Support NeoGAF

[Zafir]

The interview I saw of her didn't seem that bad. But I didn't really dig into it to get a full picture.

I always felt the lesbian idea was a bit silly though. It seemed more like a big sister/little sister kind of relationship to me. I didn't even think lesbians once until a friend mentioned it.

 

[Dark_castle]

Because you're playing a JRPG. It is to be expected.

Disagree. I've played JRPG all my life and Vanille still stands out along with Snow and Hope, in a negative way.

Just the immediate previous mainline Final Fantasy in XII has a perfectly normal cast of characters and a pretty good one at that, all despite Vaan, Penelo and Fran's lack of involvement in the game's story.

 

[Dark_castle]

The interview I saw of her didn't seem that bad. But I didn't really dig into it to get a full picture.

I always felt the lesbian idea was a bit silly though. It seemed more like a big sister/little sister kind of relationship to me. I didn't even think lesbians once until a friend mentioned it.

The actor herself speaks fine IRL. It's the direction of the voice acting that causes issue. This is both the fault of the localization team and the game's writer.

 

[BocoDragon]

Disagree. I've played JRPG all my life and Vanille still stands out along with Snow and Hope, in a negative way.

I agree with your view that XIII feels like a new level of that kind of character.

But I think it's FFXIII's ultra-dramatic tone. These cutsey, emo and shounen hero characters really stand out in a story that purports to be serious and cutting-edge cool.

Were Vanille a little chibi hand-drawn moe girl, I think she would be more dismissed as "oh Japan/jRPGs". Because she's a realistic girl in a realistic world.... she feels dissonant.

 

[Zafir]

Disagree. I've played JRPG all my life and Vanille still stands out along with Snow and Hope, in a negative way.

Just the immediate previous mainline Final Fantasy in XII has a perfectly normal cast of characters and a pretty good one at that, all despite Vaan, Penelo and Fran's lack of involvement in the game's story.

Id hardly call Vaan or Penelo good when they have such a lack of involvement and so little reason to even be there.

 

[dramatis]

Ehh, Mayuri is more of the innocent/cutesy type, while Vanille was clearly very sexualized.

I'd argue that the innocent/cutesy type has a degree of sexualization involved in it. Nowadays I feel like every female character in anime/manga/games is sexualized to some extent; I understand the business sides want to rake in those who are attracted by such base things, but I think they could attract a wider audience without.

 

[UnrealEck]

The only character I liked in that game was Fang. She was sort of unusual for a JRPG. I liked her aussie accent too.

 

[Zafir]

The actor herself speaks fine IRL. It's the direction of the voice acting that causes issue. This is both the fault of the localization team and the game's writer.

Oh I'm aware of that, the very interview said she was told to do the accent. I meant more she was fine with the game, and was respectful in that interview.

 

[adamsapple]

The only character I liked in that game was Fang. She was sort of unusual for a JRPG. I liked her aussie accent too.

both fang and vanille are aussie's because they're from Pulse, the land down under, get it ? GET IT ? HUH ??

 

[BocoDragon]

Just the immediate previous mainline Final Fantasy in XII has a perfectly normal cast of characters and a pretty good one at that, all despite Vaan, Penelo and Fran's lack of involvement in the game's story.

The tone and maturity disparity between XII and XIII was night and day.

Different creators.

I wish FF continued to be a showcase for completely different teams of creatives... With Matsuno purged, it's really alternating between two teams who aren't all that different in sensibilities.

 

[HUELEN10]

She's said to be 19 years old, yet when Snow hands her a gun, she points a real gun at her ally and goes "Bang!". Seriously? That gun was fucking loaded. Why did she do that?

I don't think I've gotten to this point in the game; was it early on? I somehow don't remember this occurring. Personally, can't say the character is that enjoyable. While on-topic, the name vanille always confused me. I thought Sazh was actually Vanille for the longest time, and that Vanille was called something else.

 

[UnrealEck]

both fang and vanille are aussie's because they're from Pulse, the land down under, get it ? GET IT ? HUH ??

Oh yeah. I forgot Vanille was an aussie accent too. I guess I must have subconciously supressed the memory of her whiney voice.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't think I've gotten to this point in the game; was it early on? I somehow don't remember this occurring. Personally, can't say the character is that enjoyable. While on-topic, the name vanille always confused me. I thought Sazh was actually Vanille for the longest time, and that Vanille was called something else.

Calling a black guy Vanille would be.... problematic.

But then again, they did name a white guy Snow

 

[Zafir]

The tone and maturity disparity between XII and XIII was night and day.

Different creators.

I wish FF continued to be a showcase for completely different teams of creatives... With Matsuno purged, it's really alternating between two teams who aren't all that different in sensibilities.

Yeah, that and improve their development process. I think the majority of my problems with both XII and XIII come down to development issues(Matsuno leaving in XIIs case and poor scheduling with XIII).

 

[truly101]

I only found Vanille to be unbearable when she was around hope. I didn't have a problem with her when she was with Sazh or Fang.

 

[Dark_castle]

The tone and maturity disparity between XII and XIII was night and day.

Different creators.

I wish FF continued to be a showcase for completely different teams of creatives... With Matsuno purged, it's really alternating between two teams who aren't all that different in sensibilities.

Which is kind of bizarre because Daisuke Watanabe worked as the scenario writer in both FFXII and FFXIII. Granted, Watanabe's writing was expanded upon Miwa Shoda's script, which in turns came from the hands of Matsuno and under the supervision of Jun Akiyama after Matsuno left, but he has to have some level of input right?

I think it goes to show that it's important what the base story and scenario outline is about. I really, really hope that Nomura had the right mind set and story direction of creating a more mature story/character/setting. Based on the story premise revealed thus far, it looks promising.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Vanille (with Hope and Snow as close second and third) are the worst character in any VG I've ever had to suffer through. That says a lot about FF XIII cast and main story...

 

[BocoDragon]

Yeah, that and improve their development process. I think the majority of my problems with both XII and XIII come down to development issues(Matsuno leaving in XIIs case and poor scheduling with XIII).

Agreed. Both games would have been better with a stronger development process. I know making these big games is a tall, tall order, but other teams have accomplished similarly large games. It's all about process.

I think they were given a lot of leyway on art asset development, thinking long-term iteration was their key to making art (plus they had delays in their game engine on XIII).

But there's nothing like a fire under your ass to generate surprising innovation. I was reading a quote from manga creator Monkey Punch (random, I know), and he said that all of his most-praised work was done under extreme deadlines. He doesn't even remember creating much of them.

 

[Blackage]

It's the voice acting and the anime-style of Final Fantasy that's become more obvious since they moved from sprites and low res polygons to high res, AAA development.

If you could possibly imagine Vanille as a sprite, without a voice that was 2D from say the FF IV-VI era or even Chrono Triggerish era that said the same things I guarantee you that she'd probably be a more beloved character then she is.

It's just that when you have all this development, and the Japanese idea of what's cool, you end up with these anime trope characters, and then you translate that to English and it just doesn't work.

How many of you could tell that Hope was "Seething with rage" over his mother dying and blamed Snow for what happened? I honestly couldn't tell wtf he was feeling from the voice acting and movements of the character in-game. I had to read the bloody chapter description to even know he was mad.

Vanille had some internal pain going on throughout the game? Fuck me if I didn't notice until she actually broke down crying at the half-way point.

Honestly if she was a 2D sprite, and the sprite did that sad face the FFVI cast did at times I'd have been able to recognize her character depth and the trials she was going through far more then in FFXIII where she was ridiculously happy all the goddamn time, and her being sad was that anime girl sigh that nobody in the real world can recognize as "traumatic pain".

 

[adamsapple]

The tone and maturity disparity between XII and XIII was night and day.

Different creators.

I wish FF continued to be a showcase for completely different teams of creatives... With Matsuno purged, it's really alternating between two teams who aren't all that different in sensibilities.

I think it was as much in part due to Alexander O' Smith's localization. He did a fan-fucking-tastic job with it in FFXII.

If I recall even the JP creators preferred the English localization because of it.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Because she's an anime archetype, not a fleshed out realistic person.

This ^

It's just terrible and/or lazy writing.

 

[HUELEN10]

Calling a black guy Vanille would be.... problematic.

But then again, they did name a white guy Snow

Oh no, the reasoning the back of my head was that I thought that squeenix named him Vanille as some sort of reference to Milli Vanilli. Sometimes Japanese game companies do stuff like this after all.

 

[LiK]

She's a dumb character. That's why. Her VO doesn't help.

 

[BocoDragon]

Which is kind of bizarre because Daisuke Watanabe worked as the scenario writer in both FFXII and FFXIII. Granted, Watanabe's writing was expanded upon Miwa Shoda's script, which in turns came from the hands of Matsuno and under the supervision of Jun Akiyama after Matsuno left, but he has to have some level of input right?

I think it goes to show that it's important what the base story and scenario outline is about. I really, really hope that Nomura had the right mind set and story direction of creating a more mature story/character/setting. Based on the story premise revealed thus far, it looks promising.

I think XIII had an amazing base story and scenario outline (Cocoon was a thrilling idea for a setting). And I think they had higher ambitions than they showed. But in the actual rushed 18 month development time that was dedicated to the game itself, I think they used that great backdrop and portfolio of character and level designs, and cobbled together a really messy final narrative. They got away from the good ideas they had on paper.

So yes, I do agree that a solid game concept and scenario outline is important. But I also think it can go awry, because the execution of a story is tied to the game design itself. In the end, your development process needs to have a competent workflow that is up to the task of fulfilling the goals of your base scenario.

 

[Toth]

It's her way of coping with traumatic events. Nothing unusual about it.

 

[Dark_castle]

I think it was as much in part due to Alexander O' Smith's localization. He did a fan-fucking-tastic job with it in FFXII.

If I recall even the JP creators preferred the English localization because of it.

Oh yeah, that.

Hopefully XV uses Kajiya Productions (Alex's localization studio). It'd felt like a Ivalice Alliance title but in modern, contemporary setting.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think it was as much in part due to Alexander O' Smith's localization. He did a fan-fucking-tastic job with it in FFXII.

If I recall even the JP creators preferred the English localization because of it.

HUGE props to Alexander O Smith, yes. His English script really gave me hope that FF would grow up alongside me.

But even in the Japanese original, XII was slightly less odious than the XIII concepts. Eloquent writing or not, it was a more mature game concept.

Oh no, the reasoning the back of my head was that I thought that squeenix named him Vanille as some sort of reference to Milli Vanilli. Sometimes Japanese game companies do stuff like this after all.

Heh. Perhaps so. You are right

 

[P90]

I like Vanille

I kinda like her, too. Snow and, for the most part, Lightning, not so much.

 

[jett]

Immature little princess complex a lot of japanese-created female characters seem to have.

 

[i_am_ben]

The only character I liked in that game was Fang. She was sort of unusual for a JRPG. I liked her aussie accent too.

Fang had an atrociously fake Australian accent though.

 

[Dark_castle]

I think XIII had an amazing base story and scenario outline (Cocoon was a thrilling idea for a setting). And I think they had higher ambitions than they showed. But in the actual rushed 18 month development time that was dedicated to the game itself, I think they used that great backdrop and portfolio of character and level designs, and cobbled together a really messy final narrative. They got away from the good ideas they had on paper.

So yes, I do agree that a solid game concept and scenario outline is important. But I also think it can go awry, because the execution of a story is tied to the game design itself. In the end, your development process needs to have a competent workflow that is up to the task of fulfilling the goals of your base scenario.

Perhaps. I never really care for the mythology and the world created as a result of the many other flaws that XIII possess.

My post was more directed towards what Kitase and Toriyama wanted to do with the story though. The two of them, mainly Toriyama likes these over the top, dramatic storyline that focuses heavily on Gods and wacky storyline that is more often than not, for the lack of better words, hot mess.

I'm sure if he sit his ass down and have a lesson with Matsuno on story-telling 101, he could come up with a more grounded plot and less fantastical, usually nonsensical scenario.

 

[Kuja9001]

These XIII whine threads are funny.

She was ridiculously over-sexualised too. Isn't her eidolon an enormous phallic gun thing that she straddles while making sex noises?

Vanille basically had the same thing.

 

[sixteen-bit]

How old is she in the Japanese version?

 

[Deleted member 74300]

She was ridiculously over-sexualised too. Isn't her eidolon an enormous phallic gun thing that she straddles while making sex noises?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRk5XGQMT5M#t=50

You tell me.

 

[Zafir]

I think XIII had an amazing base story and scenario outline (Cocoon was a thrilling idea for a setting). And I think they had higher ambitions than they showed. But in the actual rushed 18 month development time that was dedicated to the game itself, I think they used that great backdrop and portfolio of character and level designs, and cobbled together a really messy final narrative. They got away from the good ideas they had on paper.

So yes, I do agree that a solid game concept and scenario outline is important. But I also think it can go awry, because the execution of a story is tied to the game design itself. In the end, your development process needs to have a competent workflow that is up to the task of fulfilling the goals of your base scenario.

Yep, exactly my opinion on the matter. Its a real shame honestly because I think it could have been so much better.

 

[Tizoc]

Please enlighten us.

As many have posted previously it's the typical 'cute-ification' that's applied to female characters in japanese media, mainly anime.
If I were to bring up character examples, it'd be Leia from Tales of Xillia and...ice cream hair girl from Tales of Graces f, the one that uses the staff.

 

[jett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRk5XGQMT5M#t=50

You tell me.

 

[n00bsauce87]

Because Japan

When Americans don't understand Japanese culture then translates it to poor character design. They got the game first and was made with a Japanese culture mindset so things like this are added in. I wish there was something deeper, but no. You gotta remember, these aren't American characters you are interacting with in the game so we shouldn't expect them to act all Americany. There are no Nathan Drakes to be had here and we shouldn't be looking for them.

As many have posted previously it's the typical 'cute-ification' that's applied to female characters in japanese media, mainly anime.
If I were to bring up character examples, it'd be Leia from Tales of Xillia and...ice cream hair girl from Tales of Graces f, the one that uses the staff.

That's a perfect example. She's a prototypical Tsundere. Things you wouldn't see in most forms of American entertainment. Although Katniss from Hunger Games could qualify with Gale at times.

 

[BocoDragon]

Perhaps. I never really care for the mythology and the world created as a result of the many other flaws that XIII possess.

My post was more directed towards what Kitase and Toriyama wanted to do with the story though. The two of them, mainly Toriyama likes these over the top, dramatic storyline that focuses heavily on Gods and wacky storyline that is more often than not, for the lack of better words, hot mess.

I'm sure if he sit his ass down and have a lesson with Matsuno on story-telling 101, he could come up with a more grounded plot and less fantastical, usually nonsensical scenario.

"Gods" as a plot are rather weak, yes. But I think if you go back through your knowledge of FF, it was also the backbone of most FF plots. VI, VIII, X, and XII all relied upon the fact that the human badguy was wrestling power that appeared as a result of these god characters.

So IMO the Fal'cie/Cocoon plotline could have been the backdrop for a perfectly normal FF game... but the motivations of the villain characters, and the hero characters, was totally botched in execution. The actual plotting itself was, as you imply, totally nonsensical and unengaging. The gods stuff is fine as a backstory, but the actual plot points should be far more human and relatable.

Still, I think they had a competent scenario design that might have been a great sandbox for a better writer. I wish they had better writers.

 

[Atomsky]

One better: he/she didn't play it.

Its like people in this thread didnt even play the game.

So true!!

 

[Milennia]

This is a normal thing for JRPGs as mentioned a few times already, they just went a little overboard this instant.


In xillia everyone outside of 2 specific characters acts like a child, even though the main character is in medical school and all of the other characters his age or younger (sometimes even the youngest was more wise) were just as childish, he's 15-16 in the games along with 1 of the other characters.


I have accepted this.
I even accepted vanille after understanding the story and fleshing it out in the second and third game.
She grows up pretty damn fast towards the mid-end, yet her voice direction doesn't, so it was a little jarring.

 

[YAWN]

The sad thing is FF is a series that shouldn't need this drivel to sell. Japan really needs to sort this "we NEED at least one sexualised female for this game to sell" way of thinking. Sure, they get a sale from 'that' type of audience, but they also alienate as many as it attracts.

 

[Ledsen]

Because Japan

When Americans don't understand Japanese culture then translates it to poor character design. They got the game first and was made with a Japanese culture mindset so things like this are added in. I wish there was something deeper, but no. You gotta remember, these aren't American characters you are interacting with in the game so we shouldn't expect them to act all Americany. There are no Nathan Drakes to be had here and we shouldn't be looking for them.




That's a perfect example. She's a prototypical Tsundere. Things you wouldn't see in most forms of American entertainment. Although Katniss from Hunger Games could qualify with Gale at times.

Culture is judged from the viewpoint of the receiver. If I think she's a shit character and I don't understand japanese character stereotypes, that doesn't make her a better character.

 

[Zafir]

This is a normal thing for JRPGs as mentioned a few times already, they just went a little overboard this instant.


In xillia everyone outside of 2 specific characters acts like a child, even though the main character is in medical school and all of the other characters his age or younger (sometimes even the youngest was more wise) were just as childish, he's 20 along with 2 of the other characters.


I have accepted this.
I even accepted vanille after understanding the story and fleshing it out in the second and third game.
She grows up pretty damn fast towards the mid-end.

Jude is 15 not 20?

 

[n00bsauce87]

"Gods" as a plot are rather weak, yes. But I think if you go back through your knowledge of FF, it was also the backbone of most FF plots. VI, VIII, X, and XII all relied upon the fact that the human badguy was wrestling power that appeared as a result of these god characters.

So IMO the Fal'cie/Cocoon plotline could have been the backdrop for a perfectly normal FF game... but the motivations of the villain characters, and the hero characters, was totally botched in execution. The actual plotting itself was, as you imply, totally nonsensical and unengaging. The gods stuff is fine as a backstory, but the actual plot points should be far more human and relatable.

Still, I think they had a competent scenario design that might have been a great sandbox for a better writer. I wish they had better writers.

You get a tattoo because the "gods" shat on your life. Basically the plot provided in the game before you start. Even dealing with

Spoiler

Galenth Dysley

was so far and few in between. I can only assume he was the antagonist, but the writers did their best in not giving him any chance in being a villian. Further Proof? Lightining has no counterpart in Dissidia, no one was worthy enough to take that spot. Even SquareEnix couldn't make up a half assed storyline to save that for Dissidia

Culture is judged from the viewpoint of the receiver. If I think she's a shit character and I don't understand japanese character stereotypes, that doesn't make her a better character.

You're right it makes her a character that you don't understand. If I see John Doe from a culture that believes that doing cartwheels every time he has to make a tough decision, I may not like it, but that shouldn't factor if he's a badly made character for doing the same thing 50+ times throughout a gameplay. It's representative of where he's from. In other words, seeing where said character is coming from as opposed to inputting our own ideas and opinions of another person's culture to make judgements.

 

[Milennia]

Jude is 15 not 20?

Damn i mixed him up with milla :/
Still applies as he's in graduate school, even if time is accelerated in the series.
Leia acts like shes 5.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

God one of the most annoying characters i've ever seen, does not beat Hope. Nothing beats hope. NOTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That fucking running animation. >: (

 

[QaaQer]

how could you possibly derive that this ECONOMIC info you provided is a direct result of MISOGYNY?

Use this definition, ymmv obviously:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/9614172/Australian-misogyny-row-leads-to-dictionary-definition-change.html

The editor of the Macquarie Dictionary, Sue Butler, said Ms Gillard used the term to denote someone prejudiced against women – a meaning that will become the second definition in editions from next year. Misogyny, she said, was like sexism but with a "stronger edge to it".

 

[enfieldvball]

Damn i mixed him up with milla :/
Still applies as he's in graduate school, even if time is accelerated in the series.

I still don't understand how he is '15' and ppl are calling him a DOCTOR,.....a friggin DOCTOR!!!!!!

 

[biggersmaller]

The sad thing is FF is a series that shouldn't need this drivel to sell. Japan really needs to sort this "we NEED at least one sexualised female for this game to sell" way of thinking. Sure, they get a sale from 'that' type of audience, but they also alienate as many as it attracts.

I agree to a certain extent, however sexualizing a game doesn't need to rob a character of their common sense and maturity. If Lighting was regularly fucking some character in that game - they could have done it while keeping her "strong" characterization.

Also, sexuality sadly is being define as giggling at the camera paired with orgasm sounds when running and falling,