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[mkenyon]

I actually read that article.

I wasn't referring to the blur effect, more of the input lag and delay that TN monitors suffer from.

There isn't much delay or input lag on TN panels, and the input is still going to be tied to frames rendered. But, from what I understand, a lot of that depends on the firmware and features.

So is it possible to get a monitor with 120Hz, 1440p or better, and Lightboost,

Spoiler

and 3D

all on one monitor?

How long do I have to wait for this?

Yup, ASUS announced one at CES. Coming Q2 for $800.

It has the GSync module built in which is selling for $200.

 

[Chettlar]

There isn't much delay or input lag on TN panels, and the input is still going to be tied to frames rendered. But, from what I understand, a lot of that depends on the firmware and features.

Yup, ASUS announced one at CES. Coming Q2 for $800.

It has the GSync module built in which is selling for $200.

Awesome! Price isn't too terrible either (though I wish it was something more like $600).

It doesn't also have 3D does it?

What's it called?

 

[dgrdsv]

Only if you can strobe the backlight and run them at 120Hz+. They'll still suffer from motion blur due to the sample-and-hold effect.

Read this really rad article on why.

There is no backlight in OLED.

 

[muddream]

Nah. It's 120Hz, but what it does is insert black frames between refreshes to achieve CRT-like motion quality.

So, it is actually changing the image at 240Hz, it's just that half are actual frames, half are black frames inserted by the monitor.

Lightboost and G-Sync's ULMB do something similar. The prior one is inferior compared to the Eizo, the latter is TBD.

Where does Sony's Motionflow fit into this picture? It seems to be the only solution that works well with 60Hz content.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Is there any discernable difference from hooking up a games console to this montior over a television outside of input lag?

 

[ArynCrinn]

Anyone ever find a place to buy a brand new Sony FW900 CRT, let me know, price not a issue.

As for me I use both the Asus monitor and the BenQ 27" 120Hz, and recently bought the 24" BenQ 144Hz. So I'll probably need to look into the Eizo soon.

 

[Stubo]

Awesome! Price isn't too terrible either (though I wish it was something more like $600).

It doesn't also have 3D does it?

What's it called?

ASUS ROG SWIFT PG278Q

 

[Sidewinder]

Sorta off-topic but I need some advice from monitor specialists I could buy a cheapish used XL2420t 120hz screen with dreaded PWM. On Prad.de they write the following about it:

"At 140 cd/m² at the workspace, we measured a rather low switching frequency of just 180 Hz. Since the maximum luminance is not very high, it is not necessary to reduce much and therefore, the duty cycle is fortunately very high at 71 percent. Nonetheless, we cannot exclude the possibility that sensitive users may notice an irritating backlight flicker in this model."

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2012/review-benq-xl2420t-part7.html#Backlight

What does the bolded mean? If I put brightness at 71 percent the backlight switching will be far higher than 180hz and potentially won't be a problem anymore?? Or am I completely wrong? And why is 180hz not enough?

I don't know if I'm prone to PWM but I guess I could be, annecdotal evidence: I can easily spot the difference between 30 and 60fps and I see rainbows everywhere on DLP projected images

 

[King Mac of Furry Frog]

Sadly this doesn't work on my plasma tv. Will have to wait for a proper desktop setup.

 

[Shaneus]

I'm gonna be "that guy", but how is it that there hasn't been a cheap, off-brand Chinese monitor that supports this? The closest i could find was a brand that started with "A", but because of something to do with how it worked, it didn't work with ATI video gards.

I really, really, really want access to this tech... but I don't want to pay ~$500AUD for it :/

 

[Spazznid]

Is there any discernable difference from hooking up a games console to this montior over a television outside of input lag?

Not really, no.

 

[kennah]

I'm seeing tearing on my 120hz CRT. Maybe I have it configured wrong.

 

[Raticus79]

ASUS ROG SWIFT PG278Q

Ah, good, the monitor size was going to be my next question. I have the VG278H and it's been doing fine. Wouldn't want to go for anything smaller, especially with a resolution increase.

I wonder if there's anything preventing doing the same specs in a 50" size or it's just a lack of demand.

 

[mkenyon]

Is there any discernable difference from hooking up a games console to this montior over a television outside of input lag?

Nope.

I'm gonna be "that guy", but how is it that there hasn't been a cheap, off-brand Chinese monitor that supports this? The closest i could find was a brand that started with "A", but because of something to do with how it worked, it didn't work with ATI video gards.

I really, really, really want access to this tech... but I don't want to pay ~$500AUD for it :/

Because to support the lightboost hack, the monitor needs to be 3D capable. Did you check the list of monitors from the OP? Should be able to score one for pretty cheap.

Where does Sony's Motionflow fit into this picture? It seems to be the only solution that works well with 60Hz content.

http://www.blurbusters.com/sony-motionflow-impulse-mode-reduces-motion-blur-without-interpolation/

 

[Chettlar]

ASUS ROG SWIFT PG278Q

Thanks!

Hm...doesn't look like it says 3D or Lightboost anywhere.

 

[Stubo]

Thanks!

Hm...doesn't look like it says 3D or Lightboost anywhere.

You can't use lightboost at the same time as G-Sync, I think?

 

[Water]

You can't use lightboost at the same time as G-Sync, I think?

Not at first, it might become possible later.

But for an enthusiast, both technologies have a purpose anyway. If you can keep a game at a steady high framerate, you can use Lightboost to nearly eliminate motion blur, and you have little use for G-Sync. If you can't achieve those framerates or don't want to sacrifice enough graphics quality to do so, you'll want G-Sync so that things will look smooth.

What remains to be seen is whether the Asus display has a strobing backlight or not.

 

[Chettlar]

Not at first, it might become possible later.

But for an enthusiast, both technologies have a purpose anyway. If you can keep a game at a steady high framerate, you can use Lightboost to nearly eliminate motion blur, and you have little use for G-Sync. If you can't achieve those framerates or don't want to sacrifice enough graphics quality to do so, you'll want G-Sync so that things will look smooth.

What remains to be seen is whether the Asus display has a strobing backlight or not.

Interesting. You say become possible later. I assume that means that it will never be possible on that specific model (and will have to wait for a later one to do both? And are you saying that this model can do Lightboost if I prefer it over G-Sync? As in, can it do either one.

 

[Water]

Interesting. You say become possible later. I assume that means that it will never be possible on that specific model (and will have to wait for a later one to do both?

Nvidia rep said it isn't possible to use both technologies simultaneously for now. It's not clear whether they will be able to add such support in future displays, but on the other hand, it doesn't seem completely impossible to me that an existing model could be updated to support G-Sync+Lightboost via software. The whole concept is about the GPU having a lot of control over the display, so if it has fine-grained enough control, it might just be a matter of updating GPU drivers.

The strobing Lightboost uses is a fundamentally bad idea with low Hz, so my guess is that if an official G-Sync+Lightboost combination feature were to happen, it would apply mild or no Lightboost at 60FPS, and smoothly apply more until reaching full Lightboost at 100FPS or slightly under that. So to see benefit from Lightboost, you'd still have to shoot for 80ish FPS and preferably more, whereas previously you have had to hit 100FPS for smooth visuals at the old Lightboost minimum of 100Hz.

And are you saying that this model can do Lightboost if I prefer it over G-Sync? As in, can it do either one.

I wasn't saying that, however, I now notice Mark Rejhon has posted over at his blog that the display does indeed have Lightboost. So yes, this should be able to do either.

 

[Chettlar]

Nvidia rep said it isn't possible to use both technologies simultaneously for now. It's not clear whether they will be able to add such support in future displays, but on the other hand, it doesn't seem completely impossible to me that an existing model could be updated to support G-Sync+Lightboost via software. The whole concept is about the GPU having a lot of control over the display, so if it has fine-grained enough control, it might just be a matter of updating GPU drivers.

The strobing Lightboost uses is a fundamentally bad idea with low Hz, so my guess is that if an official G-Sync+Lightboost combination feature were to happen, it would apply mild or no Lightboost at 60FPS, and smoothly apply more until reaching full Lightboost at 100FPS or slightly under that. So to see benefit from Lightboost, you'd still have to shoot for 80ish FPS and preferably more, whereas previously you have had to hit 100FPS for smooth visuals at the old Lightboost minimum of 100Hz.
I wasn't saying that, however, I now notice Mark Rejhon has posted over at his blog that the display does indeed have Lightboost. So yes, this should be able to do either.

Awesome! You have been most helpful.

 

[michaelius]

Not at first, it might become possible later.

But for an enthusiast, both technologies have a purpose anyway. If you can keep a game at a steady high framerate, you can use Lightboost to nearly eliminate motion blur, and you have little use for G-Sync. If you can't achieve those framerates or don't want to sacrifice enough graphics quality to do so, you'll want G-Sync so that things will look smooth.

What remains to be seen is whether the Asus display has a strobing backlight or not.

Would be nice if they clarified if it will be possible in the monitors from first wave or will we need upgraded models.

 

[ScepticMatt]

Not at first, it might become possible later.

Interesting. You say become possible later.

The strobing Lightboost uses is a fundamentally bad idea with low Hz, so my guess is that if an official G-Sync+Lightboost combination feature were to happen, it would apply mild or no Lightboost at 60FPS, and smoothly apply more until reaching full Lightboost at 100FPS or slightly under that. So to see benefit from Lightboost, you'd still have to shoot for 80ish FPS and preferably more, whereas previously you have had to hit 100FPS for smooth visuals at the old Lightboost minimum of 100Hz.

Water gets it partly right

One issue with low persistence is flicker. Remember old 50/60Hz CRTs? Personally I get migraines with anything below 100Hz. Therefore active 3D glasses are unacceptable for me, even with it's longer persistence. The virtual reality guys from Oculus and Valve don't recommend low persistence below 85Hz for this reason.

The issue Water didn't consider is strobing, or varying light output. Think "Dreaded PWM" mentioned above, but much worse. Say you have 5ms persistence, that would give you 42.5% duty cycle ("light on time") at 85Hz and 60% at 120Hz. One way to fix this would be to buffer one frame and vary the persistence time in advance to keep the duty cycle constant, e.g. 5.8ms at 85Hz and 4.1 ms at 120Hz. Frame rate drops would have to re-flash the same frame multiple times to keep flicker in check, just like G-sync does it the frame rate falls below 30Hz.

As this adds lag, it might not be worth the trade off.

 

[Tommyhawk]

Since I'm planing on buying one of those nifty looking Gsync/120Hz monitors, I need some advice from my fellow GAFers.

I can't decide if I should buy a 27" 1440p (like the one from Asus) or a 24" or 27" 1080p display. My PC is running atm with a 660 Ti but I'll get one of those 20 nm Nvidia cards when they're available (but nothing too fancy, something like a 870).
Do you think that I'll be able to run my games with a new card at 1440p on high settings, or is it just too taxing for a single card?

If that's the case, should I buy a 24" or 27" 1080p display?
I heard that there is some IQ loss on the 27" 1080p displays due to the increased size but not increased resolution. Is this something that is very pronounced and noticeable?

 

[Durante]

There are a few things to consider:
- How long are you planning to keep the monitor? (Over multiple GPU upgrades?)
- Are you going to use it exclusively for gaming or also work/productivity? (For the latter more pixels are always better)

Generally, I'd suggest to not even consider a 27" 1080p panel. An, if you are planning to upgrade to a 870 as you say, I really think you should be fine with 1440p in games.

 

[michaelius]

I don't see 1440p 120 fps to be possible on single card - even on next gen cards.

 

[Durante]

I don't see 1440p 120 fps to be possible on single card - even on next gen cards.

No, certainly not at all games and all settings. But, particularly on a G-sync 120Hz display, you don't need to maintain 120 FPS.

 

[michaelius]

No, certainly not at all games and all settings. But, particularly on a G-sync 120Hz display, you don't need to maintain 120 FPS.

Well yeah but if I'm paying 800$ for TN panel 27" display then I'd rather run games in 90-100 fps range at least to use it

 

[Tommyhawk]

There are a few things to consider:
- How long are you planning to keep the monitor? (Over multiple GPU upgrades?)
- Are you going to use it exclusively for gaming or also work/productivity? (For the latter more pixels are always better)

Generally, I'd suggest to not even consider a 27" 1080p panel. An, if you are planning to upgrade to a 870 as you say, I really think you should be fine with 1440p in games.

Thanks for the answer!

I tend to keep them for a long time (I have an old ass Samsung TFT atm) and I only use them for gaming.
Sounds like I should really aim for a 1440p since it will be, as I said, an long term investment.
How are the chances that we see an 27" 1440p display with a IPS panel?
Because the TN panel on the Asus is a bit of a bummer. :/

I don't see 1440p 120 fps to be possible on single card - even on next gen cards.

Shouldn't be much of a problem with Gsync, as Durante said already.

 

[mkenyon]

I don't see 1440p 120 fps to be possible on single card - even on next gen cards.

Not every game is crysis, nor do you need to crank every option up. I'll always take a hit graphically to get to 8.3ms frame times.

Dota 2, CS:GO, CoD, likely Titanfall, Planrtside 2 are all able to get to 8.3ms at 1440p with even a 7970.

I'll be getting one with a 790 to replace my 7970 though. Ought to do it.

Shouldn't be much of a problem with Gsync, as Durante said already.

Though true, ULMB at 120Hz is a superior option to the variable frame rate. It's the main reason I'm interested in G-Sync.

 

[Chettlar]

Water gets it partly right

One issue with low persistence is flicker. Remember old 50/60Hz CRTs? Personally I get migraines with anything below 100Hz. Therefore active 3D glasses are unacceptable for me, even with it's longer persistence. The virtual reality guys from Oculus and Valve don't recommend low persistence below 85Hz for this reason.

The issue Water didn't consider is strobing, or varying light output. Think "Dreaded PWM" mentioned above, but much worse. Say you have 5ms persistence, that would give you 42.5% duty cycle ("light on time") at 85Hz and 60% at 120Hz. One way to fix this would be to buffer one frame and vary the persistence time in advance to keep the duty cycle constant, e.g. 5.8ms at 85Hz and 4.1 ms at 120Hz. Frame rate drops would have to re-flash the same frame multiple times to keep flicker in check, just like G-sync does it the frame rate falls below 30Hz.

As this adds lag, it might not be worth the trade off.

I'm mainly asking if I can get lightboost and if there would be a reason I would want it over G-Sync.

I'm not the geekiest Monitor dude, so what are you saying I should go for. Even 60fps often can look blury to me, so the thought of lightboost helping to eliminate that even more is very appealing.

 

[Ghazi]

So, I know this isn't a 144hz monitor and it's extremely old, but we have two of these 2008 Opitquest q201wb monitors lying around the house, unused. Their inputs are VGA, so I'd have to buy a special cable for it, but how adequate would they be for gaming? Obviously they're meant to be used with computers, but I kinda want to play on smaller monitor for fighting games and DMC/Bayonetta while not having to drop $200+ to do so. I usually play on a 42" TV, and it kinda sucks for them, after experiencing smaller screens at the local arcade I'd really love to get into a smaller monitor. Basically, I'd like to know if I'll be facing any input delay or lag problems.

If they aren't great, then I guess I'll just wait a while and save up for that ASUS monitor in the OP.

 

[Hazaro]

So, I know this isn't a 144hz monitor and it's extremely old, but we have two of these 2008 Opitquest q201wb monitors lying around the house, unused. Their inputs are VGA, so I'd have to buy a special cable for it, but how adequate would they be for gaming? Obviously they're meant to be used with computers, but I kinda want to play on smaller monitor for fighting games and DMC/Bayonetta while not having to drop $200+ to do so. I usually play on a 42" TV, and it kinda sucks for them, after experiencing smaller screens at the local arcade I'd really love to get into a smaller monitor. Basically, I'd like to know if I'll be facing any input delay or lag problems.

If they aren't great, then I guess I'll just wait a while and save up for that ASUS monitor in the OP.

Just hook them up and see if you have any trouble landing combos. If you aren't playing fighting games with tight timings I wouldn't sweat it too much. If you can tell obviously that's not good.

Shouldn't be worse than slower TVs.

 

[Ghazi]

Just hook them up and see if you have any trouble landing combos. If you aren't playing fighting games with tight timings I wouldn't sweat it too much. If you can tell obviously that's not good.

Shouldn't be worse than slower TVs.

I am hoping to soon, I ordered the cables off Amazon a little bit after that post. Just wanted to see if anyone had an opinion before the cords arrived.

I hope it works well.

 

[fiore]

I don't see 1440p 120 fps to be possible on single card - even on next gen cards.

Dota 2. I play it 1440p and 120hz with one 670gtx

 

[Rizific]

Amazon just put the Asus VG278HE 144hz monitor on sale for $373. someone tell me not to impluse buy =(

 

[SapientWolf]

Amazon just put the Asus VG278HE 144hz monitor on sale for $373. someone tell me not to impluse buy =(

I'd wait it out for Gsync support if you're on the green team.

 

[Broadbandito]

anyone with the ASUS VG248QE have any amazing color settings to share?

 

[Rizific]

I'd wait it out for Gsync support if you're on the green team.

yeah im team red as of right now. but i just checked newegg and its $380 there. maybe not much of a deal. i think ill wait it out a bit longer.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

So I considered the input of the OP and after 2-3 months, finally got a VG248QE.

I have to say.....

on my knees.....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy fucking SHIT the difference is night and day! I'm never gaming on 60Hz ever again! (Until I have to play BL2 with the gf on the ps3) 60FPS is garbage. Fucking GARBAGE! The smoothness, the clarity in rapid movement in online shooters, my......MY GOD!! MY EYES CAME BUCKETS!!!!!!

Up until now I used AMD's LCD Overdrive on an LED 60Hz and hobbled along in gaming. Now..... now I don't need to live like that anymore.

Again, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

Fucking love GAF. Fucking love PC Gaming. So..soo..sooo good.

 

[Shaneus]

Does that monitor support the anti-blur strobing thingy? I forget the technical name :/

 

[IchigoSharingan]

why yes it does, I believe. I think it's called lightboost. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

The app is called Strobelight.

 

[mkenyon]

So I considered the input of the OP and after 2-3 months, finally got a VG248QE.

I have to say.....

on my knees.....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy fucking SHIT the difference is night and day! I'm never gaming on 60Hz ever again! (Until I have to play BL2 with the gf on the ps3) 60FPS is garbage. Fucking GARBAGE! The smoothness, the clarity in rapid movement in online shooters, my......MY GOD!! MY EYES CAME BUCKETS!!!!!!

Up until now I used AMD's LCD Overdrive on an LED 60Hz and hobbled along in gaming. Now..... now I don't need to live like that anymore.

Again, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

Fucking love GAF. Fucking love PC Gaming. So..soo..sooo good.

This post is the best.

 

[Rizific]

So I considered the input of the OP and after 2-3 months, finally got a VG248QE.

I have to say.....

on my knees.....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy fucking SHIT the difference is night and day! I'm never gaming on 60Hz ever again! (Until I have to play BL2 with the gf on the ps3) 60FPS is garbage. Fucking GARBAGE! The smoothness, the clarity in rapid movement in online shooters, my......MY GOD!! MY EYES CAME BUCKETS!!!!!!

Up until now I used AMD's LCD Overdrive on an LED 60Hz and hobbled along in gaming. Now..... now I don't need to live like that anymore.

Again, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

Fucking love GAF. Fucking love PC Gaming. So..soo..sooo good.

thats it. im committing. 120hz/144hz will be mine come tax return. now its a choice of 24" or 27"...i have a 27" right now and dont really want to come down, but a 24" is only $100 cheaper. im thinking those extra 3" are worth the extra coin.

 

[gamma]

So I considered the input of the OP and after 2-3 months, finally got a VG248QE.

I have to say.....

on my knees.....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy fucking SHIT the difference is night and day! I'm never gaming on 60Hz ever again! (Until I have to play BL2 with the gf on the ps3) 60FPS is garbage. Fucking GARBAGE! The smoothness, the clarity in rapid movement in online shooters, my......MY GOD!! MY EYES CAME BUCKETS!!!!!!

Up until now I used AMD's LCD Overdrive on an LED 60Hz and hobbled along in gaming. Now..... now I don't need to live like that anymore.

Again, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

Fucking love GAF. Fucking love PC Gaming. So..soo..sooo good.

It can't be that big of a difference, can it? Fuck.

Spoiler

mah wallet am cry

 

[FoxSpirit]

If 24" and money, get the Eizo. The contrast is another layer of clarity.

Also, getting 120fps in Chivalry is hard....

 

[mkenyon]

Also, getting 120fps in Chivalry is hard....

With all UE3 games, you need to edit the config.ini file.

"bSmoothFrameRate=TRUE"

and set "MaxSmoothedFrameRate" to 120.

You also need a(n intel) processor clocked to the nines. UE3 loves them speedy cores, especially in MP.

thats it. im committing. 120hz/144hz will be mine come tax return. now its a choice of 24" or 27"...i have a 27" right now and dont really want to come down, but a 24" is only $100 cheaper. im thinking those extra 3" are worth the extra coin.

Per the OP, that QNIX monitor isn't guaranteed to run at 120Hz, and has a chance of looking funky. Right now, the only 1440p 120hz monitor that's looking decent is the $800 ASUS G-Sync monitor coming next quarter. I only put the QNIX in the OP for the IPS snobs (yeah that's right) who just can't get over their logical barrier that TN panels look nice.

IMO, right now, if on a budget or want G-Sync, you want the VG248QE.

If there's no budget and G-Sync isn't that important, the Eizo is the one to get.

 

[Chettlar]

So I considered the input of the OP and after 2-3 months, finally got a VG248QE.

I have to say.....

on my knees.....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy fucking SHIT the difference is night and day! I'm never gaming on 60Hz ever again! (Until I have to play BL2 with the gf on the ps3) 60FPS is garbage. Fucking GARBAGE! The smoothness, the clarity in rapid movement in online shooters, my......MY GOD!! MY EYES CAME BUCKETS!!!!!!

Up until now I used AMD's LCD Overdrive on an LED 60Hz and hobbled along in gaming. Now..... now I don't need to live like that anymore.

Again, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

Fucking love GAF. Fucking love PC Gaming. So..soo..sooo good.

Now if only they can get a monitor is IPS, that does this, and is 1440p or even 2160p at 27"

edit, and oh my word that is a cheap monitor at 144hz! TN panel, but maybe it's worth it.

 

[Durante]

I only put the QNIX in the OP for the IPS snobs (yeah that's right) who just can't get over their logical barrier that TN panels look nice.

Because they don't

 

[mkenyon]

I'll give you this, RPGs are definitely in the realm of "plays better on high res IPS panel".

But outside of that, or even in heavy action RPGs like Mount and Blade or some such thing, give me that reliable 120Hz all day every day.

Plus there's always the Eizo. Not 1440p, but glorious colors at least.

 

[copelandmaster]

So I considered the input of the OP and after 2-3 months, finally got a VG248QE.

1. You should really install the lightboost hack.

2. You should try 4k down sampling.

Here are your 4k downsampling settings.

Alter your Front porch and Synch width as needed (mine used to be 60, 30, but newer drivers put a stop to that)