Support NeoGAF

[SnakeswithLasers]

As for the bike, go with 500cc or under. I realise some people here are saying higher is fine, but the statistics don't lie: first time riders with racing style bikes over 500cc tend to get into more crashes, especially fatal ones.

This this this.

I've been riding for about 6 months now and my first bike is a Suzuki GS500. It's got great acceleration--quicker off the line than 90% of the cars I encounter--and it goes plenty fast (if I catch myself going 80 or 85, I notice I'm not redlined and have a whole extra gear to play with). However, there have been a lot of close calls that I've had because of beginner mistakes where I've revved it too hard, or done other silly things, and the bike has been very forgiving, but also very instructive that I'm doing something wrong.

Edit:

I don't really have much desire to go above 500cc that's why I've only even looked at 250 and 500.

You'll probably be able to find a Ninja 500 that's a few years old for a steal... I hear those are awesome fun.

 

[thesoapster]

As for the bike, go with 500cc or under. I realise some people here are saying higher is fine, but the statistics don't lie: first time riders with racing style bikes over 500cc tend to get into more crashes, especially fatal ones.

You don't suppose that's due to people desiring the pretty race replicas who don't know what they're doing at all, not getting good gear, hopping on, and then wanting to go show off? In my oversized post below I talk about how some students (particularly one) in my MSF class just couldn't operate the 250s effectively.

Well, I mentioned the 650s like the Suzuki and Ninja, they are still twin cylinder. I thought the stats showed people riding on I-4 super bikes as their first, but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, I know all to many people that end up on a CBR 600 or 1000 for their first bike and they either wreck and never get back on one because they are scared, or the bike just scares the hell out of them and they don't catch the fever. My Nighthawk is a 700 I-4, but it's extremely tame compared to any crotch rocket.

I took MSF and got a used 04 CBR600RR. I had to work my way into it for sure as there's so much different from the little 250 standard (significantly slower than a Ninja 250R) and a supersport. I took it nice and slow. The hardest part is just developing the reflexes to riding (something everyone has to do). It honestly wasn't too bad. I think I would have learned low speed maneuvering a bit easier/faster on a standard. And in general I think riders tend to learn faster on smaller machines and become better riders faster. It's easy to spot riders who have started too big for themselves/moved up too soon. I organized a ride that included one of my friends (on an R6), and then two guys who both had R1s. I was on my R1. Holy god. My friend (again, on a 600) and I smoked the shit out of them (we're talking waiting 15 seconds at stop signs/turns) by just cruising the backroads (spirited, sure...but not trying to really do much). Turns out they generally cruised the highways. I didn't learn to push my CBR too much. My 750 was the first bike I really gave a good flogging to. Learning throttle control and a lot of the basics can occur early on, but really, to advance yourself you have to put yourself on roads that will actually test you. I've mentioned before that I think I could've learned faster/gotten more out of my first bike if I had instead chosen an SV650S. The 650 V-twin is really quite good. They have a good bit of punch (especially down low) as virtually all twins do, but not nearly the HP. Still in the real world it was about dead even with my 600RR up until past 100mph or so.

600 i4s and 650 twins are both big for beginners, but I, and everyone I've ridden with who have started on them, have been successful. I know it's not necessarily the best option, but I really don't think it's a bad option to pursue. I got a 600 with beat up fairings that was mechanically sound and it was good for me. Never dropped it, but that doesn't mean it's not a bad idea to buy used.

Since riding a literbike for about 7600 miles, I can testify (and not just repeat) that there is a big difference between a 600 and a 1000. I would never, ever, ever, EVER tell someone to get a 1000 for their first bike. Horrible idea. A lot of people talk about how 1000s are very "unforgiving" of rider error. This is true, and a 600 has a much wider margin of error. STILL, some people just really do not pick up on riding as well as others.

There were people in the MSF riding off the course, through the chain boundaries. We had already covered two nights in class how to operate a motorcycle and had practiced riding that first on-course day. We had learned throttle and clutch control, how to kill the bike, etc. That student eventually panicked and slammed on the brakes, stopping the bike and killing it, and then dropped it from losing balance. She failed the course during the test, and during practice dropped the bike quite a number of other times. Even if she passed the course I'd be hesitant to even recommend a Ninja 250R for her (or really...anything...at least until she improved). Part of her panic reaction even seemed like she may have jerked the throttle at some point. Bad idea on a 600 (REALLY bad on a 1000). So, yes, you need to have a high degree of responsibility, sense of ability and personal boundary, and be able to handle a motorcycle well in general before trying to tackle a middleweight. Even if you're "hot stuff" compared to the average beginner you really have to learn to work within your limits and know when it's OK to push them and when it's not OK. Best to not test your tolerance to twisting the throttle wide open in second gear while in traffic, for example.

I typed too much thanks to my boring as shit class I'm in right now. Sorry :lol

About to pull the trigger on a Triumph branded AStar RC1 jacket. 25% off MSRP at the local dealer.

Pics! (preferably your own after you get it)

 

[ChanHuk]

I still stress that it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than it is to ride a fast bike slow.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

daw and soapster: I'm not in any way trying to attack your decisions on your first bikes. It's obvious you knew what you were both doing. However, riding a bike, as you'll agree, essentially comes down to managing risk. One of those risks involves the speed of a beginner's bike, and statiscally it is one of the major ones.

So when taking into account a new rider, it's always best to go for a beginner bike: after all it has these benefits:

-Less powerful so if you twist the throttle, you don't go from 10km/h to 60km/h instantaneously
-Costs less to purchase
-Much less in insurance fees, especially considering a 'high-risk' class like a new rider
-Can easily be sold to another new rider for a good percentage (usually somewhere between 75-90%) of the original buyer's cost.

The one real downside of not having one's "dream bike" off the bat, or getting bored with the lower powered bike, in my opinion, pales compared to the risks of getting something too much to handle and the overall benefits of a lower powered bike.

Obviously you both have carefully thought about your driving decisions and you've come out ahead, but no statistic will ever come out to 100%... you're the "lucky" ones (and I don't say "lucky" to infer that you lack skill and chance is the only reason why you're still around posting here).

I mean, I understand. I started on a 500cc (actually it was another Shadow, what a coinkidink) rather than a lower powered bike. Looking back though, I had a few calls close enough where I wish I had started on a 250cc instead, and those incidents were all my n00bish doing.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Mr Sandman]

Little adventure I went on today. I was tearing up the mud hills where the snow melted away. So fun drifting!

Man it looks so off with that broken handguard. :lol Ah well, $12 fix.

(And yup she's street legal, the plate's just not visible)

 

[thesoapster]

I understand what you're saying and I always tell people many of the pros and cons you listed. However with 250s around here rarely being sold (500s rarer yet), and at nearly no price loss, it can definitely be cheaper/easier to get a well-used 600. Plenty of older ones are available that would perform more like a 500 than a 600. Don't necessarily need the era of sportbike sold today. Again, I may be in what you'd consider to be a smaller group for successfully starting on a middleweight, but as I've mentioned all the riders I've known who started on a middleweight have been OK thus far, one of which being the guy that rode with me on the R6, and he can keep up quite well. And who said anything about dream bikes? I never tell riders to buy their dream bike for the first. My CBR was far from my dream bike (was the Daytona 675 at the time), but it definitely worked. It was beaten and not overly pretty, but it really helped me understand many facts about sportbikes.

I do think there is a large connection between unqualified riders and them buying a middleweight sportbike for the first bike and the look/appeal of the machines. A lot of that has to do with manufacturers (talking about the Big Four here) making their most attractive (IMO) bikes the ones that are modeled after racing classes. Some people just want a bike to show off on. You see these sorts on YouTube all the time making fools of themselves. I think because of their looks, sportbikes tend to attract more idiots in general (and I've seen tards on all types of bikes). Kawasaki is the only one now who actually makes an attractive <600CC sportbike in my book. And the way their prices are and the way their markups go it's definitely definitely cheaper to hunt for an older used 600 than an 08 and up 250R.

But yes. I always try and tell new riders that they'll likely progress faster than I did if they start a bit smaller. For performance riding the goal is to attain high speeds and be quick throughout a course and to actually get as close to the edge of the bike's performance envelope as you can. Learning to push to the envelope on a 250 or a 500 is going to be easier than a 600, especially with the way 600 i4s are geared. I can't safely get to the edge of my R1's performance envelope on the street. I can max out maybe the first few gears, and I'll be hitting 130 MPH or so without much trouble (my bike doesn't really reward that kind of riding as much anyway, as it's the strongest 1000 below 5 grand or so).

I agree about the general power of the bike being a risk/safety factor. It's all in throttle control. I didn't have much of an issue in that department. The MSF course actually worked quite well for me I think. But yes, to be on the safer side a new rider should opt for a slower machine. I felt I had developed a good handle on it by the time I was out of the course. That along with the advice of the Rider Coaches and some other riders I felt I would be OK with the CBR, and I was. Not for everyone, but I really cannot say there is any good rule about these things. Some will kill themselves on a 250 (like that person I had mentioned from the course...eek). I suppose if we are to assume new riders have a hard time with the right wrist = power and being able to finely adjust that, then a less powerful bike would be more helpful. I always say to those that I feel COULD ride a middleweight after the course that they really need to be sure to take it easy with the throttle and to not push themselves too fast. Overconfidence (especially when entering turns) leads to panic, accidents, etc. 2nd edit: This applies to riders of any level. It's what caused one of my friends (did not start on a middleweight, btw) to take his GSX-R into a guardrail. He's an experienced rider.

edit: Sweet stuff, Sandman

 

[Kentpaul]

Moped gaffer reporting in.

Why is it when i drive past kids they always jump up and down and cheer, shout and are just joyfull to see a moped ?

 

[Mr Sandman]

Moped gaffer reporting in.

Why is it when i drive past kids they always jump up and down and cheer, shout and are just joyfull to see a moped ?

School buses are the fucking worst. :lol

edit: Sweet stuff, Sandman

Thanks man!

 

[sasimirobot]

Yeah I love the interesting attention a scooter brings in America. A lot of thumbs up from everyone from Grandmas to Harley Bikers!

(I sometimes, at traffic lights, do the point to your eyes with 2 fingers, point to their eyes and then point to the distance like you want to race with Harley dudes. Always gets a laugh!)

The best part is the puzzled looks from gas station workers when you ask for 2.30$ in gas, and only see them a few times a month.

Is it that they feel that scooters are dangerous because of the lack of power? Or that you are some sort of modern nerd-rebel? Or maybe that having the balls to look like a complete dork in traffic?

Don't know. But scooters are one of the funnest and happiest times I have ever had in traffic.

 

[JayDub]

daw and soapster: I'm not in any way trying to attack your decisions on your first bikes. It's obvious you knew what you were both doing. However, riding a bike, as you'll agree, essentially comes down to managing risk. One of those risks involves the speed of a beginner's bike, and statiscally it is one of the major ones.

So when taking into account a new rider, it's always best to go for a beginner bike: after all it has these benefits:

-Less powerful so if you twist the throttle, you don't go from 10km/h to 60km/h instantaneously
-Costs less to purchase
-Much less in insurance fees, especially considering a 'high-risk' class like a new rider
-Can easily be sold to another new rider for a good percentage (usually somewhere between 75-90%) of the original buyer's cost.

The one real downside of not having one's "dream bike" off the bat, or getting bored with the lower powered bike, in my opinion, pales compared to the risks of getting something too much to handle and the overall benefits of a lower powered bike.

Obviously you both have carefully thought about your driving decisions and you've come out ahead, but no statistic will ever come out to 100%... you're the "lucky" ones (and I don't say "lucky" to infer that you lack skill and chance is the only reason why you're still around posting here).

I mean, I understand. I started on a 500cc (actually it was another Shadow, what a coinkidink) rather than a lower powered bike. Looking back though, I had a few calls close enough where I wish I had started on a 250cc instead, and those incidents were all my n00bish doing.

I hope that clears things up.

Agreed. Everyone's got to keep in mind; the experienced riders will all push you towards a bike thats more beginner friendly, but thats because it frees up mindshare to learn things that could mean the difference of life or death. When you dont have to worry about twitchy throttle response that could lift the front wheels at a whim, or have to worry about being uncomfortable with the riding position, you free up your mind to worry about proper leaning, (if new to manual) learning to shift, learning to feather the brakes, learning the brakes in general (remember, the left lever is the clutch:lol), emergency maneuvers and being comfortable on 2 wheels.

Learning to lane split (where legal) on a super sport is hell on earth, I can tell you.

But remember, mistakes are mistakes. You can make the same mistakes on a 250 that you could make on a Ducati. The difference is learning on something more manageable.

 

[daw840]

Yeah I love the interesting attention a scooter brings in America. A lot of thumbs up from everyone from Grandmas to Harley Bikers!

(I sometimes, at traffic lights, do the point to your eyes with 2 fingers, point to their eyes and then point to the distance like you want to race with Harley dudes. Always gets a laugh!)

The best part is the puzzled looks from gas station workers when you ask for 2.30$ in gas, and only see them a few times a month.

Is it that they feel that scooters are dangerous because of the lack of power? Or that you are some sort of modern nerd-rebel? Or maybe that having the balls to look like a complete dork in traffic?

Don't know. But scooters are one of the funnest and happiest times I have ever had in traffic.

I would never ride a scooter in traffic. Being able to get out of the way with the flick of a wrist has saved my ass a few times. I see some of these guys out on 45-55mph roads in traffic on a Vespa with flip flops, shorts, and a t-shirt on because they think that scooters are somehow safer. Got news for them, asphalt doesn't give a shit about the CC rating on your bike, or how you sit on it.

 

[JayDub]

I would never ride a scooter in traffic. Being able to get out of the way with the flick of a wrist has saved my ass a few times. I see some of these guys out on 45-55mph roads in traffic on a Vespa with flip flops, shorts, and a t-shirt on because they think that scooters are somehow safer. Got news for them, asphalt doesn't give a shit about the CC rating on your bike, or how you sit on it.

Get on a 150cc (and Im not even talking Goldwing levels of scooting) and these scooters will flick in and out of traffic and dangerous situations as well as keep up with traffic.

 

[thesoapster]

. . .When you dont have to worry about twitchy throttle response that could lift the front wheels at a whim. . .

What? You'd need a bottom end powerful/light enough twin or a 1000 to be able to twitch a bike's front end up. Most 600s can go full on gas in a corner and not lose traction (assuming they have a good set of sport/street tires). The best you can usually do is crack the throttle while using the fork compression to pop up the front end. And again, if your idea of smoothly opening the throttle is to do that, you probably would not pass MSF anyway. I do tend to push towards more "friendly" bikes than 600s, but I'm not sure if you'd consider me experienced. I have a little under 18,000 miles since I started in June of 2007, the majority of which have been corner-laden backroads. I don't really like highways much.

And you're right, mistakes are more manageable on a smaller bike. But it wouldn't hurt to clarify what kinds of mistakes we're talking about here. I actually don't think most beginners who get hurt on 600s have problems with throttle control, but rather misjudgment. They tend to not realize how deep those curves really are. Once you acclimate (which takes little time) to the sense of speed on a sportbike, it doesn't feel like you're doing 75 in a 30. You're like oh la dee dah, here comes the 25 mph curve. And then as you approach, oh wai...

Usually at those moments a lot of bikers lock up their brakes and run into shit, or do some other such nonsense. Assuming a new rider in a similar scenario approaching a curve is either on an EX500 or a 600 i4 the only difference really is going to be how quickly/easily they can reach a higher speed. A lot of middleweights (as I'm sure you know) don't start getting fast until around 10 grand. Twins have more bottom/mid. If anything I'd want a RR in that scenario for the better brakes...

edit: And yeah daw, check out some of the large scooters. They get moving. Most get on the 49cc ones here in MD because you don't have to register them (so they don't need a helmet or anything, and of course no license plate).

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

How hot do non-vented gloves get? I'm kind of leaning towards normal or I'll need a second pair when it gets cold if I get vented over normal.

 

[thesoapster]

How hot do non-vented gloves get? I'm kind of leaning towards normal or I'll need a second pair when it gets cold if I get vented over normal.

Eh, depends. Cold weather gloves that are not vented will get real damn hot (see your avatar). Usually if you want to ride in all seasons you'll need at least two pairs (depends on where you live, really). My Spidi Penta gloves have some venting but no much. They're not bad, even in the hot (90 degrees and up even) weather. The Race Vent gloves feel amazing in warm weather, but I can wear the Pentas comfortably in the low 50s, plus they're just better gloves all around. Once it dips below that I usually wear cold weather gloves with a warm inner coating, no venting. The ones I have were actually given to me by a shop I have work done at that they had made. I bet Flo Evans has made use of some cold weather gloves with some of his escapades. If you want something for 50 degrees and up with max protection look at some of the GP style gauntlet gloves (my Pentas fall into this category). They usually have little to no perforation (for safety), maybe some venting, but can be worn comfortably because unlike a cold weather glove they don't put insulating material inside.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Eh, depends. Cold weather gloves that are not vented will get real damn hot (see your avatar). Usually if you want to ride in all seasons you'll need at least two pairs (depends on where you live, really). My Spidi Penta gloves have some venting but no much. They're not bad, even in the hot (90 degrees and up even) weather. The Race Vent gloves feel amazing in warm weather, but I can wear the Pentas comfortably in the low 50s, plus they're just better gloves all around. Once it dips below that I usually wear cold weather gloves with a warm inner coating, no venting. The ones I have were actually given to me by a shop I have work done at that they had made. I bet Flo Evans has made use of some cold weather gloves with some of his escapades. If you want something for 50 degrees and up with max protection look at some of the GP style gauntlet gloves (my Pentas fall into this category). They usually have little to no perforation (for safety), maybe some venting, but can be worn comfortably because unlike a cold weather glove they don't put insulating material inside.

Are Penta an older model? I can't seem to find them online at a store. I'm trying to decide between the Spidi I posted and Held Pole Position gloves.

 

[thesoapster]

Are Penta an older model? I can't seem to find them online at a store. I'm trying to decide between the Spidi I posted and Held Pole Position gloves.

Pentas were designed by Colin Edwards (who wears Spidi) together with Spidi some time ago. I wouldn't call them old per se. They're still a top shelf glove that design-wise competes with the Held Phantom.

These are the Pentas

Between the Race Vent and those Held gloves, the Race Vent will be more ventilated and are not going to be good outside of warmer weather. They also have less armor than those Held gloves. I have not owned Held gloves before, but I have heard very, very good things about them. The only negative thing I've heard is that recently some of their gloves are being made in a different country from where they used to be. Someone on a sportbike forum crash tested a bunch of gloves, and even though the materials that make up the Phantoms are the best (kangaroo and motherfucking STINGRAY), the Phantoms, along with the Dainese X Metal gloves both didn't perform as well as Alpinestars' gloves. I don't think he had a chance to crash test the Pentas, but said there was extra stitching in the outside areas where some of the other gloves failed. This stitching was also present on the A* gloves, possibly helping to give them an edge.

I'd still buy those Held gloves over the Spidi Race Vent ones. In terms of actually finding Spidi stuff it's kind of a bitch now because you can get it from Kneedraggers and then you can get it from a dealership that's like...30 minutes away from me (which has been quite nice for me, as I've had them order stuff from EU that's not around here).

Look at the STG page for them. http://stores.sportbiketrackgear.com/Detail.bok?no=6903

Have you considered the Spidi Sportcomposite-R gloves? They have some perforation around the gauntlet (though the gauntlet goes over your jacket/suit cuffs, so it wouldn't be much of an issue I'd think), but even the Held gloves have some above the wrist area. These gloves are considerably cheaper than the Held ones and look to have solid construction (full gauntlet, extra stitching on outer finger, etc).

 

[Ptaaty]

Here's mine.

1700CC air cooled Vtwin.

All you guys and your little bikes. 500cc is only good for off road. I've had a couple rockets (R1, YZF600R) but have been loving my cruiser.

I am a fair weather guy though. I only ride when I know it isn't going to rain and it isn't dropping below 40F.

I taught my friend to ride on a CBR929RR. He has now ridden years without issue. I also know someone on a smaller bike who nearly died from an 15 mph accident. Between your ears is what is important.

 

[thesoapster]

Here's mine.

1700CC air cooled Vtwin.

http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs159.snc1/5929_1021074182576_1696858639_38838_5051952_n.jpg

All you guys and your little bikes. 500cc is only good for off road. I've had a couple rockets (R1, YZF600R) but have been loving my cruiser.

I am a fair weather guy though. I only ride when I know it isn't going to rain and it isn't dropping below 40F.

I taught my friend to ride on a CBR929RR. He has now ridden years without issue. I also know someone on a smaller bike who nearly died from an 15 mph accident. Between your ears is what is important.

A 929 you say...

There are a handful of people who have started on 1000s and been OK, but they are rare. Even if they are OK they may never learn to push themselves as much as if they had started smaller (I think I may be a quicker rider now if I had started a bit smaller). The guys my friend and I rode with were on 1000s and were riding "OK". One started on his R1, the other spent a little time riding an R6 on highways then moved to an R1 (he told me while talking he wanted to go back to a 600 because he felt he switched too soon and it was too much power for him). Frankly, they sucked at cornering.

What's between your ears is largely determined by years and miles of experience, and even someone who is responsible and all can still make mistakes. I've never known anyone who just hopped onto a sportbike and was a "natural" in that they were smooth, quick, had the proper reflexes, took good cornering lines, etc. That's why I always caution those who are set on starting on a 600 (like I did) to be especially careful. I remember what the feeling of power was like. Having nearly double the torque and an extra 60HP won't really help out much.

I ride in the same conditions as you. 40+, dry. Should be getting some sweet riding in pretty soon. My bike is a year old in two days! Hope to get 10,000 miles done this season. This past one was about 7,600.

 

[Darth Pinche]

I'll chime in with my 929 story. When I first started learning, my buddy lent me his Honda 929RR to ride around in his parking lot to "practice". Well, I was way to jerky with the throttle, the bike surged, my weight shifted back and I rolled the throttle back even more. I then found myself rocketing towards his brand new truck!. I panicked and threw the bike and myself down, scraping to a stop 2 inches from his truck. Luckily I had on good gear, but did burn a hole in my jeans. It happened all so fast it was shocking! I apologized and bought him a new fairing for his bike. I then promptly enrolled ina MSF course, then bought a Ninja 250 to really learn on. I rode that for over a year and then bought my current Yamaha FZ6 which is a fantastic all around bike.
You can start on a liter bike, but the margin for error is so small when you are learning all the nuances of riding, I totally recommend starting smaller and building your skills. I was lucky my bonehead moves did not cause more damage or injury. The scars on my jacket are a nice reminder for me.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Pentas were designed by Colin Edwards (who wears Spidi) together with Spidi some time ago. I wouldn't call them old per se. They're still a top shelf glove that design-wise competes with the Held Phantom.

These are the Pentas

Between the Race Vent and those Held gloves, the Race Vent will be more ventilated and are not going to be good outside of warmer weather. They also have less armor than those Held gloves. I have not owned Held gloves before, but I have heard very, very good things about them. The only negative thing I've heard is that recently some of their gloves are being made in a different country from where they used to be. Someone on a sportbike forum crash tested a bunch of gloves, and even though the materials that make up the Phantoms are the best (kangaroo and motherfucking STINGRAY), the Phantoms, along with the Dainese X Metal gloves both didn't perform as well as Alpinestars' gloves. I don't think he had a chance to crash test the Pentas, but said there was extra stitching in the outside areas where some of the other gloves failed. This stitching was also present on the A* gloves, possibly helping to give them an edge.

I'd still buy those Held gloves over the Spidi Race Vent ones. In terms of actually finding Spidi stuff it's kind of a bitch now because you can get it from Kneedraggers and then you can get it from a dealership that's like...30 minutes away from me (which has been quite nice for me, as I've had them order stuff from EU that's not around here).

Look at the STG page for them. http://stores.sportbiketrackgear.com/Detail.bok?no=6903

Have you considered the Spidi Sportcomposite-R gloves? They have some perforation around the gauntlet (though the gauntlet goes over your jacket/suit cuffs, so it wouldn't be much of an issue I'd think), but even the Held gloves have some above the wrist area. These gloves are considerably cheaper than the Held ones and look to have solid construction (full gauntlet, extra stitching on outer finger, etc).

Composite gloves are fine then? I remember you disliking things not leather for jackets but I wasn't sure if it carried over to other things so I've been looking at leather gloves. Gloves, like I said, I have no idea what exactly I should be looking at so I've mostly gone by recommendations or prices. I guess those Penta are europe only then? That's probably why I couldn't find them at all last night. Is there a good site to go to for reviews on motorcycle equipment? I guess I should start looking at some reviews for gloves. I just don't know what sites are good at reviewing.

Edit: These gloves are cool looking too... http://www.kneedraggers.com/details/Dainese_Joust_Leather_Gloves--654751.html

 

[thesoapster]

I'm not quite sure about gear review. I think a lot of it has to do with word of mouth. Check motorcycle-specific forums for gear reports. Sportbike Track Gear does a lot of YouTube reviews. Back when MotoNation was the importer for Spidi products into the US (no more), they did this video on the Sportcomposite-R http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48S-fy-jcc

They haven't stocked anymore there since MotoNation stopped carrying Spidi it seems. Regardless, virtually every racing/sport glove is a "composite" glove. They make use of other materials for armor and reinforcement points. That Sportcomposite-R glove is still almost entirely leather. My point about leather with jackets was about textile jackets vs leather and how form fitting (no rippling tendency) clothing performs much better in a slide. The top safety gear is still leather IMO. I made mention of the Dainese D-Stone material that is supposed to be a good alternative/better (those gloves you linked use them alongside leather). I haven't really looked that far into it, and if it did provide better protection I'd be inclined to think it would start appearing on race circuits. Dainese still sells a ton of leather suits, and pro racers obviously are using leather suits. Plus, I hate how textiles flap in the wind. That's not to say they cannot do a good job of protecting you, but at this point I'd still feel better with my kangaroo leather jacket or cowhide suit over a textile product.

As for the gloves, yes, they look nice. Virtually all of these products are meant to look nice. I'm surprised you haven't really linked to Alpinestars apparel yet, as they have some tempting products as well. I'd get a list of products you're interested in and start searching around the 'net for reviews/testimonies on the gear.

 

[JayDub]

What? You'd need a bottom end powerful/light enough twin or a 1000 to be able to twitch a bike's front end up. Most 600s can go full on gas in a corner and not lose traction (assuming they have a good set of sport/street tires). The best you can usually do is crack the throttle while using the fork compression to pop up the front end. And again, if your idea of smoothly opening the throttle is to do that, you probably would not pass MSF anyway. I do tend to push towards more "friendly" bikes than 600s, but I'm not sure if you'd consider me experienced. I have a little under 18,000 miles since I started in June of 2007, the majority of which have been corner-laden backroads. I don't really like highways much.

And you're right, mistakes are more manageable on a smaller bike. But it wouldn't hurt to clarify what kinds of mistakes we're talking about here. I actually don't think most beginners who get hurt on 600s have problems with throttle control, but rather misjudgment. They tend to not realize how deep those curves really are. Once you acclimate (which takes little time) to the sense of speed on a sportbike, it doesn't feel like you're doing 75 in a 30. You're like oh la dee dah, here comes the 25 mph curve. And then as you approach, oh wai...

Usually at those moments a lot of bikers lock up their brakes and run into shit, or do some other such nonsense. Assuming a new rider in a similar scenario approaching a curve is either on an EX500 or a 600 i4 the only difference really is going to be how quickly/easily they can reach a higher speed. A lot of middleweights (as I'm sure you know) don't start getting fast until around 10 grand. Twins have more bottom/mid. If anything I'd want a RR in that scenario for the better brakes...

edit: And yeah daw, check out some of the large scooters. They get moving. Most get on the 49cc ones here in MD because you don't have to register them (so they don't need a helmet or anything, and of course no license plate).

I've known people who started on 600SS but most of my buds are taller and heavier, so they tend to lean towards the 1000s. Thats when they eat the shit.

My point was two fold: starting on a supersport dont necessarily mean death, it just means you have more things to worry about. What I mean by that is you can get into the same problems with a smaller bike as you can with a bigger bike. Your example of the brakes locking up is spot on, as that can happen on any bike.

Its the same reason why I recommend getting used, cheaper bikes to start on. As when you're on a new bike (even for me, nowadays), I'm always worried about the tiniest little scratch on my $10,000K+ baby. Its not life threatening, its just one more thing to worry about.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I'm not quite sure about gear review. I think a lot of it has to do with word of mouth. Check motorcycle-specific forums for gear reports. Sportbike Track Gear does a lot of YouTube reviews. Back when MotoNation was the importer for Spidi products into the US (no more), they did this video on the Sportcomposite-R http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48S-fy-jcc

They haven't stocked anymore there since MotoNation stopped carrying Spidi it seems. Regardless, virtually every racing/sport glove is a "composite" glove. They make use of other materials for armor and reinforcement points. That Sportcomposite-R glove is still almost entirely leather. My point about leather with jackets was about textile jackets vs leather and how form fitting (no rippling tendency) clothing performs much better in a slide. The top safety gear is still leather IMO. I made mention of the Dainese D-Stone material that is supposed to be a good alternative/better (those gloves you linked use them alongside leather). I haven't really looked that far into it, and if it did provide better protection I'd be inclined to think it would start appearing on race circuits. Dainese still sells a ton of leather suits, and pro racers obviously are using leather suits. Plus, I hate how textiles flap in the wind. That's not to say they cannot do a good job of protecting you, but at this point I'd still feel better with my kangaroo leather jacket or cowhide suit over a textile product.

As for the gloves, yes, they look nice. Virtually all of these products are meant to look nice. I'm surprised you haven't really linked to Alpinestars apparel yet, as they have some tempting products as well. I'd get a list of products you're interested in and start searching around the 'net for reviews/testimonies on the gear.

Some Alpinestars are nice but I think their logo is extremely ugly so it decreases the group by a lot from the start. I have another question though, I think this Dainese jacket is the best looking yet Retro Pelle. Does anyone know what their Composite protectors certified to EN 1621.1/97 StandardPocket for backspace G1 and G2 means? I'm assuming it means it just has shoulder and elbow protectors but even after reading their "D-Pedia" I'm still not sure. If that one doesn't have a spine guard then that means that same wording applies to jackets with different levels of padding. Their information is so needlessly confusing, what a pain in the ass.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Damn, $650 for a jacket. --It's a good looking one though.

I think I only ended up spending $700 total on gear (including helmet) when I started up. But I suppose none of mine looks that good!

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Talking about beginner bikes, I think it's thoroughly weird that companies and even reviewers talk about things like the Shiver, Bonneville or Monster as entry level bikes. These things all have 7-900 CC engines. It's like there's this attitude that unless you're on a 1090RR Brutale or a ZX-14 it's some kind of noob bike, which is messed up.

Some Alpinestars are nice but I think their logo is extremely ugly so it decreases the group by a lot from the start. I have another question though, I think this Dainese jacket is the best looking yet Retro Pelle.

That is nice...matches my helmet and the imaginary Aprilia/MV Agusta I don't have. Agreed on the Alpinestars, btw. Most of the NA brands - Shift, Joe Rocket, etc. don't really do much for me in the looks department (even though my current jacket is really cheesy and my gloves are Joe Rockets).

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Talking about beginner bikes, I think it's thoroughly weird that companies and even reviewers talk about things like the Shiver, Bonneville or Monster as entry level bikes. These things all have 7-900 CC engines. It's like there's this attitude that unless you're on a 1090RR Brutale or a ZX-14 it's some kind of noob bike, which is messed up.

It's not how big your bike is, it's how you ride it.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

It's not how big your bike is, it's how you ride it.

True enough, but would you ever look at a 750cc streetfighter and think to call it an entry level bike?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Damn, $650 for a jacket. --It's a good looking one though.

I think I only ended up spending $700 total on gear (including helmet) when I started up. But I suppose none of mine looks that good!

I posted the cheaper jacket I liked before but this is the first jacket that actual wowed and made me think it was amazing looking. I don't know if I'll get it, it was more of a holy shit that's a slick looking jacket! And curiosity about there stupid explanation on the padding.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

True enough, but would you ever look at a 750cc streetfighter and think to call it an entry level bike?

My point is that my "tiny" little 500cc is pretty amazing. I think my opinion on what constitutes as starter bike is pretty well known in this thread, and anything over 500cc definitely isn't it.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

My point is that my "tiny" little 500cc is pretty amazing.

Yeah, when you start out you think (well okay, I thought) that litre bikes are real bikes and everything else is just a warmup, but my 600 Ninja has taught me that most performance above that is just for play and rarely ever used on the street (or even most track classes, for that matter). I guess it's different if you have something tuned for torque like a cruiser/tourer, but with sports & standards most people can never really use something with that sort of engine to its potential, and power is unproductive in most situations past a certain point anyway, even on the track.

Case in point, the Daytona 675 beating out the Ducati 848 on the track:

http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=1430

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Yeah, when you start out you think (well okay, I thought) that litre bikes are real bikes and everything else is just a warmup, but my 600 Ninja has taught me that most performance above that is just for play and rarely ever used on the street (or even most track classes, for that matter). I guess it's different if you have something tuned for torque like a cruiser/tourer, but with sports & standards most people can never really use something with that sort of engine to its potential, and power is unproductive in most situations past a certain point anyway, even on the track.

Case in point, the Daytona 675 beating out the Ducati 848 on the track:

http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=1430

Bingo. If I want that kind of power, I go to the track where I can actually use it in a responsible manner.

 

[Scarecrow]

I'm way overdue in getting my bike's oil changed. I've got the oil and filter, but would I be able to do it myself? Or, is it better to have it done by pros?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I'm way overdue in getting my bike's oil changed. I've got the oil and filter, but would I be able to do it myself? Or, is it better to have it done by pros?

Should be as simple as releasing a lugnut under your bike to drain the oil and changing the oil filter. You can do it by yourself, unless you're completely mechanically inept like I am.

 

[thesoapster]

Some Alpinestars are nice but I think their logo is extremely ugly so it decreases the group by a lot from the start. I have another question though, I think this Dainese jacket is the best looking yet Retro Pelle. Does anyone know what their Composite protectors certified to EN 1621.1/97 StandardPocket for backspace G1 and G2 means? I'm assuming it means it just has shoulder and elbow protectors but even after reading their "D-Pedia" I'm still not sure. If that one doesn't have a spine guard then that means that same wording applies to jackets with different levels of padding. Their information is so needlessly confusing, what a pain in the ass.

Well, I will say Dainese has what I consider to be the coolest logo.......

The jacket does not come with a spine guard. The EN 162blahblah armor conforms to CE standards, so it's good armor. The G1 and G2 back armor is just different armor sizes specific to Dainese. Depending on the jacket size you buy determines the size armor you should use.

Bingo. If I want that kind of power, I go to the track where I can actually use it in a responsible manner.

1. No speed cameras
2. Empty country roads
3. ???
4. Profit

I'm way overdue in getting my bike's oil changed. I've got the oil and filter, but would I be able to do it myself? Or, is it better to have it done by pros?

Do you have a new drain bolt washer? They are compressed a bit after installation and it's a very good idea to replace it. If your bike has fairings in the way of the drain bolt and filter you'll need to remove them. Start the bike and let it warm up. Let it cool a couple minutes, undo the drain bolt and let the oil drain into an oil pan. Let it go until practically stops dripping entirely (which it will do for a little while). Put the new washer on the bolt (after removing the old washer, of course), and tighten it down to the specifications in your manual. Your oil filter may have been tightened with a wrench, and depending on what kind of hand leverage you can get, you may need to have an oil filter wrench socket. You'll need to get the filter off and let that oil out as well into the pan. Use a very small amount (slight dab) of the used engine oil to coat the rubber ring on the new filter. Install it to the specifications in your manual (make sure you know the difference of just twisting it on and when the seal actually first makes contact). Put the oil in the bike after removing the oil filler cap. Replace the cap and start the bike up. You will probably get an oil light for a couple seconds. This should go away pretty quickly. If it does not, something is wrong. Let the bike run for a minute or so and shut it off. Have someone (or you can do it if you know how) hold the bike level for you while you check the oil level in the window. Make sure it's within the proper range. Dispose of the oil/filter in the proper/legal way.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

1. No speed cameras
2. Empty country roads
3. ???
4. Profit

Gotta say I disagree there, if only because there's always the hazard of a kid or an animal possibly doing something stupid like crossing the road.

Tracks have some lovely twisties too you know.

 

[Scarecrow]

My instruction manual says I need a torque wrench and an oil filter wrench. I have neither. Blast

 

[thesoapster]

Gotta say I disagree there, if only because there's always the hazard of a kid or an animal possibly doing something stupid like crossing the road.

Tracks have some lovely twisties too you know.

Kids? Maybe if you're near housing. Animals and gravel are obstacles to watch out for, sure. I never advocated riding at track pace on the backroads. You have to plan for unseen hazards and adjust your speed accordingly. I've avoided a few deer by now, and countless gravel and road kill piles. Doubling (tripling?) the speed limit can be done safely a lot of the time. The biggest hazard to me is still a car, and there's a shit load more of them around when commuting than going out into the middle of nowhere. I feel much safer speeding out there where I'm not being bothered by anyone than constantly having to watch every driver with suspicion. I can do it, it's just not fun. The only times I really have to worry about that is sometimes when I'm going to get to those middle-of-nowhere areas. Of course in traffic I behave.

And yes, I know all about what tracks have to offer. There's a good track less than an hour from where I live. I'm still working on a way to get a trailer and hitch going with my Civic. I'm poised to move out (from parents' house) some time this season, so hopefully I'll have the space then to store a trailer. I may be able to do it before then If I can convince someone to come with me in a car and to bring along all the stuff I'll need. Also looking at doing the California Superbike School.

My instruction manual says I need a torque wrench and an oil filter wrench. I have neither. Blast

Honestly with those torques you can usually tighten till you feel it's "tight" (but don't over-tighten and strip anything on the hardware). The oil filter wrench may or may not be a necessity. Usually you can only undo it with relative ease if it's been hand tightened. My R1's filter is behind the headers (which crisscross at one spot) and it's damn near impossible to get leverage. Luckily my Civic's filter wrench fits!

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

My instruction manual says I need a torque wrench and an oil filter wrench. I have neither. Blast

Eh......... That is probably one of the things you can get a away with something like that. As long as the lug is tightened again and you make sure it's not leaking you should be ok. Oil Filter maybe stuck if it's been really long but should't be too hard to take off if you got a little muscle.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

soap: can't you just ride your bike to the track? Why would you need a trailer? Unless, I suppose that there's some silly law where you are...

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Well, I will say Dainese has what I consider to be the coolest logo.......

The jacket does not come with a spine guard. The EN 162blahblah armor conforms to CE standards, so it's good armor. The G1 and G2 back armor is just different armor sizes specific to Dainese. Depending on the jacket size you buy determines the size armor you should use.



1. No speed cameras
2. Empty country roads
3. ???
4. Profit





Do you have a new drain bolt washer? They are compressed a bit after installation and it's a very good idea to replace it. If your bike has fairings in the way of the drain bolt and filter you'll need to remove them. Start the bike and let it warm up. Let it cool a couple minutes, undo the drain bolt and let the oil drain into an oil pan. Let it go until practically stops dripping entirely (which it will do for a little while). Put the new washer on the bolt (after removing the old washer, of course), and tighten it down to the specifications in your manual. Your oil filter may have been tightened with a wrench, and depending on what kind of hand leverage you can get, you may need to have an oil filter wrench socket. You'll need to get the filter off and let that oil out as well into the pan. Use a very small amount (slight dab) of the used engine oil to coat the rubber ring on the new filter. Install it to the specifications in your manual (make sure you know the difference of just twisting it on and when the seal actually first makes contact). Put the oil in the bike after removing the oil filler cap. Replace the cap and start the bike up. You will probably get an oil light for a couple seconds. This should go away pretty quickly. If it does not, something is wrong. Let the bike run for a minute or so and shut it off. Have someone (or you can do it if you know how) hold the bike level for you while you check the oil level in the window. Make sure it's within the proper range. Dispose of the oil/filter in the proper/legal way.

Just making sure... So if I got this then it would be a "full" jacket as far as safety goes?

 

[thesoapster]

soap: can't you just ride your bike to the track? Why would you need a trailer? Unless, I suppose that there's some silly law where you are...

You can ride the bike to the track, but then you must prep it there. This means bringing along some tools. A lot of tools I'd want to have with me at the track are not going to fit in any luggage (such as a swingarm stand). Virtually everyone I've talked to who has done track days has said to prep the bike and get it ready, then load it up and take it to the track. Also helps to bring food, plenty of water, something to keep the sun off you the whole day, etc. And then at the end of the day I've been told you're usually bit too worn out to really want to ride home/be able to go home effectively. And of course there's the issue of what were to happen if you were to crash and the bike is not ride-able (have to call someone to come and get you I guess). My original thought was to just ride there but really it's not recommended.

Just making sure... So if I got this then it would be a "full" jacket as far as safety goes?

You could say that. That jacket you linked wasn't listed under sport riding, but under touring. It may have a less aggressive cut, or make use of more leather pieces with more stitching (which if it did would have less strength in a slide to resist tearing open). I really don't know why it wouldn't qualify as "sport" (maybe because it's got more of "gentleman's look"). Funny you complained about Spidi's pricing and you're considering this thing now!

It does look like a nice jacket. It has CE armor, and you can add the appropriate size CE back protector. You should be OK with it. If you are interested in why it's considered for touring and not sport, give a dealer that sells them and handles their gear daily a call. I've only seen Dainese gear. I haven't even touched it physically before, so really my knowledge of their stuff is just going to what applies to any other leather apparel. I had a lot of the workings of leather gear (and specifically the Spidi apparel I was trying on) explained to me by the guy who orders all the Spidi apparel at Battley Cycles, who is a pretty cool guy. He did tell me at one point that Spidi and Dainese use the best leather among all brands (cow leather is from Argentinian cattle). My feeling is you can't go wrong with the jacket. However if you want 2 piece leather I think that can just clip into belt loops on pants. If that's OK with you and you were going to do what I do usually and wear armor leggings under the jeans so be it. Otherwise you may need to look at a sport jacket with a full circumference zipper. Maybe that's what differentiates the sport jackets from touring...

edit: OK I take that back about the zipper/clip. They just say "jacket-pants fastening system" for pretty much all of those jackets, including sport. I have no idea if it can go 2 piece or not. Call the dealer :lol

 

[Dragona Akehi]

You can ride the bike to the track, but then you must prep it there. This means bringing along some tools. A lot of tools I'd want to have with me at the track are not going to fit in any luggage (such as a swingarm stand). Virtually everyone I've talked to who has done track days has said to prep the bike and get it ready, then load it up and take it to the track. Also helps to bring food, plenty of water, something to keep the sun off you the whole day, etc. And then at the end of the day I've been told you're usually bit too worn out to really want to ride home/be able to go home effectively. And of course there's the issue of what were to happen if you were to crash and the bike is not ride-able (have to call someone to come and get you I guess). My original thought was to just ride there but really it's not recommended.

Ah. As I've only ever owned cruiser-style, I just hire out bikes at the track. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

You can ride the bike to the track, but then you must prep it there. This means bringing along some tools. A lot of tools I'd want to have with me at the track are not going to fit in any luggage (such as a swingarm stand). Virtually everyone I've talked to who has done track days has said to prep the bike and get it ready, then load it up and take it to the track. Also helps to bring food, plenty of water, something to keep the sun off you the whole day, etc. And then at the end of the day I've been told you're usually bit too worn out to really want to ride home/be able to go home effectively. And of course there's the issue of what were to happen if you were to crash and the bike is not ride-able (have to call someone to come and get you I guess). My original thought was to just ride there but really it's not recommended.




You could say that. That jacket you linked wasn't listed under sport riding, but under touring. It may have a less aggressive cut, or make use of more leather pieces with more stitching (which if it did would have less strength in a slide to resist tearing open). I really don't know why it wouldn't qualify as "sport" (maybe because it's got more of "gentleman's look"). Funny you complained about Spidi's pricing and you're considering this thing now!

It does look like a nice jacket. It has CE armor, and you can add the appropriate size CE back protector. You should be OK with it. If you are interested in why it's considered for touring and not sport, give a dealer that sells them and handles their gear daily a call. I've only seen Dainese gear. I haven't even touched it physically before, so really my knowledge of their stuff is just going to what applies to any other leather apparel. I had a lot of the workings of leather gear (and specifically the Spidi apparel I was trying on) explained to me by the guy who orders all the Spidi apparel at Battley Cycles, who is a pretty cool guy. He did tell me at one point that Spidi and Dainese use the best leather among all brands (cow leather is from Argentinian cattle). My feeling is you can't go wrong with the jacket.

But this thing is badass looking ! Ya, like I said I wasn't planning on that price at all but then I saw that and was blown away.

Are Metal Gloves overkill or is it worthwhile? They're not much more than those held gloves. Just curious if something like that is a big difference.

Edit: And as far as zipping, it shows the Pelle Pony as the related item so I'm assuming it the matching bottom and it has a zipper around the whole pants. I wish they gave more info about stuff like that. :/

Edit 2: Ya, on Dainese's website it says on pants and jacket there is a jacket to pants joining system.

 

[thesoapster]

Ah. As I've only ever owned cruiser-style, I just hire out bikes at the track. Thanks for the explanation.

If I do the California Superbike School I'll get to ride the BMW S1000RR. Lighter than my bike and a top end hit of over 25HP more (worse bottom end than my bike, though). Pure track machine.

But this thing is badass looking ! Ya, like I said I wasn't planning on that price at all but then I saw that and was blown away.

Are Metal Gloves overkill or is it worthwhile? They're not much more than those held gloves. Just curious if something like that is a big difference.

I've never touched a Dainese product before physically in my life. The Held gloves utilize kangaroo leather in the palm for extra strength, and it is a fact that roo leather resists tearing considerably better than cowhide. Did you watch the Sportbike Track Gear review on them? They show every surface of them and describe the tech. STG overview of the Full Metal Racer. They do look good and that is a very good price, and it seems Dainese put appropriate amounts of reinforcement where needed for a racing glove. If I was buying a Dainese jacket and trying to choose between the Pole Positions and those Full Metal Racers, I'd probably go with the Dainese. I'd probably go with the Dainese regardless. At this level of glove you're pretty much guaranteed great performance in a crash, it just tends to come down to how many times you can crash in them.

edit: only concern about those Dainese gloves is they have some perforation up front in the fingers. May make cooler riding a bit less bearable. Where are you going to be riding, anyway...

side note: I'm not with STG or anything like that. They just post good video reviews with a lot of helpful information for their products. The only thing to date I've bought from them are two sets of Michelin tires...

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

If I do the California Superbike School I'll get to ride the BMW S1000RR. Lighter than my bike and a top end hit of over 25HP more (worse bottom end than my bike, though). Pure track machine.



I've never touched a Dainese product before physically in my life. The Held gloves utilize kangaroo leather in the palm for extra strength, and it is a fact that roo leather resists tearing considerably better than cowhide. Did you watch the Sportbike Track Gear review on them? They show every surface of them and describe the tech. STG overview of the Full Metal Racer. They do look good and that is a very good price, and it seems Dainese put appropriate amounts of reinforcement where needed for a racing glove. If I was buying a Dainese jacket and trying to choose between the Pole Positions and those Full Metal Racers, I'd probably go with the Dainese. I'd probably go with the Dainese regardless. At this level of glove you're pretty much guaranteed great performance in a crash, it just tends to come down to how many times you can crash in them.

edit: only concern about those Dainese gloves is they have some perforation up front in the fingers. May make cooler riding a bit less bearable. Where are you going to be riding, anyway...

side note: I'm not with STG or anything like that. They just post good video reviews with a lot of helpful information for their products. The only thing to date I've bought from them are two sets of Michelin tires...

Bah, I've got so many sites bookmarked I forgot they do reviews. I check revzilla and others who do reviews also and they didn't have any. Watching now.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Does $2400 for ninja 500R with 9100 miles sound overpriced or is that reasonable? It's a 2002.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Does $2400 for ninja 500R with 9100 miles sound overpriced or is that reasonable?

Off the top of my head that sounds fantastic considering 250s usually go for more than that, but what year?

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I am off to pick up my Triumph Thruxton today. Black with a gold stripe. Pics to follow.

 

[Karud]

(And yup she's street legal, the plate's just not visible)

That bike wouldn't even be close to be street legal in the EU.

Don't you need any blinkers?