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[DGRE]

It's relative isn't it? Rich is about what your money can do for you. If you live in a place where rent costs $2000 vs $1000, someone who makes $24000 compared to $12000 both end up having $0 at the end of the day right? Is the person who makes $24000 rich because they make more but still end up with $0 in the end? No. Higher living costs means you need to make more money in order to be comparable to someone who makes less money but has a lower living cost.

Yes, by comparison, the person making $24,000 is most certainly rich. They make twice as much. It's not like that money just disappears. Obviously paying twice the rent nets you twice the living arrangements. When both of the amounts are low it sounds silly to say that one is rich and the other isn't, but still ending up with $0 at the end doesn't make them equal in any way.

If one person makes $480k and the other makes $48k and rent is $40,000 vs $4,000, is the first person not rich simply because they both end up with $0?

A higher living cost means a higher standard of living, it doesn't mean that that person is suddenly equal with anyone else who lives paycheck to paycheck.

I don't care what anyone says. If you spend $800 a month on wine, you're rich.

 

[CTE]

Shit. Daycare here is 500 a month max. I pay 400 a month for full time m-f/9-5. In a school with good structure, too. Not a crap one you might be imagining for that price in your respective areas.

Feel bad that people take advantage of you when you need help most in those situations. If we had to pay 2500 a month for 2 kids, one of us would just become a stay at home.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Yes, by comparison, the person making $24,000 is most certainly rich. They make twice as much. It's not like that money just disappears. Obviously paying twice the rent nets you twice the living arrangements. When both of the amounts are low it sounds silly to say that one is rich and the other isn't, but still ending up with $0 at the end doesn't make them equal in any way.

If one person makes $480k and the other makes $48k and rent is $40,000 vs $4,000, is the first person not rich simply because they both end up with $0?

A higher living cost means a higher standard of living, it doesn't mean that that person is suddenly equal with anyone else who lives paycheck to paycheck.

I don't care what anyone says. If you spend $800 a month on wine, you're rich.

A higher living cost does not mean a higher standard of living. Are you kidding me? Where do you get that idea?

Also read the article. The guy spending 800 a month on wine is a single person making 165k. Not a family with 200k. There is a huge difference. You're not even quoting the right statistic.

Shit. Daycare here is 500 a month max. I pay 400 a month for full time m-f/9-5. In a school with good structure, too. Not a crap one you might be imagining for that price in your respective areas.

Feel bad that people take advantage of you when you need help most in those situations. If we had to pay 2500 a month for 2 kids, one of us would just become a stay at home.

Well it really depends where you are. It's not being taken advantage of. It's just what things cost here. Think about it. Higher cost of living means you need to pay the employees a higher wage. Higher rent costs means your costs go up. All that adds up as to why daycare costs more here. It's not like it's magically people are ripping people off. There are reasons why the cost is higher.

 

[akira28]

They're rich. They're just not 'wealthy'. But make no mistake, they're rich. Just because they're in a higher economic peer group, they still make more money than probably 99% of the world.

 

[SiteSeer]

A higher living cost means a higher standard of living, it doesn't mean that that person is suddenly equal with anyone else who lives paycheck to paycheck.

I don't care what anyone says. If you spend $800 a month on wine, you're rich.

whoa, rental or housing costs are much more about location than quality, 1500 in nyc could be a closet size sublet while that will buy something much better somewhere else. but yes, 800 a month on booze is rich.

 

[Particle Physicist]

whoa, rental or housing costs are much more about location than quality, 1500 in nyc could be a closet size sublet while that will buy something much better somewhere else. but yes, 800 a month on booze is rich.

Location can add to the quality though.

 

[Marty Chinn]

They're rich. They're just not 'wealthy'. But make no mistake, they're rich. Just because they're in a higher economic peer group, they still make more money than probably 99% of the world.

So does that mean someone struggling here on 20k is rich because people in Africa and China make way less?

Location can add to the quality though.

Come on, it's pretty well known the cost of a mediocre house in CA can practically buy a huge luxury house in most other states. Houses are fucking expensive here, even the piss poor ones.

 

[DGRE]

A higher living cost does not mean a higher standard of living. Are you kidding me? Where do you get that idea?

Okay. I mean, just because you say it doesn't make it true. In most (nearly all) cases, a higher living cost is a higher standard of living. I just don't know how else to say it.

I have friends that live in Indonesia and they're rent is $1,200 a year. (Not a typo)

Amenities are a part of standard of living. They don't have a garage, a backyard, lawnmower, investments, large savings accounts, etc. and their neighbors don't have showers and sometimes easy access to clean water.

If you don't have as much disposable income as you'd like it doesn't mean you aren't rich. Because if $200k isn't enough, nothing ever will be.

Location can add to the quality though.

A great point that I meant to mention. Just the fact that you are living in New York City means your standard of living is higher.

So does that mean someone struggling here on 20k is rich because people in Africa and China make way less?

In some ways, yes. Absolutely.

Come on, it's pretty well known the cost of a mediocre house in CA can practically buy a huge luxury house in most other states. Houses are fucking expensive here, even the piss poor ones.

Yes they are, but wages are higher, also.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

I don't understand America's fascination with before tax salaries. I don't take a job because I get 200k before taxes, I take it because I get $xxxk after taxes. If I get some extra during tax season, great, if not, fuck if I care.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Come on, it's pretty well known the cost of a mediocre house in CA can practically buy a huge luxury house in most other states. Houses are fucking expensive here, even the piss poor ones.

Yes, but you're living in Cali, instead of bumble fuck nowhere.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Okay. I mean, just because you say it doesn't make it true. In most (nearly all) cases, a higher living cost is a higher standard of living. I just don't know how else to say it.

I have friends that live in Indonesia and they're rent is $1,200 a year. (Not a typo)

Amenities are a part of standard of living. They don't have a garage, a backyard, lawnmower, investments, large savings accounts, etc. and their neighbors don't have showers and sometimes easy access to clean water.

If you don't have as much disposable income as you'd like it doesn't mean you aren't rich. Because if $200k isn't enough, nothing ever will be.

A great point that I meant to mention. Just the fact that you are living in New York City means your standard of living is higher.

So by your definition someone making 20k in the US is rich because in Indonesia rent is $100 a month?

Yes, but you're living in Cali, instead of bumble fuck nowhere.

Let's be realistic here, it's not just bumble fuck nowhere. Major cities and states have by far cheaper houses. It's been awhile since I looked but I remember when you could drop 150k in Dallas and get a nice house that would have cost you 4 times as much in CA. Dallas isn't bumble fuck nowhere.

 

[Liberty4all]

Hopefully everything is now clarified in the OP. Sorry it wasn't clear before, but I was raging and typing on my iPad (bad combination).

 

[JB1981]

200k might be rich in Obama's America

 

[DGRE]

So by your definition someone making 20k in the US is rich because in Indonesia rent is $100 a month?

As I said in the previous post. In some ways, yes. Absolutely.

 

[Particle Physicist]

So by your definition someone making 20k in the US is rich because in Indonesia rent is $100 a month?

Compared to people in Indonesia... yes.

 

[B!TCH]

Being upper middle class sucks. You get none of the benefits of being "rich" and all of the burdens of being "poor" but you aren't really either so no one cares about your problems. The term "first world problems" was pretty much invented for this income bracket.

 

[Liberty4all]

Also for the record I DO live in Toronto.

200k even after accounting for 70k taxes off that figure .. We'll 130k take home is a HUGE amount of money. More than enough to live and live well here.

 

[Marty Chinn]

As I said in the previous post. In some ways, yes. Absolutely.

Compared to people in Indonesia... yes.

Don't you think someone struggling with 20k income and a family would be fucking insulted if you told them they were rich because they make more than someone in Indonesia?

 

[Divvy]

Also for the record I DO live in Toronto.

200k even after accounting for 70k taxes off that figure .. We'll 130k take home is a HUGE amount of money. More than enough to live and live well here.

Certainly, but is that the definition of rich? I still don't get how we can argue this point without an agreeable definition of what "rich" means.

 

[DGRE]

Don't you think someone struggling with 20k income and a family would be fucking insulted if you told them they were rich because they make more than someone in Indonesia?

Not if you told them what they had and what people in Indonesia didn't have. It's just so moronic to act like 200k isn't more than enough to live anywhere in the world. If you had to buy a 3 bedroom house instead of a 4 bedroom house because you live in California, boo-freaking-hoo.

(Proverbial "You," not you specifically Marty)

 

[Liberty4all]

Certainly, but is that the definition of rich? I still don't get how we can argue this point without an agreeable definition of what "rich" means.

I think it's rich. They may not be asset wealthy, but they are certainly living a lifestyle most Canadians could not afford.

To me "rich" is about your ability to buy things (or experiences) as well as your ability to increase your standard of living.

Wealth on the other hand refers to you accumulation of riches (how well you save).

 

[Marty Chinn]

Not if you told them what they had and what people in Indonesia didn't have. It's just so moronic to act like 200k isn't more than enough to live anywhere in the world. If you had to buy a 3 bedroom house instead of a 4 bedroom house because you live in California, boo-freaking-hoo.

(Proverbial "You," not you specifically Marty)

I think that person would be pissed if you straight up told that to their face because it's making light of their struggle to make it by on that income. You can't be serious to think that making light of someone's hardship like that would go by easy. I'm not saying living on 200k is hardship mind you, but my main point is it's all relative. 20k may be a ton of money in Indonesia, but it's considered poor in the US. Just like 200k may seem like a lot of money to some, but in some places that 200k doesn't give you the same buying power that it does elsewhere and is not considered rich.

It's crazy to think that some people in this thread somehow think that someone who is able to pay their bills, not live in debt, and is able to save for their retirement is somehow rich. Being able to meet these things makes you rich? Think about that.

 

[twofold]

Not if you told them what they had and what people in Indonesia didn't have. It's just so moronic to act like 200k isn't more than enough to live anywhere in the world. If you had to buy a 3 bedroom house instead of a 4 bedroom house because you live in California, boo-freaking-hoo.

(Proverbial "You," not you specifically Marty)

People in the first world don't understand how easy they have it and how lucky they are. If you were born in a first world country, you won the genetic lottery. Congratulations.

99% of Indonesian people would gladly give up their lives here and move to the States, even if it meant working 60+ hours a week earning a pittance of a salary.

 

[Liberty4all]

The article disgusts me when ou have other articles like this one which is the real face and reality of many Torontonians. Hearing 5 families cry about how things are "tough" at 200k a year ... It's disgusting.

These people have no idea what it really means to have it "tough".

 

[Particle Physicist]

Don't you think someone struggling with 20k income and a family would be fucking insulted if you told them they were rich because they make more than someone in Indonesia?

Well, possibly, because Indonesia is a completely different country. In the US, a family making 200k is in the top 5% or so. In Cali, according to the US census, they are in the top 6%. In our country, in our states, top 6% is rich.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

Don't you think someone struggling with 20k income and a family would be fucking insulted if you told them they were rich because they make more than someone in Indonesia?

That's going from 1st world country to a 3rd
We're talking about people in the same country, some in the same location, living less than 100 miles away from said 'rich' people, not someone across the world in a different location with a different culture, environment and government.

 

[DGRE]

I think that person would be pissed if you straight up told that to their face because it's making light of their struggle to make it by on that income. You can't be serious to think that making light of someone's hardship like that would go by easy. I'm not saying living on 200k is hardship mind you, but my main point is it's all relative. 20k may be a ton of money in Indonesia, but it's considered poor in the US. Just like 200k may seem like a lot of money to some, but in some places that 200k doesn't give you the same buying power that it does elsewhere and is not considered rich.

Tell me where in America (or the world) $30k will net me the same as a $200k lifestyle so I can move there.

And no, I could never have a $200k lifestyle in Indonesia on $30k because I still wouldn't be able to by a house that was well built, have easy access to well-maintained roadways, be able to get whatever I want at the grocery store, and also enjoy the basic rights of being an American.

The view of standard of living is so narrow in too many people's minds. You are better off being homeless in America than gainfully employed in some countries.

That's going from 1st world country to a 3rd
We're talking about people in the same country, some in the same location, living less than 100 miles away from said 'rich' people, not someone across the world in a different location with a different culture, environment and government.

Another point I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked. How can some people live on $30k in California and others "struggle" with $200k?

 

[Shouta]

Not if you told them what they had and what people in Indonesia didn't have. It's just so moronic to act like 200k isn't more than enough to live anywhere in the world. If you had to buy a 3 bedroom house instead of a 4 bedroom house because you live in California, boo-freaking-hoo.

(Proverbial "You," not you specifically Marty)

At 200k a year, you could live pretty nicely in Tokyo even as a family and last I checked, Tokyo is one of the most expensive places to live in the world, much higher than Cali or NY. It's all about expectations and style of living.

Values gets warped the more money you have and the more you spend your time indulging it. That area before certified, filthy stinkin' rich is where losing sight is really easy.

 

[leadbelly]

Upper middle class.
Rich.

Semantics for those who have little.

 

[travisbickle]

I think that person would be pissed if you straight up told that to their face because it's making light of their struggle to make it by on that income. You can't be serious to think that making light of someone's hardship like that would go by easy. I'm not saying living on 200k is hardship mind you, but my main point is it's all relative. 20k may be a ton of money in Indonesia, but it's considered poor in the US. Just like 200k may seem like a lot of money to some, but in some places that 200k doesn't give you the same buying power that it does elsewhere and is not considered rich.

It's crazy to think that some people in this thread somehow think that someone who is able to pay their bills, not live in debt, and is able to save for their retirement is somehow rich. Being able to meet these things makes you rich? Think about that.

A small minority of the population of the USA are able to do what you've described, you should think about that.

 

[DGRE]

At 200k a year, you could live pretty nicely in Tokyo even as a family and last I checked, Tokyo is one of the most expensive places to live in the world, much higher than Cali or NY. It's all about expectations and style of living.

Values gets warped the more money you have and the more you spend your time indulging it. That area before certified, filthy stinkin' rich is where losing sight is really easy.

It's absurd. There is nowhere you could live in the world and be lacking for ANYTHING with $200k.

It's crazy to think that some people in this thread somehow think that someone who is able to pay their bills, not live in debt, and is able to save for their retirement is somehow rich. Being able to meet these things makes you rich? Think about that.

I am thinking about it, and yes, absolutely, those things make you rich. How is saving for retirement a basic or fundamental part of living?? It's a luxury!! A luxury many don't have. Who do you think you're appealing to right now?

I don't think you're a bad person by any means for doing well for yourself. I am happy that you can. But if you don't think you guys are more than fine, you should be a lot more thankful for your position in life.

 

[twofold]

And no, I could never have a $200k lifestyle in Indonesia on $30k because I still wouldn't be able to by a house that was well built, have easy access to well-maintained roadways, be able to get whatever I want at the grocery store, and also enjoy the basic rights of being an American.

The view of standard of living is so narrow in too many people's minds. You are better off being homeless in America than gainfully employed in some countries.

Well, to be honest, you can live a 200k lifestyle on 30k in a place like Indonesia.

I spend at most $1,200 a month living in Jakarta - I have a big apartment with a maid that cleans it daily, I go out to restaurants to eat and hardly ever cook and I take taxi's everywhere. I also get massages every few days.

You don't need much money to live very well in a developing country.

 

[DGRE]

Well, to be honest, you can live a 200k lifestyle on 30k in a place like Indonesia.

I spend at most $1,200 a month living in Jakarta - I have a big apartment with a maid that cleans it daily, I go out to restaurants to eat and hardly ever cook and I take taxi's everywhere. I also get massages every few days.

You don't need much money to live very well in a developing country.

Well, there you go. Let's all move to Indonesia.

 

[Divvy]

I think it's rich. They may not be asset wealthy, but they are certainly living a lifestyle most Canadians could not afford.

To me "rich" is about your ability to buy things (or experiences) as well as your ability to increase your standard of living.

Wealth on the other hand refers to you accumulation of riches (how well you save).

Well if that's your definition, then sure I can see where you're coming from. But to me being rich is far beyond income. It's things like stability (being able to weather economic downturns without much trouble), having enough in savings or in your estate to not have to work very hard, or just being able to spend without worrying about your budget.

The article disgusts me when ou have other articles like this one which is the real face and reality of many Torontonians. Hearing 5 families cry about how things are "tough" at 200k a year ... It's disgusting.

These people have no idea what it really means to have it "tough".

To be fair, much of the crying was done by the article writer. Aside from that one guy, most of the families are just describing their budgets and not really whining about anything. They probably shouldn't have agreed to be part of this article, but they might have not known the intentions of it beforehand either.

 

[twofold]

Well, there you go. Let's all move to Indonesia.

Haha.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I think more people would be happy if they found a job that gives the freedom to live in other countries. I know tons of people that live in Asia but earn a modest western wage and live very comfortable lives. The Internet makes it much easier to carry out 'geo arbitrage' - as in, earn a Western wage but spend it in an Eastern country.

If I was still living in Europe, my life would be "ok". Out here, life is very, very good.

 

[leadbelly]

I think that person would be pissed if you straight up told that to their face because it's making light of their struggle to make it by on that income. You can't be serious to think that making light of someone's hardship like that would go by easy. I'm not saying living on 200k is hardship mind you, but my main point is it's all relative. 20k may be a ton of money in Indonesia, but it's considered poor in the US. Just like 200k may seem like a lot of money to some, but in some places that 200k doesn't give you the same buying power that it does elsewhere and is not considered rich.

It's crazy to think that some people in this thread somehow think that someone who is able to pay their bills, not live in debt, and is able to save for their retirement is somehow rich. Being able to meet these things makes you rich? Think about that.

Of course, to a degree, it is all about perspective. Everyone on this forum is rich compared to the poor in Africa. We're looking at it in terms of America though.

I would agree with everything you say if it wasn't for the fact they are spending $800 on wine. I'm sorry, but that is a luxury.

I would say the same thing if I was a billionaire btw.

 

[DGRE]

Haha.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I think more people would be happy if they found a job that gives the freedom to live in other countries. I know tons of people that live in Asia but earn a modest western wage and live very comfortable lives. The Internet makes it much easier to carry out 'geo arbitrage' - as in, earn a Western wage but spend it in an Eastern country.

If I was still living in Europe, my life would be "ok". Out here, life is very, very good.

I'm in Korea and even though i struggle, I still know I'm incredibly well off, and I just can't help but sneer at people who think $200k is some kind of lowly station in life.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Well, possibly, because Indonesia is a completely different country. In the US, a family making 200k is in the top 5% or so. In Cali, according to the US census, they are in the top 6%. In our country, in our states, top 6% is rich.

Can you point me a link to that stat? I remember, I think it was here where someone posted a site that would calculate your percentage based off your income and state and I remember trying all sorts of figures and I swear 200k didn't put you in the 10% in CA.

That's going from 1st world country to a 3rd
We're talking about people in the same country, some in the same location, living less than 100 miles away from said 'rich' people, not someone across the world in a different location with a different culture, environment and government.

The point is it is relative to the cost of living. Be it first world or third world, how much you make is relative to the cost of living. You can make by far less in some areas and live like a king while in others make more and struggle.

Tell me where in America (or the world) $30k will net me the same as a $200k lifestyle so I can move there.

Another point I wanted to bring up but I got sidetracked. How can some people live on $30k in California and others "struggle" with $200k?

Where did I ever say struggle?

At 200k a year, you could live pretty nicely in Tokyo even as a family and last I checked, Tokyo is one of the most expensive places to live in the world, much higher than Cali or NY. It's all about expectations and style of living.

Values gets warped the more money you have and the more you spend your time indulging it. That area before certified, filthy stinkin' rich is where losing sight is really easy.

Different factors of living though too. In Tokyo, you don't need a car, so you don't have to pay annual fees, maintenance, gas, etc.

A small minority of the population of the USA are able to do what you've described, you should think about that.

It's absurd. There is nowhere you could live in the world and be lacking for ANYTHING with $200k.


I am thinking about it, and yes, absolutely, those things make you rich. How is saving for retirement a basic or fundamental part of living?? It's a luxury!! A luxury many don't have. Who do you think you're appealing to right now?

I don't think you're a bad person by any means for doing well for yourself. I am happy that you can. But if you don't think you guys are more than fine, you should be a lot more thankful for your position in life.

Saving for retirement so I can live when I can no longer work is a luxury? Seriously? Where did I ever said I struggled? I said we were comfortable, but we still have to live within a budget. We can't frivolously spend money. Just because we're not scraping by and going into debt doesn't mean we're rich either. Despite a lot of people struggling, and I make no short sight on it, but that doesn't mean those that are just able to pay their bills, not go into debt, and to try to save for retirement should qualify as being rich. Middle class and upper middle class sure, but rich?

I think it's crazy that you have to be in debt and not saving money to not be considered rich.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Of course, to a degree, it is all about perspective. Everyone on this forum is rich compared to the poor in Africa. We're looking at it in terms of America though.

I would agree with everything you say if it wasn't for the fact they are spending $800 on wine. I'm sorry, but that is a luxury.

I would say the same thing if I was a billionaire btw.

Can we read the article at least? Nobody is saying someone spending $800 on wine isn't a luxury. But also realize that the $800 wine has nothing to do with a family with a $200k income either.

 

[Divvy]

I'm in Korea and even though i struggle, I still know I'm incredibly well off, and I just can't help but sneer at people who think $200k is some kind of lowly station in life.

Nobody has done that here.

 

[jdogmoney]

Man you guys who are all "200k isn't that much" should be poor sometime. Like, "you'll eat today, since we have some rice left" poor.

Don't get me wrong, in the grand scheme of things I'm well off, but...damn, I want to buy a new pair of shoes every once in a while, you know?

 

[DGRE]

I can't wait until we have more and more classes. $200k is upper middle class. $1 million is upper upper middle class, but definitely not rich, because they can't buy a plane every year. $3 million is lower upper class, but definitely not rich because they can't buy a yacht every year. $5 million is middle upper class...

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Since when did "not poor" mean you're a disgusting rich asshole?

 

[leadbelly]

Can we read the article at least? Nobody is saying someone spending $800 on wine isn't a luxury. But also realize that the $800 wine has nothing to do with a family with a $200k income either.

I can read, I just realise that whether you describe it as upper middle class or rich, it is just talking semantics. It means nothing to people who have less, so why make a big fucking deal out of trying to prove you're not rich?

 

[Marty Chinn]

Since when did "not poor" mean you're a filty rich asshole?

Since this thread I guess.

 

[twofold]

I'm in Korea and even though i struggle, I still know I'm incredibly well off, and I just can't help but sneer at people who think $200k is some kind of lowly station in life.

I know what you're saying. I have a hard time not lashing out at my Mum when on our weekly Skype chats when I hear her complain about 'how bad' she has it. She works 35 hours a week, has a car and a fully paid up house, and all sorts of other luxuries. It's madness! She's blind to how good her life is.

I fully agree that anyone who thinks $200k isn't a lot of money desperately needs to get some perspective.

 

[DGRE]

Can we read the article at least? Nobody is saying someone spending $800 on wine isn't a luxury. But also realize that the $800 wine has nothing to do with a family with a $200k income either.

I never attributed that quote to a $200k family, and neither did he. Check yourself. I know it's the single guy who only makes $166k. Yep, only.

Since you're really hung up on the family of 4 making $200k:

Clothes: $3,000. (“When you have young kids you really cut back on stuff for yourself.”)

So true. So true.

 

[travisbickle]

I think it's crazy that you have to be in debt and not saving money to not be considered rich.

Welcome to modern society, the majority of the population is drowning in debt. The amount of money earned that puts you in the top bracket, in real terms, has fallen and will keep falling (because of wage stagnation for the majority)... but you know if you complain about it you're a dirty occupier.

 

[aznpxdd]

I don't know, I don't feel that my family and I live luxuriously even though our income is a million or more a year. But then again, we are Asians, so we are much more conservative with spending money...

Don't kill me.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Can you point me a link to that stat? I remember, I think it was here where someone posted a site that would calculate your percentage based off your income and state and I remember trying all sorts of figures and I swear 200k didn't put you in the 10% in CA.

Slavik posted a link to the census data.

For posterity's sake, I get 6% for household income.

2010 data

743,938 Estimated Households make 200k or more in California

Total estimated households: 12,406,475

Percentage-wise, that is 5.996%