It's only normal, if it was a review that while testing they broke it in and all that, if they didn't measure it straight out of the box then they could be measuring after the rising blacks took place. Back then it was a known issue so reviewers effectively talked about it, that it had rising blacks (some reviews some months afterwards citing that said information was outdated et all)

ST30 had lower blacks than that. For that's roughly what my 42S10 had out of the box. (perhaps a little lower even, V10 was 0.03 cd/m^2 after all.
 
42" is too big? That's the minimum for me. I'm at 55 and could go bigger.

Depends on your room/livingroom size. I'm positive that people who have enough space to fit a 50+ inch plasma into their homes don't even care that much about price. Those who can afford 60" and above could be considered enthusiasts due to the extremely overpricing and amazing PQ of those sets.
 
0.0135fL on an ST30? Nah. Cleveland's rush to push out first reviews and Chad's meter have a history of producing outlier MLL's compared to what ultimately emerges as the agreed upon consensus. ST30 should be around 0.006 - 0.008fL in actual use. VT60/ZT60 measurements are all over the place so it's impossible to say where they ultimately land. I would say 0.002fL is the safest assumption, but anywhere between 0.001 and 0.003 is conceivable.

I think VT/ZT60 are at .001fL, which would make sense given people can't seem to tell the difference between them and the 9G Kuro while those with a 500M/101FD say their panels are a bit darker.

I saw measurements for the ST60 and F8500 at about .002fL, which is apparently the same as the VT50, and again they jive with all the reviewers impressions. ST50/GT50 were around .004fL, same as the 8G Kuro. Prior to that Panasonic was hovering around .008fL. I know that's what my PZ85 measured (pre-rise) and that was 2008.

If we're talking pure MLL Panasonic hasn't gone that far since 2008, but that's mostly because their MLL was fairly low to begin with. Samsung plasmas at the time were well above that. Major advancements since then have been in panel construction (bonded filter plus removing the outer glass layer) and filter design that allow plasmas to look good outside of a completely dark room. Remember, the MLL of the 8G Kuro was only half the story. Pioneer was the first to make a plasma that didn't look horribly washed out and reflective inside a lit room.
 
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