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[plagiarize]

In a committed, closed relationship, people shouldn't be sleeping with other people without consent of their partner. The genders don't matter.

So the guy who cheated on his wife with Zoe Quinn has received anything approaching the same level of hate she got for cheating on her sometime boyfriend?

No? Well colour you surprised.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Oh my god. I've been avoiding actually getting caught up on what this entire "scandal" was, until now. Holy shit. I'm so glad that NeoGAF exists and greys out the names of these embarrassing little people. Gawd, I've never cringed so hard in my life.

How empty can your life be to get so motivated toward the "cause" of harassing somebody like this? I feel so sad for these empty, lame people.

 

[Widge]

not,just the proof the loves to lie,and she admits that on the logs...and i believe these are real logs

I know you can't answer this but I have heard these logs mentioned. Is the only thing she says is that she likes to lie? If so, is the entire case against her "she might be lying about stuff because she said that generally".

A bit tenuous if so.

 

[QuantumZebra]

It's also none of your or anyone else's business what she does in her personal life, and most definitely does not justify anything that people have done so far.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[marrec]

Why does a mob form and decide to do shit like this seemingly so often?

Because in less regulated places on the net there is a festering hatred for anything progressive and that hatred gets focused whenever it seems there's any opportunity to tear anything down.

 

[The Technomancer]

Why does a mob form and decide to do shit like this seemingly so often?

I mean...its so easy to stereotype them as immature, well kids basically. I suspect a lot of them are high-school kids with very little basis for how real relationships or the real world works. They certainly don't know how any professional industry works if they think that there's literally never friendship between the press and the industry

 

[QuantumZebra]

Is anyone here saying 'Zoe Quinn is an upstanding paragon of morality'? Some people seem to think we're saying that.

We're not.

Here are three facts.

1. Zoe Quinn's relationship with her boyfriend went very sour.
2. He accused her of all sorts of stuff online.
3. Criminal abuse of Zoe Quinn was provoked by the accusations.

I don't care if she cheated on her boyfriend. It has no bearing on journalistic or artistic integrity in the gaming sphere. The giant wall of hate her ex opened the floodgates on (and I love how on his epic blog that he wrote after provoking all this, he says 'but don't harass her guys!') is the issue and it is indicative of a bigger problem.

The thing about slut shaming, isn't that someone did or didn't act like a slut, it's that you are trying to harm that person for it, and to create a misogynistic ideal where girls won't be promiscuous or cheat on their boyfriends ever.

We need to do something about the internet attack dogs that her ex was able to unleash. He is culpable for unleashing them.

'But she actually cheated on him!' is distraction. Her immorality doesn't deserve the massive reaction it has caused. The people horrified at what has been done to Zoe genuinely don't care if she did something immoral or not. So you are wasting your breath.

If the genders were reversed, you have to be a willfully ignorant to think the internet would have gone after the cheat with equal venom.

A+ post

 

[Mononoke]

So the guy who cheated on his wife with Zoe Quinn has received anything approaching the same level of hate she got for cheating on her sometime boyfriend?

No? Well colour you surprised.

Isn't that how it usually plays out? Usually things that are said to not be motivated by misogyny, but then end up focusing 100% on ONE person (usually the woman). At least, that is something I've noticed in a lot of these things.

 

[Mael]

your wish is a mod's command lol

not_so_special
Banned
(Today, 11:29 AM)

You could say he was not so special.

So the guy who cheated on his wife with Zoe Quinn has received anything approaching the same level of hate she got for cheating on her sometime boyfriend?

No? Well colour you surprised.

You don't understand, he was tricked and since his penis was doing the thinking it's totally ok for him.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I've tried to stay clear of this topic, but from what I understood it was basically dirty laundry put in public, causing misogynistic lowlifes and egomaniac white knights to engage in battle, turning most of the discussion into a us vs. them trench war all the while managing to cast a horrible and undeserved image on both feminists and gamers (which aren't even mutually exclusive to begin with)

At least that's my impression of #gamergate from a cursory glance.

 

[outunderthestars]

Oh my god. I've been avoiding actually getting caught up on what this entire "scandal" was, until now. Holy shit. I'm so glad that NeoGAF exists and greys out the names of these embarrassing little people. Gawd, I've never cringed so hard in my life.

I just want to second this point. This is the only internet forum that I frequent, and it is because of the moderation policies.

 

[Mononoke]

Oh my god. I've been avoiding actually getting caught up on what this entire "scandal" was, until now. Holy shit. I'm so glad that NeoGAF exists and greys out the names of these embarrassing little people. Gawd, I've never cringed so hard in my life.

How empty can your life be to get so motivated toward the "cause" of harassing somebody like this? I feel so sad for these empty, lame people.

Initially, GAF wanted to avoid discussion of it (I actually agreed with that decision). But I guess they got heavy push back from some folks, so they decided to allow a megathread for people to air their grievances or something. I dunno. Imagine what kind of week that was for the staff on here.

 

[Azure Dream]

So the guy who cheated on his wife with Zoe Quinn has received anything approaching the same level of hate she got for cheating on her sometime boyfriend?

No? Well colour you surprised.

I'm not saying this is okay?

It's also none of your or anyone else's business what she does in her personal life, and most definitely does not justify anything that people have done so far.

And why do you think I'm saying it does justify it? That was the point I made above, that now if you dislike Zoey Quinn, you're rolled into the "Quinnspiracy" camp and are trying to validate all of the terrible things happening to her. I'm not.

And it is not my business, but through the actions of her ex-boyfriend, and her subsequent confirmation, we became aware of it. It not being my business does not change that it happened. I can view that action and let it alter my opinion of her. I can combine that information, even if I shouldn't have it, with some of the public statements she's made and the conflicts other people described having with her before this incident, and form a negative opinion of her. It doesn't mean I'm excusing the assholes out there, or that I believe the same things they do.

 

[SparkPeople]

Because in less regulated places on the net there is a festering hatred for anything progressive and that hatred gets focused whenever it seems there's any opportunity to tear anything down.

I disagree, this isn't progressive, this is attention whoring. "The internet" is not made up of gamers, and I doubt that the vast majority of users have even heard of her.

Progressive is an actual campaign, project, or event being hated. When I see the shit TFYC is trying to do and the responses they receive, that's progressive hatred.

This is some random woman who's upset she got called out publicly on her lies to her significant other.

Does this automatically mean I support harassing her, and making her life hell? Obviously not. I don't care about her, and I don't care about her work. I have complete apathy towards her. I am getting annoyed at her being jammed, or jamming herself, into this drama storm. If she really wanted to deal with it, and remove it from the public eye, she could have done this a million ways possible.

But instead she revels in it, and is upset when her past comments are brought out to point out the hypocrisy of her statements.

 

[besada]

As always, if you're interested in discussing this particular issue -- the article by Quinn -- you're welcome to do so. If you want to discuss the larger issue of #gamergate, we already have a thread for that, so take that conversation to the appropriate thread.

If you just want to post how much you're tired of hearing about this, please refrain from posting at all.

If you have questions or concerns about moderation, feel free to PM a moderator.

 

[The Technomancer]

I disagree, this isn't progressive, this is attention whoring. "The internet" is not made up of gamers, and I doubt that the vast majority of users have even heard of her.

Progressive is an actual campaign, project, or event being hated. When I see the shit TFYC is trying to do and the responses they receive, that's progressive hatred.

This is some random woman who's upset she got called out publicly on her lies to her significant other.

Does this automatically mean I support harassing her, and making her life hell? Obviously not. I don't care about her, and I don't care about her work. I have complete apathy towards her. I am getting annoyed at her being jammed, or jamming herself, into this drama storm. If she really wanted to deal with it, and remove it from the public eye, she could have done this a million ways possible.

But instead she revels in it, and is upset when her past comments are brought out to point out the hypocrisy of her statements.

Uhm I think she's upset that people are threatening her and her family

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Since he's gone and you're here, I'll ask you. Just how do I get myself on that list of 'SJW enemies who must not be trusted'? I want on.

Me too

 

[marrec]

But instead she revels in it, and is upset when her past comments are brought out to point out the hypocrisy of her statements.

Why are you so mad about it though? Like, are you jealous she's getting contacted to write articles for Cracked or do interviews for Vice? Even if your pathetic accusation is true, how does it make any difference in your day to day life?

 

[DragonSworne]

Edit - I'll take my question about the attacks on Quinn to the aggregate thread.

 

[plagiarize]

I've tried to stay clear of this topic, but from what I understood it was basically dirty laundry put in public, causing misogynistic lowlifes and egomaniac white knights to engage in battle, turning most of the discussion into a us vs. them trench war all the while managing to cast a horrible and undeserved image on both feminists and gamers (which aren't even mutually exclusive to begin with)

At least that's my impression of #gamergate from a cursory glance.

Yes. Egomaniac white knights like Tim Schafer and Wil Wheaton. I love how taking a vocal and harsh stance on misogyny makes me an egomaniac.

Gamergate is a very odd kettle of fish, and as besada recommends, there is a thread specifically on that if you want to dive into it. I haven't touched it myself.

 

[Mael]

Since he's gone and you're here, I'll ask you. Just how do I get myself on that list of 'SJW enemies who must not be trusted'? I want on. And I want to encourage everyone else to get on that list too, because I want to see it grow and grow and grow and grow to the point it's completely unmanageable.

Don't worry, you're on gaf.
Last I checked you're automatically in that list.

Edit - I'll take my question about the attacks on Quinn to the aggregate thread.

Holy crap I caught the edit!

 

[Orayn]

Uhm I think she's upset that people are threatening her and her family

Gotta keep up with the terminology, breh. If you're an actual victim and you speak out about what's happening to you instead of shutting up, that's "playing the victim" and "reveling in attention."

 

[Corpekata]

I haven't been following, but how are the attacks on Zoe Quinn any different or more harmful than the attacks other celeberity devs get on the internet or other celebrities in general?

Going to wager Kojima or Jaffe haven't had their parents called to be told their son is a whore.

 

[plagiarize]

I haven't been following, but how are the attacks on Zoe Quinn any different or more harmful than the attacks other celeberity devs get on the internet or other celebrities in general?

They are different in that they are completely unrelated. If you want me to explain how a relatively unknown (prior to this) game developer is different from someone on the cover of OK magazine, I will. But I don't think you need me to.

 

[Mononoke]

As always, if you're interested in discussing this particular issue -- the article by Quinn -- you're welcome to do so. If you want to discuss the larger issue of #gamergate, we already have a thread for that, so take that conversation to the appropriate thread.

If you just want to post how much you're tired of hearing about this, please refrain from posting at all.

If you have questions or concerns about moderation, feel free to PM a moderator.

My apologies. If I could remove my posts, I would. I'll just be more mindful next time.

Anyways, getting back to the article. I think clearly we have an issue with the internet, and how people use it to vent their issues. I think this always been a platform for that sort of thing. But IMO it's getting worse, in that it's becoming easier for people to find other people like them that are also angry (seeing those MRA type forums, really scares me). And so when you have this kind of, group mentality for releasing that anger, it can be a very dangerous thing.

I said this in one my edited posts, but what is the solution? Is it better education? Do we need to educate people that it's not healthy to vent and use technology as that outlet? Do we need more government/oversight & regulation? As it stands now, it feels like the free web is basically the Wild West. I dunno. But it really feels like in this day and age, you do NOT want to be a public figure that is a heavy user on the internet.

 

[canedaddy]

Because in less regulated places on the net there is a festering hatred for anything progressive and that hatred gets focused whenever it seems there's any opportunity to tear anything down.

It's not just "progressives," conservatives (especially conservative women) get the same treatment. There are unhinged hateful sickos in all segments of society.

 

[Mael]

My apologies. If I could remove my posts, I would. I'll just be more mindful next time.

Anyways, getting back to the article. I think clearly we have an issue with the internet, and how people use it to vent their issues. I think this always been a platform for that sort of thing. But IMO it's getting worse, in that it's becoming easier for people to find other people like them that are also angry (seeing those MRA type forums, really scares me). And so when you have this kind of, group mentality for releasing that anger, it can be a very dangerous thing.

I said this in one my edited posts, but what is the solution? Is it better education? Do we need to educate people that it's not healthy to vent and use technology as that outlet? Do we need more government/oversight & regulation? As it stands now, it feels like the free web is basically the Wild West. I dunno. But it really feels like in this day and age, you do NOT want to be a public figure that is a heavy user on the internet.

Azula, I think that the good thing about the internet is that it actually doesn't forget.
I guess if you're stupid enough to vent hate with your real name like some shit do on twitter/facebook you get whatever's coming your way later in life.

Ideally yes. That's always the approach that I'll take personally, and I'll always believe in its theoretical effectiveness, even if some individuals have to get written off as a lost cause.

As for government regulation...you can't really do anything to pre-emptively shut down this kind of stuff, I just think that there needs to be better pursuit and persecution of online harassment just like there is real life (or mail, or whatever) harassment.

Nothing like real life repercussion on what people do online for harassment to just melt away.
Hit them where it'll hurt them most.

 

[The Technomancer]

I said this in one my edited posts, but what is the solution? Is it better education? Do we need to educate people that it's not healthy to vent and use technology as that outlet? Do we need more government/oversight & regulation? As it stands now, it feels like the free web is basically the Wild West. I dunno. But it really feels like in this day and age, you do NOT want to be a public figure that is a heavy user on the internet.

Ideally yes. That's always the approach that I'll take personally, and I'll always believe in its theoretical effectiveness, even if some individuals have to get written off as a lost cause.

As for government regulation...you can't really do anything to pre-emptively shut down this kind of stuff, I just think that there needs to be better pursuit and persecution of online harassment just like there is real life (or mail, or whatever) harassment.

 

[plagiarize]

My apologies. If I could remove my posts, I would. I'll just be more mindful next time.

Anyways, getting back to the article. I think clearly we have an issue with the internet, and how people use it to vent their issues. I think this always been a platform for that sort of thing. But IMO it's getting worse, in that it's becoming easier for people to find other people like them that are also angry (seeing those MRA type forums, really scares me). And so when you have this kind of, group mentality for releasing that anger, it can be a very dangerous thing.

I said this in one my edited posts, but what is the solution? Is it better education? Do we need to educate people that it's not healthy to vent and use technology as that outlet? Do we need more government/oversight & regulation? As it stands now, it feels like the free web is basically the Wild West. I dunno. But it really feels like in this day and age, you do NOT want to be a public figure that is a heavy user on the internet.

It's going to take time I think, but the way you discourage certain behaviours in a community, is to make it well known that they are undesirable within that community. I can't make that happen on communities I'm not in, but the advice I generally give is call out bigotry when you see it and where appropriate (as in, it is implicitly against the rules of the service) report it.

More kids growing up today are confused by racism, sexism and homophobia than previous generations, because racism, sexism and homophobia are not flaunted as openly as they used to be. That helps the next generation know that such stuff is 'wrong' and while a slow process, it's one that seems to be proven historically, and an approach I think can be translated to even the anonymity of the internet.

 

[pants]

I'm sorry for laughing at someone's pain, but I clicked through to that blog on the previous page and scrolled through to the images, this made me LOL

Haha, dose headphones tho

 

[DragonSworne]

They are different in that they are completely unrelated. If you want me to explain how a relatively unknown (prior to this) game developer is different from someone on the cover of OK magazine, I will. But I don't think you need me to.

So the issue is someone thrusted her to the spotlight? Well, what's done is done and it's now time for her to take full advantage of the situation. She's going to be attacked no matter what now.

I say this article was the right move. Getting her story out to more mainstream websites will provide more opportunities for success to her.

 

[Mononoke]

Ideally yes. That's always the approach that I'll take personally, and I'll always believe in its theoretical effectiveness, even if some individuals have to get written off as a lost cause.

As for government regulation...you can't really do anything to pre-emptively shut down this kind of stuff, I just think that there needs to be better pursuit and persecution of online harassment just like there is real life (or mail, or whatever) harassment.

I can agree with this. I just feel there need to be more studies done on the impact technology is having on how we deal with issues and how it impacts a persons growing psyche ( although there probably are studies being done, it takes time). Because as it stands now, I do feel like we need better education about how we use the internet.

 

[The Technomancer]

I mean, on the one hand I'd like to think that any person can be persuaded, shown the negative consequences, have their empathy expanded, whatever. But on the other hand I absolutely understand that in that long drawn out process their hostile opinions towards certain groups, be they women, gays, whatever, can create an uncomfortable or even alienating environment, which is why GAFs moderation policy makes sense to me. When it comes to honest hate and misogyny its more important that women feel like GAF is a place where that will be cracked down on than it is to try and engage the haters in long dialogues to see if they can be brought around

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Going back to the article, I was shocked to learn there's a whole subreddit dedicated to harassing her (oh sorry, I meant dedicated to exposing the truth! Duh). I'm surprised this type of thing is allowed there... I thought that would be crossing the line. But these people still claim the reddit moderators are trying to "censor" them and are corrupt? Wow.

 

[Rayis]

I still don't understand what this whole gamergate controversy is, It's so convoluted and hard to follow. so her crime was cheating on her boyfriend? wow, crucify her, she's the only person who has committed such a horrible crime! how can she live with herself!

 

[Brakke]

It's always fun to see the outsider approach to this nonsense. Chuckling at "do you realize that if what they're saying is true, then this is still the most pointless fucking bullshit anyone has ever forced us to read?", because yeah, the "cause" sure is pointless bullshit.

I'd hope all these outsiders rolling their eyes would show some of these "gamers" that their perspective is broke, but I suppose the only way the harassment campaign started in the first place is their perspective is broke beyond repair.

 

[plagiarize]

I can agree with this. I just feel there need to be more studies done on the impact technology is having on how we deal with issues and how it impacts a persons growing psyche. Because as it stands now, I do feel like we need better education about how we use the internet.

If the behavior I see on Facebook is anything to read into, anonymity can only be one small part of the problem. I think it's got more in common with road rage. It's an interaction with the rest of the world through a device that we come to think of as an extension of ourselves, while in an environment that feels a lot like our own 'territory' for want of a better word.

But I think we will adapt and figure it out. That's what we do. Those arguing for the status quo are basically yelling at the continental plates to stop drifting. Those of us arguing for progress... well, we're just part of that process I think.

 

[CitizenCope]

Never heard of her.

Yeah I kept seeing her name in posts and thread titles but never clicked. By reading the op I think I'll keep it this way.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It's "the Internet" with her now.

Thanks assholes, you killed her soul.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

Great article, and nice to see her expanded (and pretty funny) views on this entire shit-tornado.

Those comments on Cracked though. Truly awful.

 

[outunderthestars]

If the behavior I see on Facebook is anything to read into, anonymity can only be one small part of the problem. I think it's got more in common with road rage. It's an interaction with the rest of the world through a device that we come to think of as an extension of ourselves, while in an environment that feels a lot like our own 'territory' for want of a better word.

But I think we will adapt and figure it out. That's what we do. Those arguing for the status quo are basically yelling at the continental plates to stop drifting. Those of us arguing for progress... well, we're just part of that process I think.

I love that analogy .

 

[gdt]

This topic really brings the crazies out eh?

lol at A Voice For Men seriously being posted on the first page.

 

[Ol No Bones]

Who is Zoe Quinn? Did I miss something?

 

[SparkPeople]

Why are you so mad about it though? Like, are you jealous she's getting contacted to write articles for Cracked or do interviews for Vice? Even if your pathetic accusation is true, how does it make any difference in your day to day life?

I don't read cracked or vice, nor do I care about those publications. It does speak poorly about her constant wish to "distance herself from the internet drama.'

That said, I'm annoyed that the influence of this debate, and it's constant maintenance and evolution have leaked into other websites I like to read. The Verge, Polygon (they actually have good long reads), twitter, and recently it's dominated a lot of feminist discussions in my field. It's an internet drama of people acting unprofessionally that's been twisted into a gender issue.

It's annoying because there is no end goal in sight and there is a lot of tribute to 'having a dialogue', which is false and disingenuous in itself. One side is reactionary with no agenda, and the other stands to profit from continuing the internet drama machine.

Uhm I think she's upset that people are threatening her and her family

And that's wrong. But instead of taking action against it, it's been nothing but tumblr posts and twitter. There is an individual directly responsible behind airing out her dirty laundry for all to see. It's hurt her professionally and personally. Instead of going directly after that person, we've gotten a mixed message of "it's none of your business, leave me alone" and "look at this people plotting against me!"

If you're not addressing the root of the problem head on, then you're just prolonging it. (The root of the problem is her personal information and chat logs being distributed for the public to see, not the internet backlash)

 

[Son of Cervantes]

As I've previously stated, she seems to be an awful person in her personal life (which has nothing to do with gaming on the first place), but that in no way justifies what's been done to her friends and family. The harassment, the doxxing, the nude pics...I am surprised by her courage. I know I would not be so brave as to stay in the gaming industry of I were the target of so much relentless, unjustified abuse.

Hopefully she and others like her in the industry will help promote change. If nothing else, what's happened to her has laid bare the ugly, misogynistic undercurrent that plagues our hobby.

 

[The Technomancer]

Who is Zoe Quinn? Did I miss something?

Indie dev. Made a freeware game about depression that kicked off round one of the harassment and death threats and general hate. That was a while back. Then just a few weeks ago some ex posts and spreads a rant that leads to accusations that she cheated and was generally a shitty partner, which kicked off round two.

 

[Entryhazard]

*facepalm*

Seriously? That's the generic insult you're going with?

If you look at the actual issue you see she is not a good person who has done a lot of crappy things.

this

while I'm against the whole harassment thing and some communities brought in the worst of themselves, I find that the fact that some wrongdoing were exposed is a good thing in all this mess.

I don't think that Quinn is a "true" feminist but rather a woman that labels as misogynist anything she don't like regardless it's relevant or not. Like depression quest is a mediocre game at best but she kept saying that it got initially slammed because she was a woman.

Also the whole thing about what she considers rape means that she is willing to betray the ideals she holds up if this is useful to her. And then she fears that being exposed as a liar is going to tarnish her reputation as feminist heroine in gaming.

Also it's funny how seh says ALLEGED sex life when she even admitted to on some occasions.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I still don't understand what this whole gamergate controversy is, It's so convoluted and hard to follow. so her crime was cheating on her boyfriend? wow, crucify her, she's the only person who has committed such a horrible crime! how can she live with herself!

Gamers as a community sometimes act as children, and we're not far off from the gossip that fills the Hollywood scene.

The article was enlightening about how searing the internet microscope can be when the one on watching is the big red anonymous mob.

 

[Mael]

Gamers as a community sometimes act as children, and we're not far off from the gossip that fills the Hollywood scene.

The article was enlightening about how searing the internet microscope can be when the one on watching is the big red anonymous mob.

At least there's no CP rumours going around...yet.
Then again...

this

while I'm against the whole harassment thing and some communities brought in the worst of themselves, I find that the fact that some wrongdoing were exposed is a good thing in all this mess.

I don't think that Quinn is a "true" feminist but rather a woman that labels as misogynist anything she don't like regardless it's relevant or not. Like depression quest is a mediocre game at best but she kept saying that it got initially slammed because she was a woman.

Also the whole thing about what she considers rape means that she is willing to betray the ideals she holds up if this is useful to her. And then she fears that being exposed as a liar is going to tarnish her reputation as feminist heroine in gaming.

Also it's funny how seh says ALLEGED sex life when she even admitted to on some occasions.

So you're saying that she got the justice she deserved?
Since surely all bad people should be punished, right?
She at least deserve something for passing as a TRUE™ feminist?

 

[James Woods]

Pretty sure the internet is comprised of more than gamers and at least 85% have never heard of her. Melodramatic much? I had to google her.