These things aren't mutually exclusive. Again, look at the two goals I posted up there. It comes down to how do we rehabilitate them in the hopes of getting them into society again as a functioning member (i.e. prevent crime from that same person) and how do we prevent that same crime from others. It comes down to what the crime is and the person perpetrating it. In this case I specifically said that I don't think you'll be preventing other 14 year old girls from doing this same thing by locking her up forever. Setting an example in this particular case doesn't work so well. She was obviously highly uneducated on the consequences of her actions. In the case of a child molester that might be older the prevention of other like-minded crimes is a higher priority, because they are far more aware. That's not to say lock them away and throw away the key. It needs to be a balanced approach for each individual case.
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14 year old girl has baby in toilet and then kills it
- Thread starter Zee-Row
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These things aren't mutually exclusive. Again, look at the two goals I posted up there. It comes down to how do we rehabilitate them in the hopes of getting them into society again as a functioning member (i.e. prevent crime from that same person) and how do we prevent that same crime from others. It comes down to what the crime is and the person perpetrating it. In this case I specifically said that I don't think you'll be preventing other 14 year old girls from doing this same thing by locking her up forever. Setting an example in this particular case doesn't work so well. She was obviously highly uneducated on the consequences of her actions. In the case of a child molester that might be older the prevention of other like-minded crimes is a higher priority, because they are far more aware. That's not to say lock them away and throw away the key. It needs to be a balanced approach for each individual case.
Noisy Ninj4
Member
Normal people can do horrible things under the right circumstances.
Are you making an assessment that they cannot be rehabilitated?
If so, essentially we do have the same view. I just prefer professionals make that call rather than armchair psychologists.
ReConstructDead
Member
Regardless of how succesful rehabilitation is and whether she'd get jailed or not, she's bound to get out at some point anyway.
Won't you rather have a past murderer/rapist/whatever come out rehabilitated than even more hatred filled from a terrible prison experience?
I'm making the assessment that even if there is some high made up number like a 95% chance they could be rehabilitaed that it is not worth taking that chance.
EDIT: Is there any crime that you see as not being worthy of rehabilitation?
Alligatorjandro
Banned
I guess her father was out of the picture?
I can't make threads, but anyway, this was the discussion that my reply was aimed at.
I'm just going to drop the subject though.
As if she only had her mom to talk about it to. She's in school, she had teachers and counselors to confide to, but she decided to take what she perceived as the path of least resistance. "I didn't want anybody to find out" isn't a fucking reason to murder an infant, Jesus people.
Welcome to the zero personal responsibility generation! I hope you enjoy your stay.
For adoption, she could have just put the baby on the doorstep of a hospital. No parental involvement needed. I mean even IF this was illegal, so? Wouldn't have required killing the baby. And killing it is surely illegal. Am I really arguing here, that anything but killing the baby would have been a better solution?
And it seems at least in US even abortion is possible without parental consent in some states.
should she be charged as an adult? no she shouldn't. this is a kid who did not know how to handle such a situation and didn't have anybody to help her along the way. locking her up in jail for the rest of her life isn't going to help anybody. she might still be able to become a productive citizen after some years of therapy to help her with any problems she will have because of this experience.
OmegaDragon
Member
This case is horrible, but sadly not unique. Adult women have done similar things. They are in complete denial that they are pregnant and somehow their environment has no clue either. When they give birth alone, they panic and kill the infant. A couple of years ago they found a woman who killed three or four of her childs this way, her husband had no idea. All terrible, but these people aren't evil, they are ill. And they need help.
States with safe haven laws still require attempts to locate the parent.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Which includes Florida.
It's possible in Florida, but you still need to notify a parent first - making it pretty ineffective legislation when a kid doesn't want their parent to know about it.
Right, because figuring out how we can better prevent these things through education, how we can possibly save money and help another life by rehabilitating someone, and how to overall make the system run better means that people somehow have zero personal responsibility. Personal responsibility only goes so far, especially when you're talking about a 14 year old...
They also require the person doing the act be educated on it. Better sex education with knowledge like this could go a long way in preventing this from ever happening again.
Devolution
Member
It's not possible in Florida. If people read the thread I already made the post that showed a parent had to be notified. And why would she trust any adults if it's possible the information could get back to her mother? It all revolves around her mother. It's pure ignorance to assert otherwise.
Absolutely.
She knew how to hide the pregnancy, deliver the child on her own, check the child's pulse, and how to hide the evidence of her crime. I really don't know what more she would need to do to convince you people that she knew how to handle the situation her way.
Perhaps that's because she did everything she could to prevent others from finding out?
For the rest of her life? I agree, I don't think they should impose such a sentence.
lol. Your first response is arguing that we don't have a personal responsibility problem and then you go and say it's not really her fault because we don't have proper sex education. How does more effective sex ed help a person realize that choking a baby to death is wrong?
Perhaps because her mother metaphorically stuck her fingers in her ears and didn't want to hear any of it?
When the very person you rely on for your everything thinks that such a possibility would be so bad, so horrible, that it isn't reality, what do you expect to happen?
Personal responsibility and societal prevention through education, etc, aren't mutually exclusive things.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
You think she thinks that choking a baby to death isn't wrong?
I highly doubt that mothers that kill their babies aren't aware of that particular piece of knowledge.
Desperate people just don't think rationally, and in attempting to avoid people from getting this desperate in the first place, improved sex-ed might be one of many solutions as it would ensure that these kids don't end up pregnant in the first place.
Similarly, changed attitudes at a societal level towards young and single mothers might make them feel less isolated and likely to keep their pregnancy a secret, and if abortion wasn't so looked down upon and such a shameful act for so many people, young pregnant people who don't want to a baby might just get an abortion instead.
Lol, it's in the same vein of "if I didn't have the Bible to tell me not to kill other people, I don't know what I'd do!"
Alligatorjandro
Banned
She'll probably get 5-10 years or so.
She can't drive a car. She had the baby at home while her mom was there. Please explain how she removes a crying child from the home and takes it to a hospital without her mother finding out in those circumstances. Please.
Obviously nobody is arguing the baby should have been killed, but rather that people are acting like there were obvious and simple solutions for a child under the age of 16 to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy without the help of a parent. Based on the reality of the situation, I just don't see how that's possibly true. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.
So please: explain how.
not possible as in abortion or adoption?
For adoption there would have been this:
http://www.wikihow.com/Drop-Off-an-Unwanted-Baby
http://www.nationalsafehavenalliance.org/states/florida/
And like I said - people ITT are actually saying that killing the baby was her "only" proper choice. Am I getting this right? Even IF any law specifies that a parent would be needed (in the wikihow-link nothing about that is mentioned), so? Just drop it off anyway and leave it. Even IF this was "illegal", it would still be way more legal than killing the baby.
Here is the actual law for florida:
http://safehavenlaws.uslegal.com/florida-safe-haven-law/
(mother as in baby's mother of course)
There is a) public transport and b) walking. I mean this isn't meant seriously? This can't be meant seriously. How was it possible for her to get to school?
She was the only person that she could have turned to? Teachers, friends, nobody else?
Oh please, she falsified a pregnancy test on the only occasion that's being reported where she confronted her about the issue. There's no evidence that her daughter knew the extent of her mother's denial (if it was that extensive, you people are taking one person's use of "denial" and running very haphazardly with it).
Devolution
Member
Abortion wouldn't be possible. Mother would have to be notified.
Adoption you're asking for a 14 yr old to somehow sneak the infant out of the house and to a safe place to drop it off.
As I've already mentioned the options people keep posting don't really hold up to scrutiny if she was scared shitless about her mother figuring out.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I'm not sure any of that is a possible course of action for a minor.
Exactly. I think anyone with some insight into mental heath can begin to understand why this happened, because this is not a unique case. Those who empathise with her aren't suggesting that she should be unpunished and back at school next week. We understand that she's not evil, but very ill and needs a lot of help.
As already mentioned, the fact that she took scissors to her genitals is an indication of this. She also went through a full birth on her own without any drugs, without any experts to keep things safe and to reassure her. She would have went through a lot of pain giving birth to a full size baby with her small frame, and also remember that since she hadn't seen a doctor, she would have no due date so the day of birth would have been unexpected.
Also the fact that she didn't conceal the body well at all (in her clothing hamper) suggests to me that she was in a state of panic and that this wasn't her plan the entire time she was pregnant.
[E] Although a good point that somebody made earlier is how did her pregnancy not attract the attention of her teachers?
Not enough people have pointed out that your post is abhorrent.
What you are stating is that you have no issues giving parents the privilege of ending a child's life after it no longer requires the mother's body to sustain itself (for the period of time that they are considered babies). The problem is, at that point those same parents don't have to be the ones to raise the child, and have the means to get rid of him/her without killing him/her. It is because of those alternatives that a "post-birth abortion" is not and should never be legal.
Basically, this girl waited until the very moment that she no longer needed to kill the child to get rid of it, and then she went ahead and killed it.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Yeah, people are seriously overestimating the rational ability of a woman who has suddenly given birth on her own, with the aid of a pair of scissors, without any pain killers whatsoever.
On top of all that, she was 14 years old.
On top of all that, she was 14 years old.
Her child minded way. She´s a kid! Do you remember how your brainwaves worked when you where a teen? She was scared, and did a horrible thing, but locking her up won´t fix it.
I'm from the rural south. Off the top of my head, I know of five friends that all had children at her age. Strangely enough, all of those children are alive and well today and not buried in a clothes hamper.
Who's arguing against "appropriate" punishment? This is getting ridiculous. We're arguing about what is the appropriate punishment. I don't think anyone is saying no punishment at all, and she should be in school next week. We're just arguing agains the other end of the extreme of lock her up and throw away the key forever. Reality should be somewhere in the gray between those two extremes.
Also, psychologically and societally we have determined that most teenagers are "empty-headed," at least when compared to adults. They're still developing.
But the parents knew about the pregnancy, didn´t they?
She knew well in advance that she was pregnant, and had lots of time to look into her options. It's not like she just woke up one day and gave birth a couple hours later.
She is accountable for the fact that she chose murder as her course of action in spite of the time she had to research other options.
EDIT: The argument that she's not accountable because she's only a teenager does not fly here. The real question is: because she's a teenager, how should the consequences differ from an equivalent situation involving an adult mother?
Since they didn't go out of their way to hide their pregnancies or to falsify pregnancy tests, yes.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
I dont think someone like her should be having sex.
Noisy Ninj4
Member
Pretty sure the post was not made in a serious tone. It's still abhorrent, just for different reasons.
Unless it was serious, in which case I invoke Poe's Law.
That's where the sex ed could have helped and completely prevented the situation. Teens are confused about sex, not about the morality of murdering a newborn.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Having both first-hand and second-hand experience with teenagers, and having scientific data to back it up, I can safely say that a teenager (especially such a young one as this one) is a lot less rational than an adult
That is of course relevant in determining how one should treat them if they commit a crime.
No one is saying that she is innocent, or that she should get away with a slap on the wrist.
Not everyone grows up in an environment where it´s fine to have babies at the age of 14. They where lucky their parents gave them the opportunity/feeling they could be open about it. Not everyone gets that chance.
Devolution
Member
Pretty sure her morality became warped and under her mother's discretion. That's kind of the point here. If getting in trouble with mom ranks higher than murdering a newborn one must question how this particular child was raised.
Being less rational than an adult certainly isn't justification for giving her as light of a sentence as some in here are suggesting. Scientific data has shown that the brain is still developing in ways well into a person's twenties, that certainly shouldn't give me a slap on the wrist (in comparison to, say, 5-15 years in jail) if I decide to commit a crime of this caliber.Having both first-hand and second-hand experience with teenagers, and having scientific data to back it up, I can safely say that a teenager (especially such a young one as this one) is a lot less rational than an adult
I agree. How relevant it should be, however, is something we seem to disagree on.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Rehabilitative sentencing is to many people preferable than straight-up punishment, especially in a case such as this.
It's more likely to help her as she is young and has plenty of mental development left, which is preferable to the alternative to trying her for manslaughter, turn her into a hardened criminal in jail for 5-15 years, and have her continuously cause problems as she is released into society.
Doesn't mean that what she did was any less horrible or a tragic loss.
How light do you think some people here are suggesting she be treated?
Mackenzie 92
Member
Why do you think you are an expert on this girls psychology? At this point it's impossible to know exactly what was going on in her head.
What we do know is that it's pretty clear she didn't intentionally get pregnant with the motive to hide the pregnancy and then strangle her newborn child and that is how you're approaching it, which is ridiculous.
You're also completely ignoring all of the things going on inside her head and body during the pregnancy. Grown women with a support network have intense trouble dealing with everything, and this girl was hiding it and living in this warped reality. For all we know this was her only option in her mind and the only way out. Clearly she is sick and needs help and hopefully she gets it wherever she ends up.
Her mother could have prevented all of this, and that is the saddest thing about all of this.
And again, no one is suggesting she get a slap on the wrist.
I certainly never said that their parents were fine with it, mostly because I'm only close friends with one. I think the parents were upset, but were against abortion or adoption and wanted her to "take responsibility and raise the child". Or something.
It also doesn't say in the article, or even imply, that her mom wouldn't have been accepting of it. By asking her to do a pregnancy test twice, the mother at least acknowledged the possibility of the pregnancy, which is pretty responsible in itself.
As I said before, you guys are putting way too much stock in a single statement by an officer. Denial could mean that she completely shut off the idea of her child being pregnant (she didn't, as evidence by the pregnancy tests), or it could mean that the mother was naive and trusted her daughter's words more than she should have. I'm not sure how you could say that the daughter's morality was actively perverted by her mother's influence based on what we know.
I can't really judge fully on this until I know more about what happened and the motivation behind the 14 years old actions.
There is nothing stopping people at this age to be very selfish, ruthless and callous, but there might be some aspects of this in addition to the difficult situation of the pregnancy that are quite relevant such as if her mother would have forced her to go with pregnancy or not.
Either way once it was too late unfortunately her only (correct) choice after the child was born or at the last possible time were it was going to be born is to let it and give it to another family or to her own family. But she is not an adult and she was in a difficult situation. I think due to age and other factors a punishment where if she does anything quite serious again this action's consequences would be added to the new one, as additional thing to judge and punish could be fair in addition to other measures to rehabilitate and guarantee mental well being, that don't have to do with prison. Perhaps a form of probation, so she does not go in prison but it is not completely forgotten and forgiven either although so far she does not do anything really bad she should not have to stand punishment for it.
There is nothing stopping people at this age to be very selfish, ruthless and callous, but there might be some aspects of this in addition to the difficult situation of the pregnancy that are quite relevant such as if her mother would have forced her to go with pregnancy or not.
Either way once it was too late unfortunately her only (correct) choice after the child was born or at the last possible time were it was going to be born is to let it and give it to another family or to her own family. But she is not an adult and she was in a difficult situation. I think due to age and other factors a punishment where if she does anything quite serious again this action's consequences would be added to the new one, as additional thing to judge and punish could be fair in addition to other measures to rehabilitate and guarantee mental well being, that don't have to do with prison. Perhaps a form of probation, so she does not go in prison but it is not completely forgotten and forgiven either although so far she does not do anything really bad she should not have to stand punishment for it.
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