It saddened me to read that in Corren earlier this morning. While I don't live in Linköping nowadays it's still my hometown and I have lots of family there.
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3rd night of Stockholm riots
- Thread starter phaze
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It saddened me to read that in Corren earlier this morning. While I don't live in Linköping nowadays it's still my hometown and I have lots of family there.
archnemesis
Member
There is wide support for giving illegal immigrants (or "residents without legal permission to stay" if you prefer) the same benefits as citizens and the police can't snag people from hospitals, schools, or other public institutions. They have also been criticized for doing random controls in the street. In practice this means that it's mostly criminals that get deported plus refugees caught in transit.
SiegfriedFM
Member
I lived there for a year, I went to visit a friend there a few years ago. Quite sad.
Last night at 9 PM, Husby square, people giving out free hot dogs, barbecuing and everyone having a pretty good time from the looks of it. Wonder why there are no cameras there?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151916351689045&set=vb.580294044&type=2&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151916351689045&set=vb.580294044&type=2&theater
Because that's not interesting. People in general love drama and news like these do not sell well. Trust me, I have alot of experience about the media portrayal of "ghettos" since I have lived in Rosengård all my life.
Thinking about this issue, I founded a very interesting study regarding inmigration and integration carried out by the Elcano Institute (prestigious foreign policy bureau) and the University of Princenton. Its findings are surprising, to say the least:
-No relationship between economic level and integration, with the most prosperous minority (Chinese) being also the most dettached from society. This coupled with these riots in Sweden, of all places, makes me think that the whole inequality discourse doesn't hold up as well as one could think.
- Surprisingly, sharing a common mother tonge doesn't have as big of an effect on integration as one might think.
- Direct correlation between level of disfranchisement VS self imposed segregation (aka: I want to live with "our people"). Surprise, suprise, ghettos fuck up integration, "mantaining proud roots and identity in our communities" retardation nonwithstanding.
Only 10% of our children inmigrants have ever felt discriminated against. A whooping 50% of our second gen inmigrants feels "at home". While our inmigration policy is lax as fuck, we do have a heavy "please do return" type of reverse inmigration program going for inmigrants that wants to return to their countries of origin. Curiously enough, our public debate about inmigration and race relationships is characterized by one thing: its inexistance. Despite ocasional outbursts of violence and racism (hello soccer) It never become "a thing" in our politics, sans from a slew of fringe movements.
As weird as it sounds, my take on that is that an inmigrant integrates into the host society, first and foremost based on said inmigrant's will to integrate and the society's will to accept him. In short: are you here because you want it or because you don't have any anywhere else to go? This seems to be like an issue that it is tossed far more into individual, personal choices rather than overwhelming societal preassures.
My take on that: if you do not wish to stay in one country, then get the fuck out of it, as simple as that. Make the state to facilitate said exit if necessary. As we say here, "Enemigo que huye, puente de plata", "build a silver bridge to the enemy that it is running away from you".
As flattering as such a thing is, it seems like a sum of factors more complex than that, even if I am pretty sure that this has something to do with it. The greatest empires of Earth may have been built on militarism and warfare, but the ones that stayed trought time did it so by also being able to tolerate and convive with very different ethnic and religious groups. See also: Rome, Persia, the Ottoman or the British Empire VS insular and closed homogeneous lands such as, say, Burma or North Korea.
-No relationship between economic level and integration, with the most prosperous minority (Chinese) being also the most dettached from society. This coupled with these riots in Sweden, of all places, makes me think that the whole inequality discourse doesn't hold up as well as one could think.
- Surprisingly, sharing a common mother tonge doesn't have as big of an effect on integration as one might think.
- Direct correlation between level of disfranchisement VS self imposed segregation (aka: I want to live with "our people"). Surprise, suprise, ghettos fuck up integration, "mantaining proud roots and identity in our communities" retardation nonwithstanding.
Only 10% of our children inmigrants have ever felt discriminated against. A whooping 50% of our second gen inmigrants feels "at home". While our inmigration policy is lax as fuck, we do have a heavy "please do return" type of reverse inmigration program going for inmigrants that wants to return to their countries of origin. Curiously enough, our public debate about inmigration and race relationships is characterized by one thing: its inexistance. Despite ocasional outbursts of violence and racism (hello soccer) It never become "a thing" in our politics, sans from a slew of fringe movements.
As weird as it sounds, my take on that is that an inmigrant integrates into the host society, first and foremost based on said inmigrant's will to integrate and the society's will to accept him. In short: are you here because you want it or because you don't have any anywhere else to go? This seems to be like an issue that it is tossed far more into individual, personal choices rather than overwhelming societal preassures.
My take on that: if you do not wish to stay in one country, then get the fuck out of it, as simple as that. Make the state to facilitate said exit if necessary. As we say here, "Enemigo que huye, puente de plata", "build a silver bridge to the enemy that it is running away from you".
As flattering as such a thing is, it seems like a sum of factors more complex than that, even if I am pretty sure that this has something to do with it. The greatest empires of Earth may have been built on militarism and warfare, but the ones that stayed trought time did it so by also being able to tolerate and convive with very different ethnic and religious groups. See also: Rome, Persia, the Ottoman or the British Empire VS insular and closed homogeneous lands such as, say, Burma or North Korea.
Would love to hear more about this from someone who actually knows what they're talking about (as opposed to 99,9% of people in this thread, including myself).
For those not aware, Rosengård is the prototypical example of a so-called "immigrant ghetto" in Sweden, with news stories about it being overwhelmingly negative.
Unemployment is almost always not actively chosen.
btw. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/23/swedish-riots-stockholm
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
We had a nice bbq here in my back yard too.
No news reporters where seen at all.
must be racialism.
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
Untill we have an equal world, where everyone is on the same terms.
The only acceptable immigration is the one they have in australia and canada. Ie one based on the needs of the host nations.
If you have skills that are needed here, and you want to be part of our community. You are welcome.
Anything else is incompatible with a normal western welfare state. Its madness.
Forsete
Member
Expressen was there, I saw it on their live feed. They were talking to residents.
Made the news in Finland. "Put down the rock and have a sausage".
archnemesis
Member
They do, however, have access to free education and that would make them more attractive on the job market.
archnemesis
Member
So did Dagens Nyheter. I think it was covered by most of the larger sites.
Such wonderful people (Zakaria and his friends).
I grew up in one of the bad ghettos in southern Stockholm, so it truly warms my heart to see initiatives such as the one linked to above. It pains me to see that people only have negative associations towards the ghettos/suburbs when there are wonderful people and things there, just like any other part of this great country.
Trust me when I say that the majority of level-headed ghetto residents are pissed off at these moron kids who torch cars and destroy shops. From my perspective, the two major problems we have in Sweden are:
(1) The lack of discussion that can be had without one part screaming "racism" or the other part screaming "fucking immigrants." There's a clear cowardice overall.
(2) The lack of people saying "no" to what is transpiring. Too many people don't have the guts to show that it's not okay to do like this, since it has the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve; you're playing straight into the hands of the racist/anti-immigrant forces by doing stupid shit like this. As with the previous point, this happens due to an overall cowardice and a clear lack of knowledge among the parents in these areas; they have no damn clue what their kids are up to.
Trust me when I say that the majority of level-headed ghetto residents are pissed off at these moron kids who torch cars and destroy shops. From my perspective, the two major problems we have in Sweden are:
(1) The lack of discussion that can be had without one part screaming "racism" or the other part screaming "fucking immigrants." There's a clear cowardice overall.
(2) The lack of people saying "no" to what is transpiring. Too many people don't have the guts to show that it's not okay to do like this, since it has the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve; you're playing straight into the hands of the racist/anti-immigrant forces by doing stupid shit like this. As with the previous point, this happens due to an overall cowardice and a clear lack of knowledge among the parents in these areas; they have no damn clue what their kids are up to.
let's ignore that, because they should have well payed jobs without any education so that their feeling don't get hurt.
If you choose not to educate yourself, then be prepared to take so shitty jobs. at least start from there. Most of these people choose not to, because they are too cool for some jobs. I live here I am an immigrant I know what I am talking about. IF YOU want to find a job, and you try hard, you can do it.
Besides, a country like Sweden and Finland provides you with the chance to experiment. I'll use myself as an example.
In my 20's I tried some work as a freelance translator, worked as a cashier, studied various subjects and eventually decided to really go for it and passed the entrance examination for law school. Now I'm 30 years old, going to probably graduate next year but there's no reason to be angry or anything.
I feel happy for people who have found their own thing when they were 20 years old and are making a lot of cash now. I'm behind but I'll probably hit the private sector again or go for court training (judge and all that).
Should I riot, because I didn't find my place early? No, the society doesn't owe me a fucking thing. People don't realize how good it is here. You don't have to pay over 10,000 euros for a semester and one can change his life completely at any point. You can be 45 years old, without any education, and can just hit the university and be involved.
I just don't understand what these youngsters are going for. You don't need to earn a lot of money in a country like Sweden to be respected, you don't even need to have a big house or a family. What kind of material wealth are you possibly lacking in a country like Sweden anyway? F.e even if I'll never get a decent paying job, I'll still have my masters degree and all the safety nets that these countries provide us.
If it's all about "I need money and stuff naow, if not then I'll hit the streets and burn cars" - attitude then fuck off please, because there is no excuse.
Only very few countries (usually new world countries) do jus solis. Like in the US if you are an illegal immigrant and have kids in the US, those kids become automatic US citizens. This doesn't happen in most countries.
For Sweden:
So you wouldn't agree this shows lack of integration ?
It was a riot by a never fully integrated ethnic minority where more than 50 people died.
Also a lot of people involved in Europe riots were born is Sweden/France so they're not strictly speaking immigrants. I don't know how you can not see the similarities.
You were the one who asked for riots in the last 30 years.
There were others as well.It is not my point to paint US as some hell for immigrants/minorities but to simply point out they've their own set of problems as well.
Anyhow it seems the riots are starting to peter out.
http://www.thelocal.se/48140/20130526/
Mainly because European countries were (or are), up to a certain point, more homogeneous. The US was built by inmigrants. The same goes for Australia, Canada or New Zealand. They were built by inmigrants, who kept going to those "new" countries and integrated and became a part of it.
An example:
When someone gets the US citizenship, he is now for everyone "an American". So will be his or her children, which probably will be even more "Americanized". But it appears to me that this does not happen in Europe. When someone gets the citizenship, let's say Spanish (or Portuguese or Dutch or whatever) citizenship, they're still somehow foreign. The local society sees them as (for example) "Somali with Spanish citizenship" or "Moroccan with Spanish citizenship". Nobody seems to call them "Spaniard". It is mainly because Europe is made by more or less homogeneous ethnic populations, where being a Portuguese means being an ethnic Portuguese, and the rest is something else.
We, as Europeans, need to change this mentality, and be able to integrate everyone easily, otherwise these all things will be a problem, and a huge one.
THIS, fucking THIS. Swedish people say someone is a "Somali", a "Turk", and "Iraqi" etc, even if they've lived here for 30 years and speak the language perfectly. That attitude rubs of on immigrants who have a harder time feeling like they're part of society. I've seen quite a few people in this thread who obviously think like that. "Swedish? They're not Swedish. Fucking bullshit media conspiracy."
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
You know, I noticed this when I visited Europe and it actually offended me. I was in Amsterdam sitting outside a cafe at night and a bunch of Spaniards came up to me and asked for a light. I gave him my lighter and then the guy asked me where I was from. I said "New York" and he started laughing and turned to all his friends and was like "He says he's from New York" while gesturing at my face. I then added that my parents were from Asia and then he said "See, you're from Asia."
If my lungs weren't filled with marijuana I might have knocked his ass into the canals. Shit made me angry. If that's representative of European attitudes then it's no wonder there's problems.
lol! half the hipsters in Stockholm would've been arrested if that was true...
'
That just sounds like a bunch of assholes. What he's saying is true but it doesn't usually extend to being rude and assholish about it.
Well, the thing is that I'm brown skinned. I'm are often confused as an Indian when aboard.
You'll be fine. Why did those people think you should shave?
I'm Finnish, so I'm not sure how this works with our neighbours, but here the brown skinned people are usually clean shaven and it's the natives sporting big beards.
That's how it is for most countries though. If you can't pass as a native, you'll never truly be one of them. Besides let's say you are some dude of Moroccan descent living in Spain. Will you truly ever feel Spanish? Considering that Spain's only relation with Moroccans involved fighting against them and grabbing cities from their coast? How can such as person relate to the country's history and it's people? Or what if you are some African dude living in Poland. It's easy to see why this mentality exists.
But even in the States you see this too. I remember seeing posts here from Asian Americans saying how sometimes people would ask them where they are from only to be unsatisfied when the answer ended up being an American state/city. And American history is still largely equal to the history of WASPs. Black American history is seen as something kinda distinct imo.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
How is it for the mixed? Lets say your father is a Spaniard and your mother moroccan, you're born in spain?
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
It's not the same thing that I experienced in Europe. I've had people in America ask me where I was from, to which I always say New York. If they mean something else they just correct themselves and say something like "where are your ancestors from" or "what ethnicity are you" without disputing that I am a New Yorker. It was only in Europe where people actually seemed to challenge the idea that I was an American just because of how I looked.
archnemesis
Member
That's not going to be a problem. There are plenty of bearded, brown skinned atheists in Sweden. No one is going to mistake you for a rioting Muslim unless you're holding a Molotov cocktail and shouting in Arabic.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
wow, not gonna lie, i always thought that Sweden was just mainly full of white Swedish.
That video was like 90% either people of African or Middle eastern background.
didn't think there was that much penetration
it is. If you go to Europe, unless you're a white Person, Europeans won't consider you Americans (except for the UK and Ireland). They'll just consider you wherever your ancestry is from. Kinda weird
Kiraly
Member
Hurray for the welfare state.
archnemesis
Member
15% of the population was born outside of Sweden and in the poorer suburbs most of the natives have long since moved out. As soon as someone lands a decent paying job they tend to migrate to a nicer part of the city.
So apparently the police officer in question is now under suspicion of committing manslaughter? That's what the Finnish media is reporting, he has been given a legal assistant. I suppose authorities have deemed it as a necessary step and hopefully there will be a thorough inquiry.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
It would be the same if Europe was a single country. A spaniard is different from a Swede etc. All the european countries have their own ethnic groups
US doesn't have that, people there come from all over the world.
edit: lol I just repeated what you said....my bad, pretty tired
archnemesis
Member
It's the lesser degree of manslaughter (maybe comparable to involuntary manslaughter?). A literal translation would be "causing of other's death". The maximum sentence is 2 years of prison and it could also just result in fines.
How usual is this in Sweden? In Finland police get reprimanded on shooting someone very easily.
archnemesis
Member
There is always a thorough investigation whenever someone gets killed by the police (or if the police just fires a gun). In this case there was some conflicting reports of where the suspect died and that calls the rest of the police report into question.
Edit: Here is an article about it in English: http://www.thelocal.se/48196/20130528/
Edit: Here is an article about it in English: http://www.thelocal.se/48196/20130528/
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
So you wouldn't agree this shows lack of integration ?
It was a riot by a never fully integrated ethnic minority where more than 50 people died.
Also a lot of people involved in Europe riots were born is Sweden/France so they're not strictly speaking immigrants. I don't know how you can not see the similarities.
You were the one who asked for riots in the last 30 years.
It is not my point to paint US as some hell for immigrants/minorities but to simply point out they've their own set of problems as well.
Anyhow it seems the riots are starting to peter out.
http://www.thelocal.se/48140/20130526/
no...it's not about integration. it was aobut a korean shopkeeper shooting a black girl in the back. it was about korean owners buying properties in what blacks felt were their neighborhood. sorta like, those korean immigrants are taking our jobs.
the riots owuld be something like white swedes rioting over imigrants taking over their downtown in shop owning
No puukko is actually a specific type of knife and there are standards you need to full to be able to call your products puukko.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
That's probably because you were an American in Europe. If you were say someone of Packistani heritage but were born and lived in germany and were asked where you were from and you said you were from germany, then you would likely have a similar conversation/response.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Explain this to me because it's not making sense when I read it.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Sorry I was switching nationalities from Russia to germany as the numbers of ethnically Packistani Russians is low and missed one. What is was trying to say is that you were ethnically Packistani but were born and raised in germany (for example) and stated germany as where you were from when visiting the US, you might expect to meet the same level of incredulity.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
No you wouldn't, because I'm not talking about incredulity. People might be a bit surprised, but they would accept it when you explain. In Europe even after explaining it people refused to accept that I was American.
That's not true at all for "Europe" as a whole, don't lump us all into one group. There is no such thing as a typical European viewpoint. Where I come from in Europe, someone from USA is seen as an American regardless of how they look.
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