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[Gucci Messiah]

I've heard all this shit before. All of it. From the inside, too.

It's nothing but reassurance to the fanbase. He's probably further along than his original timeline, but how many times has a player coming back from TWO knee surgeries in the same summer ever been a good thing?

So you think Westbrook and the organization are willing to put his career in jeopardy to satisfy the fanbase? This can't be your argument, nobody is that short-sighted when millions are on the line. I'm sorry but I'm going to trust the team doctors, Russell and Presti over some random dude posting on a video game forum and assume they know what they're doing. He'll likely receive limited minutes and work his way back anyway.

 

[Psychological Intellect]

Is SRS a reliable way of determining how good a team is in the regular season? What does it take into account except for strength of opponent?

SRS takes into account strength of opponent and point differential I believe.

So you think Westbrook and the organization are willing to put his career in jeopardy to satisfy the fanbase? This can't be your argument, nobody is that short-sighted when millions are on the line. I'm sorry but I'm going to trust the team doctors, Russell and Presti over some random dude posting on a video game forum and assume they know what they're doing. He'll likely receive limited minutes and work his way back anyway.

Has anyone who's ever come back from an injury and re-injured themselves returned without being cleared by team doctors and the organization?

 

[SoulPlaya]

Exactly what it was

A lateral meniscus tear

Lucky break for him.

 

[Forever]

This can't be your argument, nobody is that short-sighted when millions are on the line.

I fully believe that the same Thunder front office that traded James Harden can indeed be that shortsighted.

 

[reilo]

So you think Westbrook and the organization are willing to put his career in jeopardy to satisfy the fanbase? This can't be your argument, nobody is that short-sighted when millions are on the line. I'm sorry but I'm going to trust the team doctors, Russell and Presti over some random dude posting on a video game forum and assume they know what they're doing. He'll likely receive limited minutes and work his way back anyway.

We've seen this shit time and time again...

In fact, athletes get more shit for taking their time coming back from injury (Rose, anyone?) and get labeled "tough" and "brave" for coming back early.

Westbrook coming back early and being just fine will be an exception, and it would still be dumb, especially only two games into the season.

 

[Dominican Power]

You laugh, but they usually are the same injury. The ACL is attached to the medial meniscus, so when one tears one of them, he usually tears the other, as well (along with the MCL). This is known as the unhappy triad.

if Westbrook only tore his meniscus, then it was likely just a lateral tear.

I hear the lateral is even worse because that's the one that helps you move side to side.

 

[Blackace]

Yep. They once traded nothing for the entire Sonics roster.

They traded the NBA's integrity for that

 

[Gucci Messiah]

I fully believe that the same Thunder front office that traded James Harden can indeed be that shortsighted.

Well the difference here is that Westbrook has control of the decision making process, not the front office. You can't compare trading a player away as a money saving measure to rushing someone back from injury 3 games into an 82 game season.

 

[giri]

So you think Westbrook and the organization are willing to put his career in jeopardy to satisfy the fanbase? This can't be your argument, nobody is that short-sighted when millions are on the line. I'm sorry but I'm going to trust the team doctors, Russell and Presti over some random dude posting on a video game forum and assume they know what they're doing. He'll likely receive limited minutes and work his way back anyway.

You should go do more reading than whats posted on the front page.

Many ex staff, of many teams, coaches, med staff, trainers etc, have detailed the particularly shady shit that team doctors will "clear" purely because owners/management want them to. It usually has little to do with anything medical.

And quite often it's a case of "well, the INJURY isn't holding him back" while ignoring the "but he hasn't really finished his rehabilitation and strength training" as well as "it's healed, but not fully healed".

But you're right. These teams are only messing around with hundred million dollar budgets yearly. It's not like the bulls tried to get rose to come back early or anything.

 

[charsace]

I think its stupid for Westbrook to rush back. This could end up being Penny all over again. The Thunder are a playoff team even if he isn't there. They don't need him back as soon as possible. Rose did the smart thing. People called Jordan a bitch because the Bulls wouldn't let him come back from his knee injury. In the end it worked out for the best because he fully healed up. Westbrook should just sit out until he's fully healthy.

 

[reilo]

Giri makes a good point. His injury might be fully healed, but his body was in a long state of muscular atrophy. The rehab is the most important part of a recovery, and it's quite clear that given the original timeline, Westbrook and the FO decided he didn't need to complete it.

When doctors give a timeline for an athlete, that includes the rehab, and not just how long it takes for the injury to fully heal.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

We've seen this shit time and time again...

In fact, athletes get more shit for taking their time coming back from injury (Rose, anyone?) and get labeled "tough" and "brave" for coming back early.

Westbrook coming back early and being just fine will be an exception, and it would still be dumb, especially only two games into the season.

How do you know it's dumb? Have you seen him work out recently? Do you know how the knee feels?

All you're doing is making an assumption and applying it to this case. How about we take a wait and see approach before we prematurely claim he is being rushed back? Let's see how he looks on the court tonight and how he holds up.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I hear the lateral is even worse because that's the one that helps you move side to side.

Much quicker recovery time, though.

 

[reilo]

How do you know it's dumb? Have you seen him work out recently? Do you know how the knee feels?

All you're doing is making an assumption and applying it to this case. How about we take a wait and see approach before we prematurely claim he is being rushed back? Let's see how he looks on the court tonight and how he holds up.

I am working under the only fact we have at our disposal:

The doctors set a timeline for YNB to return 20-games into the season based on years and years of experiences and case studies founded upon prior athletes recovery time.

Westbrook is coming back 20 games early. That is THE definition of being rushed back. Why am I supposed to believe that Westbrook is some sort of miracle athlete?

 

[giri]

Giri makes a good point. His injury might be fully healed, but his body was in a long state of muscular atrophy. The rehab is the most important part of a recovery, and it's quite clear that given the original timeline, Westbrook and the FO decided he didn't need to complete it.

When doctors give a timeline for an athlete, that includes the rehab, and not just how long it takes for the injury to fully heal.

And it's the fact that you don't do your rehab properly that starts the litany of other injuries that are "related". You start trying to compensate etc.

YNB may not be my favorite bball player of all time. But i do hate to see players lose their careers to injury. Even shit hole douche bags like Bynum.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

Not everyone heals at the same rate. Show me these numerous case studies though.

 

[giri]

Not everyone heals at the same rate. Show me these numerous case studies though.

They're right here.

 

[charsace]

Not everyone heals at the same rate. Show me these numerous case studies though.

They don't. You don't want him coming back on a healed, but weak, joint and reinjuring it or worse. They have to be sure his knee can hold up to the strain he will be putting on it because if not...

 

[reilo]

Not everyone heals at the same rate. Show me these numerous case studies though.

Again, there's two components to coming back from injury: the injury healing itself and the rehab.

We have two facts at our disposal:

Westbrook's original injury had complications, so he had to get a SECOND surgery on the same area.

And two, Westbrook is coming back a full MONTH early from said injury, which means he didn't complete his rehab.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

They don't. You don't want him coming back on a healed, but weak, joint and reinjuring it or worse. They have to be sure his knee can hold up to the strain he will be putting on it because if not...

Well then how long do you hold him out?

They're right here.

So you can't think of any and post a link to google instead? It's not my job to back your claims up with facts.

 

[reilo]

Well then how long do you hold him out?

How about until he completes his original timeline? Or at least CLOSE to it?

 

[giri]

Well then how long do you hold him out?



So you can't think of any and post a link to google instead? It's not my job to back your claims up with facts.

It's not my fault you know so little and are so gullible combined with lazy whilst being obstinately ignorant.

But please, don't go educate your self on any of the topics raised.

Btw, i believe someone at the knicks has a trade for you about this barganani guy. Back in 2010 he had this 6 week stretch where he ....

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I don't like rushing Russ back, especially with his style of play. Hopefully he can keep from getting injured.

It is however clear that if you don't rehab correctly you will start to compensate and might have injuries on related joints/muscles.

 

[Forever]

This argument is dumb. So is Westbrook rushing back.

 

[reilo]

Giri, remember cornrow Amare's great stretch of 3 games after his microfracture surgery?

 

[Future PhaZe]

The Thunder are so much their own worst enemy these days

 

[Gucci Messiah]

How about until he completes his original timeline? Or at least CLOSE to it?

My question is do you think Russ is going to put his NBA career and millions of dollars on the line just to appease an organization, please fans, and appear "tough" to people?

Who is THAT dumb? D Rose got a lot of shit for taking his time from internet tough guys but do you think he really gave a shit what they thought? I think he was more concerned about his long term revenue earning potential and physical health. Hopefully Westbrook takes the same approach. That's why I think he's ready to play but wouldn't be surprised to see him get limited minutes as they ease him back. It's not like he's going to be out there playing 42 minutes.

 

[giri]

Giri, remember cornrow Amare's great stretch of 3 games after his microfracture surgery?

Yeah. It was amazing. Worked out so well for everyone too. Didn't send the guy into a deep depression and delay his actual rehab at all. No sir. :|

My question is do you think Russ is going to put his NBA career and millions of dollars on the line just to appease an organization, please fans, and appear "tough" to people?

Who is THAT dumb? D Rose got a lot of shit for taking his time from internet tough guys but do you think he really gave a shit what they thought? I think he was more concerned about his long term revenue earning potential and physical health. Hopefully Westbrook takes the same approach. That's why I think he's ready to play but wouldn't be surprised to see him get limited minutes as they ease him back. It's not like he's going to be out there playing 42 minutes.

You realise Rose had to go and get an outside doctors opinion because he no longer trusted the "team" medical staff. Right?

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

My question is do you think Russ is going to put his NBA career and millions of dollars on the line just to appease an organization, please fans, and appear "tough" to people?

Who is THAT dumb? D Rose got a lot of shit for taking his time from internet tough guys but do you think he really gave a shit what they thought? I think he was more concerned about his long term revenue earning potential and physical health. Hopefully Westbrook takes the same approach. That's why I think he's ready to play but wouldn't be surprised to see him get limited minutes as they ease him back. It's not like he's going to be out there playing 42 minutes.

Kevin Love came back early last season and reinjured himself.

It happens. Although when you're dealing with the knee you should probably be even more careful.

 

[reilo]

My question is do you think Russ is going to put his NBA career and millions of dollars on the line just to appease an organization, please fans, and appear "tough" to people?

Who is THAT dumb? D Rose got a lot of shit for taking his time from internet tough guys but do you think he really gave a shit what they thought? I think he was more concerned about his long term revenue earning potential and physical health. Hopefully Westbrook takes the same approach. That's why I think he's ready to play but wouldn't be surprised to see him get limited minutes as they ease him back. It's not like he's going to be out there playing 42 minutes.

In a world of guaranteed contracts? Westbrook gets paid whether he plays tomorrow or he doesn't, so the money argument holds zero weight given that he has four more years left on his contract.

And you seem to think noone is that dumb to do that... But athletes do. All of the fucking time, in every sport: basketball, football, baseball, motorsports, MMA...

And in fact, they are more likely to do it in other sports given that if you don't play, you don't get paid. Unlike in the world of the NBA and guaranteed contracts...

Two players that did exactly that? Brandon Roy and Amare Stoudemire.

Hell, even a guy like Kobe plays injured all of the time.

And the athletes like Rose that do take their time? They get slaughtered for it. The pressure to come back and play is bigger than the fear of reinjuring oneself.

In short, dumb. What's the upside of Westbrook coming back 20 games early? Do you have any?

 

[Gucci Messiah]

Kevin Love came back early last season and reinjured himself.

It happens. Although when you're dealing with the knee you should probably be even more careful.

Kevin Love broke his hand before the season, rested, and then broke it again during a game.

While rehabbing the hand he increased the intensity of his workouts and developed a knee problem that ended up ending his season.

 

[reilo]

Martell Webster broke his fifth metatarsal in his foot during the pre-season, came back in December and reinjured it the first game he was back.

 

[giri]

Martell Webster broke his fifth metatarsal in his foot during the pre-season, came back in December and reinjured it the first game he was back.

Told you. It's pointless.

 

[Forever]

Okay on the topic of how many fucks teams give about the long term health of their stars, I'm just going to have to raise the example of Chris Paul's meniscus injury.

From Bill Simmons.

My least favorite trend of the No Benjamins Association era: teams twisting the truth about potentially serious injuries so they don't hurt ticket sales, or because they know the media won't challenge their stories and call them out afterward. After seeing Boston string Celtics fans along with KG's bum knee and the Clippers legitimately lie about Blake Griffin's knee injury, when I heard the Hornets claim CP3 would miss only "four to six weeks" after "minor" knee surgery, my BS Detector started beeping. Especially since we learned that doctors removed Paul's torn meniscus ligament rather than repairing it.

Intrigued, I asked Will Carroll (the injury expert for Baseball Prospectus and Basketball Prospectus) for his thoughts. Will pointed me toward a piece he wrote about meniscus removal a few years ago. The key section: "One reason teams are so quick to allow this surgery is that the players come back so quickly, usually in a matter of weeks. But … surgeons don't repair the meniscus in most cases; they just take it out, either in part or in whole depending on the size of the tearing. That leaves the athlete with no shock. Eventually, with the remaining meniscus overstressed and aging, they end up with the bones grinding together. Yes, that's as bad as it sounds in a game of running and jumping."

(Hold on, we have to wait for the Hornets fans to clear out that puke from their mouths. Waiting … waiting … OK, we're good.)

More here.

The Hornets removed Chris Paul's meniscus. He has no meniscus in that knee anymore. They took it out because they were making a playoff push and the recovery time after removal was much faster than repairing it. This is likely to come back to haunt Paul down the line.

 

[Psychological Intellect]

Okay on the topic of how many fucks teams give about the long term health of their stars, I'm just going to have to raise the example of Chris Paul's meniscus injury.

From Bill Simmons.



More here.

The Hornets removed Chris Paul's meniscus. He has no meniscus in that knee anymore. They took it out because they were making a playoff push and the recovery time after removal was much faster than repairing it. This is likely to come back to haunt Paul down the line.

Wade got his Meniscus removed rather than repaired back in college and believes that's why his knee has been injured so many times.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

In a world of guaranteed contracts? Westbrook gets paid whether he plays tomorrow or he doesn't, so the money argument holds zero weight given that he has four more years left on his contract.

You think he's satisfied with the money he'll make on his current deal? If that's the case why not play for the league minimum when his contract is up so they can sign more talent? I'd bet you anything that will never happen; these athletes live a lavish lifestyle an it's normal to horde money. So yeah, his revenue potential does warrant a place in the discussion and can't be dismissed as irrelevant. You actually helped me by pointing out he gets paid whether or not he plays.

 

[DY_nasty]

Didn't you claim the cavs were rushing Bynum back even though he plays 8 minutes a game and doesn't participate in back to backs?

Yeah...I don't think Westbrook is being rushed back. He's not stupid, if he wasn't ready to go he wouldn't play and risk millions of dollars.

And the Sixers have 79 games left to play.

No. I claimed that the Cavs were rushing back as did others until it was revealed that he was under minutes limitations.

And, like Bynum, doctors said that there expected return to the court would be much later as well.

There just aren't any positives to guys coming back early.

You think he's satisfied with the money he'll make on his current deal? If that's the case why not play for the league minimum when his contract is up so they can sign more talent? I'd bet you anything that will never happen; these athletes live a lavish lifestyle an it's normal to horde money. So yeah, his revenue potential does warrant a place in the discussion and can't be dismissed as irrelevant. You actually helped me by pointing out he gets paid whether or not he plays.

That went completely over your head. Holy shit.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Kevin Love broke his hand before the season, rested, and then broke it again during a game.

While rehabbing the hand he increased the intensity of his workouts and developed a knee problem that ended up ending his season.

I don't disagree. He hurt is hand on his own and came back three weeks early, reinjuring it. So coming back early can indeed be bad.

When I was talking about the knee I was referring to YNB.

 

[reilo]

Okay on the topic of how many fucks teams give about the long term health of their stars, I'm just going to have to raise the example of Chris Paul's meniscus injury.

From Bill Simmons.



More here.

The Hornets removed Chris Paul's meniscus. He has no meniscus in that knee anymore. They took it out because they were making a playoff push and the recovery time after removal was much faster than repairing it. This is likely to come back to haunt Paul down the line.

Brandon Roy tore his meniscus first week of April (the last bit he had), the doctors completely removed it and he was back for the playoffs ten days later.

I was at the game, too, when the they were blaring the Rocky theme over the speakers as the crowd was going fucking wild as he was checking into the scorers table.

Portland lost that series, and we all know how Roy'a career went from that point on.

 

[reilo]

You think he's satisfied with the money he'll make on his current deal? If that's the case why not play for the league minimum when his contract is up so they can sign more talent? I'd bet you anything that will never happen; these athletes live a lavish lifestyle an it's normal to horde money. So yeah, his revenue potential does warrant a place in the discussion and can't be dismissed as irrelevant. You actually helped me by pointing out he gets paid whether or not he plays.

Holy shit this was the dumbest thing I read all day.

 

[Psychological Intellect]

Holy shit this was the dumbest thing I read all day.

with those one sentence responses you might end up on his ignore list


edit:LOL

 

[Forever]

I'm mildly annoyed that he welched on his bet and left me to wear this avatar alone.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

Holy shit this was the dumbest thing I read all day.

So no legitimate counter argument?

 

[reilo]

So no legitimate counter argument?

That would require a legitimate point to argue. You're not even reading what I am saying.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

I'm mildly annoyed that he welched on his bet and left me to wear this avatar alone.

Lets ignore the fact that I got my name changed which is way worse

 

[Gucci Messiah]

That would require a legitimate point to argue. You're not even reading what I am saying.

I've read every single world and you've made good points when making an effort, I just don't agree

 

[Blackace]

So no legitimate counter argument?

His potential earnings are ruined if he ends up like Roy..

 

[Forever]

Lets ignore the fact that I got my name changed which is way worse

MVP didn't do that to you. You made a bet with him and it wasn't conditional on having your name changed. If you wanna break your word that's your call bro, but don't act like you're not welching.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

His potential earnings are ruined if he ends up like Roy..

I know this and I'm arguing that Russell is aware of that as well which is why he wouldn't come back 3 games into the season unless he felt like he was 100%.

Is that hard to imagine?

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

MVP didn't do that to you. You made a bet with him and it wasn't conditional on having your name changed. If you wanna break your word that's your call bro, but don't act like you're not welching.

Yea, weak for sure.