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[jeffram]

What a pathetic episode that was...just talking and zero rising action and now the group is altogether again with none dead. Lol. What I find even funnier is you guys debating over these badly written characters by halfbrained writers.

This post reminds me of my 12 year old cousin hating on The Dark Knight because Batman didn't beat enough people up. Although he still had the maturity to not be condescending about it.

I thought the episode was very impactful and continues to shed light on the larger world around them, who they are in it, and what the new means of survival are.

 

[Betty]

Negan was not a clear and present threat to them. They made him a danger because they wanted Gregory's / Hilltop's resources. They could have found another way to get the stuff they needed without having to kill people in their sleep. They're kinda bad people.

I just hope Negan is gonna fuck some shit up.

Come on.

If Rick had tried a more peaceable approach, Negan would have eventually come for Alexandria and likely forced a similar deal on them or, far more likely, wiped them all out.

 

[Funky Papa]

Yeah, I'm totally ok with Rick's gang taking on Negan. He's obviously an extremely dangerous actor with predatory tendencies and sooner or later they would have faced him on his terms. They had to take the initiative. It was good strategical thinking.

Where Rick fucked up was assaulting the outpost without prior recon and killing that soldier without bothering to see if he had something useful to say. He has developed a bloodlust that blinds him at difficult times and there's no doubt in my mind there's going to be a reckoning.

By the looks of it Negan's group is very large (probably on par with prime Alexandria, if not bigger) and heavily militarised. They communicate using intrincate means to avoid interception and everything points at them plaguing other enclaves, which means lots of manpower and weapons in order to run the operation. Meanwhile, Rick's group is relatively small and dependant on a small number of high powered characters, with two of them (Maggie and Carol) being partly broken. Hell, his entire army is out of town; Negan's group could run a train on Alexandria if they found about it. The Governor mostly relied on scared peasants and some hardened citizens to run the place. Negan, meanwhile, dispatches biker gangs, holds militarised outposts and even sends rescue parties to pick up his troops.

Sasha, Darryl, Mich and Rick are all good fighters, but they won't be able to face a proper group of murderous thugs without the element of surprise unless Carl, Morgan and Gabriel sayan-up.

 

[MK_768]

This post reminds me of my 12 year old cousin hating on The Dark Knight because Batman didn't beat enough people up. Although he still had the maturity to not be condescending about it.

I thought the episode was very impactful and continues to shed light on the larger world around them, who they are in it, and what the new means of survival are.

Kinda wonder why the guy watches the show lol

 

[mattiewheels]

I personally really liked how up to interpretation Carol's erratic behavior was in captivity. I'm glad they didn't completely spell out where her ruse began and ended, it's understandable that they don't want her character to become a one-note badass killer when there's room to play with her conflict in there.

And I just had the epiphany that Morgan was in Snatch and 24 Hour Party People and I never even realized it was the same guy.

 

[Hidden One]

That one woman that was interrogating Maggie is stupid. Yeah just tie her up to a pipe and walk off until you get shot in the head.

 

[Alpende]

Come on.

If Rick had tried a more peaceable approach, Negan would have eventually come for Alexandria and likely forced a similar deal on them or, far more likely, wiped them all out.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm just saying that Rick's group went out of their way to deal with Negan. Now that they've killed a whole bunch of Saviors they made the situation even worse I think.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Maybe, maybe not. I'm just saying that Rick's group went out of their way to deal with Negan. Now that they've killed a whole bunch of Saviors they made the situation even worse I think.

it's not really worse. They either risk being at a severe disadvantage or losing it all by waiting for the saviours to act first or do whatever damage they can upfront.

It's not a win by any stretch but I think it was the best possible move. They basically took out an entire base (including armoury).

 

[Alpende]

Yeah, but don't you think Negans' inevitable reaction would have been different if they only killed 6 people, the dudes on bikes, instead of an entire compound?

The red headed chick even said they acted in self defense when talking about the motorcycle gang and she understood. Clearing out a compound warrants a different reaction imo. Plus, I think a lot of people underestimate Negan's army. They work with protocols, different radio channels and probably have more than 1 base. They seem very organized.

It's still all speculation though.

 

[More_Badass]

Yeah, but don't you think Negans' inevitable reaction would have been different if they only killed 6 people, the dudes on bikes, instead of an entire compound?

The red headed chick even said they acted in self defense when talking about the motorcycle gang and she understood. Clearing out a compound warrants a different reaction imo. Plus, I think a lot of people underestimate Negan's army. They work with protocols, different radio channels and probably have more than 1 base. They seem very organized.

It's still all speculation though.

I think guys like Negan, The Governor, Claimers, etc. they're going to have the same reaction if you kill one guy or 100. They're going to terrorize you, kill you, and take your stuff anyway

Rick's attack might give Negan a facade of righteousness in getting revenge, but you just know these kinds of bad guys in post-apocalyptic fiction would act the same way with or without provocation

 

[strafer]

How many times have maggie been kidnapped? sigh.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Yeah, but don't you think Negans' inevitable reaction would have been different if they only killed 6 people, the dudes on bikes, instead of an entire compound?

The red headed chick even said they acted in self defense when talking about the motorcycle gang and she understood. Clearing out a compound warrants a different reaction imo. Plus, I think a lot of people underestimate Negan's army. They work with protocols, different radio channels and probably have more than 1 base. They seem very organized.

It's still all speculation though.

you have to remember though that the war is inevitable. Only difference is saviours would have much more people and an armory if rick did nothing. When Negan finds alexandria he will do the same thing to it as hilltop or worse (probably worse considering how great alexandria is), and Rick would never stand for it. If even one person is threatened he is willing to go to war to save that person. That's been shown time and time again.

 

[Zalasta]

So I get that settling down is becoming more and more of a reality for these people, and therefore, their thought process might be different than while being on the run. However, character development is a progression and it has always been a miss for this show because how much they've neglected it in the past 6 seasons. My issue with the recent struggles faced by Carol and Abraham is just how jarring they are. They feel like completely different people before and after the hiatus. As a result, once again these "developments" seemed less in service of the characters themselves but rather as a convenient device to make the plot juicier, because invariably (like Sasha and Morgan in the first half of the season) their struggles will become a liability to the group.

I'm no writer but these are not character developments, they are contrived plot devices and The Walking Dead has been reusing them again and again.

 

[Sendero]

it's not really worse. They either risk being at a severe disadvantage or losing it all by waiting for the saviours to act first or do whatever damage they can upfront.

It's not a win by any stretch but I think it was the best possible move. They basically took out an entire base (including armoury).

We are entering into speculation land (that will never occur), but I would assume they made things a lot more worse.

Assuming what Hilltop said is 100% (and I'm not sure), the Saviors didn't come and conquered them. Instead, they are asking for a "tribute" of sorts (charging for protection). But they are still alive, and relatively ok. It's a source of food for Negan so, if he is smart, he would not fully try to dry the well.

Kind of doubt they would be as lenient with Alexandria though. Specially after finding out about their little incursion. So, again.. from a realistic point of view, and based on the info we have at moment, Rick fucked it up big time (this could change in the future, if we later learn that Negan already knew about them, and was getting ready for an invasion, for example).

 

[More_Badass]

So I get that settling down is becoming more and more of a reality for these people, and therefore, their thought process might be different than while being on the run. However, character development is a progression and it has always been a miss for this show because how much they've neglected it in the past 6 seasons. My issue with the recent struggles faced by Carol and Abraham is just how jarring they are. They feel like completely different people before and after the hiatus. As a result, once again these "developments" seemed less in service of the characters themselves but rather as a convenient device to make the plot juicier, because invariably (like Sasha and Morgan in the first half of the season) their struggles will become a liability to the group.

I'm no writer but these are not character developments, they are contrived plot devices and The Walking Dead has been reusing them again and again.

How so? Carol has always felt guilt and remorse for what she's done, down to confessing to Tyrese back in Season 4, and Abraham has been struggling since they got to Alexandria, or even beforehand.

 

[Spikematic]

So I get that settling down is becoming more and more of a reality for these people, and therefore, their thought process might be different than while being on the run. However, character development is a progression and it has always been a miss for this show because how much they've neglected it in the past 6 seasons. My issue with the recent struggles faced by Carol and Abraham is just how jarring they are. They feel like completely different people before and after the hiatus. As a result, once again these "developments" seemed less in service of the characters themselves but rather as a convenient device to make the plot juicier, because invariably (like Sasha and Morgan in the first half of the season) their struggles will become a liability to the group.

I'm no writer but these are not character developments, they are contrived plot devices and The Walking Dead has been reusing them again and again.

I disagree. While the show is rife with glaring flaws, including character development, Carol, Abraham and Sasha's erratic behavior has been well documented since the very beginning. Just look at the shit they went through in the past seasons and how they've been reacting to it. Everything was well telegraphed so I don't get why you feel it is jarring.

 

[Sendero]

I think people are saying that Carol losing hearth on the last episode was too abrupt (same with the readhead girl readily talking about her past).. and I agree. Apparently, these events weren't part of the comic, so can only assume the writers compressed this story too much, to make it fit in 1 chapter. Those moments needed more breath.

But yeah, we have seen how she has been coping with her guilt multiple times with different persons (Rick, Daryl twice, Tyreese, Morgan and now Maggie), so this is not a new development at all, nor caused by Morgan alone.

Predator Carol is so badass, that removing it may feel like a devolution of sorts. She still killed a tons of people this chapter, though.

 

[Surfinn]

Yeah she still had it, but the initial part was to get them to allow her to have it. That's why she stuffed it in her pocket, and after was working her hands free. They play this by showing more of her hands free as ep went along. She was even handling the cig with ease because she got her hands loose enough.

Yeah she still had it, but the initial part was to get them to allow her to have it. That's why she stuffed it in her pocket, and after was working her hands free. They play this by showing more of her hands free as ep went along. She was even handling the cig with ease because she got her hands loose enough.

True, but acting like that was definitely to lower the Saviours' guards and let her keep the beads. That's why she grabbed it, and then put it in her pocket, then freaked out and let them give her the beads. So they wouldn't be suspicious or take them from her.

Again.. I get this, but none of these responses can explain why she was holding onto the rosery at the very end of the episode. The ending shot suggests that she's returning to her faith and that even though she needed it to escape, chose to continue to hold onto it even after doing so. Therefore, a lot of her actions and emotions in the beginning were NOT an act, which is why that shot was included. I don't necessarily have a problem with her returning to faith, but this also suggests that a lot of the emotions she was exhibiting during her capture (i.e. scared, crying, afraid, weak) were also creeping back into her character and reminiscent of S1/S2 Carol. I don't like this as it directly contradicts the development she's had before, which brought me back to Meryl's quote ("scared of your own shadow").

That's why I think it's a step back. Her weakness and fear allowed her to become vulnerable enough to be killed, ALONG with Maggie. She's beyond this. That's not to say she can't show remorse or regret, but she allowed it to impact her ability to survive. Huge step back for her character.

Everyone is going to interpret the show the way they want to. I didn't see some scared of her own shadow character. I saw someone who has killed on numerous occasions and is starting to feel the weight of those killings and it's starting to get to her but if that's how you see it then to each it's own and no I don't see it as a step back for her character. If anything it's only developing a newer character. Her ruthless killer storyline can only go so far before she's completely as Rick put it " too far gone ". She can always come back!

Fair enough, agree to disagree, I saw it as a reversal of her character. I can respect your opinion though.

Again I think this is overstating things. Ultimately she did the exact opposite of what she wanted to do x8 for well being of a loved one, which has been the thing driving 95% of the hard decisions/choices she's made. That she struggled with it doesn't diminish her character in anyway, shape, or form IMO.



No new seeds were planted during the time jump. It simply moved things along they'd already set up. Watch Carol's reaction after the Wolves attack or any of the examples I cited last page.l, this was anything but left field.

Also Rick and Michonne were playing house fron day one, and the writers started hinting at the two getting together late in S4.

She ultimately showed enough weakness to get herself killed along with Maggie. That's a direct reversal of someone who's taken 6 episodes to become a hardened, veteran survivor.

I could totally understand Carol hesitating to kill her if she had been someone they found hiding and she had related to her by seeing directly who she used to be and was too emotionally impacted to be able to pull the trigger. Would have made MUCH more sense if it was more of a sleep kill situation where it was premeditated and there was no direct threat. But this woman had been berating, threatening, and emotionally torturing her for the duration of the episode. Makes absolutely no sense for Carol to put herself in that position over self defense (however, burning people alive is different and I can understand that sort of remorse). Terrible writing used as a "close call" moment to generate forced drama.

And, no, Rick and Michonne were NOT playing house; they may have been living with each other, but as soon as the time jump hits, their interactions change completely and obviously. Any viewer can see this difference if they're paying attention.

Please link me to this evidence from S4.

 

[Zalasta]

I never said Carol felt no guilt/remorse, the issue is why is she letting it affect her now, in a way that is leading her to make poor decisions. What's changed since the hiatus? That is what has gone unexplained because the Carol that killed the Wolves would not have hesitated to kill Negan's people, but all of a sudden she now has a problem with it (not to mention her romance, which was sweet, seemed to came out of nowhere, or maybe I'm just too oblivious to notice the cues).

 

[JoeNut]

that was some bad ass stuff burning those guys. After the last episode in this thread we had a debate about if rick and co are actually the bad guys now, and i liked that in this episode the woman from the saviours actually called them out on that and said "you're not the good guys"

only bit about this episode i disliked was that carol hesitated to kill the main woman (cant remember her name) when you could clearly see she was going to attack carol at any point

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I never said Carol felt no guilt/remorse, the issue is why is she letting it affect her now, in a way that is leading her to make poor decisions. What's changed since the hiatus? That is what has gone unexplained because the Carol that killed the Wolves would not have hesitated to kill Negan's people, but all of a sudden she now has a problem with it (not to mention her romance, which was sweet, seemed to came out of nowhere, or maybe I'm just too oblivious to notice the cues).

Well her finding out the Maggie is pregnant changed a lot of things for her. Carol consistently seems to act irrational when it comes to kids/babies.

 

[hey_monkey]

I get Carol's issues. I think the writers are being a little heavy handed with it, but there are a lot of dead children behind her, and dead people, and she had a little bit of a breather for that stuff to surface. We just didn't see it, and the list and the cookie on the grave wasn't enough for it to settle for most viewers, I think. But it makes sense. Guys, she shot a little girl in the head. She took out a whole goddamned settlement, and maybe she had to do those things, but you think there's never gonna be any guilt attached to that? A whole family died and maybe she was a shit to Sam, but she was still mothering him in her hardened-Carol way. I can't even begin to think about comprehending what that would do to a person, all of it.

Anyway. Really just came here to say I was screaming at the screen at the end because Rick shooting that guy was so stupid. Question him! Maybe he says nothing, maybe he lies, but don't just shoot him! Aughhhhhh.

 

[Surfinn]

I get Carol's issues. I think the writers are being a little heavy handed with it, but there are a lot of dead children behind her, and dead people, and she had a little bit of a breather for that stuff to surface. We just didn't see it, and the list and the cookie on the grave wasn't enough for it to settle for most viewers, I think. But it makes sense. Guys, she shot a little girl in the head. She took out a whole goddamned settlement, and maybe she had to do those things, but you think there's never gonna be any guilt attached to that? A whole family died and maybe she was a shit to Sam, but she was still mothering him in her hardened-Carol way. I can't even begin to think about comprehending what that would do to a person, all of it.

Anyway. Really just came here to say I was screaming at the screen at the end because Rick shooting that guy was so stupid. Question him! Maybe he says nothing, maybe he lies, but don't just shoot him! Aughhhhhh.

Right, and I agree with what you're saying, but it seems strange to me that after six episodes, her ability to survive becomes impacted in such an extreme way. Felt totally out of place for her character.

I agree that Rick should have questioned that guy. In his mind, I think, he just wants the job done and he doesn't want to second guess his ability to do so. Maybe after S2 with the prisoner, he didn't want to get into a position where he wasn't going to do it.

 

[Lorcain]

There are a few things that Rick's group observed during their assault on the Negan outpost and hostage experience that should cause them serious concern.

- The people they fought and killed all thought of themselves as being part of something bigger. They were all Negan. And if that wasn't troubling enough, they were willing to die defiantly as a Negan.

- The Negan group communicates using radio brevity codes and authentication, which indicates prior military experience and good training. It also indicates that they operate on a higher level of standing operations procedures.

- The Negan group has established reaction codes for crisis situations. They have a playbook, so to speak, for various situations. That also indicates good developed SOPs, training, and leadership.

 

[Surfinn]

So I get that settling down is becoming more and more of a reality for these people, and therefore, their thought process might be different than while being on the run. However, character development is a progression and it has always been a miss for this show because how much they've neglected it in the past 6 seasons. My issue with the recent struggles faced by Carol and Abraham is just how jarring they are. They feel like completely different people before and after the hiatus. As a result, once again these "developments" seemed less in service of the characters themselves but rather as a convenient device to make the plot juicier, because invariably (like Sasha and Morgan in the first half of the season) their struggles will become a liability to the group.

I'm no writer but these are not character developments, they are contrived plot devices and The Walking Dead has been reusing them again and again.

Great post. This has been my main concern of the show for all of this season. Seems like the writers just write the plot then the characters to accompany the events happening around them, and not the other way around. Feels like we're just wasting so much time with the dialogue and character progression in order to get to the next set piece. Rinse and repeat. Hopefully it changes with Negan..

 

[ElyrionX]

Just caught the episode.

God damn.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Straight up character assassination in this episode. Gonna miss The Carolnator.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

I really liked that episode. The guy who got shot in the arm was a bit of an agro dick, but the ladies in the group all seemed to have something positive about them that was worth saving. Especially the smoker. I thought she could have been a decent (but grouchy) human being. Oh well.
I thought Maggie was the real villain in this episode. Pushing for Carol to kill them all, when all she wanted to do was walk (or run) away was wrong IMO. Incinerating that Neegan scout group was rough too. Watching Carol asking herself questions about whether she was teamed with monsters was good tv.

 

[Surfinn]

I really liked that episode. The guy who got shot in the arm was a bit of an agro dick, but the ladies in the group all seemed to have something positive about them that was worth saving. Especially the smoker. I thought she could have been a decent (but grouchy) human being. Oh well.
I thought Maggie was the real villain in this episode. Pushing for Carol to kill them all, when all she wanted to do was walk (or run) away was wrong IMO. Incinerating that Neegan scout group was rough too. Watching Carol asking herself questions about whether she was teamed with monsters was good tv.

Forgot about that annoying asshole. Lots of forced drama there too.. saw it coming. Classic TWD "I'm so angry I'm going to abruptly attack someone" routine.

I do love exploring the concept of whether or not Rick's groups are still the "good guys", but it would have honestly made more sense for Maggie to be the conflicted one, considering she's now the group's voice of reason (instead of attempting to set up Carol's moral dilemma).

I think the only time Morgan's character has ever worked (post killing rampage Morgan) was when he questioned whether or not assassinating the saviors without first attempting diplomacy was a wise move. Loved the introduction of that issue because there's lots of pros and cons of taking either side. Hopefully that will be the major theme from this point forward (are we still the good guys?).

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

There are a few things that Rick's group observed during their assault on the Negan outpost and hostage experience that should cause them serious concern.

- The people they fought and killed all thought of themselves as being part of something bigger. They were all Negan. And if that wasn't troubling enough, they were willing to die defiantly as a Negan.

- The Negan group communicates using radio brevity codes and authentication, which indicates prior military experience and good training. It also indicates that they operate on a higher level of standing operations procedures.

- The Negan group has established reaction codes for crisis situations. They have a playbook, so to speak, for various situations. That also indicates good developed SOPs, training, and leadership.

They also have a containment plan. That group didn't know where the main people were. They called in a reaction force from a lager group but had to meet in a neutral place instead of going straight to them.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Rick's group aren't "good guys", but they aren't savages either. If they wanted they could have taken Hilltop easy and take all the food for themselves and start growing more crops in Alexandria.

Then again, I think the only reason they didn't simply take Hilltop was because of the very real threat of The Saviors, and if they take Hilltop then you're going to have to deal with their group when they come looking for their monthly drop.

If I were Rick I would have completely annexed Hilltop. No more trading, you're one of us now and if you don't like it then you can leave. You still get your food, you get even more protection but now we're in control.

Although I'm a little confused, does Rick know that they only took out an FoB? Clearly Carol and Maggie know that "I'm Negan" is just something they say and they are going to tell Rick that he probably just killed some random dude. I don't think they are going to be happy to figure out they just smacked the hornets nest because of limited intel from Hilltop

I mean, they took out an outpost the size of Alexandria in terms of population. The main force of Negan/Saviors is probably huge if they have reaction forces ready to go out fully armed. This group is probably huge. Also I remember that group of people from that woods episode with Daryl, those were Saviors right? They talked about "stealing shit, that's not yours to take".

This group is huge and probably has multiple FoB's all around the DC area. They probably control a multiple amount of smaller communities which are probably forced to give men/women to fight under the group.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

People calling for Carol assassination makes me wonder if you guys are paying any attention to the show or just here for badass human/zombie slays.

 

[Surfinn]

Rick's group aren't "good guys", but they aren't savages either. If they wanted they could have taken Hilltop easy and take all the food for themselves and start growing more crops in Alexandria.

Then again, I think the only reason they didn't simply take Hilltop was because of the very real threat of The Saviors, and if they take Hilltop then you're going to have to deal with their group when they come looking for their monthly drop.

Nah, I don't think that's true. It's another characteristic that separates Rick from the governor. The governor would have killed everyone there and taken their shit unless they submitted to force immediately. Rick wouldn't do it unless he saw them as a threat, and no one would have gone for it because it would make no sense. No one would kill just for the hell of it without evidence of a real threat.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Nah, I don't think that's true. It's another characteristic that separates Rick from the governor. The governor would have killed everyone there and taken their shit unless they submitted to force immediately. Rick wouldn't do it unless he saw them as a threat, and no one would have gone for it because it would make no sense. No one would kill just for the hell of it without evidence of a real threat.

Rick needed food, Rick wouldn't have left that place knowing it's loaded with more food than they need to survive because "aw shucks, they only got spears, that's not fair to them".

They got a deal out of luck, but if they only have food for a month and knew Hilltop was loaded he would have definitely taken a good amount of food by force to keep his people alive.

I think it's why Jesus pushed so hard for a deal, not just because they needed ammo but because of the possible consequence if there was no deal.

 

[Surfinn]

Rick needed food, Rick wouldn't have left that place knowing it's loaded with more food than they need to survive because "aw shucks, they only got spears, that's not fair to them".

They got a deal out of luck, but if they only have food for a month and knew Hilltop was loaded he would have definitely taken a good amount of food by force to keep his people alive.

I think it's why Jesus pushed so hard for a deal, not just because they needed ammo but because of the possible consequence if there was no deal.

Right, but that doesn't mean Rick would have simply killed them all. If someone refused a deal with the gov, he surely would have done that without thinking twice. Rick would have gotten the food one way or another, but what separates him from the gov is that he wouldn't come in with guns blazing as a first response.

Rick may have taken it by force but that doesn't mean he murders everyone there.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Right, but that doesn't mean Rick would have simply killed them all. If someone refused a deal with the gov, he surely would have done that without thinking twice. Rick would have gotten the food one way or another, but what separates him from the gov is that he wouldn't come in with guns blazing as a first response.

Rick may have taken it by force but that doesn't mean he murders everyone there.

I don't think I said Rick would kill them all for the food, Rick isn't the Governor, I never argued that they are the same.

 

[RootCause]

Rick's group aren't "good guys", but they aren't savages either. If they wanted they could have taken Hilltop easy and take all the food for themselves and start growing more crops in Alexandria.

Then again, I think the only reason they didn't simply take Hilltop was because of the very real threat of The Saviors, and if they take Hilltop then you're going to have to deal with their group when they come looking for their monthly drop.

If I were Rick I would have completely annexed Hilltop. No more trading, you're one of us now and if you don't like it then you can leave. You still get your food, you get even more protection but now we're in control.

Although I'm a little confused, does Rick know that they only took out an FoB? Clearly Carol and Maggie know that "I'm Negan" is just something they say and they are going to tell Rick that he probably just killed some random dude. I don't think they are going to be happy to figure out they just smacked the hornets nest because of limited intel from Hilltop

I mean, they took out an outpost the size of Alexandria in terms of population. The main force of Negan/Saviors is probably huge if they have reaction forces ready to go out fully armed. This group is probably huge. Also I remember that group of people from that woods episode with Daryl, those were Saviors right? They talked about "stealing shit, that's not yours to take".

This group is huge and probably has multiple FoB's all around the DC area. They probably control a multiple amount of smaller communities which are probably forced to give men/women to fight under the group.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't Maggie say they'd take their resources if they didn't strike a deal or so,etching like that. Maybe I made that up in my head.

 

[Surfinn]

I don't think I said Rick would kill them all for the food, Rick isn't the Governor, I never argued that they are the same.

Oops sorry, I guess I was jumping back into the convo from earlier in the thread when people were comparing Rick to the gov. I agree with you then. But I still think Rick would have found a way to talk them into sharing.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Negan was not a clear and present threat to them. They made him a danger because they wanted Gregory's / Hilltop's resources. They could have found another way to get the stuff they needed without having to kill people in their sleep. They're kinda bad people.

I just hope Negan is gonna fuck some shit up.

If not for Darryl's bazooka antics, the Saviors would have arrived in Alexandria already. Rick made it clear a couple of episodes back what his justification for wanting to strike first was.

COMIC/SHOW SPOILERS:

Spoiler

Negan and the Saviors are the most serious threat the group has ever faced. You'll see soon enough.

 

[mattiewheels]

People calling for Carol assassination makes me wonder if you guys are paying any attention to the show or just here for badass human/zombie slays.

The fact is most people watch this show for just those things. I could see this being a buzzkill for people who just want to see Carol as a female Chuck Norris or something, but I think this pump of the brakes was really necessary for her character.

 

[Surfinn]

I mean, let's not pretend that Negan and his people were just minding their own business and Rick & co. just attacked them completely unprovoked

Remember their first encounter with the Saviors was a group that wanted to take their stuff, find their community, and then kill them (after saying they've kill a lot of people before)

Good point. I don't think people realize that a confrontation between Rick and Negan would be inevitable and that his group would have eventually found Alexandria, even IF there was no confrontation on the road with Daryl. Since Rick found Hilltop (through Jesus), they would have crossed paths and eventually met because of the necessity of resources.

The fact is most people watch this show for just those things. I could see this being a buzzkill for people who just want to see Carol as a female Chuck Norris or something, but I think this pump of the brakes was really necessary for her character.

Nah, it's about staying true to the way her character has progressed for six seasons and not throwing away that progression in a few episodes with no real, convincing reasoning for doing so. It was never about her coolness.

 

[Kinyou]

It's amazing how little of a fuck Rick gives anymore

 

[RootCause]

Did Carol show any remorse for terrorizing Sam, and ultimately getting him(and his relatives)killed? I think that would've been a better moment for her to reflect, instead of strangers out to kill them.

 

[The Artisan]

Did Carol show any remorse for terrorizing Sam, and ultimately getting him(and his relatives)killed? I think that would've been a better moment for her to reflect, instead of strangers out to kill them.

she left a cookie on his grave.

 

[RootCause]

she left a cookie on his grave.

Ahh so it's been building up till the last ep. Makes more sense for her to break down. I really ought to stop doing other things when watching tv.

 

[Surfinn]

Did Carol show any remorse for terrorizing Sam, and ultimately getting him(and his relatives)killed? I think that would've been a better moment for her to reflect, instead of strangers out to kill them.

Yup, this should have been the reason for her weakness, at the very least. Not over total strangers who were taunting and harassing her after being captured.

 

[Javier]

I don't read the comics, so this is pure speculation on my part.

I seriously think that Rick's group is getting way too killing-happy with their methods to the point that this whole thing is going to backfire the instant Negan shows up. I really don't think we've seen even 10% of his people.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Nah, it's about staying true to the way her character has progressed for six seasons and not throwing away that progression in a few episodes with no real, convincing reasoning for doing so. It was never about her coolness.

She has been staying true to who she is. She's generally always had remorse for killing people. She's felt like complete shit since she must have had the talk with Rick where he told her that the little boy she tried to toughen up with tough love got himself, his brother, and his mother killed on top of Rick's son losing an eye. She feels responsible partly responsible since her cold love turned out to be a total fuck up. Even someone completely disgusting like the Wolf showed to be a human being by sacrificing himself to save the doc, which she didn't think it was possible.

Now she doesn't think like Morgan 2.0, but she certainly sees that there has to be some middle point. And for someone who shows remorse, it also makes sense that that shit builds and wears her down. Some of you just want a super badass. She doesn't need to be female Rick, even though we know Rick is going to dial it back at some point once again since he fluctuates after certain events.. which again is something a human being would do. It's not like she didn't kill anyone. She shot someone in the face who wasn't looking at her once Maggie and her child were in trouble, shoved someone through metal only to have her face eaten while she's alive and burned several people alive. So it's not like she's not doing badass-Coral things, but that all the killing is catching up with her, which doesn't seem unreasonable or unrealistic.

Some of you are just complaining for either things not being spelled out or wanting her to be someone else.

 

[hey_monkey]

Right, and I agree with what you're saying, but it seems strange to me that after six episodes, her ability to survive becomes impacted in such an extreme way. Felt totally out of place for her character.

Yeah, I don't think they're quite pulling it off as they should. There are good reasons behind it, but it shouldn't be so sudden and we shouldn't have to piece it together.

There are a few things that Rick's group observed during their assault on the Negan outpost and hostage experience that should cause them serious concern.

- The people they fought and killed all thought of themselves as being part of something bigger. They were all Negan. And if that wasn't troubling enough, they were willing to die defiantly as a Negan.

- The Negan group communicates using radio brevity codes and authentication, which indicates prior military experience and good training. It also indicates that they operate on a higher level of standing operations procedures.

- The Negan group has established reaction codes for crisis situations. They have a playbook, so to speak, for various situations. That also indicates good developed SOPs, training, and leadership.

They don't all know this yet - some Carol and Maggie know, some Rick and co know, and they didn't have time to talk before Rick just offed that guy like a dumb. RECON, MAN, YOU SHOULD REALLY TRY IT SOME TIME. ALSO QUESTIONING. ALSO THINKING. RIIIIIIIIICK!

 

[eyeball_kid]

Out of all the things Carol has done, Sam's death should be the least weight on her shoulders. That kid was DOA whether or not Carol ever talked to him. If anyone is to blame it's Sam's mother and her coddling. Carol just gave him a nudge off the ledge.