2012 NBA Mar |OT2| The Manhattan Project Part II: Blow It All Up, Again

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CB3 said:
Ron should decline his player option and come back for the minimum.

He's crazy enough to do something like that.
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I wouldn't put it past him. His original deal was a steal when he signed it. No one knew he would decline so fast and he's aware that he hasn't lived up to it.
 
thekad said:
Field an $85 million team that can't win? Good luck with that.
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So if the Lakers have Ramon + big 3 + $9 million player, they won't be contenders?



Miami is happy their big 3 contracts are locked up for longer. They all took paycuts. And Miami doesn't need to add pieces to be a contender.
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I'm sure they will when Wade will regress mightily in 2 seasons and they're paying the corpse of haslem, Miller, and the like to be out there.

Miami's window is much shorter than people realize. They have no way to improve and Wade is over 30 and will be much worse in 2 years.

edit: Heat have $80 million in 2014-15. Lakers have $0 right now. Heat have no flexibility going forward. Lakers have some this offseason.

edit: The heat are seriously looking at fisher to help them. right now. FISHER
 
methodman said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIsgXGlnpzQ

here's the video in HD.

Lacob is an idiot though, he says so much dumb ass stuff that our fan base has had enough. It's not about Monta, it's about him promising playoffs for the past two years, it's about being one of the worst franchises in the fucking nba for 30+ years. it has to be impossible to miss the playoffs as many times as we have in a league where half the teams make it.
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Wow...
 
Black Mamba said:
So if the Lakers have Ramon + big 3 + $9 million player, they won't be contenders?





I'm sure they will when Wade will regress mightily in 2 seasons and they're paying the corpse of haslem, Miller, and the like to be out there.
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has anyone outside of Heat-age commented on the decline of both Miller and Haslem yet?
 
Wade is as good as ever. I think we should wait until he starts declining (like Kobe and Pau) before we claim he will be "much worse" in 2 years.

"Trade Odom for Nothing" Buss is going to throw out: Ramon/Grandpa Kobe/Marion/Pau/Bynum and no bench for $85 million? LOL
 
Full Metal Jacket said:
Durant is not a better basketball player than LeBron.
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mj-laughing6t31n.gif
 
methodman said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIsgXGlnpzQ

here's the video in HD.

Lacob is an idiot though, he says so much dumb ass stuff that our fan base has had enough. It's not about Monta, it's about him promising playoffs for the past two years, it's about being one of the worst franchises in the fucking nba for 30+ years. it has to be impossible to miss the playoffs as many times as we have in a league where half the teams make it.
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Oh my.
 
thekad said:
Wade is as good as ever. I think we should wait until he starts declining (like Kobe and Pau) before we claim he will be "much worse" in 2 years.

"Trade Odom for Nothing" Buss is going to throw out: Ramon/Grandpa Kobe/Marion/Pau/Bynum and no bench for $85 million? LOL
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Wade will decline in 2 years. He isn't the type of player that can withstand age as well as others. Like I said, they have a short window. I'm not arguing he's declined right now.


And we are already paying for the lineup, only MWP in place of Marion for basically the same cash.

Like I said, Lakers can improve this offseason with the right move. Heat can't offer anyone more than $3 mil and then the rest vet min every year for the next 4. And UD, Miller, Battier have all regressed a lot already. Will only get worse.

Heat can't even have a better record than a Bulls team missing Rose for like 15 games.
 
Puddles said:
Yeah, no.

Durant, Dwight, Love in some order.
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I'm one of the biggest LBJ haters on the forum (legit haters), but he's been playing as the best player in the league.

Several others have fallen off. Dwight's emo 2 month stretch. Melos complete mediocrity in NY, Durant STILL not keeping YNB in check.

I do like that Durant is starting to post up though. Guy is just pure effort always adding.
 
Blackace said:
Are you kidding me? Payton, the only PG to win defensive player of the year..
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In a position that rarely matters in defense. The single least important defensive position?

Compared to 2 MVP's?

No, i'm not kidding you, Nash is far better than payton. Saying otherwise is just crass.
 
Payton >>>>> Nash.

Besides the defense, which does matter, nash could never have done what he did in the hand-check era.

Nash also got to play in a half-court offense for a bit and floundered.

Nash's defense was so bad they'd have to use Marion to guard PGs. Which is why Phx always lost, in the end. And those MVPs were not his.


Oh, and GP did carry his team to the Finals. nash couldn't do with with Joe Johnson, amar'e, and marion.
 
Black Mamba said:
Payton >>>>> Nash.

Besides the defense, which does matter, nash could never have done what he did in the hand-check era.

Nash also got to play in a half-court offense for a bit and floundered.

Nash's defense was so bad they'd have to use Marion to guard PGs. Which is why Phx always lost, in the end. And those MVPs were not his.


Oh, and GP did carry his team to the Finals. nash couldn't do with with Joe Johnson, amar'e, and marion.
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Glad you're still salty about the MVP's, everything else you said is irrelevant drivel.
 
CoffeeJanitor said:
Why do people play down the importance of PG defense?
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They don't know the pain of having Fisher as their starting PG, that's why.

Payton > Nash, easily. Nash can be as good as he can be on the offensive end, but I can't give the nod to someone who only plays 1 side of the game. He was a complete liability on the defensive end.

Also, he didn't deserve one of the MVP's.
 
Oh man, I was listening to the radio when that Mullin jersey retirement was going on. First they booed Mullin mentioning Stern, which was great, but when the owner came on and they booed him I was laughing my ass off.

Then he made it worse and Mullin did too by trying to defend him. They should have just ignored it and pressed on to do what he was there for, but he addressed the booing like an idiot. Then they patronized the fans with the "best fans in the NBA" stuff, then when that didn't work they pulled the How DARE You! card on the fans. What idiots. What a disaster. I wish Kings fans would give the Maloofs that treatment next time.

Moral of the story: Don't fuck with Oakland.
 
giri said:
In a position that rarely matters in defense. The single least important defensive position?

Compared to 2 MVP's?

No, i'm not kidding you, Nash is far better than payton. Saying otherwise is just crass.
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If we go by stats for a career which Nash has now played exactly one year less than Payton he has has only passed GP in ast.. now GP was a great passer but Nash is better.. I give him that.. GP has scored about 5000 more points than Nash and has about 1400 more steals than Nash and for fun he has 2000 more rebounds as well and 200 more blocks... GP was a better basketball player in his prime than Steve Nash

The year they went to the finals he avg 19ppg 8ast and 3 steals.. (which isn't even his best year as a player)

Nash's MVP year 19ppgs 11ast and 0.8 steals a game..

so basically 3 more ast and GP could have been MVP!

Black Mamba said:
Payton >>>>> Nash.

Besides the defense, which does matter, nash could never have done what he did in the hand-check era.

Nash also got to play in a half-court offense for a bit and floundered.

Nash's defense was so bad they'd have to use Marion to guard PGs. Which is why Phx always lost, in the end. And those MVPs were not his.


Oh, and GP did carry his team to the Finals. nash couldn't do with with Joe Johnson, amar'e, and marion.
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Also people forget GP was a post threat of hell..

CoffeeJanitor said:
Why do people play down the importance of PG defense?
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Because they are Steve Nash fans!
 
giri said:
lol. Keep going. Please. Its just great how salty laker fans are about the MVP's.

Nash thoroughly deserved both MVP's.
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I ain't salty about the MVPs, I don't even think Kobe deserved them both.

I just found it funny that you thought citing Nash's MVPs have anything to do with him being better than Payton.

Payton's defense is so much better than Nash's that it negates Nash's better offense. And like I said, Nash played in an era where you can't even touch the player.




I agree 100% with Blackace. Payton is a better overall player than Nash. Payton guarded Jordan in the Finals. Nash guarded bruce bowen and they still couldn't hide his ineptitude.


Nash fans always excuse Nash's defense. It's why they never got over the hump...
 
Regarding The Glove's defense on Jordan in the 96 finals:

Michael Jordan had been held under 30 points in 5 of the 6 games, including his three lowest-scoring Finals games up to that point (26 in Game 5, 23 in Game 4, 22 in Game 6). Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series, and that Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series. During this series, Payton and his Sonics also held Jordan's Bulls to the lowest-scoring quarter in their NBA Finals history. Michael Jordan would never score fewer points in an NBA Finals game than his 22 points in game 6, and would never be held under 30 points more than twice in a Finals series, which the Sonics did five times.
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That's just amazing. Not only could GP guard 2s effectively, he could guard the greatest 2 of all time more effectively than most any person regardless of position. He has such a huge advantage on the defensive end compared to Nash, plus his post skills were at stupid high levels for a 1 guard.

He would have eaten Nash's soul.
 
Blackace said:
If we go by stats for a career which Nash has now played exactly one year less than Payton he has has only passed GP in ast.. now GP was a great passer but Nash is better.. I give him that.. GP has scored about 5000 more points than Nash and has about 1400 more steals than Nash and for fun he has 2000 more rebounds as well and 200 more blocks... GP was a better basketball player in his prime than Steve Nash

The year they went to the finals he avg 19ppg 8ast and 3 steals.. (which isn't even his best year as a player)

Nash's MVP year 19ppgs 11ast and 0.8 steals a game..

so basically 3 more ast and GP could have been MVP!



Also people forget GP was a post threat of hell..


Because they are Steve Nash fans!
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Yes, and GP only played, you know, an extra 12,000 Minutes to get those totals! woo? i guess.

And he was also the definition of average at best, for shooting. Where Nash leaves him far behind.

Nash never needed to score him self. Very few times in his career was scoring for him self ever a priority or needed. Mainly cause he got the rest of his team going. FGA Nash, 12,158 @.491. Payton 18,600 odd. @ .466

Only once in 8 years has Nash not averaged double digit assists, the year he was specifically told, for half the season, to not be such a major part of the offense. Then terry porter got fired and he still got his average up to 9.7 for the year. Not once did Payton average double digit assists.

Nash averages 3.0 rebounds, Payton 3.9 I'm somehow ok with my PG only averaging only 3rbpg.

Statistically, Nash kills him offensively. It's not even close. Let alone that Nash ran and masterminded like 8 of the 10 all time most efficient offenses in the history of the NBA.
 
Duki said:
which were the other two most efficient offenses
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honestly can't remember, i imagine showtime or the stockton jazz.

Code: 
BEST OFFENSES SINCE 1973-74
Team	Year	Off. Eff.	League Average	Difference
Dallas	2003-04	109.58	100.05	+9.53
Phoenix	2004-05	111.90	103.07	+8.82
Phoenix	2009-10	112.65	103.99	+8.66
Dallas	2001-02	109.49	101.59	+7.89
Phoenix	2006-07	111.42	103.06	+8.06
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Nash was the starting PG on both of those mav teams too.
 
thekad said:
7 of the top 20 offenses, actually:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205

3 of the top 4.
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According to that:

y4OHc.png



Payton has 3 seattle teams among the greatest combined offensive and defensive teams of all time, Nash had 1 (and below Payton's best). Payton also had 3 of the top offenses ever. Kind of seals Payton > Nash for me.

Also, Cleveland in '09 is clearly the biggest choke job in NBA history. Only team in top 9 to not win the title.

Fitting that Lebron has the #1 choke ever.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
You guys are really going this hard to compare two players from completely different eras? Payton wouldn't be allowed to play D on PGs in this era.
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Nash would be worst than Mark Price in GP's so now what?
 
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