TheKaeptain
Banned
More like Dyight
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2013 NBA Finals |OT| The "Big 3" looks to hang another banner... against the Heat
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
More like Dyight
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Lol nice
The Top 10 USG% in the history of the NBA is dominated by guards, wow. Only non-guards are Jermaine O'Neal in '05 and Carmelo in '13 -- and Carmelo isn't a big!
Not a single one of those teams made it past the second round except Philly in 2001.
Not a single one of those teams made it past the second round except Philly in 2001.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Can we take a time out from worshiping one of the greatest of all time Kobe Bean and talk about this stylish dude with an amazing last name?
More Swag than anyone currently playing in the Finals.
More Swag than anyone currently playing in the Finals.
benjipwns
Banned
Sign of a team with few options so somebody just chucks it up, and guards have the ball a lot.
Plus Jermaine O'Neal on the suspended Pacers. (IIRC Tinsley has an insane jump that year in all his stats because everyone else was gone for half the season at least. That quickly evaporates.)
Black Mamba
Member
Don't know why it would be shocking to be guards.
It's hard for a big to have above 30% Usage.
lol @ Shaq 2000 not being the most dominant season individually.
Most of the list is filled with playmakers, not just chuckers.
JO being 5th is weird. Had no idea.
TheKaeptain
Banned
I forgot to mention that not only is his swag incredible he was Drake before drake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQeVAX6KxNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQeVAX6KxNo
benjipwns
Banned
Maybe it was a championship caliber team because it had the best player in the league by far and one who basically couldn't be guarded and was putting together perhaps the best season by anyone not named Michael Jordan in a long time.
You mean more dominant than Kobe? Or most dominant. Period
Black Mamba
Member
Kobe. Or the last 20 years, really.
Nothing will top Wilt's insane 50-26 season, of course.
Just as long as you know that Jordan's seasons from 86-90, especially 87-88 was more dominant.
87-88 35.0/5.5/5.9/3.2/1.6/.604 TS% DPOY, MVP 82 games
88-89 32.5/8.0/8.0/2.9/.8/.614 TS%
Black Mamba
Member
I said 20 years, not 30.
1996 Jordan is the only one in contention.
1996 Jordan is the only one in contention.
Yea I get it.
2000 felt like 2009 to me. We dominated everyone. Blew everyone out. Destroyed everyone. Our starters sat half the fourth quarter seemingly every game.
2005-2006 was just individually insane. A guy scoring 81, outscoring an entire team in 3 quarters, going off for 50 in one season like 3 more times than Shaq has his whole career. Stuff like that, made that season insane.
The team had no other talent. You could triple team him and he'd still score 50.
Shaq's 2000 was like Jordan's 96. Kobe's 2005 was like Jordan's 86
Jack Remington
Banned
LeBron at his absolute peak isn't worthy to be 2000 Shaq's fluffer.
benjipwns
Banned
If we were talking regular season only I might sneak the Admiral into contention since I love the Admiral.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck4KXAydlkE
Especially Young Admiral:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18
Dat 7-1 SF/SG-like play.
2006 isn't "dominant" it's just historic or as you put insane. Kobe basically shot like mad at a level nobody else has. He IS the reason they even managed to crack 40 wins and make the playoffs in the first place. That may be "more valuable" or contributed "more" to a team in that year than Shaq did in 2000.
The difference is that Shaq was more or less imposing his will in 2000. On both ends and it made the Lakers almost unbeatable. When that Shaq came back in the 2001 playoffs with an improved Kobe, they destroyed everyone even more.
You can put that Shaq on basically any team ever and they'll dominate. You can't really import 2006 Kobe into any other situation.
Jack Remington
Banned
As good as you are statistically, benjipwns, I think you're really ignoring context here and comparing apples to oranges.
That Lakers team was quite good. You had Kobe's first great season, Glen Rice (who was better than anyone on the 05-06 Lakers), a still solid Harper at PG, and good bench players in Fox, Horry, Fisher and Shaw. Any one of the players I just listed would be an upgrade over the equivalent player on the 05-06 team.
If you put 2000 Shaq on a team with bottom 5 talent at every position aside from a decent SF, it's very unlikely that he'd be able to impose his will on anything.
Edit: I mean the 2005-06 Lakers are an absolute marvel in just how bad the entire team was from top to bottom aside from Kobe. Lamar Odom is your second best player, and then... Smush Parker? Jesus Christ. Sans Kobe, that team might have struggled to win eight games.
That Lakers team was quite good. You had Kobe's first great season, Glen Rice (who was better than anyone on the 05-06 Lakers), a still solid Harper at PG, and good bench players in Fox, Horry, Fisher and Shaw. Any one of the players I just listed would be an upgrade over the equivalent player on the 05-06 team.
If you put 2000 Shaq on a team with bottom 5 talent at every position aside from a decent SF, it's very unlikely that he'd be able to impose his will on anything.
Edit: I mean the 2005-06 Lakers are an absolute marvel in just how bad the entire team was from top to bottom aside from Kobe. Lamar Odom is your second best player, and then... Smush Parker? Jesus Christ. Sans Kobe, that team might have struggled to win eight games.
Black Mamba
Member
Shaq played 40mpg...
Shaq's 2000 was like Jordan's 96. Kobe's 2005 was like Jordan's 86
That's really the best way to explain it I think.
That's kinda inflated because Phil played him into shape. That was when he dared Shaq to play every minute of every game like Wilt, and played him every minute, or almost every minute for a long stretch.
LA had 67 wins that year, and they weren't nailbiters. LA had the highest point differential in the league that season.
Jack Remington
Banned
Anyway, regarding LeBron in the 4th, he basically had two straight drives to the basket at one point, and that was it. He also got two free throws gifted to him on a ticky-tack foul that I wouldn't have called as a ref. So the box score gives him six points in the period, which could be extrapolated to 24 over the game, but aside from about a minute of game time, he did fuck all. Those two driving layups were nice though.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
...... not going to lie I just loss some respect for Parker after skipping through that....
benjipwns
Banned
That 2000 team was still pretty shaky at times. First season with a new coach, Rice never really integrated into the team, Harper and Green were new and had major roles, etc. The Kings, Blazers and Pacers all gave them pretty decent scares in the playoffs.
They somehow had the number one defense in the league, the same year Shaq really put in any committed effort. I think that says a lot.
You don't think you swap out Kobe for 2000 Shaq on those 2006 Lakers and they don't win more games?
Shaq mustered 1000 minutes in the 2000 playoffs which is pretty amazing. Almost 44 MPG.
Full circle: Duncan in 2003, the last superstar to do a thousand in the playoffs.
Diprosalic
Banned
:'(
Kobe was ALL NBA first team defense that year. That helps why they were so great defensively.
I don't think 2000 Shaq in 2005 is as useful as 2005 Kobe. That team would struggle to score. They don't have anyone other than Lamar who could create his own shot. They didn't have a big problem getting rebounds or playing decent defense, their problem was finding guys who could score.
Shaq has 3 50 point games his whole career. Kobe has 24. On a team like the 05-06 Lakers, Kobe is the best thing they could have had I think.
But this is all just conjecture obviously.
Jack Remington
Banned
They'd win more games, sure, but probably not a title. Although it's a tough comparison, because you'd need to find a SG who sucked as much as Kwame to be the equivalent.
I'm definitely not arguing that Kobe in any season was as valuable as 99-00 Shaq, since I'm pretty sure that version of Shaq was the single most valuable player in NBA history.
I'm definitely not arguing that Kobe in any season was as valuable as 99-00 Shaq, since I'm pretty sure that version of Shaq was the single most valuable player in NBA history.
Jack Remington
Banned
Somehow when looking back at that year, I always forget that the Kings actually forced the Lakers into an elimination game.
The NBA needs to go back to the 5 game first round. That shit was way more exciting.
benjipwns
Banned
We're on the same page. I guess you were disagreeing with the "dictate his will" part. I think a player can do that and be let down by the rest of his team. Like LeBron in 2009. Shaq in 2000 did that and had just enough to back him up.
How many All-Defense First Teams does Kobe have? How many times were the Lakers the best defense in the league?
How about the guy scoring 30ppg with a 58% TS?
Jack Remington
Banned
Shaq's TS% that year was barely higher than his FG%.
Imagine a Shaq who could shoot 70% or even 65% from the line... ah, what could have been.
Imagine a Shaq who could shoot 70% or even 65% from the line... ah, what could have been.
Well yea, obviously lol. But the point is that the specific 05 team would be better served with Kobe's scoring than with Shaq's rebounding and shot blocking.
That team wasn't a great scoring team with bad defense like the Nellie Ball Warriors teams.
Having Shaq and starting someone like Vujacic would be worse than Having Kobe and starting Kwame...but yea, all conjecture.
And that Kobe couldn't win because those kind of performances (Jordan's 86) won't win. Once he got Pau though, he stopped winning scoring titles and started winning NBA titles.
05-06 Kobe would have modified his game in order to contend just like 07-08 Kobe did if he had anyone as good as Frobe as a sidekick.
Edit: In 2000 Kobe was All NBA First Team Defense. And ALL NBA 2nd Team. Give someone that can get All NBA First team defense, and All NBA second team to play alongside 2005-2006 Kobe, and he's in the Finals.
Black Mamba
Member
A Shaq who could shoot 75% FTs could arguably been the GOAT if he wanted to be.
You couldn't do anything to defend Shaq at that percentage.
You are insane.
On a team starting Smush, Luke, Lamar, Vujacic. You can double off Luke and swarm Shaq on every play and have a great chance winning. Tell me that's not true.
It would be like Pacer Fuckball, except like 300 times worse.
benjipwns
Banned
I think that's a little unfair for the other teams, don't you think?
Like if LeBron gets himself near 90%.
It is somewhat interesting (not really) to note that Shaq and Wilt and Dwight and so on have been set back in that way and not overcome it, and vice versa with other players. Like there's some unseen force that sets some kind of limits to the players so you don't have a 7-2 guy who is Larry Bird offensively and Bill Russell defensively.
I dunno, they were 8th offensively. I think putting Shaq in Kobe's place will raise all boats and they wouldn't be worse.Vahagn said:
And with 2000 Shaq as a defensive anchor? With Phil still in charge?
There would be no one who even knew how to pass into the post. No one who can run a pick and roll. No one who can defend on the perimeter. No one who can create his own shot outside of Lamar.
You can literally have 2 guys on Shaq. One guy fronting, One guy behind on every play.
You can full court press and trap and lead to 20 TO's a game. People are really under estimating how bad that team was. It took the insane Usage Rate of Kobe to get where it got. Shaq wouldn't even get the ball nearly as much as Kobe because of all the TO's on the perimeter. All the fronting of the post and inept entry passing of Smush or Vujacic.
You can literally have 2 guys on Shaq. One guy fronting, One guy behind on every play.
You can full court press and trap and lead to 20 TO's a game. People are really under estimating how bad that team was. It took the insane Usage Rate of Kobe to get where it got. Shaq wouldn't even get the ball nearly as much as Kobe because of all the TO's on the perimeter. All the fronting of the post and inept entry passing of Smush or Vujacic.
Pretty late here, but I said wow.
Jack Remington
Banned
You might be right. The West was wide open that year. I remember thinking that if we could just get past the Suns, anything was possible.
Black Mamba
Member
Jack Remington
Banned
On the other hand, wouldn't a starting team of Smush, Sasha, Luke, Lamar, and 2000 Shaq be almost sitcom-esque?
You think. Smush/Sasha/Luke will get you less TO's than Hill/Born Ready/PG?
First year rookie Sasha? Remember how maddening it was watching Farmar and Sasha in the second unit refuse to post-entry to Bynum all those championship years?
Imagine that, but a million times worse, because Farmar in 2010 was a hell of a lot better than Smush in 05-06 and Sasha 2009 >>>>>> Sasha 2005
Jack Remington
Banned
Yeah, I remember saying "Fuck Kwame, start Bynum!" And then I think Kwame went down for a game or two, and we tried starting Bynum, and... we went back to Kwame.
Christ, a guy who can't even catch the ball in the post? That's like having a first baseman who can't catch throws from the shortstop. You will not win games with that shit going on. But somehow he was better than Bynum at that point.
Christ, a guy who can't even catch the ball in the post? That's like having a first baseman who can't catch throws from the shortstop. You will not win games with that shit going on. But somehow he was better than Bynum at that point.
That's true. I'm mainly describing the difference between having Kwame, who almost never has to touch the ball on offense, and having a backcourt of Sasha and Smush, who have to touch it pretty regularly to bring it up court, break traps, run PnR etc.
you could take the ball out to Kobe, or give it to him at the first sight of pressure and know the ball was safe, there probably wouldn't be a TO, you'd get a shot attempt or a play created.
Shaq would have to rely on that scrub ass lineup of ball handlers in a way that Kobe never had to rely on Kwame.
benjipwns
Banned
This is what a Spurs sweep gets you.
benjipwns
Banned
Insecurity that LeBron's already surpassed him and that he's falling behind Barkley, Malone and others. Not to mention someone like Top Three of All Time Tim Duncan.
Jack Remington
Banned
I'd love it if we could actually talk about the game. Like the fact that Tony Parker is legitimately the best PG in the game right now, and has been criminally underrated for years because of the fact that he plays with Duncan and Ginobili and was married to Eva Longoria.
It's kind of funny to see you troll. Like watching Shaq shoot a 3 pointer with his team up 20.
It's kind of funny to see you troll. Like watching Shaq shoot a 3 pointer with his team up 20.
Is Tony though?
CP3 on the Spurs would be just as good. They would use different sets, not so much off ball action, but Pop would figure it out.
Tony on the Clippers? That would be a disaster. That stagnant offense, no one would figure out how great Tony could be off ball, it would just be boring and stagnant.
CP3 on the Spurs would be just as good. They would use different sets, not so much off ball action, but Pop would figure it out.
Tony on the Clippers? That would be a disaster. That stagnant offense, no one would figure out how great Tony could be off ball, it would just be boring and stagnant.
Jack Remington
Banned
Well Popovich >>>>>> Del Negro, so you're probably right.