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2013 NBA Finals |OT| The "Big 3" looks to hang another banner... against the Heat
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
ryutaro's mama
Member
Tell me one thing I said that wasn't the truth and "bullshit".
It's an inconvenient truth, I know but a truth nonetheless:
Your boy had a great game and disappeared in the 4th when the team really needed him, resulting in another worthless Finals triple double. (I think he had at least one in the 2011 Finals too)
That's a fact.
I know it's easier to cop out and say what I'm saying is "tired" but the truth is what it is: The ESPN proclaimed GOAT disappeared in the 4th.
Again.
iamshadowlark
Banned
West had some beast seasons, even though the league was kind of sucky.
benjipwns
Banned
Yeah, these are good. I guess I did cross the wires by talking about All-Star selections and then "All-Star level" and so I could argue myself out of those by pointing out Kevin Willis or Doc Rivers had 17+ PERs a couple times and same for LMA (who was even better). But that Hawks one especially is a nice example to ponder.
So we've got Jordan, LeBron and Nique when he was at his most insane scoring level.
And on the other end we have basically every good big ever lol
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Statically he shits all over Kobe in everything but points and ast.. and they aren't far off..
Rebounds, Steals, Blocks... regardless of position he was just a more valuable basketball player.
And then he owned the league for 2 years without much help one year and a showing his age Clyde the next. And really almost NO ONE has ever questioned Dream getting picked over MJ to this day.. and MJ is the greatest..
And on that list only MJ was the player you would say is the best player on both ends of the floor in almost any match-up.. Not with Kobe not with Magic not with Bird.. only Dream and MJ
'95 and '96 Pacers?
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Well he could be nine or ten
ryutaro's mama
Member
It's crazy how in shape Hakeem still looks today.
Jordan, Bird, Magic...all got fat.
Dream still looks like he could play.
Jordan, Bird, Magic...all got fat.
Dream still looks like he could play.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Bullshit isn't exclusive to fact or fiction. Again.
And unless the play by plays are lying, the stats show that you are full of shit. I'll watch the game and see but yeah, I'm calling bullshit.
Ok, these are better arguments. I'll go in order of bolded.
A) Kobe's numbers and Hakeem's playoff numbers through the "winning" time (09-10) and (94-95) are actually eerily similar once you realize the role differences for Big's and Smalls. (More rebounds and blocks for bigs, more apg, higher FT% for smalls) for example. Go look them up if you don't believe me. Even their TS% and overall scoring efficiency is identical.
B) Kobe's 2005-2006 Regular Season was more dominant than any Shaq has ever had. And the ThreePeat Years. Shaq's situation lines up with Kobe's and Hakeems. 28-31 ppg and the rest of the stats falling into place. Shaq feasted in the Finals because the Finalists had no Centers, this has been discussed. Not the same as playing against Boston with 2 HOF Perimeter players.
C) No he hasn't. But penalizing him for that is penalizing him for being on the Lakers when a prime Shaq was there. a 21 year old TD, a 21 year old MJ a 21 year old Magic would be the second option to a prime Shaq. This has also been discussed.
Your choosing Kobe because your memory of the respective performances isn't in line with reality. Kobe's had more longevity, he's gotten to the Finals more often than any of those 3, he's won more chips, he's scored more points, he's gotten more All Star Selections, more ALL NBA First team selections, etc.
obijkenobi
Member
I think the top 10 lists are pretty silly at the moment anyway. It's certainly possible that Kobe and Tim can move up the list since they are still playing at a high level. Especially Tim because I can definitely see him averaging a 20 and 10 in a 5th NBA Finals, especially if Miami thinks Anderson can defend him. (Kobe may have a massive drop off next season unless those German doctors can patch him up)
Anyway, what adjustments do you guys see the teams making for game 2. For the Spurs, anytime I see Anderson trying to guard TD, I'd immediately give him the ball in the post to punish him. I see that as an easy 2 points, a foul, or a kick out to an open 3 point shooter because of a double team. I'd also tell Kawhi to watch with the silly fouls on players not named Lebron. Kawhi being in foul trouble would ruin us. Also, I'd make sure to tell the role players to keep shooting open 3s no matter how many they miss. Finally, no Bonner. I'd rather go small with Tmac than play Bonner
Anyway, what adjustments do you guys see the teams making for game 2. For the Spurs, anytime I see Anderson trying to guard TD, I'd immediately give him the ball in the post to punish him. I see that as an easy 2 points, a foul, or a kick out to an open 3 point shooter because of a double team. I'd also tell Kawhi to watch with the silly fouls on players not named Lebron. Kawhi being in foul trouble would ruin us. Also, I'd make sure to tell the role players to keep shooting open 3s no matter how many they miss. Finally, no Bonner. I'd rather go small with Tmac than play Bonner
ryutaro's mama
Member
Watch the 4th quarter man.
Watch how LeBron plays versus how Tony Parker plays.
Tony scored 10 points alone in the 4th, man.
Watch how passive LeBron is.
Fuck the PBP...use your eyes.
I just realized that Duncan hasn't averaged above 35MPG since 2004 when he was 27 (36.6MPG) years old. His career MPG is right at 35.1MPG (41,447 minutes played).
You're arguing based on what you read in the play-by-play and you haven't watched the game? LOL
Bruh. I'm calling bullshit on you. At one point, Lebron had 16 points on 16FGA and 2FTA with 2 minutes to go in the fourth.
You're arguing based on what you read in the play-by-play and you haven't watched the game? LOL
Bruh. I'm calling bullshit on you. At one point, Lebron had 16 points on 16FGA and 2FTA with 2 minutes to go in the fourth.
The steals is .2 difference. That's hardly "shitting all over". Their TS% is the same. Kobe scores more points and gets more assists. Hakeem gets more blocks and gets more rebounds.
Kobe was a better defender than Bird and Magic. Only guy he wasn't better than was Jordan on that list as a perimeter player. Are you willing to say Dream was definitively better defensively than Russell or TD? Was he definitively better offensively then Wilt, Shaq, or Kareem?
I'm just not buying the argument man, you're making statements which just don't seem to be true.
ryutaro's mama
Member
The bolded is the most hilarious part..."but mama, the GAMECAST PBP clearly stated..."
Fucking lulz.
Jack Remington
Banned
.
Vahagn, you are literally shooting your own team out of the game right now. Literally. Like the way duki would use the word.
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
As I've said even during the Pacers series (I'm a Pacers fan), but fuck yeah Spurs. SAS and Memphis are the only other teams I root for in today's NBA.
Edit: I don't like Ginobli's flopping, but it's so much more tolerable than anyone else on the Heat.
Edit: I don't like Ginobli's flopping, but it's so much more tolerable than anyone else on the Heat.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
On both ends of the floor he was better than TD and Russell.. Russell was better on D and TD might have been but on both ends Dream was better. Just like MJ was better on both ends than Kobe.. and Larry Bird was a really good defender.. maybe better than Kobe.
benjipwns
Banned
One thing that comes to mind with Reggie's Pacers and also the Great Pistons teams is whether or not those were really "superstar" level players in all aspects. Do you know what I mean? Both teams had to rely on depth to build around Reggie/Isiah/Billups+Wallace in a much more overzealous manner than many teams.
The three-peat Lakers with Shaq and even with Gasol tailed off quickly going to even starters, let alone reserves. But the Pistons and Pacers often had bench players who could start elsewhere (and later many did) so I kinda question if they apply as much.
Reggie made five all-star teams and only three All-NBA, all third, teams. I think that starts to step out of the "all-time superstar" question a bit where this whole ranking Kobe madness exists.
Though it is interesting to think about, it may be just starting to look at how teams are constructed more than anything. Which is always fascinating.
benjipwns
Banned
1999-2000 exists in your world right? The one where Shaq actually committed and destroyed the league on both ends and put up one of the all-time greatest seasons?
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
he only averaged 30 ppg with making a single 3
Yeah, that's why I posed it as a question. When all is said and done though, Reggie finished his career as a Hall-of-Famer with 25,000 points to his resume and some crazy good offensive statistical seasons (90, 91, 94 at a near or at 50-40-90 clip and 62-65 TS%).
The problem with Reggie was, and what doesn't put him in that discussion (like you said) was that he was a one dimensional player. But shit, if he wasn't great at his one dimension.
I would love to see Reggie's shot chart for the 90s.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Also, Rick Barry and Bob Pettit deserve some consideration.
Oh, and Oscar Robertson. My God.
Oh, and Oscar Robertson. My God.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Nah Heat played like shit in the 4th all around. Wade was gone after the 2nd. Bron wasn't even moving like he usually does.
On to something else. Anyone catch what Lebron was saying when he was going to the locker room at the half? He was walking kind of funny and he said "Blah Blah Blah Duncan." It sounded like he said "God dammit that Duncan" or "I got hurt landing on Duncan" Something along those lines.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Sure, why not? And missed field goals isn't that bad to me. Hot potato ball is but still. I saw he brought it within 2.
ryutaro's mama
Member
benjipwns
Banned
Yeah, Reggie is without a doubt an offensive superstar and he would win you games based on that. But he was just shy of that level where you could say "this dude alone makes you a contender" because he didn't rebound, his defense was lacking for a long time, took him a while to learn how to create plays for others, etc.
And as you point out with the TS, and also his ORtgs, he basically had to exist at the highest possible level offensively. If he fell to something like 58% TS (still great!) that would kill a team with him as it's "star" or first option. Ray Allen and Michael Redd were lesser versions of this.
Kobe significantly more points and steals.
Shaq significantly more rebounds and blocks.
TS% is .02 percent different.
Both ALL NBA First Team and ALL NBA First Team Defense. I watched every game of both those seasons. What Kobe did in 2005-2006 was the greatest individual season I've ever seen.
40 points a night was routine for him. 30 was a bad game. It was insane how unstoppable he was.
So did Wade and T-Mac (a couple, actually).
Dude. He stood around all fourth quarter and did nothing. It was insane. You saw the fear in his eyes. The trepidation. It was 2011 Mavs all over again. Please watch the fourth quarter, specifically from about the 7:00 mark until about the 2:00 mark and tell me you don't see that.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Blatant Vagahn bait.
Neither won a chip those years.
LoserBros.
Although, T-Mac could chip this year!
Dion Blaster
Member
I think Dream can be criminally underrated by more casual basketball fans but i'm not sure i'd put him ahead of Kobe. I think he is in that class with Kobe Duncan and Shaq, pretty hard to differentiate for me at least.
benjipwns
Banned
This confirms what I've long suspected you're focused incredibly on (perimeter) scoring. Kobe's usage was beyond historic.
Shaq dictated the league in his season. (Among a few others.) There is no statistical comparison. There is basically no narrative comparison. 67 wins and a title vs 45 wins and quitting in game seven of the first round.
2000 Shaq or 2006 Kobe on the 11-12 Bobcats. Which team wins more games? There is literally only one right answer here. I cannot fathom what the opposite argument even looks like.
2003 McGrady is such an amazing season, it's Jordan with worse defense and like four off the dribble threes a game.
It wasn't even the best perimeter based scoring season in the same decade. T-Mac's '03 season was superior on every level and only 3PPG difference (32 and 35). T-Mac's teammates were worse AND he was only 23 whereas Kobe was 27.
It has been written.
iamshadowlark
Banned
See, I feel this is hyperbolic. Stats don't show that, the impressions in the thread didn't show that outside of the usual trolls(you, relio, etc).
There's a huge difference from being 2011 shook and needing to be a bit more aggressive. I'll make my own call.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I cant compare big men vs wing men. Its like a totally different sport ... Also, some eras benefit those positions greatly over the others.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Does T-Mac chipping this year mean he is equal to Lebron?
benjipwns
Banned
It would mean McGrady has never lost in the Finals. LeBron would have done it three times...
ryutaro's mama
Member
TheKaeptain
Banned
Puts him above Ewing. Which if the Spurs win T-Mac could be the greatest Knick if he gets traded.
You're comparing a guy on a championship caliber team with a guy with a bottom 5 talent roster outside of Kobe.
Kobe went from being a seventh seed, trading for one guy who was an All Star a few years ago (and losing Bynum), to instantly reaching 3 finals. Pau was probably 7th or 8th best Big at the time of the trade. KG, Dirk, Timmy, Bosh, Amare, were all clearly better in February 2008.
There's literally no way you can logically say that 2005-2006 Kobe with a top 8 Big wouldn't be a Finals contender over Dirk's Mavs. So you're comparing two entirely different scenarios.
As for T-Mac. Dude wasn't an elite defender. He wasn't making ALL NBA Defensive squads the way Kobe was in 2005-2006, or 2002-2003 for that matter.
Edit: Kobe's numbers in 2002-2003 - 30 ppg/6.9 rpg/5.9 apg/2.2 spg/0.8 bpg. .55% TS - ALL NBA First Team Defense
McGrady wasn't even having a better season than Kobe in 2002-2003 let alone 2005-2006
benjipwns
Banned
There is still something amazing about Kobe posting the greatest Usage Rate in history while posting his best turnover rate. And his only one under 9.5.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Lol ok dwight
I just noticed your USG% link. Every single person in the Top 4 is a guard and they all got easily handled in the first round playoffs for an early exit.
#6 is the most fascinating. 38 year old Jordan on the Wizards.