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[Surfinn]

She has been staying true to who she is. She's generally always had remorse for killing people. She's felt like complete shit since she must have had the talk with Rick where he told her that the little boy she tried to toughen up with tough love got himself, his brother, and his mother killed on top of Rick's son losing an eye. She feels responsible partly responsible since her cold love turned out to be a total fuck up. Even someone completely disgusting like the Wolf showed to be a human being by sacrificing himself to save the doc, which she didn't think it was possible.

Now she doesn't think like Morgan 2.0, but she certainly sees that there has to be some middle point. And for someone who shows remorse, it also makes sense that that shit builds and wears her down. Some of you just want a super badass. She doesn't need to be female Rick, even though we know Rick is going to dial it back at some point once again since he fluctuates after certain events.. which again is something a human being would do. It's not like she didn't kill anyone. She shot someone in the face who wasn't looking at her once Maggie and her child were in trouble, shoved someone through metal only to have her face eaten while she's alive and burned several people alive. So it's not like she's not doing badass-Coral things, but that all the killing is catching up with her, which doesn't seem unreasonable or unrealistic.

Some of you are just complaining for either things not being spelled out or wanting her to be someone else.

It's more than that, though. It's about her sudden inability to survive and put others at risk, which has NEVER been a part of her character. Anyone with eyes could see that the red haired woman was trying to get close enough to attack her from melee range, and she did just that. Carol should be bitten or killed right now, and Maggie too, for her utter incompetence. That doesn't fit into her character. You can be remorseful and not sacrifice all the survival skills you've built up over the course of six seasons. It's impossible to defend the idea of Carol's complete inability to kill someone to save her own life and Maggie's. I can understand hesitance to murder someone in cold blood (on offence, not defense), but the was NOT the case.

Complete irony in the last sentence of your post.

 

[Lorcain]

I like that the show is making the audience think about the morality, or goodness, of Rick's group this season. They're on a dark path right now. Proactive murder is a line they haven't crossed before (that I can remember). It seems like the Negan group is bad, but we don't know for sure. Based on what the smoker lady said the Negan biker squad may have been bluffing and acting up the part (they bluffed the wrong people).

Rick and his group acted as death squad mercenaries for Hilltop this episode. What if the mayor of Hilltop and Jesus end up being bad guys? Or what if they were a splintered off faction of Negan?

I think it would be really interesting if Negan turns out to be a hardass, but not evil. And Rick and company realize after the fact that they straight up murdered people.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

There was some fucking fantastic foreshadowing in this last episode. Like masterfully done.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

It's more than that, though. It's about her sudden inability to survive and put others at risk, which has NEVER been a part of her character. Anyone with eyes could see that the red haired woman was trying to get close enough to attack her from melee range, and she did just that. Carol should be bitten or killed right now, and Maggie too, for her utter incompetence. That doesn't fit into her character. You can be remorseful and not sacrifice all the survival skills you've built up over the course of six seasons. It's impossible to defend the idea of Carol's complete inability to kill someone to save her own life and Maggie's. I can understand hesitance to murder someone in cold blood (on offence, not defense), but the was NOT the case.

Complete irony in the last sentence of your post.

Err she was pleading with her to stop, and she kept going. But when she put her hands on Carol, she got stabbed and eaten alive. She left it a little too close but got the job done regardless at the end. You're just trying to make something big out of something incredibly small. The idea that she's a bit shook after what happened to Sam is apparently difficult for you guys to get.

 

[schlongdog]

There going to ruin Carol aren't they?

 

[Betty]

There going to ruin Carol aren't they?

Compared to how on point and effective she was when the Wolves attacked, it's possible.

I mean she's gone from a person who casually shot and killed a tied up person in Alexandria to someone who has 'trouble' killing a small group that talk to her like shit and would have easily killed her and Maggie if given the chance.

 

[More_Badass]

Compared to how on point and effective she was when the Wolves attacked, it's possible.

I mean she's gone from a person who casually shot and killed a tied up person in Alexandria to someone who has 'trouble' killing a small group that talk to her like shit and would have easily killed her and Maggie if given the chance.

She was conflicted, but it was more an inward conflict about herself, not towards the Saviors. She was brutally efficient when she needed to be, between escaping the moment she had a chance, the zero-hesitation headshot, and lighting the room on fire.

People are acting like she went Terminator to hiding in a corner and not killing anyone

 

[RiderKairuu]

I think regardless of how much of a machine we think Carol is, you never know what effect all this had on her mentally. She seems like one of the few characters that has some depth to her. The downtime she's had in Alexandria seems to have taken its toll.

 

[mattiewheels]

It's more than that, though. It's about her sudden inability to survive and put others at risk, which has NEVER been a part of her character. Anyone with eyes could see that the red haired woman was trying to get close enough to attack her from melee range, and she did just that. Carol should be bitten or killed right now, and Maggie too, for her utter incompetence. That doesn't fit into her character. You can be remorseful and not sacrifice all the survival skills you've built up over the course of six seasons. It's impossible to defend the idea of Carol's complete inability to kill someone to save her own life and Maggie's. I can understand hesitance to murder someone in cold blood (on offence, not defense), but the was NOT the case.

Complete irony in the last sentence of your post.

You've got a point there, Carol freezing up like that was probably the most left-field thing about her in the episode. But they've been building this case that she's full of conflict for a lot longer than this episode, it's just been pretty subtle and slowly compounding.

 

[Surfinn]

Err she was pleading with her to stop, and she kept going. But when she put her hands on Carol, she got stabbed and eaten alive. She left it a little too close but got the job done regardless at the end. You're just trying to make something big out of something incredibly small. The idea that she's a bit shook after what happened to Sam is apparently difficult for you guys to get.

She was conflicted, but it was more an inward conflict about herself, not towards the Saviors. She was brutally efficient when she needed to be, between escaping the moment she had a chance, the zero-hesitation headshot, and lighting the room on fire.

People are acting like she hid in a corner and didn't kill anyone

She got lucky and almost died and got Maggie killed for her hesitance and incompetence. You really think that's not a big deal in regard to her character and general decision making? It was a small part of the episode, but coupled with other questionable moments, had a huge impact on where she stands as a survivor.

There's nothing difficult to get, it's just poor writing.

You've got a point there, Carol freezing up like that was probably the most left-field thing about her in the episode. But they've been building this case that she's full of conflict for a lot longer than this episode, it's just been pretty subtle and slowly compounding.

Right and I don't mind if the build in that direction, but transitioning from a calculated killer whose saved the entire group on multiple occasions to "I can't bear to kill my ruthless captor to save my own life and my friends" is weak writing, no matter which way it's cut.

 

[The Artisan]

Out of all the things Carol has done, Sam's death should be the least weight on her shoulders. That kid was DOA whether or not Carol ever talked to him. If anyone is to blame it's Sam's mother and her coddling. Carol just gave him a nudge off the ledge.

I don't know about all that. The dead-look-in-the-eye threat with tying him to a tree outside the walls where he gets eaten and will scream and no one could hear him, clearly caused him some mental trauma. As, he drew fucking pictures of it, and then the words themselves flashed back into his head as the night fell and he was walking amongst them.

 

[hey_monkey]

She was conflicted, but it was more an inward conflict about herself, not towards the Saviors. She was brutally efficient when she needed to be, between escaping the moment she had a chance, the zero-hesitation headshot, and lighting the room on fire.

People are acting like she went Terminator to hiding in a corner and not killing anyone

Right? She did what she needed to do. She just doesn't want to need to do it. She wants another way. Honestly, I think that's pretty reasonable after straight killing a couple dozen people and having some time to ruminate on it. She's looking for a way to separate herself from the zombies. I mean, they had a whole conversation about that.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

She got lucky and almost died and got Maggie killed for her hesitance and incompetence. You really think that's not a big deal in regard to her character and general decision making? It was a small part of the episode, but coupled with other questionable moments, had a huge impact on where she stands as a survivor.

There's nothing difficult to get, it's just poor writing.

What other questionable moment?

No it isn't. This magical idea that characters always make perfect decisions and don't let things get to them is absurd. She didn't raise her daughter for this world and make her tough, and she died. She couldn't help the other two daughters that both ended up dying. She tried the other route and be tough on Sam and it played a role in his entire family and Karl dying. That over the last few weeks or months fucked with her mind making her indecisive but still capable of getting the job done right at the end of it all. That's not poor writing, and it's perfectly in line with what could happen to someone like Carol. I would buy it with this not happening as well, but either or works.

Right and I don't mind if the build in that direction, but transitioning from a calculated killer whose saved the entire group on multiple occasions to "I can't bear to kill my ruthless captor to save my own life and my friends" is weak writing, no matter which way it's cut.

She's always had issues with killing people ffs, what don't you get out it? Ruthless captor could have easily killed her or Maggie before it went the route that it did, at least one of them. And she did kill her captor at the end, shoving her through a metal object and letting her get eaten in the face alive.

 

[Surfinn]

What other questionable moment?

No it isn't. This magical idea that characters always make perfect decisions and don't let things get to them is absurd. She didn't raise her daughter for this world and make her tough, and she died. She couldn't help the other two daughters that both ended up dying. She tried the other route and be tough on Sam and it played a role in his entire family and Karl dying. That over the last few weeks or months fucked with her mind making her indecisive but still capable of getting the job done right at the end of it all. That's not poor writing, and it's perfectly in line with what could happen to someone like Carol. I would buy it with this not happening as well, but either or works.


She's always had issues with killing people ffs, what don't you get out it? Ruthless captor could have easily killed her or Maggie before it went the route that it did, at least one of them. And she did kill her captor at the end, shoving her through a metal object and letting her get eaten in the face alive.

Show me one time, ONE since she started developing into a hardened survivor where she's put herself into danger because of inaction or "freezing" (i.e. allowing her captor into arms reach of her, putting her own life in danger). It doesn't fit in with her character, regardless of what she's feeling. She's always been able to get the job done without hesitation, especially when on the defensive end. Like I said, feeling remorse and regret is human and SHOULD be explored for her character, but her inability to do what is necessary to survive works against the progression she has made (yeah, she survived, but BARELY and only after taking a totally unnecessary risk). Again, using the time skip as leverage is bad writing (but so much time has passed and we just didn't see it).

What other questionable moments? Maybe when she was sobbing and cowering in the corner as her captor tormented her with threats of death? Or how she held onto the rosery at the end of the episode, suggesting much of what she showed in the beginning of the episode wasn't actually an act? The only reasonably emotional moment for her was trapping and burning people alive, which would make anyone's stomach churn.

This is basic contradictory character development. They missed a golden opportunity to explore her emotions through her decision to manipulatively torment Sam and inadvertently killing him.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I'm usually pretty hard on the show when it goes into stupid territory to advance plots (or to not advance anything and have the plot stay in a holding pattern because of "reasons").

This episode? I thought it was great, I don't see why people think Carol is getting character assassinated when it's pretty clear she's starting to be bogged down from all the things she has done as well as her own inner demons of who she is becoming. From the last episode she clearly doesn't like who she has become in this world and wants to prevent Maggie from becoming just like her, it wasn't just because of the baby. It probably didn't help that she was partly responsible for the kid freaking the fuck out and getting himself killed as well as his mom.

She had a moment of weakness if you want to call it that, but at least it's been hinted at last episode so it wasn't just a heal turn in this one, her momentarily freezing up obviously was designed to create a tense situation at the end of the episode, but I think they did enough build up and suspense of "is she just acting to get the edge on them, or is she actually starting to crack up a bit" to warrant that moment where she fucks up.

 

[Surfinn]

her momentarily freezing up obviously was designed to create a tense situation at the end of the episode

And this is the poor writing I'm talking about. It was clearly directed for dramatic purposes and looked absolutely silly. The show's had lots of problems with this in the past, too. For example, when Carol tripped while running from a pack of zombies. Carol? Tripped? Really?

 

[More_Badass]

Show me one time, ONE since she started developing into a hardened survivor where she's put herself into danger because of inaction (i.e. allowing her captor into arms reach of her, putting her own life in danger). It doesn't fit in with her character, regardless of what she's feeling. She's always been able to get the job done without hesitation, especially when on the defensive end. Like I said, feeling remorse and regret is human and SHOULD be explored for her character, but her inability to do what is necessary to survive works against the progression she has made
What other questionable moments? Maybe when she was sobbing and cowering in the corner as her captor tormented her with threats of death? Or how she held onto the rosery at the end of the episode, suggesting much of what she showed in the beginning of the episode wasn't actually an act? The only reasonably emotional moment for her was trapping and burning people alive, which would make anyone's stomach churn.

Seriously? She killed everyone else. It was clearly that single person that affected her because Paula reminded Carol of herself.

And the sobbing and crying part was her chameleon act. The rosary beads were a means to the end at that time, although by the end, they had more value

Right? She did what she needed to do. She just doesn't want to need to do it. She wants another way. Honestly, I think that's pretty reasonable after straight killing a couple dozen people and having some time to ruminate on it. She's looking for a way to separate herself from the zombies. I mean, they had a whole conversation about that.

Once you got to double digits, that's like serial killer territory. And a lot of those were brutal close-up melee kills. I was listening to Hardcore History, and he was talking about the Romans vs Carthage, and how fucked up and terrifying it must have been to have kill dozens of people for hours on the battlefield, blood and guts, hacking your enemies to pieces, Far removed from the distant drone strikes of today.

You have to imagine that thinking back on everything she's done, how brutal she's become, how she can do these things so easily, has to be scary for a person. That's an emotional weight. They're like soldiers, and you have to imagine there's some kind of mental trauma when they're back to normalcy, and she can think in the peace and quiet of her bed, removed from the constant struggle and tension of the road, relive those events and actions over in her head

I guess if people want emotionless terminator Carol, I guess she's ruined, sure.

But I'd say it's a natural progression for her character. And she never just "causally" killed people. Even back in Season 4, she felt remorse and guilt for killing Karen and David and was emotional while killing Lizzie. In Season 5 premiere, the "You could have been one of us" talk tied into that, that this world was molding the survivors. Season 6, she was emotionally affected after the Wolf attack. And so on

Being "able to get the job done without hesitation" IS the scary part for her. She doesn't want to be able to kill so easily

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

And this is the poor writing I'm talking about. It was clearly directed for dramatic purposes and looked absolutely silly. The show's had lots of problems with this in the past, too. For example, when Carol tripped while running from a pack of zombies. Carol? Tripped? Really?

yes, but as I said before there was more than enough before that moment to warrant it. She didn't freeze out of left field, we had an episode and a half of her showing some internal issues.

 

[Alpende]

If not for Darryl's bazooka antics, the Saviors would have arrived in Alexandria already. Rick made it clear a couple of episodes back what his justification for wanting to strike first was.

COMIC/SHOW SPOILERS:

Regarding the comic spoiler; I know, I've read them . Can't wait to see what Negan does.

 

[Sadist]

Agree with More_Badass here; Can't add anything more to this really. I'm still confused about why some posts are yelling "welp Carol is ruined because she shows actual emotions which interferes with her current state of mind". It's nothing like that at all.

You know I was thinking, about Carol in the past few seasons (and remembering she was interested in Tobin) did she have any other romantic interests in the series for the past couple of seasons? She didn't right?

I like that a lot in the series. In the comic book she's absolutely dreadful regarding romantic issues.

 

[TRios Zen]

After this episode, I love Carol more now than I ever did; her feeling the gravitas of her actions makes her much more real and deserving of moving Alexandria forward (which means she's dead soon, right?).

At the current rate at which Rick is progressing towards "Governer-ness" it's getting harder and harder to see him as the hero. He needs to move off the "kill everything all the time" stance as currently he is the yang to Morgan's ying.

What they really need is a leader that sits between the two while understanding the tough decisions you have to make in that world.

 

[Sendero]

You know I was thinking, about Carol in the past few seasons (and remembering she was interested in Tobin) did she have any other romantic interests in the series for the past couple of seasons? She didn't right?

In early seasons, she stopped Daryl for leaving the group, with something like "I can't lose you too!".
We all assumed that would evolve into a romantic interest. But apparently, wasn't the case.

She has been the most developed of all the characters, sans Rick (and in my opinion, in a better way). So, the idea that Carol should remain an awesome (but ultimately boring) terminator for the rest of the series, just don't go well with me.

 

[Paganmoon]

Paula was god damn cool though.

Nitpick about, well most TV shows really. Father Gabriel, kills one guy, and suddenly he busts into rooms all Navy Seals like... like people become masters at their weapons in no time and get group tactics and all?

 

[More_Badass]

Paula was god damn cool though.

Nitpick about, well most TV shows really. Father Gabriel, kills one guy, and suddenly he busts into rooms all Navy Seals like... like people become masters at their weapons in no time and get group tactics and all?

Two months of training, I guess

 

[Sadist]

Paula was god damn cool though.

Nitpick about, well most TV shows really. Father Gabriel, kills one guy, and suddenly he busts into rooms all Navy Seals like... like people become masters at their weapons in no time and get group tactics and all?

The lord works in mysterious ways.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

This was one of the best episode of the whole show so far. It was brilliantly shot and perfectly executed. I was at a loss of words by the end of the episode. I still find it hard to believe that I was feeling this way for The Walking Dead out of all place.

 

[RoslindaleOne]

I don't like what is happening with Carol. These hesitations could get her or someone killed. The whole time watching that episode I thought they were going to have her killed. Maybe they're still building up to it. I hope not. She's badass.

 

[HeartlessNobody213]

Damn people are really going crazy about Carol after this latest episode. Didn't seem all that strange to me after the episode before this one.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

I don't like what is happening with Carol. These hesitations could get her or someone killed. The whole time watching that episode I thought they were going to have her killed. Maybe they're still building up to it. I hope not. She's badass.

I think they're trying to convey that she isn't a machine. Carol has taken the initiative to kill people many many times, but that doesn't mean you don't feel bad about it even if it was justified. They went out of their way to kill these people, basically as contracted killers. Yeah, maybe The Saviors would have found them sooner or later but they signed up to be assassins. I think the whole thing even made Rick sit back for a moment last episode.

 

[More_Badass]

Damn people are really going crazy about Carol after this latest episode. Didn't seem all that strange to me after the episode before this one.

I wonder if it's the same kind of mindset that revolves around Breaking Bad. Seeing a character as this cool badass because he/she's the protagonist, and not really seeing much else. It's clear people want Carol to be this ruthless killing machine who can do these things without hesitation and not change because that's so exciting and cool to watch...but she's not a robot

She can still do those things but the fact that she can is affecting her mentally and emotionally.

 

[RoslindaleOne]

I think they're trying to convey that she isn't a machine. Carol has taken the initiative to kill people many many times, but that doesn't mean you don't feel bad about it even if it was justified. They went out of their way to kill these people, basically as contracted killers. Yeah, maybe The Saviors would have found them sooner or later but they signed up to be assassins. I think the whole thing even made Rick sit back for a moment last episode.

Good point on Carol. She still has to have some humanity in her.

 

[More_Badass]

I think the whole thing even made Rick sit back for a moment last episode.

Looks like it took a moment for him to accept and prepare himself for what he was about to do

 

[RoslindaleOne]

Looks like it took a moment for him to accept and prepare himself for what he was about to do

Those were hard to watch, especially in Glen's scene.

EDIT: First time in the series I felt ill watching the living get killed.

 

[Kinyou]

She was conflicted, but it was more an inward conflict about herself, not towards the Saviors. She was brutally efficient when she needed to be, between escaping the moment she had a chance, the zero-hesitation headshot, and lighting the room on fire.

People are acting like she went Terminator to hiding in a corner and not killing anyone

I thought it was a bit weird when she didn't jump right in to help while Maggie was almost stabbed.

Edit: looking at that scene again it seems more like she wasn't hesitating but just thought Maggie would handle it. The knife appears rather surprisingly and she steps in right after.

 

[Theanine3D]

Looks like it took a moment for him to accept and prepare himself for what he was about to do

Right before he finally rams it in, his eyes quickly look away, as if he can't bear to see what he's doing. Andrew Lincoln was brilliant here.

I really don't think Rick enjoys killing as much as some think he does. He basically kills out of what he sees as necessity (whether or not it actually is is up to interpretation), not out of pleasure. IMO the only time he blatantly killed for pleasure were Pete and Gareth, and both of them had it coming.

 

[hey_monkey]

I don't think Rick enjoys it at all. However, it seems he doesn't think it through as much as he did even before the Terminus dudes. Maybe that's a defense mechanism, I don't know, but it's a problem.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

you have to remember though that the war is inevitable. Only difference is saviours would have much more people and an armory if rick did nothing. When Negan finds alexandria he will do the same thing to it as hilltop or worse (probably worse considering how great alexandria is), and Rick would never stand for it. If even one person is threatened he is willing to go to war to save that person. That's been shown time and time again.

Rick jumped into something he knew very little about out of a sense of arrogance and desperation, and it will absolutely cost him. Not through some direct loss to himself but rather to the people around him.

Also, dehumanising the enemy is a coping mechanism that can eat away at good people until there is very little left. The Wolves are an example of this. Rick justifies his actions and through doing so becomes indifferent to the slaughter of human life, even the audience members watching have become so accustomed to it all that they look at any reluctance to do it as a pathetic weakness. Instead they show glee at Rick and friends going on killing rampages and knifing people in their sleep.

It is honestly kind of disturbing.

 

[schlongdog]

Rick jumped into something he knew very little about out of a sense of arrogance and desperation, and it will absolutely cost him. Not through some direct loss to himself but rather to the people around him.

Also, dehumanising the enemy is a coping mechanism that can eat away at good people until there is very little left. The Wolves are an example of this. Rick justifies his actions and through doing so becomes indifferent to the slaughter of human life, even the audience members watching have become so accustomed to it all that they look at any reluctance to do it as a pathetic weakness. Instead they show glee at Rick and friends going on killing rampages and knifing people in their sleep.

It is honestly kind of disturbing.

Well, people that have polaroids of smashed-heads on their walls

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Rick jumped into something he knew very little about out of a sense of arrogance and desperation, and it will absolutely cost him. Not through some direct loss to himself but rather to the people around him.

Also, dehumanising the enemy is a coping mechanism that can eat away at good people until there is very little left. The Wolves are an example of this. Rick justifies his actions and through doing so becomes indifferent to the slaughter of human life, even the audience members watching have become so accustomed to it all that they look at any reluctance to do it as a pathetic weakness. Instead they show glee at Rick and friends going on killing rampages and knifing people in their sleep.

It is honestly kind of disturbing.

there's no doubt that both sides will lose something but I'm just saying, the higher risk would have been doing nothing. Given that, it wasn't a bad choice. There is all the evidence in the world that if the saviours found alexandria they'd be fucked.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Well, people that have polaroids of smashed-heads on their walls

Again, it doesn't matter what they do. Dehumanising the enemy (well, they do this or that so _____ is just fine because they are lesser people) is a destructive thing to the person doing it. It doesn't matter how much of a shit they are.

The justification that they'd have come for Alexandria anyway is a bit crap because no matter how true it could have been no other option was offered or even entertained beyond Morgan's suggestions (which was only put out there after Morgan asked him if they could absolutely defeat the saviors, to which Rick said they could). Regardless of how what could have happened, Negan and the saviors are coming en masse.

And the Church scene was kinda pointless IMHO as I suspect Rick was straight up telling them what was going to happen. The democratic aspect of what Rick does as a leader seems like a very flimsy facade masking a Ricktatorship.

 

[Blunoise]

I actually think this show has a lot of disturbe people who love this show, and when someone is not a killer they are not a bad ass or cool. But when a almost realistic person like Morgan comes around ( which I see how most people. In this thread will act because I'm pretty everyone does not have the balls to go on killing sprees in real life, watching a tv show ain't the same thing) they think he is stupid and weak, but people forgot someone people are just not born killers

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I actually think this show has a lot of disturbe people who love this show, and when someone is not a killer they are not a bad ass or cool. But when a almost realistic person like Morgan comes around ( which I see how most people. In this thread will act because I'm pretty everyone does not have the balls to go on killing sprees in real life, watching a tv show ain't the same thing) they think he is stupid and weak, but people forgot someone people are just not born killers

People forget that Morgan has killed plenty. The dude even had a psychotic break where he very well could've killed Rick if he came across him.

 

[More_Badass]

Again, it doesn't matter what they do. Dehumanising the enemy (well, they do this or that so _____ is just fine because they are lesser people) is a destructive thing to the person doing it. It doesn't matter how much of a shit they are.

The justification that they'd have come for Alexandria anyway is a bit crap because no matter how true it could have been no other option was offered or even entertained beyond Morgan's suggestions (which was only put out there after Morgan asked him if they could absolutely defeat the saviors, to which Rick said they could). Regardless of how what could have happened, Negan and the saviors are coming en masse.

And the Church scene was kinda pointless IMHO as I suspect Rick was straight up telling them what was going to happen. The democratic aspect of what Rick does as a leader seems like a very flimsy facade masking a Ricktatorship.

A leader who is no stranger to brutal violence convincing his walled idyllic community to pre-emptively attack some group that will attack one day

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

A leader who is no stranger to brutal violence convincing his walled idyllic community to pre-emptively attack some group that will attack one day

He's kinda like Morgan who was obsessed with clearing areas. It's all he's done for so long that he has become locked into one way of thinking.

Morgan: "Walkers, people, anything that gets anywhere near me, I kill them."

With Rick there is no other option but to kill any potential enemy. In doing so he's unleashed a force that increasingly looks like it'll be tougher than anything he's dealt with.

 

[someday]

there's no doubt that both sides will lose something but I'm just saying, the higher risk would have been doing nothing. Given that, it wasn't a bad choice. There is all the evidence in the world that if the saviours found alexandria they'd be fucked.

Worse case scenario before the last couple of episodes, the Saviors eventually find them and demand half of what they have. By jumping in like this, our group is looking at full-on war and they are the ones who started it. I'm not saying the Saviors are decent people at all just that it looks like Rick and the gang have brought this upon themselves going on an assumption that the Saviors would have found them. They never found Alexandria before this though.

 

[mattiewheels]

Yup, out of all the violence I've seen on this show, watching Glen kill those people in their sleep was some of the worst.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

That Carol stuff was laaaaaaame I mean she almost got herself or Maggie killed about 4 times.

 

[Ensirius]

Yup, out of all the violence I've seen on this show, watching Glen kill those people in their sleep was some of the worst.

Yup. The feeling of intimacy on those scenes was gut wrenching.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Show me one time, ONE since she started developing into a hardened survivor where she's put herself into danger because of inaction or "freezing" (i.e. allowing her captor into arms reach of her, putting her own life in danger). It doesn't fit in with her character, regardless of what she's feeling. She's always been able to get the job done without hesitation, especially when on the defensive end. Like I said, feeling remorse and regret is human and SHOULD be explored for her character, but her inability to do what is necessary to survive works against the progression she has made (yeah, she survived, but BARELY and only after taking a totally unnecessary risk). Again, using the time skip as leverage is bad writing (but so much time has passed and we just didn't see it).

What other questionable moments? Maybe when she was sobbing and cowering in the corner as her captor tormented her with threats of death? Or how she held onto the rosery at the end of the episode, suggesting much of what she showed in the beginning of the episode wasn't actually an act? The only reasonably emotional moment for her was trapping and burning people alive, which would make anyone's stomach churn.

This is basic contradictory character development. They missed a golden opportunity to explore her emotions through her decision to manipulatively torment Sam and inadvertently killing him.

All you're doing is creating this weird criteria so it fit your argument on when did Carol hesitate to kill someone since she turned into Chuck Norris. Why on earth would there be such a criteria, she's developing and this is part of what's happening to her. She killed all of them, including the one she didn't want to kill in horrifying fashion when it came down it. The time skip isn't bad writing, but apparently it is a problem for people like you that can't put 2 + 2 together on top of I don't want badass character to be anything but badass character. I already gave a ton of examples of the shit she's been through and how she was proven wrong with both Sam and Morgan on different occasion during the zombie raid that everything she thought of was not correct.

lol at the reasonable moment being burning someone. Can you give us some more insight on what someone whose killed people before should be feeling that is considered reasonable. Tell us based on your experience mate, I'd love to hear more of it. There's no way part of what she was doing when captured wasn't fake, but again this nothing to be surprised about. She's feeling emotionally fucked up for killing a lot of people as she's done before, she did it again killing 5-10 people in horrific manners and seeing her leader kill someone showing 0 emotion. There's nothing shocking or surprising there based on her reaction.

 

[Lorcain]

Agreed. The overall theme for the past 2 episodes was the emotional internal struggle of everyone in the group, Carol included, as they transitioned to a darker path. Most of the group was shown during the outpost raid struggling with each kill. Carol had started to regain some of her humanity in Alexandria, and her hope for a future where other people could be good again, like Maggie.

Maggie ruthlessly slaying people during their escape did more to crush Carol's hopes than anything Carol did herself. I think Carol was probably justifying her past killings as a necessary evil so that the future of humanity, people like Maggie and her baby, could live in a better world.