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[JuanLatino]

theory for the next episode:

Team 1: Abraham & Eugene and Team 2: Rosita & Daryll (+ Denise?) searching for Supplies outside of Alexandria.
Slow Episode, character development, dialoges (esp. between Abraham and Eugene), fighting against Walkers - artificial tension.

At the end of Episode 14 on of the teams will be spotted by the saviours? which will follow them back to Alexandria.


if someone dies in the next episode, my bet would be on Eugene or Rosita

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

I'm trying to remember when was ricks actual first human killing was it Shane ?

 

[JuanLatino]

I'm trying to remember when was ricks actual first human killing was it Shane ?

no at the bar with hershell

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

Oh yeah

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

But Rick was a deputy sheriff so he could have very well killed people in the line of duty.

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

But Rick was a deputy sheriff so he could have very well killed people in the line of duty.

Well yeah

 

[Surfinn]

Seriously? She killed everyone else. It was clearly that single person that affected her because Paula reminded Carol of herself.

And the sobbing and crying part was her chameleon act. The rosary beads were a means to the end at that time, although by the end, they had more value


Once you got to double digits, that's like serial killer territory. And a lot of those were brutal close-up melee kills. I was listening to Hardcore History, and he was talking about the Romans vs Carthage, and how fucked up and terrifying it must have been to have kill dozens of people for hours on the battlefield, blood and guts, hacking your enemies to pieces, Far removed from the distant drone strikes of today.

You have to imagine that thinking back on everything she's done, how brutal she's become, how she can do these things so easily, has to be scary for a person. That's an emotional weight. They're like soldiers, and you have to imagine there's some kind of mental trauma when they're back to normalcy, and she can think in the peace and quiet of her bed, removed from the constant struggle and tension of the road, relive those events and actions over in her head

I guess if people want emotionless terminator Carol, I guess she's ruined, sure.

But I'd say it's a natural progression for her character. And she never just "causally" killed people. Even back in Season 4, she felt remorse and guilt for killing Karen and David and was emotional while killing Lizzie. In Season 5 premiere, the "You could have been one of us" talk tied into that, that this world was molding the survivors. Season 6, she was emotionally affected after the Wolf attack. And so on

Being "able to get the job done without hesitation" IS the scary part for her. She doesn't want to be able to kill so easily

The direction is confusing. What value did it have by the end of the episode? Because I took it as a partial return to who she used to be: when she had her faith, she was a scared and weak character who relied on prayer to get through difficult times (these characteristics were shown in the beginning of the episode when she was captured, then quickly reinforced after her escape). She's evolved into someone who takes action and had learned to control much of what happens to herself and those around her through making difficult decisions (which carry extreme emotional weight, so no, she's never been this "terminator" you're suggesting, but she's learned to place her emotions aside to do what she believes needs to be done).

Like I said before, I think the majority of guilt she felt was living with Tyreese while he was being so kind to her since he had no idea she murdered them. Anyone would have been affected by murdering a child, and especially considering how Sophia died, it makes perfect sense why she would carry more emotional weight as a result of this decision.

And that's where I have a huge problem. I get that you think her not killing so easily is a result of the emotional weight she carries, but she's never been able to not act and survive, no matter the emotional weight, so this new development doesn't make much sense to me considering she's been saving her own ass and others' for about 4 seasons now. We've gone in circles a lot here, so thank you for the discussion. I'll agree to disagree with you. I think it's run its course.

All you're doing is creating this weird criteria so it fit your argument on when did Carol hesitate to kill someone since she turned into Chuck Norris. Why on earth would there be such a criteria, she's developing and this is part of what's happening to her. She killed all of them, including the one she didn't want to kill in horrifying fashion when it came down it. The time skip isn't bad writing, but apparently it is a problem for people like you that can't put 2 + 2 together on top of I don't want badass character to be anything but badass character. I already gave a ton of examples of the shit she's been through and how she was proven wrong with both Sam and Morgan on different occasion during the zombie raid that everything she thought of was not correct.

lol at the reasonable moment being burning someone. Can you give us some more insight on what someone whose killed people before should be feeling that is considered reasonable. Tell us based on your experience mate, I'd love to hear more of it. There's no way part of what she was doing when captured wasn't fake, but again this nothing to be surprised about. She's feeling emotionally fucked up for killing a lot of people as she's done before, she did it again killing 5-10 people in horrific manners and seeing her leader kill someone showing 0 emotion. There's nothing shocking or surprising there based on her reaction.

There's no "weird criteria". Are you really suggesting that killing her captor (who admitted to being a merciless killer and posed a direct threat to both Carol and Maggie) and trapping completely random people/burning them alive aren't drastically different circumstances? Pretty clear differences here.

Name me a single time Carol has hesitated to survive or keep someone else alive she cares about (after her departure from a someone "scared of her own shadow"). One single time. No one here has been able to provide it for me, because it doesn't fit her character and has never happened prior to this episode. That's why it feels weird and feels totally out of place for Carol. Again, she's been here a multitude of times (feeling bad for what she's done), and she carries a significant amount of emotional weight, but she's learned to put it aside and do what she believes is the right thing to do. It would be like Shane suddenly not being able to perform and getting into a position where he almost dies because of it. It's not like him.

"People like you?" "Can't do 2+2?" Come on, how old are we here? Thanks for the constructive conversation.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

There's no "weird criteria". Are you really suggesting that killing her captor (who admitted to being a merciless killer and posed a direct threat to both Carol and Maggie) and trapping completely random people/burning them alive aren't drastically different circumstances? Pretty clear differences here.

Name me a single time Carol has hesitated to survive or keep someone else alive she cares about (after her departure from a someone "scared of her own shadow"). One single time. No one here has been able to provide it for me, because it doesn't fit her character and has never happened prior to this episode. That's why it feels weird and feels totally out of place for Carol. Again, she's been here a multitude of times (feeling bad for what she's done), and she carries a significant amount of emotional weight, but she's learned to put it aside and do what she believes is the right thing to do. It would be like Shane suddenly not being able to perform and getting into a position where he almost dies because of it. It's not like him.

"People like you?" "Can't do 2+2?" Come on, how old are we here? Thanks for the constructive conversation.

It's a weird criteria because it's a made up criteria of why isn't Carol the same as before? This is her going through her character development, and you don't like the direction.. so you're shocked that she's doing different things. It just sounds like an awful complaint. The only reason she's being different is because she's going through a different phase into her development. You're just making me repeat the same words because they go through one ear and out the next. The recent events of Sam, Morgan proving her ways wrong. You don't want understand that her slaying people is getting to her.. Shane had 2 seasons in the WD, Carol has had 6. Who knows what development Shane would have went through in much longer period of time, but I guess you would be here asking why Shane isn't exactly the same as he was before.

"Well it didn't bother her when she killed 10 people, it should never bother her if she kills 20" Why the hell not? Can you tell me based on your experience on killing that many people on how she should feel?

 

[Surfinn]

It's a weird criteria because it's a made up criteria of why isn't Carol the same as before? This is her going through her character development, and you don't like the direction.. so you're shocked that she's doing different things. It just sounds like an awful complaint. The only reason she's being different is because she's going through a different phase into her development. You're just making me repeat the same words because they go through one ear and out the next. The recent events of Sam, Morgan proving her ways wrong. You don't want understand that her slaying people is getting to her.. Shane had 2 seasons in the WD, Carol has had 6. Who knows what development Shane would have went through in much longer period of time, but I guess you would be here asking why Shane isn't exactly the same as he was before.

"Well it didn't bother her when she killed 10 people, it should never bother her if she kills 20" Why the hell not? Can you tell me based on your experience on killing that many people on how she should feel?

I never said it didn't bother her. Read my previous posts (see: emotional weight). I don't need to have killed someone to recognized forced, abrupt and poorly written character development, so I'm not sure why you're changing the issue being discussed. And since we're spinning in circles and you're under the impression that I'm not listening (just because I don't agree with you) and you're getting more upset, I think it's time to end the conversation. I agree to disagree with you.

 

[Sendero]

The relevant point, is of what she is scared of.

In the past, she couldn't handle any kind of danger: violence from other people, fight against zombies, stand for what she believed, etc.

Her current transition, is not about being afraid of that. She is afraid of herself and what she can do now (ie. easily kill tons of people). She is trying to return to a life of having a moral compass, that would prevent her to do henious things, just because it's the easy route.

That's no regression. She isn't losing her skills. She just want to get out of the vicious cycle she is now. Of course, that struggle caused her to hesitate for a moment. But once she decided that there was no way around, she resumed digesting persons like it was Friday.


It goes without saying, that such development will almost assuredly cause her to die. The question then is, if she will die just due to a moment of hesitation, or if she dies because she chooses a different path (and she is ok with that).

 

[RustyNails]

I think the second half of this season is making it clear that Rick and his group are not the "good guys" as that chick said. There has been a constant tug of war between Morgan's philosophy of nonviolence to Rick's pre-emptive strike madness. I think it goes back to when Rick used to be more defensive and Shane used to be more aggressive. It's a re-occurring theme. Everyone admits that Rick has kept them alive (generally) and safe with his methods, but how far will you go? Point blank killing Primo was not warranted and that struck Carol on what they've become. The group has lost so much humanity along the way.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I think the second half of this season is making it clear that Rick and his group are not the "good guys" as that chick said. There has been a constant tug of war between Morgan's philosophy of nonviolence to Rick's pre-emptive strike madness. I think it goes back to when Rick used to be more defensive and Shane used to be more aggressive. It's a re-occurring theme. Everyone admits that Rick has kept them alive (generally) and safe with his methods, but how far will you go? Point blank killing Primo was not warranted and that struck Carol on what they've become. The group has lost so much humanity along the way.

Not only that, but what happens when the group has taken a bite off far more than they can chew? They view Rick as the best person for the job to lead because his methods have proven correct, how will people react when he finally fucked with the wrong people and got people killed and put the town in a situation they could have avoided if they didn't go to violence as option one?

 

[dustyherb]

Not only that, but what happens when the group has taken a bite off far more than they can chew? They view Rick as the best person for the job to lead because his methods have proven correct, how will people react when he finally fucked with the wrong people and got people killed and put the town in a situation they could have avoided if they didn't go to violence as option one?

Rick is not all to blame. Daryl was the intial one to act all badass and say they can take care of them. Not to mention Maggie vouched for them and made the deal official with Gregory. Everyone was okay with the plan as well at the town meeting. Morgan was the only one who spoke up, you could say Tara looked a little uneasy but still she didn't say shit.

If everything goes to shit for Rick and the group it's everyone's fault. This isn't a ricktatorship anymore and if they all really wanted to they could've talked Rick down about attacking right away. They did it with the whole Beth situation and when Rick wanted to go back and make sure all the terminus people were dead. This is a group decision so if they start blaming Rick that's bullshit.

 

[WickedLaharl]

This is a sad turn of events for me because i greatly prefer Kill'em All Carol

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Rick is not all to blame. Daryl was the intial one to act all badass and say they can take care of them. Not to mention Maggie vouched for them and made the deal official with Gregory. Everyone was okay with the plan as well at the town meeting. Morgan was the only one who spoke up, you could say Tara looked a little uneasy but still she didn't say shit.

If everything goes to shit for Rick and the group it's everyone's fault. This isn't a ricktatorship anymore and if they all really wanted to they could've talked Rick down about attacking right away. They did it with the whole Beth situation and when Rick wanted to go back and make sure all the terminus people were dead. This is a group decision so if they start blaming Rick that's bullshit.

Rick put a spin on it in Alexandria that didn't exist when they made the deal in the Hilltop. Besides, at that point Rick had decided for them already and had taken the food so telling them was a courtesy rather than an attempt to ask permission.

 

[bitbydeath]

I think the second half of this season is making it clear that Rick and his group are not the "good guys" as that chick said.

Yup, did we ever get a GIF of Rick saying 'WHAT' after ripping that guys throat out on hilltop?

 

[Sendero]

[

.

 

[JuanLatino]

i seriously don't understand this discussion about good or bad.

at this point there is no good or bad people - its about surviving, living, keeping your friends and family safe.

did some of you forget the experience this group has made over the past seasons?

-Rick didn't finish of that prisoner, he came back and lori died (tough rick didn't know that he was alive)
-they didn't kill the governour, he came back and hershel died + lost their home and other people
- they didn't finish of the terminus people (even tough rick wanted) and they came back and bob died.

These people will always come back, so finish of all saviours + Negan witouth compromises.


Ricks group had 3 Choices

A) Ignore the saviours and live with fear, because they could come after them any day like the wolves

B) Negotiate with them.
Abraham and Sasha were nearly killed by them, because they asked a question
Hilltop people are pracitcally their slaves

so yeah i think Rick doesn't need to know much more about these people to know that a negotation would be extremely risky.
And if it doesn't work out, war will break out, his people will die, alexandria could be overrun.

C) kill the the saviours

yeah it was horribile to watch them kill people at their sleep. But again, how would you do it?
What is the best way, to kill them quickly, without losing your own people?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

A lot of these posts discussing the reasons for going after the neganites are ignoring that it was part of the deal made with the hilltop peeps. It's not like they decided to just do it out of the blue. It wasn't really about preemptive action to protect themselves, it was taking care of someone else's problem in return for supplies. "This is how we eat" as Rick kept saying.

 

[AngmarsKing701]

i seriously don't understand this discussion about good or bad.

at this point there is no good or bad people - its about surviving, living, keeping your friends and family safe.

did some of you forget the experience this group has made over the past seasons?

-Rick didn't finish of that prisoner, he came back and lori died (tough rick didn't know that he was alive)
-they didn't kill the governour, he came back and hershel died + lost their home and other people
- they didn't finish of the terminus people (even tough rick wanted) and they came back and bob died.

These people will always come back, so finish of all saviours + Negan witouth compromises.


Ricks group had 3 Choices

A) Ignore the saviours and live with fear, because they could come after them any day like the wolves

B) Negotiate with them.
Abraham and Sasha were nearly killed by them, because they asked a question
Hilltop people are pracitcally their slaves

so yeah i think Rick doesn't need to know much more about these people to know that a negotation would be extremely risky.
And if it doesn't work out, war will break out, his people will die, alexandria could be overrun.

C) kill the the saviours

yeah it was horribile to watch them kill people at their sleep. But again, how would you do it?
What is the best way, to kill them quickly, without losing your own people?

Great post. Great analysis.

 

[Surfinn]

i seriously don't understand this discussion about good or bad.

at this point there is no good or bad people - its about surviving, living, keeping your friends and family safe.

did some of you forget the experience this group has made over the past seasons?

-Rick didn't finish of that prisoner, he came back and lori died (tough rick didn't know that he was alive)
-they didn't kill the governour, he came back and hershel died + lost their home and other people
- they didn't finish of the terminus people (even tough rick wanted) and they came back and bob died.

These people will always come back, so finish of all saviours + Negan witouth compromises.


Ricks group had 3 Choices

A) Ignore the saviours and live with fear, because they could come after them any day like the wolves

B) Negotiate with them.
Abraham and Sasha were nearly killed by them, because they asked a question
Hilltop people are pracitcally their slaves

so yeah i think Rick doesn't need to know much more about these people to know that a negotation would be extremely risky.
And if it doesn't work out, war will break out, his people will die, alexandria could be overrun.

C) kill the the saviours

yeah it was horribile to watch them kill people at their sleep. But again, how would you do it?
What is the best way, to kill them quickly, without losing your own people?

Agreed. However, I think there are still huge differences between what the governor was and what Rick is now. It's a clear distinction that even Rick can recognize. He still has some of his humanity whereas the gov not only lost it all but actually enjoyed savagely murdering people.

Good vs bad is still a relevant discussion because they don't want to live ruthlessly and believe they can work towards eventually living decent lives.

 

[Lorcain]

i seriously don't understand this discussion about good or bad.

at this point there is no good or bad people - its about surviving, living, keeping your friends and family safe.

This has been the primal truth of their existence since the apocalypse began, but there's a clear running theme about wanting to be more. There have been characters along the way that have attempted to guide and counsel Rick on the importance of holding on to his humanity, and the idea of something better. Most of the main characters have all struggled with that internal primal drive to survive and wanting to fight for something better.

I agree with survival being the persistent, primal force of the show, but I disagree that there isn't anything more. It's that whole walking dead theme. Are they more than just a bunch of walking dead?

 

[RustyNails]

We're not gonna see Negan until the last scene of the season finale are we

 

[Solo]

We're not gonna see Negan until the last scene of the season finale are we

TV 101

 

[Enco]

I have a feeling Negan is gonna be around for a long time; longer than the guvna probably

I hope he isn't there past 1 season, but I feel we'll see him for 2.

Might be hard to keep finding new enemies so I wouldn't be surprised if they stretch this out.

:lol at the idea that the group is now super evil. They are doing exactly what they have to. It's ridiculous to say that they should 'have a discussion' or 'show mercy'. As if that has worked in the past...

 

[Faith]

Good or bad. To be killed or to kill, you choose.

 

[poppabk]

i seriously don't understand this discussion about good or bad.

at this point there is no good or bad people - its about surviving, living, keeping your friends and family safe.

did some of you forget the experience this group has made over the past seasons?

-Rick didn't finish of that prisoner, he came back and lori died (tough rick didn't know that he was alive)
-they didn't kill the governour, he came back and hershel died + lost their home and other people
- they didn't finish of the terminus people (even tough rick wanted) and they came back and bob died.

These people will always come back, so finish of all saviours + Negan witouth compromises.


Ricks group had 3 Choices

A) Ignore the saviours and live with fear, because they could come after them any day like the wolves

B) Negotiate with them.
Abraham and Sasha were nearly killed by them, because they asked a question
Hilltop people are pracitcally their slaves

so yeah i think Rick doesn't need to know much more about these people to know that a negotation would be extremely risky.
And if it doesn't work out, war will break out, his people will die, alexandria could be overrun.

C) kill the the saviours

yeah it was horribile to watch them kill people at their sleep. But again, how would you do it?
What is the best way, to kill them quickly, without losing your own people?

So did they make a mistake not massacring the hilltop people, first chance they got? The governor seemed nice enough if you didn't look to deep.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

So did they make a mistake not massacring the hilltop people, first chance they got? The governor seemed nice enough if you didn't look to deep.

Hilltop made their own food in surplus, only had primitive weapons and lacked fighters. They were no immediate threat, and no benefit to eliminate.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

A lot of these posts discussing the reasons for going after the neganites are ignoring that it was part of the deal made with the hilltop peeps. It's not like they decided to just do it out of the blue. It wasn't really about preemptive action to protect themselves, it was taking care of someone else's problem in return for supplies. "This is how we eat" as Rick kept saying.

Exactly.

The "they'll come for us" speech was given after the fact and only to appease the Alexandrians who were already unloading the food given to them as a result of the deal that Rick and Daryl made. Rick doesn't ask for permission. He takes and asks for forgiveness.

i seriously don't understand this discussion about good or bad.

at this point there is no good or bad people - its about surviving, living, keeping your friends and family safe.

did some of you forget the experience this group has made over the past seasons?

-Rick didn't finish of that prisoner, he came back and lori died (tough rick didn't know that he was alive)
-they didn't kill the governour, he came back and hershel died + lost their home and other people
- they didn't finish of the terminus people (even tough rick wanted) and they came back and bob died.

These people will always come back, so finish of all saviours + Negan witouth compromises.


Ricks group had 3 Choices

A) Ignore the saviours and live with fear, because they could come after them any day like the wolves

B) Negotiate with them.
Abraham and Sasha were nearly killed by them, because they asked a question
Hilltop people are pracitcally their slaves

so yeah i think Rick doesn't need to know much more about these people to know that a negotation would be extremely risky.
And if it doesn't work out, war will break out, his people will die, alexandria could be overrun.

C) kill the the saviours

yeah it was horribile to watch them kill people at their sleep. But again, how would you do it?
What is the best way, to kill them quickly, without losing your own people?

It wasn't so much what they did but rather how they went about it. When making the decision to kill the Saviors Daryl jumped at it out of desperation but Rick was completely blasé (which is the most troubling thing of all). At that point they couldn't do anything else but kill the saviors because they'd already committed to doing it.

Also, after they dealt with the zombie herd Rick claimed that he believed things could be better but his actions are still the actions of a man trying to survive outside the walls. If he wants something different then he's got to be willing to change.

Incidentally you claim that a war would break out if a negotiation didn't work out, but that is precisely what is happening now. We just haven't seen the first retaliatory volley.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

The "they'll come for us" speech was given after the fact and only to appease the Alexandrians who were already unloading the food given to them as a result of the deal that Rick and Daryl made. Rick doesn't ask for permission. He takes and asks for forgiveness.

Wasn't it technically Maggie who made the deal?

 

[someday]

Wasn't it technically Maggie who made the deal?

And this is interesting because it only took her two episodes to decide she can't do this stuff (murder) anymore.

 

[User 479360]

I need to know the reason for Maggie's haircut. The anticipation is killing me.

 

[Captain Europe]

In their universe, they're still the good guys really, they may have killed people in their sleep, but these people had pictures of mashed brains on their walls, I'm sure Rick & co have prevented lots of horrible deaths by taking them out. They're still nowhere near the level of the governor or other bad guys.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

New episode tonight!

Twice as Far

Spoiler

Two different groups leave Alexandria on supply runs. While both are concerned with the future of the community, immediate danger will derail them.

Tonight's episode was written by Matthew Negrete (who last co-wrote 6.11 "Knots Untie", the one where Rick and Co. go to the Hilltop) and was directed by Alrick Riley (Hunted, Person of Interest) who is making his Walking Dead debut.

The guest stars on tonight's Talking Dead are:

Christian Serratos (Rosita)
Josh McDermitt (Eugene)
Greg Raiewski (winner of the Ultimate Fan contest)

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Wasn't it technically Maggie who made the deal?

Maggie negotiated it, but Rick and Daryl are the ones that came up with it. And without Rick there is no deal.

Basically, Rick leads. Everyone follows.

 

[silva1991]

Episode 13 escalated quickly

I wonder what molly meant by "we are all Negan" it kinda creeped me out for some reason lol.

can't wait for next episode.

 

[SolidChamp]

Episode 13 escalated quickly

I wonder what molly meant by "we are all Negan" it kinda creeped me out for some reason lol.

can't wait for next episode.

Negan will add the biological and technological distinctiveness of Rick's group to their own. Resistance is futile.

 

[kharma45]

Episode 13 escalated quickly

I wonder what molly meant by "we are all Negan" it kinda creeped me out for some reason lol.

can't wait for next episode.

To me it seemed like negan was an idea or belief.

 

[AngmarsKing701]

Episode 13 escalated quickly

I wonder what molly meant by "we are all Negan" it kinda creeped me out for some reason lol.

can't wait for next episode.

To me it seemed like negan was an idea or belief.

If I didn't know the casting news or the discussion in this thread about Jeffrey Dean Morgan coming aboard, one could imagine NEGAN being an acronym for something.

 

[TheSeks]

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/18/walking-dead-josh-mcdermitt-eugene-alexandria

OMG.

 

[con-ca-te-nate]

This is a sad turn of events for me because i greatly prefer Kill'em All Carol

lol she did kill them all though.

 

[SamuraiX-]

The funniest thing about Carol is that I remember back at the beginning of Season 4, people were saying the producers character assassinated her because she was turning emotionally/mentally hardened.

Now they're character assassinating her for going through moral struggles, like any sane human being would, from fighting against her true nature all this time.

Somethingsomething bad writing because I don't like the direction of a character somethingsomething.

 

[DangerMouse]

Man seeing it again I still love the bit where she's like "I see what you are" toward Carol and she's completely wrong. She got played so hard by Carol

 

[BlackGhost]

Melissa McBae

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Here's hoping for less Carol action hero moments next episode. Felt like a step back for her character (was going well until then).

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

He we go fellow roamers

 

[-MD-]

We expecting a major death tonight?

Edit: Why did I think ep 14 was the finale? Oops.

 

[DangerMouse]

"Meet us at the kill floor" damn.

Edit: Oh yeah, Rick jumping the gun not knowing.

 

[Nokagi]

Don't call Rick a shithead.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Les doooooooo et. 3 left right?