• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

2K Games pressured The Sixth Axis to remove 3/10 score from NBA 2K18 review

Steroyd

Member
Comment on their review by someone from TheSixthAxis



giphy.gif

"They didn't put pressure on us, they asked us to reconsider the score"

I find it both sad and hilarious how a small website on Metacritic can ruffle the feathers of a multi-million AAA publisher like this.
 
This is why I don't trust most review sites. Giantbomb is one I do and maybe T6A will be one after this.

It's just evidence to how poor gaming journalists have become. Either they're too scared to offend or probably didn't play much of the game to have a clear understanding how bad the game is because of vc. Why I only listen to audience reception or research the game independently.
 

Zafir

Member
It's just evidence to how poor gaming journalists have become. Either they're too scared to offend or probably didn't play much of the game to have a clear understanding how bad the game is because of vc. Why I only listen to audience reception or research the game independently.

I think there's a deeper issue than that though.

The fundamental issue is that gaming journalism is suffering from the problem of where do they find their money. Ad revenue is something that's falling apart, and it's why a lot of sites have moved more towards personality focused content, which people will pay subs for on the site/patreon.

Since people are going to those places for the personality, they can generally say what they want about games as they can make up for being blacklisted in some other way. I know Jim Sterling often just buys his own copies and puts his review out a bit later if he has to.

The bigger journalist companies haven't got that, they're big because historically, they used to be the best place for coverage, news and people go to them for reviews of news games. If they get blacklisted by a big publisher, they've lost a core thing of what people go to their site for and so the higher ups do indeed get scared/pressured.

I think a lot of the gaming journalism sites need to take a hard look at their business model, really. It's only a matter of time that there will be a straw to break the camels back.
 
If the score is removed until 2K has given a statement, I suspect 2K won't give a statement for a while.

Oh, I missed a thing that happened.
Oh, it was nothing.
We're still waiting on the statement

Anyway, with The Sixth Axis being one of the few to properly call out the bullshit of this game, to the point of 2K getting bullish with them, I'd say they've done ok.
Would be a different story if they ended up changing the score or any of the criticism that led to it.
 
Feel like I just dodged a bullet. I enjoyed 2k16 but skipped 17 and planned to buy this game, then I saw this thread.

The VC grind sounds insufferable. Fck it. Look like there ain't any good bb game to play this year.
 
As a previously very active reader of TSA, I hope they stick their guns and don't suddenly give it a notably higher score.

They've had well written and fair reviews for a long time.

TSA
-towers
stand to lose a lot of goodwill here, as a smaller and growing site.
 

faridmon

Member
Gianbomb continues the only Gaming Website I trust. I mean this is just 1 incident that have been reported. Who knows how many reviews have not be published fearing of blacklash.
 
Gianbomb continues the only Gaming Website I trust. I mean this is just 1 incident that have been reported. Who knows how many reviews have not be published fearing of blacklash.

I watch let’s play plays and read gaf impressions. I’ll sometimes watch ACG as well, but other than that, reviews have been useless to me for years.
 

Chris1

Member
So they removed the score and will no doubt give it a higher score because 2K wasn't happy? Loooooooool, that's one review outlet never to pay attention to then. Not that I did before to be honest, but now there's no chance I'll take it seriously if they can't even stick to their original score after the publisher questions it

The only response TSA should have gave 2K should have been "We regret to inform you that we still stand by our opinion, we hope you will reconsider your game choices that we weren't happy with in next years iterations"
 

hbkdx12

Member
So they removed the score and will no doubt give it a higher score because 2K wasn't happy? Loooooooool, that's one review outlet never to pay attention to then. Not that I did before to be honest, but now there's no chance I'll take it seriously if they can't even stick to their original score after the publisher questions it

The only response TSA should have gave 2K should have been "We regret to inform you that we still stand by our opinion, we hope you will reconsider your game choices that we weren't happy with in next years iterations"
the score is staying the same
 

Chris1

Member
the score is staying the same

So what's the point in removing it temporarily? Are they changing the wording of the review to please publishers? If so the point still stands really. Potato Potato, they're still changing the review to please publishers
 

Arsenic13

Member
Oh this brings back memories.

Years ago I chased Mike Patton down online to get a statement whether he would be in The Darkness 2. His reps were nice; it took a couple of months of follow ups to get the confirmation from them. I ran a story (alongside 1-2 other outlets that also heard from his people), and then 2K PR got mad at a journalism.

Multiple reps told me to take down the story, but you can't reverse a confirmation like that so I only updated the story saying they didn't want to confirm yet but obviously the news is still happening.

I got a strongly worded email and was told they'd be calling me to "explain" how this works. They never did but you can bet I never got an email return from them again.
 
Full statement from our side at TSA is live.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2017/09/22/with-regard-to-our-nba-2k18-review/

Yesterday afternoon, we found ourselves embroiled in a minor controversy surrounding one of our reviews, as I decided to adjust our NBA 2K18 review after it had been posted and temporarily remove the score, pending a statement from 2K about our complaints.

In our review, Aran raised the issue of the rate at which you can earn the game’s Virtual Currency from play, how pervasive VC is through the game, and how this pushes you towards the microtransactions in a manner that seriously impacts the game.

Sadly, 2K have not been able to issue us a statement in a timely fashion and so we have now returned the 3/10 score to the bottom of our review, 24 hours after the review was originally posted.

So in retrospect, did I make a mistake in altering our published review? Possibly. Were there good reasons to change the review? Definitely. Most importantly, was this from undue publisher pressure? No.

The conclusion that was originally posted read, “If you’re a series fan you may enjoy what you see, and the score below doesn’t indicate the quality of the core basketball game, but rather protests how utterly invasive the microtransactions have now become.” To categorise our review and its score as a protest vote against 2K was wrong on a number of levels, and it was something I believed I had removed when editing. Evidently I didn’t or didn’t realise that my edits had not been submitted properly while travelling. Either way, it was largely for this reason that 2K’s PR team got in touch after the review was published.

We give plenty of leeway to our reviewers, so if they reason their position well enough and it matches the score, then it will stand as is. In this case, Aran argued well enough for my liking that the balance between microtransaction and what you earn in game was dragging down the potential enjoyment for players. Whether entries have receive a 6/10 or a 9/10 in the past, it’s been a consistent point that he’s addressed in NBA 2K reviews for the last half decade, and it’s exactly this point that I relayed to 2K when they contacted me.

Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a “review in progress”, but I can’t state strongly enough that there was no “pressure” or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the review would not be online, even without a score. However, the word “protest” was still misplaced and needed to be removed, and it was while doing this that the olive branch of a statement surrounding planned changes and adjustments to NBA 2K18 was made. So I made the call to change the score to pending at the same time, get on my flight and hope for something remarkable when I landed.

While 2K are listening and reacting – they lowered the pricing of in game haircuts on Tuesday, for example – they still can’t offer us specific information on or off the record about changes that are incoming. Hopefully they will be revealed soon, because as Aran wrote and as many people across Reddit, Twitter and NeoGAF agree that the demands of virtual currency and the push towards microtransactions in NBA 2K18 are currently too much.

In light of this, and as was always the most likely outcome, the 3/10 score has been restored to our review and the wording remains intact aside from the changes to the conclusion. We’ll look to return to NBA 2K18 down the line to see if and how Visual Concept and 2K rebalance the currency and progression systems and we expect and hope to see significant improvements in this area. Needless to say, they’re now very aware that players aren’t happy, which is perhaps the best thing to come from all of this.

This hasn’t been the most pleasant episode for anyone involved. It’s nice to be the top story on Reddit and NeoGAF, but not for this and not with the maelstrom of speculation that has come with it. With hindsight, a number of things should have been done differently, and for that I sincerely apologise. We’ll learn from these mistakes and do better in future.
 

Steroyd

Member
I think it's fair to at least take the "protest score" out of the text because it undermines the review behind the score to a degree, but if there's anything to take out of it 2K's panties got twisted and apparently lowered the cost of the haircuts so baby steps and all that.
 
Eh, doesn't 2K have their way right now? A lot of people will be buying NBA 2K in the first few weeks after release I imagine. What if they just wanted to have that bad looking 3/10 removed temporarily, while most people are buying their game right now? What good does a 3/10 do, when it's too late for most to even notice it at all on Metacritic?

I would be putting the 3/10 back up, UNTIL they change things, maybe then change it to Pending while analysing these so called promised changes they're making.
 

Diancecht

Member
Eh, doesn't 2K have their way right now? A lot of people will be buying NBA 2K in the first few weeks after release I imagine. What if they just wanted to have that bad looking 3/10 removed temporarily, while most people are buying their game right now? What good does a 3/10 do, when it's too late for most to even notice it at all on Metacritic?

I would be putting the 3/10 back up, UNTIL they change things, maybe then change it to Pending while analysing these so called promised changes they're making.

I don't think changing review scores afterwards is appropriate. I would never change my review or encourage my writers to change theirs. Do you want to talk about the changes? Sure, go ahead an write a follow-op, editorial, opinion piece or something. But a review is a review. That article stays untouched. Video game companies benefit from pre-orders and day-one sales so it is our JOB to say how games function at day-one.

Also, no one has the manpower to update their every review.
 

MBS

Banned
2K did the best thing for their property, i mean the VC situation is heavily debatable, and it is almost an extortion towards the players forcing them to use microtransactions in order to progress, but blatantly ignoring all the other modes and gameplay improvements over the past year and giving it 3/10? This is pure bias and a clear baited score. They did the right thing.
 
2K did the best thing for their property, i mean the VC situation is heavily debatable, and it is almost an extortion towards the players forcing them to use microtransactions in order to progress, but blatantly ignoring all the other modes and gameplay improvements over the past year and giving it 3/10? This is pure bias and a clear baited score. They did the right thing.

Nah. Reviewers should score things however they want, for whatever reason they want. The score is back, 2K did nothing but make themselves and TSA look like fools.
 

NHale

Member
Stop digging TSA

Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a ”review in progress", but I can't state strongly enough that there was no ”pressure" or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the review would not be online, even without a score.

So are TSA admitting that if they blacklisted the site they would remove the review from the site? Is this how it works? I'm getting it wrong or is the text badly written?

Also, a publisher asking to "reconsider" the score or shift it to review in progress is exactly pressure... you can play semantics all you want, but 2K asked you to do something and you complied i.e. moving it to a review in progress.

What a mess. The reviewer OriginalJonty deserved better imho.
 

Smokey

Member
The more exposure 2k gets about this the better. The gameplay of 2k18 phenomenal, it's sad that their greed has gotten to the point that it's the main talking point of the game.

EA and Live have a HUGE opportunity with Live 19.
 
Stop digging TSA



So are TSA admitting that if they blacklisted the site they would remove the review from the site? Is this how it works? I'm getting it wrong or is the text badly written?

Also, a publisher asking to "reconsider" the score or shift it to review in progress is exactly pressure... you can play semantics all you want, but 2K asked you to do something and you complied i.e. moving it to a review in progress.

What a mess. The reviewer OriginalJonty deserved better imho.

I don't see any other way to read that. I'm sure in two days TSA will issue another statement rescinding that remark. Just like they are now saying the review is up unaltered at the same time as they say they removed a line from the review.
 

Fireblend

Banned
Man, what a joke that TSA response is. Under no circumstances is it acceptable to remove a score or review after any sort of communication with the publisher of the game unless there's been some serious neglect by the reviewer and there's outright false information in the review. Even then it probably should be archived.

Doing anything in response to a publisher requesting that the score be reconsidering is 100% giving in to pressure, whether there was a explicit threat or not.

Terrible showing by both 2K and TSA.
 

flkraven

Member
So is this in acceptable reason to review bomb a video game if you think it deserves a poor rating? Does 2K care about user score?
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a “review in progress”, but I can’t state strongly enough that there was no “pressure” or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the review would not be online, even without a score.

This paragraph seems to be nonsense. I’m not sure how they can state there was no “pressure”. Is it even possible to be that naive? What exactly were they reaching out to you for if not to pressure you into changing something they didn’t like?

The whole communication while the site was intended to pressure the site into changing the score because they didn’t like. Publishers should have no say in reviews scores full stop and any attempt to do so should be met with only full dismissal.

I suppose it is possible to be that naive but it strains credulity honestly to say you didn’t realise they were trying to pressure you. There’s no other reason they would contact you at all
 

IvorB

Member
Well there you have it folks: publisher picked up the phone and the score came down. Even though it was eventually restored, this level of collusion should not be happening.
 
Stop digging TSA



So are TSA admitting that if they blacklisted the site they would remove the review from the site? Is this how it works? I'm getting it wrong or is the text badly written?

Also, a publisher asking to "reconsider" the score or shift it to review in progress is exactly pressure... you can play semantics all you want, but 2K asked you to do something and you complied i.e. moving it to a review in progress.

What a mess. The reviewer OriginalJonty deserved better imho.

So asked for clarification from the editor about that paragraph. Poorly worded in his own worda.

Reworded paragraph

"Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a “review in progress”, but I can’t state strongly enough that there was no “pressure” or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the demand would have been for the review to be removed entirely, which we would not have done."

If you have anymore questions, criticisms etc please keep them coming. We're trying to be open as possible about the situation and how much of a mistake was made with messing with the review score.

I can completely understand those who have lost faith in TSA as a site but as is said in the original statement we will be better in future.
 

watdaeff4

Member
Call me up again when your little brother spends $30 in one sitting trying to get a legendary card in Clash Royale.

When I say this, I'm not condoning the practice at all, but legally would it be any different than if your little brother spends $30 in one sitting trying to get a legendary Pokemon card or the Special Edition rookie baseball (or other sports) card?
 

NHale

Member
The more exposure 2k gets about this the better. The gameplay of 2k18 phenomenal, it's said that their greed has gotten to the point that it's the main talking point of the game.

EA and Live have a HUGE opportunity with Live 19.

I'm sure 2K will rethink the VC economy for NBA 2K19. I can already feel all the statements from Ronnie saying they heard from the people and worked to remove all the gates and make it easier and rewarding to upgrade and less grindy. It will be exactly like they did after NBA 2K14 always online and microtransactions to unlock basic functions in single player modes... then NBA 2K15 was announced and one of the flags of the marketing campaign was how they removed the always online and basic functions were unlocked from the start. Then 3 years later we have this.

They will never remove VC from their game, but they will continue to play the rubber band method and continue to pull it to see where people draw the line. They know most reviewers only notices this stuff one year after they exist, so they know they are going to be killed next year if they don't push back on microtransactions, then everyone will forget once again and they will push even more once again.

So asked for clarification from the editor about that paragraph. Poorly worded in his own worda.

Reworded paragraph

"Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a ”review in progress", but I can't state strongly enough that there was no ”pressure" or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the demand would have been for the review to be removed entirely, which we would not have done."

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a lot more sense. I've not lost faith in your site because I know this is what 2K Games wanted all along, but there are definite lessons to learned from this.
 
I dunno. Reading that statement it seems like they missed sonething in editing that was intended to be removed and took it out after it was raised by the publisher. There is obviously a transparency issue in play here but you still have several bodies of text explaining the point and the same score.

I'm pretty satisfied with that result. If they say they werent threatened with blacklisting then I dont see why they would have to lie about it. In terms of the review not going up had they been blacklisted I imagine its something to do with NDA they sign for this stuff. Can't post a review with content you recieved before a blacklist or something. Clarification there would be good.

I dunno, feel like people are freaking out a lil too much. So far I see a review trashing a game for MT and they pulled the review while having discussions with the publisher. Not that controversial
.
 

Ahasverus

Member
When I say this, I'm not condoning the practice at all, but legally would it be any different than if your little brother spends $30 in one sitting trying to get a legendary Pokemon card or the Special Edition rookie baseball (or other sports) card?
That's the biggest argument I've read, and the counter argument is that in videogames case, there is not a limitation on the physical existance of a good, which means people are paying for artificial probabilities, putting the odds on the supplier side. Not to mention the constant "reminding" some of these games do, acting as a psychological luring action closer to the Casino model.

I do think it's a court decision to be had. But damn, it's getting to our kids, and that pisses me off.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
So asked for clarification from the editor about that paragraph. Poorly worded in his own worda.

Reworded paragraph

"Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a “review in progress”, but I can’t state strongly enough that there was no “pressure” or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the demand would have been for the review to be removed entirely, which we would not have done."

If you have anymore questions, criticisms etc please keep them coming. We're trying to be open as possible about the situation and how much of a mistake was made with messing with the review score.

I can completely understand those who have lost faith in TSA as a site but as is said in the original statement we will be better in future.

I really appreciate your honesty and posts here but I don’t understand how this has happened. No, they didn’t have to ask you to take it down to pressure you. Asking you to change or remove the score is “pressure”. Absolutely, 100% it is pressure and highly inappropriate. Truly I don’t understand how the editor didn’t understand this.

They tried to pressure you into removing coverage they didn’t like and they (shortly) succeeded. There is absolutely no other reason for them to contact you other than to pressure you into changing or removing coverage they didn’t like.

Again, I thank you for your posts and honesty but I’m having a hard time understanding how any editor could not see what 2K were doing here and give into their highly inappropriate demands

Edit: typing on mobile is hard
 

Fireblend

Banned
So asked for clarification from the editor about that paragraph. Poorly worded in his own worda.

Reworded paragraph

"Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a “review in progress”, but I can’t state strongly enough that there was no “pressure” or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the demand would have been for the review to be removed entirely, which we would not have done."

If you have anymore questions, criticisms etc please keep them coming. We're trying to be open as possible about the situation and how much of a mistake was made with messing with the review score.

I can completely understand those who have lost faith in TSA as a site but as is said in the original statement we will be better in future.
Do you agree with your editor that there was no pressure, even though even reaching out to the site to express that they didn't like the score is in itself pressure? There doesn't have to be a threat for it to count, IMO. They clearly approached the site with the objective of raising or removing the score and the site complied, even if for a little bit. It's even a bit disappointing the site complied without any need for threats :p You agree this is worrying, right? And that the paragraph you quoted thus makes no sense?
 
I think people are reading more into pressure than the dude meant. I think what they meant was they were not threatened with repurcussions if they didn't change their review. Not that the PR guy didn't try to get them to alter their score. Obviously he did. But the PR dude certainly knows if it gets out that they blacklisted a site for a bad review that's gonna hurt them. And TSA know that redoing the review craters reputation.

At least that's how it reads to me.
 

NHale

Member
Bravo to the writer for speaking their mind on the issues this game faces and assigning what they considered a fair score. But the editor made a huge mistake here, and the story just absolutely does not make sense. What was the point of removing the score if you always intended to put it back the way it was? Simple answer: you didn’t. You wanted to play damage control with the publisher and hoped that no one would notice.

Regardless of whether or not you want to admit that 2K “pressured” you into changing something, as someone who has worked for several gaming publications I can tell you that there is always unspoken pressure, and yes, blacklisting does happen. But no one is generally going to come to you and say “sorry, you gave our game a low score, we’re not going to send you copies anymore.” They don’t come right out and say it, it just so happens that it’s suddenly harder to get in touch with PR people and you’re not receiving their games promptly, or at all. So the idea that “there’s no publisher pressure because no one said or even implied that we’d be blacklisted” is horseshit.

All of this is beside the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the word “protests” as it stood in the original review. It’s simply a word, one that has many meanings and uses. An editor who doesn’t understand that is a poor editor. And an editor who won’t stand behind their writers is a disgrace.

Of course. It's naive to believe otherwise. 2K Games would never send a message saying "You're blacklisted because of X" in fear of the message getting out there...

They will just make sure their RDR2 preview event invitation is not sent in time and the review copy get's lost in the mail. Pure coincidences clearly.

But the litmus test to the blackmail is going to be if TSA gets to preview RDR2 or to review RDR2 as the same time as other outlets. If their review is not out when embargo ends, then you know why...
 

Fireblend

Banned
I think people are reading more into pressure than the dude meant. I think what they meant was they were not threatened with repurcussions if they didn't change their review. Not that the PR guy didn't try to get them to alter their score. Obviously he did. But the PR dude certainly knows if it gets out that they blacklisted a site for a bad review that's gonna hurt them. And TSA know that redoing the review craters reputation.

At least that's how it reads to me.
In that case the editor is seriously misreading what was wrong about what he did, and totally not learning anything from this.
 

Smokey

Member
I'm sure 2K will rethink the VC economy for NBA 2K19. I can already feel all the statements from Ronnie saying they heard from the people and worked to remove all the gates and make it easier and rewarding to upgrade and less grindy. It will be exactly like they did after NBA 2K14 always online and microtransactions to unlock basic functions in single player modes... then NBA 2K15 was announced and one of the flags of the marketing campaign was how they removed the always online and basic functions were unlocked from the start. Then 3 years later we have this.

They will never remove VC from their game, but they will continue to play the rubber band method and continue to pull it to see where people draw the line. They know most reviewers only notices this stuff one year after they exist, so they know they are going to be killed next year if they don't push back on microtransactions, then everyone will forget once again and they will push even more once again.

I don't think it's a realistic expectation of VC being removed from their titles. It makes them too much money. They did however push the line too far this time in their attempt to see how far they can go. While game reviewers don't give the time of day to sports titles, I think the exposure of this incident will stay with them and bring more coverage with 2k19.
 
Top Bottom