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[linsivvi]

MJ
Russ
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Dream
TD
Shaq
Kobe

Swap Shaq and TD and that'd be my list. LeBron takes the last slot. The question is, where?

To people who question Dream over Shaq. Dream shitted all over everyone in the league, including Shaq. Shaq was already in his prime during the Orlando years, my knock on him has always been that he never worked hard to improve his game. He could have been even better.

 

[Blackace]

I'm not mad at this list.

How could you be?

 

[reilo]

Kobe is literally the most irrationally hated all time great ever. top 4 in scoring all time. 5 chips (Only Russell, Kareem, or Jordan have more)

2 Finals MVP's (Only Wilt, Russell, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, Shaq have more). Most ALL NBA First teams and ALL NBA First Team Defenses.

His last 15 years, all things considered is as good of a 15 year stretch as anyone has ever had in the NBA...except possibly Russel and those dudes in the Celtics 60's dynasty.

Kobe is 8th or 9th best of all time tops. Maybe.

This is actually probably the nicest thing reilo has ever said about Kobe.

that being the nicest thing you've ever said, is proof of the irrational hate. How do you not see that.

MJ
Russ
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Dream
TD
Shaq
Kobe

Shaq has one more finals MVP. That's it. Less ALL NBA Selections and played on much better teams.

TD. I've explained that already. and Dream. 2 chips, 2 Finals MVP's. 1 MVP. How is that more impressive than Kobe? Only has 6 ALL NBA First Team Selections. Less PPG, Less APG, Less SPG. Less ALL NBA Defense Selections.

I'm comparing actual facts. Those guys have higher Rpg and Bpg because they are Bigs. Kobe has a higher PPG, APG, and SPG then them.


More consistently great career. As many MVP's, More all NBA Selections Offense and Defense. More All Star Selections. More Chips.


Shaq has one more Finals MVP despite playing with Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Lebron, Boston Big 3. Kobe played with Shaq, Pau. Dwight. Who's had more talent?

Cool so, no rebuttal. You can have Shaq and the Dream ahead of Kobe. But as I pointed out, it's not rooted in stats, accomplishments, accolades, or anything other than...well, let's not call it irrational hate. Let's call it love of big men

no...this kind of dumbass response is a hissy fit. What you do regularly.

I'm just responding with listing accomplishments. I get it, you don't wanna get into it because you've been losing arguments all night. That's cool. I understand.


But calling it a hissy fit...classic Reilo.

No, not a hissy fit guys. Not at all.

 

[Trey]

Kobe has never been the best player in the league during any season. His MVP award was a gift.

Should have gotten it instead of Nash.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Vagh,

You're behaving in a way that many of the Xbox fans are right now on the gaming side. Except replace Xbone with Kobe.

Stop.

kobe drm?

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

The way he dismantled Robinson that series was naassstttyy. One of the worst beat downs to a fellow star in ball history.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

kobe drm?

When you give your buddy a game you don't get it back.
When you give Kobe the ball, you're not getting it back.

 

[reilo]

When you give your buddy a game you don't get it back.
When you give Kobe the ball, you're not getting it back.

Based Bolton

 

[Vahagn]

Cool so. Shaq and Hakeem arguments are rooted in essentially - Vag stop, just be happy we even considered Kobe in the top 10 despite placing people ahead of him irrationally.


I'm ok with that, long as you know what your argument is.

 

[TheKaeptain]

How does he not get t'd for showing up ref more often... I guess he could have sprinted to the other end of the court again but still.

Highlight of the game for me.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Everyone promise not to respond to him.

 

[charsace]

Another thing I forgot to consider that was right when the leagues got back together. There was lots of disarray among teams.

As you note there really was no second option, even the Admiral wasn't that kind of guy anymore. But they kept winning because every game one of those various guys would get hot from beyond the arc (Jackson, Kerr) or show flashes of the future (Parker, Manu) and they'd get that 15-20 they needed to compliment Duncan.

And the defense as always was stellar.

Plus some timely injuries in the playoffs.

Which is kinda similar to how those LeBron Cavs won so many games. Though Z and Mo were probably more consistent in general.

The 60 win cav teams were statistically top notch as a defensive team. The main difference between the teams is Duncan and Lebron.

 

[Blackace]

The way he dismantled Robinson that series was naassstttyy. One of the worst beat downs to a fellow star in ball history.

Nobody had to go through a gauntlet of the position stars and owned their souls like Dream did those two years

D-Rob Ewing Shaq

 

[reilo]

Everyone promise not to respond to him.

I haven't had this much fun since Trax was still alive.

 

[Jack Remington]

Dude, why do you have to "defend" Kobe's "honor" at all costs?

Seriously, who fucking cares?

You make yourself such an easy target...if I was the fan of another team, I would dismantle you with Kobe trolls.

.

Who do you take between Peak Cloving and Peak Vag?

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

Cool so. Shaq and Hakeem arguments are rooted in essentially - Vag stop, just be happy we even considered Kobe in the top 10 despite placing people ahead of him irrationally.


I'm ok with that, long as you know what your argument is.

Are you ok with it? Doesn't seem like you're ok with people having an opinion that differs than yours on where to rank a 1 time MVP, career 45% FG shooting guard who has played with Shaq and Pau, and been coached by Phil.

 

[Blackace]

Cool so. Shaq and Hakeem arguments are rooted in essentially - Vag stop, just be happy we even considered Kobe in the top 10 despite placing people ahead of him irrationally.


I'm ok with that, long as you know what your argument is.

people explained

You just aren't listening

 

[benjipwns]

Outside of Jordan how many perimeter stars have won 50+ games and regularly made the second round or so of the playoffs without a corresponding All-Star level big man or even if we want to include Jordan without an All-Star sidekick or two in general? How many bigmen stars have done the same without the corresponding All-Star level perimeter sidekick?

 

[Blackace]

.

Who do you take between Peak Cloving and Peak Vag?

Cloving without a doubt

 

[Vahagn]

Are you ok with it? Doesn't seem like you're ok with people having an opinion that differs than yours on where to rank a 1 time MVP, career 45% FG shooting guard who has played with Shaq and Pau, and been coached by Phil.

Again. Hakeem and Shaq are also 1 time MVP's. And Shaq's played with Wade, Lebron, Nash, Penny etc.

I'm ok with lot's of things, not this level of absurd irrationality though.

people explained

You just aren't listening

Because during his 2 year run, everyone knew Hakeem was the best. Right? The 2 years Jordan went to go play baseball? Where he was the best before and immediately after that 2 year run?

Seems kinda shaky to me

 

[Starphoenix]

Kobe is literally the most irrationally hated all time great ever.

Pretty sure the rape scandal has a lot to do with that. It does for me.

 

[benjipwns]

Again. Hakeem and Shaq are also 1 time MVP's. And Shaq's played with Wade, Lebron, Nash, Penny etc.

Who doesn't think Shaq didn't really deserve probably at least three except people tried to make all sorts of excuses for why Shaq couldn't really be the best?

And a lot of people think Hakeem's 1995 WCF probably refuted at least one MVP vote he didn't win.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

Again. Hakeem and Shaq are also 1 time MVP's. And Shaq's played with Wade, Lebron, Nash, Penny etc.

I'm ok with lot's of things, not this level of absurd irrationality though.

Except Shaq and Hakeem didn't play in their prime with as much support as Kobe. Shaq was done when he played with Nash and LeBron. He won a ring with Wade even though he was past his prime.

Shaq dominated more than Kobe ever has. Hakeem was more dominant than Kobe ever has been.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

.

Who do you take between Peak Cloving and Peak Vag?

Peak Absinthe and Peak Branduil >>>

Fucking Twin Towers.

 

[Raziel]

-Kobe made Duncan look like his gf dumped him and his dog died on the same day, in 01.

http://youtu.be/pVwz_Vg6xs0?t=2m42s

Dude. Duncan made Kobe cry. As in sob and shed tears.

well. losing coming off a 3-peat is a downer duncan never had to experience.

 

[reilo]

One of these days Vaggy will stop posting after we find out that Konex went prison for homicide.

 

[Blackace]

Outside of Jordan how many perimeter stars have won 50+ games and regularly made the second round or so of the playoffs without a corresponding All-Star level big man or even if we want to include Jordan without an All-Star sidekick or two in general? How many bigmen stars have done the same without the corresponding All-Star level perimeter sidekick?

Besides LBJ?

 

[snack]

Sounds about right to me.

Where's Duncan?

 

[Jack Remington]

Because during his 2 year run, everyone knew Hakeem was the best. Right? The 2 years Jordan went to go play baseball? Where he was the best before and immediately after that 2 year run?

Seems kinda shaky to me

Do you realize how many goddamn amazing players there were in the 90s? That was probably the deepest league ever.

 

[Vahagn]

Except Shaq and Hakeem didn't play in their prime with as much support as Kobe. Shaq was done when he played with Nash and LeBron. He won a ring with Wade even though he was past his prime.

Shaq dominated more than Kobe ever has. Hakeem was more dominant than Kobe ever has been.

Shaq in his prime had Kobe

Kobe in his absolute prime had Lamar and Smush. Even if you consider Pau to be his absolute prime, which it wasn't. Frobe is light years ahead of Pau. You do realize this right? No other all time great has spent his absolute peak prime on a bad team except maybe the Big O and Wilt like Kobe did.

To consider Shaq, who's played every season with an ALL Star perimeter player as playing with less help than Kobe is just...what?

Do you realize how many goddamn amazing players there were in the 90s? That was probably the deepest league ever.

Prime Lebron is better than every single one of them in 1995. So is Prime TD. So is Prime Shaq, and Prime Kobe. What in the world are you smoking.

 

[Jack Remington]

Kind of figures Vag would be this huge a Kobe stan considering how often he shoots his own team out of games.

Also, Pau from 08-10 > Penny Hardaway.

 

[reilo]

Hakeem spent his absolute peak prime on a bad team.

Got a cookie to show for it, too.

 

[benjipwns]

Besides LBJ?

I didn't want to go there... lol

 

[ryutaro's mama]

So, Knicks-Age...if Reggie Miller were a Knick and everything about him was exactly the same (heart, drive, skill of play) can we agree he would have been the greatest Knick, ever?

You'd all have #31 throwbacks.

 

[reilo]

I didn't want to go there... lol

What about Iverson in 2001?

 

[Black Mamba]

Do you realize how many goddamn amazing players there were in the 90s? That was probably the deepest league ever.

I think there is better talent today but the expansion has spread it out too much.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

Shaq in his prime had Kobe

Kobe in his absolute prime had Lamar and Smush. Even if you consider Pau to be his absolute prime, which it wasn't. Frobe is light years ahead of Pau. You do realize this right? No other all time great has spent his absolute peak prime on a bad team except maybe the Big O and Wilt like Kobe did.

To consider Shaq, who's played every season with an ALL Star perimeter player as playing with less help than Kobe is just...what?

Heres the deal, Kobe isnt better than MJ, Magic, Kareem, Russell, and possibly/ probably Wilt, Bird. This bring us to the bottom 6-10. Kobe never EVER won and dominated like Hakeem did but had tons more support. Kobe NEVER dominated like Shaq did even when he was the Alpha. Kobe hasnt been the 1st option on as many chips as TD. Why would I choose Kobe over any of these players? Because he won 5 chips? Look at the teams. Because he played 17 years? Congrats. Because he has scored 30k points? So has Karl Malone. Why am I choosing Kobe?

 

[benjipwns]

What about Iverson in 2001?

Which is why I said "regularly" as I'm sure there are instances where everything comes together in one perfect season like that Sixers team and even in that case weren't both Ratliff and Mutombo named to the All-Star Team? (Even if we want to quibble on the selections, I'd argue they were basically providing superstar level defense and adequate offense to the team.)

I think there is better talent today but the expansion has spread it out too much.

I agree with you on the talent level of today. But the 90s were coming off massive expansion (Wolves, Magic, Heat, Hornets, Grizz, Raptors) as well. Plus some shit drafts (most of those in the late 80's are...) and less clear roles in some respects.

 

[reilo]

I was gonna mention Drexler but then I remember Duckworth made the ASG in '89, but that team only won 39 games.

Do '88 Blazers count? Kiki was well past his prime and injury prone.

Which is why I said "regularly" as I'm sure there are instances where everything comes together in one perfect season like that Sixers team and even in that case weren't both Ratliff and Mutombo named to the All-Star Team? (Even if we want to quibble on the selections, I'd argue they were basically providing superstar level defense and adequate offense to the team.)

Shit, Ratliff did make the ASG in '01. lol fucking East.

 

[linsivvi]

One of these days Vaggy will stop posting after we find out that Konex went prison for homicide.

If you guys would stop arguing with him over and over again on the same thing every day I would never see his posts at all.

 

[Black Mamba]

Ratliff and Mutumbo were defensive beasts back then. Ratliff became forgotten because of his injuries but dude could defend about as well as any big man.

Him being an all-star is like Tyson today (and Ratliff was better).

I agree with you on the talent level of today. But the 90s were coming off massive expansion (Wolves, Magic, Heat, Hornets, Grizz, Raptors) as well. Plus some shit drafts (most of those in the late 80's are...) and less clear roles in some respects.

I think we had a lull in the early 2000s but it picked up around the 2003 draft. The talent today is immense. And there's a lot more impactful older players than I remember 10 years ago.

We just have 4 teams too many.

 

[reilo]

'86 and 87 Hawks won 50+ and only had 'Nique as their All-Star until Rivers made it in '88.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

If you guys would stop arguing with him over and over again on the same thing every day I would never see his posts at all.

And he might be able to study.

 

[Hunter S.]

Nice, Evil incarnate aka Heat did not win. Justice.

 

[iamshadowlark]

I ain't trolling shit--it's called the truth.

I'd like to see a long series (since this is the last basketball we have till November) so I hope you guys can muster a win on Sunday.

Maybe Wade will get his special jowls inducing shot and you can get back in this series.

And to be fair, it doesn't matter if YOU are "fucking scared of them" or not, tough guy...it matters if the #MVP will have 2007 flashbacks in the 4th again like he did tonight.

At least he has his empty triple double to tuck him in at night though.

Trolling isn't exclusive to fact or fiction and your bullshit is tired so yeah.

I didn't watch the game yet but "07 flashback" does seem a bit hyperbolic according to the play by play. The whole empty trip dub bullshit is tired too. You complain of coming back to the same ole arguments but yet you come back with the same ole tired bullshit.

 

[benjipwns]

I was gonna mention Drexler but then I remember Duckworth made the ASG in '89, but that team only won 39 games.

Do '88 Blazers count? Kiki was well past his prime and injury prone.

Blazers were one team that popped into my head. Though Porter is really fucking good and may make up for it.

I was mostly thinking of those Hakeem and Robinson and hell, even Ewing teams that kept winning 50+ or going deep in the playoffs while rolling out some abject dreck as teammates.

I admit I didn't really even look it up for half a second on B-R or anything.

Ratliff and Mutumbo were defensive beasts back then. Ratliff became forgotten because of his injuries but dude could defend about as well as any big man.

Him being an all-star is like Tyson today (and Ratliff was better).



I think we had a lull in the early 2000s but it picked up around the 2003 draft. The talent today is immense. And there's a lot more impactful older players than I remember 10 years ago.

We just have 4 teams too many.

Yup, agree on when the talent started picking back up. It coincides sorta in when we stopped talking about Carter and Iverson and so on as superstars...

Agree on Ratliff as well, I think he told Hollinger shortly after coming back that he'd never be the same again due to his injuries, especially in mobility and speed. So it's kinda amazing he still kept swatting shots like mad and playing good D for years after.

 

[linsivvi]

And he might be able to study.

Reading his posts is like hearing this song from your favorite band over and over again on the radio, shopping malls, clubs, everywhere, until you get sick of it.

 

[Black Mamba]

Big man offensive talent is lacking, but I blame the rule changes for that. Honestly wonder if we'll ever see a truly dominant big come into the league again, offensively. I mean Hakeem-DRob-Shaq type dominance.

 

[reilo]

Blazers were one team that popped into my head. Though Porter is really fucking good and may make up for it.

I was mostly thinking of those Hakeem and Robinson and hell, even Ewing teams that kept winning 50+ or going deep in the playoffs while rolling out some abject dreck as teammates.

I admit I didn't really even look it up for half a second on B-R or anything.

In case you missed it:

'86 and 87 Hawks won 50+ and only had 'Nique as their All-Star until Rivers made it in '88.

And shit, '08 and '09 Blazers. Duh.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Dont you have to put Jerry West on top 10, all time?