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2013 Jan NBA Season lOT| Beautiful Black Bodies on Top
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
Beat LA!
Pacers have an offense to get back? I don't know how you can criticise Rudy Gay in one breath, and then make positive statements about Granger after last year. Apart from shooting the 3 better, they had fairly similar numbers.
Nets ceiling is higher than the pacers, but it all revolves around Deron getting his shot back... which i'm not sure he can do with out surgery and proper rehab on that wrist.
And i don't disagree about gay, that's why i said someone like Ilyasova of last year, who was extremely efficient and was on fire from 3 (shot .455) which is exactly what they need, would be great. Particularly if they could get dunleavy too. But i'm not sure who on that team would then take a final shot or something like that. Who would lead them on O. It would be a weird makeup.
And i'm unconvinced that playing tony Allen more is going to lead to long term success. His net worth on O is so horrible that it makes the post moves that Gasol and Randolph do more impressive as Allens man basically just leaves him and doubles. It's why they desperately want Ellington to be consistent from 3, and not streaky.
Their bench scoring isn't horrible if Speights is able to bail them out with jumpers.... it's just that Bayless makes some horrible decisions with the ball in hand and puts them in tough spots. And Ellington is streaky.
Dominican Power
Member
You sound like someone that watches every Knicks game. And The Knicks have still been scoring despite not shooting so hot from 3. It's the defense that's setting them back.
So they could have a few more years of this horrible team they've had for the past 4? There's this myth that when you blow up your playoff team you tank and get a game changing player. When more often then not, you tank and then tank tank tank tank tank tank for several years afterwards.
The correct way to do it, is to keep your playoff team in tact, add pieces, and try to contend while you still have playoff talent. Once your main guy leaves (retires, demands a trade, leaves in FA) then you begin to rebuild. Not blow up your playoff team BEFORE the main guy wants to leave, thus usually pushing him away more...See: Orlando after 09. Phx after 10, Utah a couple years ago. Detroit after their last ECF trip. None of those teams have gotten anywhere near back to where they were and won't be for the foreseeable future.
you're the one that's been saying they clearly could beat us, and in each game they've played us they've gotten progressively worse. only one even close to hinting at dominance here is you.
and despite them having NO bright spots you still use the "knicks cant keep shooting 3s like this" excuse. What gives Nets the edge over us? Coach Killer? IsoJoe? Gerald Wallace? Dude isn't even as good as his Sactown days.
This team has nothing but go ahead and continue your lolknicks hate
The first will be contradicted in your second bolded sentence.
The second bolded sentence, shows you really don't think before posting any piece of bullshit that comes to mind.
Just about everything in it is factually incorrect.
The third shows you really just don't know much about what is happening with other NBA teams outside the lakers.
Rodeo Clown
All aboard! The Love train!
This is true. They could have blown it up with Iverson's expiring deal, but Dumars went and blew all the money that summer on bad/mediocre players. So they've been hanging around, not being bad enough to get a top pick and not being good enough to get in the playoffs.
And he's still employed, which is pretty nuts.
Wow. ok. The Cavs keep adding around Lebron, keep spending money, and have the best teams they've ever had. He leaves, they start all over again. The Suns, by contrast, after making the WCF decide to not match Amare's deal. Blow their team up, and then overpay other players leading to two years of Nash not being surrounded by the same level talent he had, then him wanting a trade.
You clearly don't know the definition of blowing your team up. It doesn't mean you trade away everyone. It means, instead of adding complimentary players, you decide to scrap one or more main piece, and go in another direction, USUALLY WORSE.
They did blow their team up. The fact that Dumars decided to overpay Gordon and Charlie V doesn't mean they didn't blow up their playoff team. They blew it up when they traded away Chauncey.
Dominican Power
Member
What you're saying is that Dummars allocated the money to keep the team as playoff contender to the wrong players. That's what did them in.
jobber
Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
they screwed themselves by not picking Melo.
Again, just about everything here is actually incorrect.
But keep going, i'd love to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Dumars traded away Chauncey to blow it up - that's what Iverson's expiring was for. Ownership still wanted a playoff team. Ownership fucked that team for at least 5 years.
You said 1-2 like its a big deal, not me. I'm not going to reference a team's regular season against Miami like it gives them a shot against them or something lol.
Knicks need the momentum more than any other playoff team in the East. They need to win games. Regular season matters to them because they're fucking terrified. Every other team in the East that knows that they aren't tanking knows that they simply need to stay above .500 and figure out what works before March.
You said 1-2 like its a big deal, not me. I'm not going to reference a team's regular season against Miami like it gives them a shot against them or something lol.
Knicks need the momentum more than any other playoff team in the East. They need to win games. Regular season matters to them because they're fucking terrified. Every other team in the East that knows that they aren't tanking knows that they simply need to stay above .500 and figure out what works before March.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
*Brofist*
Really? Enlighten me. You're wrong, but as usual, because I'm pointing out the Suns mistakes, you're going to take it personally and resort to your usual personal insults. Which is what you always do like clockwork.
I guess you'll make some argument about how not matching Amare's contract was the right thing to do. If you matched it, you'd have Nash/Amare/probably a bench, and could have Nash for his entire career, more likely then not with a playoff seed. Instead, you lost your two best players of the last decade, didn't make the playoffs after your WCF visit, and have been mediocre to bad since. And your team is filled with utter crap across the board, and you're only hope is Dragic, who, let's face it...isn't good enough to be a top 3 player on a championship team.
Edit: Phx made the same mistake Orlando made after their Finals trip by not keeping their team in tact. They tried the next year with Carter and got to the ECF but the mistake they made was blowing up the Finals team instead of adding pieces to their core 4 guys. Hornets blew up their playoff team by trading away Chandler, who is obviously a hell of a lot better than Okafor. Jazz did it by letting Boozer walk.
I'm not saying these teams would be winning a chip, but they'd be playoff teams with decent seeding with Paul/Chandler. Nash/Amare. Williams/Boozer. Instead of in a perpetual hole they can't get out of.
Dominican Power
Member
You must think every team is The Miami Heat. You can't just coast through and expect to get it together in the playoffs.
I don't think Vag understands how "blowing it up" works because he spent such a good part dogging Utah for getting that haul for Deron Williams.
Minnesota, Portland, Golden State, Seattle/OKC... it works fine as long as management and ownership are on the same page and both parties are patient. Hell, due to the new CBA, even the Bobcats will be in the black next year and have multiple picks to show for it while Bob Johnson was probably the worst owner in the NBA over the past decade.
Minnesota, Portland, Golden State, Seattle/OKC... it works fine as long as management and ownership are on the same page and both parties are patient. Hell, due to the new CBA, even the Bobcats will be in the black next year and have multiple picks to show for it while Bob Johnson was probably the worst owner in the NBA over the past decade.
Everyone knows what to expect in the playoffs except NY.
For example, you can't be a pathetic rebounding team and expect do play live/die by the 3 in a 7 game series - especially when those shooters suck. The only teams that I would be somewhat confident about NY being competitive with right now are Milwaukee and Philadelphia.
I meant blowing up a playoff team with 4-5 seeding or above...as I said earlier. Minny hadn't made the playoffs for years before they traded KG. Portland made the playoffs but Roy was done, had to retire. That's not blowing up your team, it's like Kobe retiring. Golden State? Best they got was 8th seed before they blew it up. and Seattle didn't make the playoffs for a couple years before they traded away Allen.
Edit: Again, you guys are just proving my point with these examples. Not disputing it. Blowing up a perennial playoff team that's a 4-5 seed or above by getting rid of one or more of it's main components instead of just adding complimentary pieces and going as far as you can, is a bad idea. Period. You may luck out, but it's really really rare. PHX and UTAH did it after the 2010 season and have been irrelevant ever since. When they could have easily got 2 more playoff seasons out of those teams and had a chance to get their main guys to stay around longer.
Dominican Power
Member
Like Miami, right?
Red Blaster
Member
Still hoping the Celtics hang on to make the playoffs and match up with the Knicks in the 1st round
i'm positive Rondo would son Failton even more than Jameer did in 2010
i'm positive Rondo would son Failton even more than Jameer did in 2010
Knicks are as good as Miami now?
And Amare had no fucking knees so why did you reference PHX?
Suns mistakes, are many, and you're even on the right path to some, but where you left it is just wrong and factually incorrect.
making it personal? i've done anything but make it personal. I've just simply said you're wrong, and gave you strong indications of why. I haven't called you any names at all or got into it.
Farnkly, there's such a dearth of background basketball history and knowledge that you're attempting to just skip over because it's either convenient to your incorrect point or you just don't know, that to fill in the blanks would require a trax esque post.
But i'll leave you with this as a start
LBJ "Left in free agency" the way that "Nash was traded as he demanded". Both actually left almost in the exact same way, one just held a national press conference / half hour show about it.
Yes he did. He was just fine with the PHX crack Medical Staff. And what messed him up was being in NY before Melo came, playing all those intense minutes, and then he wore out.
I'm not saying Amare is worth a 100 million, or Boozer is worth his contract either. That's irrelevant. You pay Amare a 100 million, keep Nash for 2-3 more years. Make the playoffs every year. And Nash probably stays. If he goes this year anyway, you have Amare for only 2 years left...you start the rebuild process then. Not prematurely. Same with Boozer/Williams. When you suck, you blow it up and start again. You don't do it when you're good.
The Cavs kept trying to build a championship team around Lebron. They offered him a bigger and better contract than anyone else. Lebron left despite that. The Suns told Nash to go look for offers. They blew up a WCF team and left him without playoff talent for 2 years. The fact that you would consider the two situations identical is laughable.
PHX didn't bite precisely because they knew of his knees. They'd entertained matching offers but when NY said "non-insured" they bailed and I can't think of many who'd believe they're wrong for that.
Boozer was holding his team back and they wanted him gone for two years prior to him going to Chicago. Its documented how the locker room was mostly against him and how management and ownership wanted Millsap to get the minutes instead of Boozer.
And what's the point of making the playoffs year after year and losing THEN doing a rebuild which is going to take more time?
The Celtics are bad. They might win a game, but they are a first round exit. PEACE.
LegendofJoe
Member
Celtics are 2-8 in their last 10 and look like complete ass despite having "talent" on the team. Rondo's stats look great though lol
Obviously teams have reasons for thinking that blowing up a team is a good idea. And it's usually based on not wanting the player back, or not wanting to give him that much money. You're pointing to the reasons why PHX and Utah made those moves, not to their effectiveness.
The bolded part is the entire issue. When you have All Star Caliber players (Nash and D-Will in this case) and a team that consistently gets you into the first, second, or third round. You try to maximize that group first. When the talent leaves, then you rebuild. There's this myth that if you blow up faster, you'll just get good faster. But that's not true. Losing out on sure fire multiple playoff seasons just to start the rebuild faster is dumb.
There are many people who preach that being a middling playoff team is the worst thing you can be. But it's really not. Being a crap team like Sacramento or Washington is the worst thing you can be. And going from middling playoff team to Detroit/Phx/Utah status sooner than you need to because you think it will make your rise faster, is just silly.
sigh, and this is why i can't be bothered to continue, you're so far off point there's no real point in continuing unless i want to write an essay explaining in detail about it because you just love to add 1 + dumb and get vag-conclusion.
so, parade around in moral victory over my apathy, i guess?
Effectiveness can be gauged by not paying a cripple 100 million dollars over 5 years and not paying a guy who gets outperformed in the playoffs by an all-purpose role player 80 million dollars - the latter has never been able to step up and carry a team for a single game by himself. Favors is already on pace to be better than either of those guys in two years. The only thing holding him back is the frontcourt logjam on the Jazz. Also, each of the players in front of him are better than Boozer and Amare too. So I don't even know why harp on them like they were worth keeping.
Nash is old as hell too.
LegendofJoe
Member
I completely agree with your first point. The draft is based too much on luck to place a lot of stock on a quick rebuild. It could take you two years or it could take you 4 or 5, there's too much uncertainty involved to know. Your second point though depends on the circumstances. If you went to the conference finals the year prior or you're a top 5 team in your conference/good young team with upside left hell yea you should keep your core together. If you're capped out as a 6 to 8 seed with little upside left though it's time to go in fuck it mode and rebuild.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/NBA-revenue.aspx
I wish someone could bring up the old arguments about the CBA negotiations and laugh at certain people.
Some teams hit that 4th seed with the writing on the wall though. That's the difference. Like if Atlanta blew it all up last season, no one would've argued.
Yes.
The pro-owner stance was never even respectable.
If it wasn't for the Knicks the Lakers would be coached by Phil Jackson now.
Fuck da Knicks.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Really though, most teams have no chance whatsoever at true contention so the goal for most should just be to keep them interesting. A team that makes the playoffs one year can be exciting even if they get bumped in the first-round. The same core losing in the first-round again two years later is not. A team limping around for five years in the playoffs while players become more and more bored with the situation isn't really fun to watch so a sooner rebuild can be alright even if playoff years are thrown away.
Then again, trading away Rudy Gay probably wouldn't end up with the Grizzlies rebuilding since they'll probably just be able to give his possessions to Conley and Z-bo and be just as good as a whole. Just like how the Hawks trading away Joe Johnson didn't end in a rebuild.
Then again, trading away Rudy Gay probably wouldn't end up with the Grizzlies rebuilding since they'll probably just be able to give his possessions to Conley and Z-bo and be just as good as a whole. Just like how the Hawks trading away Joe Johnson didn't end in a rebuild.
victreeb3l
Member
so this laker bro is apparently gonna do some commercials for the organization now?
Grizzlies should've fired their coach before ever considering to move Rudy Gay.
Dude was a clown in the playoffs last year.
You're still working off this mindset that "Rebuild takes X amount of time, sooner you start, sooner you'll be good". And the assumption that D Will and Nash would have absolutely left if they saw their owners spending to keep their best players around and adding pieces. Both those assumptions aren't sure-fire facts though.
The Suns and Utah have been significantly worse over the past 2 seasons then they needed to be if they kept their post 2010 teams in tact and added complimentary pieces. That's pretty obvious, and they're no closer to championship contention because they blew the teams up.
1st Bolded = Exactly!
2nd Bolded = I know it seems like having a team consistently hit the second round and lose isn't fun to watch, but then when you're team is perpetually out of the playoffs and can't win 40 games. Most people would probably want their playoff teams with one or two All Stars on it back.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Z-bo has played good defense with the Grizzlies. I can't hate on Hollins, even if he obviously has no clue about game management, because of that.
Deron and Boozer were either going to leave or be like they are now (much worse than they were) in 2010. AK47 left the NBA during the lockout (and didn't fit the team anyway so probably wouldn't have come back), Memo retired due to a devastating Achilles injury and Sloan retired due to age...How are you arguing that they could have or should have kept that 2010 team together?
It wasn't even about Deron Williams leaving the team with nothing as it was that Deron was damaging the organization. It doesn't matter if Nash stayed or left because he was old as hell. You can't compliment bad knees, old age, inadequacy in the playoffs, or locker room trouble. Moving on is better than sitting on unfixable problems - and that applies to all investments.
I wouldn't even say that Utah is significantly worse either and the problem with PHX is that their ownership won't allow them to fully tank. That's why the #tradegortat wagon is ongoing.
Dominican Power
Member
Blame your owner's shithead son.
It was just dumb. Never made sense.
PHX was 2 wins away from it's best season in the Nash era. Just last year most the people on this board were saying Nash was the best PG in the game. What are you talking about dude.
Deron Williams "damaging the organization". Star players have issues with coaches and GM's. Magic got his coach fired, Jordan did the same with Collins. Kobe did the same with Brown. If your super conservative team is going to trade away your superstar every time he doesn't listen to every command or order you give or takes exception with something you do and you just let your second best player walk instead of giving him a contract, you're not going to keep a lot of stars around. They had one of the top 2-5 guys at his position who was dragging his team to the playoffs year in and year out and losing against the Champion Lakers and he was traded because they didn't like how he talked to Sloan or whatever the hell. When you have all star talent, do whatever the hell it takes to make your team better. You're not always going to have all star talent. In the lean years, you can tank properly as the Suns should be doing NOW. But not in the years you have playoff caliber teams.