Support NeoGAF

[Refreshment.01]

The specific waggle as an input motion sucked, yes. But Wii's pointer controls were pretty awesome for certain types of games. Like third person shooters. Resident Evil 4 was a *total* blast on the Wii because of the controls. Way, way better than using a gamepad. It's a shame this wasn't taken advantage of more as we've all missed out on what could have been a great advancement in shooter controls.

In regards to waggle, it's all down to implementation. i think that you as very analytical and critical person in regards to videogames are letting your judgement to be clouded.

Every controller ever made had different ergonomical and technological limitations and developers are supposed to work with those in mind. In the specific case of the Wii Remote, we had a large group of developers making super quick, low budget and minimal R&D projects. Of course the uses of the controller won't amount to much with this design approach.

For example, performing the final blows in Red Steel 2 felt far more involving with the "waggle" of the Wii Remote than say with the "waggle" of a thumbstick or the "mashing" of a button. The execution mechanic felt more involving because the inputs matched the on screen action better and the user put a "bit of himslef" into performing them.

The point is the Wii Remotehasn't benefitted with the decades long maturing process that dual analog had. But instead of understanding this, many people just conform themselves to express that: "waggle sucks period".

yep, pretty much. they made the ergonomics of the gamepad work best if you have your index fingers on the triggers. the reason it works so well with Splatoon is because your sub weapon is on the right shoulder button while shooting is on the right trigger. since you'll never be doing those things at the same time it's feasible to use your index finger for both.

Yet the Gamepad is designed for the middle fingers to rest on ZL and ZR ergonomically speaking that is.

Splatton should let players maps the buttons as the user wants. There's no reason not to have jump on a shoulder button.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

In regards to waggle, it's all down to implementation. i think that you as very analytical and critical person in regards to videogames are letting your judgement to be clouded.

Every controller ever made had different ergonomical and technological limitations and developers are supposed to work with those in mind. In the specific case of the Wii Remote, we had a large group of developers making super quick, low budget and minimal R&D projects. Of course the uses of the controller won't amount to much with this design approach.

For example, performing the final blows in Red Steel 2 felt far more involving with the "waggle" of the Wii Remote than say with the "waggle" of a thumbstick or the "mashing" of a button. The execution mechanic felt more involving because the inputs matched the on screen action better and the user put a "bit of himslef" into performing them.

The point is the Wii Remotehasn't benefitted with the decades long maturing process that dual analog had. But instead of understanding this, many people just conform themselves to express that: "waggle sucks period".

I'd agree with this. It depends on the circumstance and implementation. Even when waggle is substituting for what would be a direction on the analogue stick, like Zack and Wiki, that was all about the visceral feel to solving the puzzles and messing with the game's trinkets.

I think this blog post sums up another example well:

"Wii Sports is a fantastic example of quality programming. Everyone bought a Wii assuming that Wii Sports marked the beginning of what one could do with motion controls. But motion controls require a ton of programming expertise. A button, after all, is binary. A 1 or 0. A motion control has tons of inputs. But as we can see from the Wii Era, there was little interest from non-Nintendo companies in quality programming."

---

Waggle aside, I think one of the problems surrounding the stigma behind motion controls is that many people seem to put them all in a box and classify, or describe them all as one thing, with a particular image in their head (usually of waggle) or a particular cherry picked scenario. It's a shame, as, as many in this thread have pointed out, all three types of core motion control (free-form "waggle", pointer, gyroscopic) can work well.

There was a good Edge magazine interview with the creative director of Red Steel 2 on the challenges of designing good "free form/waggle" motion controls, I'll try and dig it out.

Edit: Here it is: VandenBerghe: Motion Control Must Become Standard

 

[Rebel Leader]

"I'm using tilt controls!"

Spoiler

Sorry..

For real this time though

 

[phanphare]

Yet the Gamepad is designed for the middle fingers to rest on ZL and ZR ergonomically speaking that is.

Splatton should let players maps the buttons as the user wants. There's no reason not to have jump on a shoulder button.

I'd disagree with that, the gamepad becomes unwieldy with only two fingers per hand below the lip on the back

also I think the jump button works best as a face button because with the gyro-assisted aiming your thumb isn't glued to the left stick. also like I said before the gamepad works best with index fingers on the triggers. having jump on a shoulder button would require a stretch. also it'd have to be the right shoulder button which wouldn't let you jump while in squid form, which is crucial.

 

[Acerac]

Thanks to this thread I just went and tried out the splat towers mode for the first time. Won 6 consecutive matches and ranked up. Ninja jump seems like a must have for this map; it's amazing for catching enemies offguard when they think they are holding the tower easy after a combat. It's odd not using the golden crutch, but gotta have that range. Beyond that, the .96 gal deco was fun subweapons.

I can't imagine playing this game without these controls. Honestly, if they didn't have them I'd prolly not even bother touching it. Best shooter controls since KB+M.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I'd disagree with that, the gamepad becomes unwieldy with only two fingers per hand below the lip on the back

also I think the jump button works best as a face button because with the gyro-assisted aiming your thumb isn't glued to the left stick. also like I said before the gamepad works best with index fingers on the triggers. having jump on a shoulder button would require a stretch. also it'd have to be the right shoulder button which wouldn't let you jump while in squid form, which is crucial.

Hold on a second, here. im poiting out a design fact. The Wii U Gamepad, your preferences aside, is designed with the middle finger in mind for ZL and ZR and your index finger for R and L. The layout is designed for those two pair of fingers to rest naturally on them and your thumbs on the sticks. That's what im telling you.

On the other hand you are telling me, that design decision didn't translate in the most optimal user comfort. And that's arespectable opinion... but is not what im talking about.

Your explanation regarding the Splatoon button lay out is throwing me off a bit. Let's see: You speak of an "strecth". Why is that? If you had the option to map out the buttons as you want what would the problem be?

Fire: ZR
Sub Weapon: R
Squid: ZL
Jump: L

If im too far off with the actions, my apologies since it has been long time since i played. But what exactly is the impossibility with the above setup. i think i could go a bit extra and map camera recenter to one of the thumb clicks...maybe. You could retain y still.

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

I would say a very high percentage because it's super fast to find a match.

I just lost interest in the game myself due to the slow trickle of features and content. I'm wondering if others did too.

 

[Z..]

I'd disagree with that, the gamepad becomes unwieldy with only two fingers per hand below the lip on the back

also I think the jump button works best as a face button because with the gyro-assisted aiming your thumb isn't glued to the left stick. also like I said before the gamepad works best with index fingers on the triggers. having jump on a shoulder button would require a stretch. also it'd have to be the right shoulder button which wouldn't let you jump while in squid form, which is crucial.

Jump buttons does work best as a face button, but as someone who's using normal controls I'd love to have the ability to have it mapped to R so I could both jump and shoot (which is kind of a big deal if you're playing ranked with a brush or roller as their efficiency is ridiculously higher if you're jumping around, though thankfully, I CAN use gyro for these weapons well, it's just a pain switching back and forth whenever I want to use other weapons) and jump while in squid mode. Grenades would transfer to L, of course. Basically, giving you the options to choose your own controls is NEVER a bad thing and should always be mandatory, to be honest. I assume it would require minimal work, no?

Best shooter controls since KB+M.

Hmmm... close enough, but no.

KB+M = pointer (wiimote) > gyro > twin stick.

 

[timetokill]

Kids use dual analog, squids use gyro

It is known

 

[phanphare]

Hold on a second, here. im poiting out a design fact. The Wii U Gamepad, your preferences aside, is designed with the middle finger in mind for ZL and ZR and your index finger for R and L. The layout is designed for those two pair of fingers to rest naturally on them and your thumbs on the sticks. That's what im telling you.

On the other hand you are telling me, that design decision didn't translate in the most optimal user comfort. And that's arespectable opinion... but is not what im talking about.

Your explanation regarding the Splatoon button lay out is throwing me off a bit. Let's see: You speak of an "strecth". Why is that? If you had the option to map out the buttons as you want what would the problem be?

Fire: ZR
Sub Weapon: R
Squid: ZL
Jump: L

If im too far off with the actions, my apologies since it has been long time since i played. But what exactly is the impossibility with the above setup. i think i could go a bit extra and map camera recenter to one of the thumb clicks...maybe. You could retain y still.

I get what you're saying but yeah the way they designed the gamepad isn't actually comfortable. index on the triggers is the way to go, for a variety of reasons. the main one being that it's easier to hold the weight of the gamepad with three fingers per hand under the lip on the back as opposed to just two. the other reason being that the face buttons are extremely hard to hit comfortably if you're middle on the trigger, index on the shoulder. you've gotta scrunch your thumb in to get them.

with that in mind, the control set up wouldn't work because a lot of times you are jumping while you're in squid form and couldn't push both buttons at the same time.

Jump buttons does work best as a face button, but as someone who's using normal controls I'd love to have the ability to have it mapped to R so I could both jump and shoot (which is kind of a big deal if you're playing ranked with a brush or roller as their efficiency is ridiculously higher if you're jumping around, though thankfully, I CAN use gyro for these weapons well, it's just a pain switching back and forth whenever I want to use other weapons) and jump while in squid mode. Grenades would transfer to L, of course. Basically, giving you the options to choose your own controls is NEVER a bad thing and should always be mandatory, to be honest. I assume it would require minimal work, no?

that's actually a fair point because without the gyro on your right thumb is pretty much glued to the stick

as an aside, man, keep at the gyro. it's so glorious when it finally registers. like, it adds a whole other layer of interaction to the game and is one of the main reasons I'm so hooked. it feels good and it's just so engaging. "immersion" is not a word I thought I would ever use to describe Splatoon before playing it but the gyro aiming really does add a level of immersion. sorry to keep telling you the same shit, I bet you're frustrated that it hasn't been working for you yet. all I can say is in my opinion I think it's worth the time investment and then some.

 

[AniHawk]

yep. i adapted to motion controls as well. can't really do without the assistance on aim anymore.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I get what you're saying but yeah the way they designed the gamepad isn't actually comfortable. index on the triggers is the way to go, for a variety of reasons. the main one being that it's easier to hold the weight of the gamepad with three fingers per hand under the lip on the back as opposed to just two. the other reason being that the face buttons are extremely hard to hit comfortably if you're middle on the trigger, index on the shoulder. you've gotta scrunch your thumb in to get them.

with that in mind, the control set up wouldn't work because a lot of times you are jumping while you're in squid form and couldn't push both buttons at the same time.

It wouldn't work if you refuse to use your middle fingers as you state. But just like with motion controls is a matter of adapting. At the least the option should be there to customize the button setup.

The Wii U Gamepad is the first controller from any of the big console manufacturers that i have used where the effort to design it with middle finger use in mind was made. It is very important for games that use the touch screen as a trackpad, i think this was one of the main reasons it's designed with middle finger use in mind.

yep. i adapted to motion controls as well. can't really do without the assistance on aim anymore.

This is what i find amazing:

The user is doing the assistance not the computer. It's really cool. i would rather have the Dual Stick controls with zero sticky/auto aim and let the gyro assist replace them for something that is actually more similar to the act of pointing.

It feels really liberating to me.

 

[phanphare]

It wouldn't work if you refuse to use your middle fingers as you state. But just like with motion controls is a matter of adapting. At the least the option should be there to customize the button setup.

The Wii U Gamepad is the first controller from any of the big console manufacturers that i have used where the effort to design it with middle finger use in mind was made. It is very important for games that use the touch screen as a trackpad, i think this was one of the main reasons it's designed with middle finger use in mind.

well yeah, that's kind of the point ;p

they didn't successfully execute that design

 

[Acerac]

I just lost interest in the game myself due to the slow trickle of features and content. I'm wondering if others did too.

The content trickle causes me to come back after taking breaks. New modes/weapons? Awesome!

 

[Z..]

that's actually a fair point because without the gyro on your right thumb is pretty much glued to the stick

as an aside, man, keep at the gyro. it's so glorious when it finally registers. like, it adds a whole other layer of interaction to the game and is one of the main reasons I'm so hooked. it feels good and it's just so engaging. "immersion" is not a word I thought I would ever use to describe Splatoon before playing it but the gyro aiming really does add a level of immersion. sorry to keep telling you the same shit, I bet you're frustrated that it hasn't been working for you yet. all I can say is in my opinion I think it's worth the time investment and then some.

I still use it whenever I play ranked as like I said I like being able to jump and since I just blast, brush or roll, it's all I use. I can use it fine with these, I just can't aim precisely with it, for some reason. =/

There's a night and day difference in using it or not when using regular weapons. I'm gradually getting quite decent with the .52, but as soon as I switch to gyro, it all goes down the drain. Honestly, after all these hours, I don't see it happening.

However, I am still using it regularly everytime I brush or roll (If I'm blasting I'll just go with whichever setup was in place before as it's irrelevant) so it's not like I've given up on it entirely, it's my main mode whenever I'm playing seriously, which accounts for ~50% of my playtime. I REALLY REALLY want it to click, and hope it eventually happens. It just seems kind of hopeless after all this time. I mean, I've been level 20 for 3 days now and have completed the singleplayer, with around 65% of my time with the game being spent with gyro on and it still hasn't clicked, I don't think it's gonna happen.

The only reason I see that I can't get used to it is MAYBE the fact that I can't use the Y axis with the right stick. I really really hope that's it, as it would mean I won't forever be shit with gyro controls.

 

[rjc571]

Still a big step down from IR aiming. Even with the gyro assist you still have to waggle the joystick around to control your aim, which always has been and always will be a shit control scheme. It's slower, less intuitive and more cumbersome than the beautiful IR controls which graced many a game last gen on the Wii.

 

[phanphare]

I still use it whenever I play ranked as like I said I like being able to jump and since I just blast, brush or roll, it's all I use. I can use it fine with these, I just can't aim precisely with it, for some reason. =/

There's a night and day difference in using it or not when using regular weapons. I'm gradually getting quite decent with the .52, but as soon as I switch to gyro, it all goes down the drain. Honestly, after all these hours, I don't see it happening.

However, I am still using it regularly everytime I brush or roll (If I'm blasting I'll just go with whichever setup was in place before as it's irrelevant) so it's not like I've given up on it entirely, it's my main mode whenever I'm playing seriously, which accounts for ~50% of my playtime. I REALLY REALLY want it to click, and hope it eventually happens. It just seems kind of hopeless after all this time. I mean, I've been level 20 for 3 days now and have completed the singleplayer, with around 65% of my time with the game being spent with gyro on and it still hasn't clicked, I don't think it's gonna happen.

The only reason I see that I can't get used to it is MAYBE the fact that I can't use the Y axis with the right stick. I really really hope that's it, as it would mean I won't forever be shit with gyro controls.

I believe in you!

 

[23qwerty]

Enormously surprising to be honest.

 

[MrGameBoy]

As much as I like the combination of dual analog + gyro, I'd still prefer playing with a Wii Remote Plus + Nunchuk, pointer-style ala Metroid Prime 3's advanced control settings, with MotionPlus kicking in whenever the Wii Remote is outside of the sensor bar's range (still allowing for offscreen cursor movement and turning) and the GamePad being kept as the map display like with Pikmin 3.

I also think it should be possible to allow similar gyro controls with Wii Remote Plus, where the side buttons on the dpad can be used for turning, as the GamePad's right stick should be used for broader turning movements, so the analog functionality of said stick becomes mostly useless.

They literally can't. The game relies heavily on the GamePad's touch screen. Maybe for the Battle Dojo they can, but not online.

It could still work using this method: hold the + Button to "translate" the pointer to the Wii U GamePad's screen, then select a target using either the IR pointer or Nunchuk's Control Stick, and finally hit the squid button (Z Button on the Nunchuk) to super jump. What I mean by "translate" is that the Wii Remote (Plus) is still pointing at the sensor bar, with the cursor location on the touch screen being similar to where it would be located on the TV display, based on proportions.

 

[Dicer]

Should be 100%, tis the proper way to play.

 

[krizzx]

This makes Star Fox look a lot more appealing.

 

[Maengun1]

Motion control aiming works great in this game, very subtle. I generally am not huge on motion but I can't play any other way

 

[Wikzo]

Can't play with gyro controls. I just can't. Neither could the three friends I showed the game; in the tutorial, they just wanted to turn gyro off. It doesn't seem to have a big impact for me in online multiplayer, though, since I tend to do rather well.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

I've started using motion controls for the horizontal axis too, which works a treat. Lets me up the sensitivity of the right stick so I can turn quicker.

 

[Zing]

The next time you are frustrated with your teammates, just envision them playing wihout gyro and thinking to themselves, "I am doing rather well!"

Playing without gyro in this game would be like playing with keyboard only on the PC. No matter how good you think you are, you can do better with gyro.

 

[timetokill]

The next time you are frustrated with your teammates, just envision them playing wihout gyro and thinking to themselves, "I am doing rather well!"

Playing without gyro in this game would be like playing with keyboard only on the PC. No matter how good you think you are, you can do better with gyro.

hahahahaha

spot on

 

[LegendofLex]

A good tip for people struggling with gyro:

Look at it as a kind of triple-analog system.

Left stick: Movement
Right stick: Camera swivel
Gyro: Aiming

I think a lot of people try to use the right stick for aiming even when using gyro and honestly it's an exercise in futility.

Hold on a second, here. im poiting out a design fact. The Wii U Gamepad, your preferences aside, is designed with the middle finger in mind for ZL and ZR and your index finger for R and L. The layout is designed for those two pair of fingers to rest naturally on them and your thumbs on the sticks. That's what im telling you.

Since buying my Wii U, I have never seen any human being hold the GamePad this way. Nor have I myself ever held mine this way. My index finger rests much more naturally on the ZL/ZR button than even on the L and R button simply because I don't have to stretch my hand as much and I get a much better grip on the GamePad with much less effort.

So even if it was a design goal, it certainly isn't something that's come "naturally" to anyone I've seen.

 

[Mike Double U]

I've really gotten used to the gyro controls. They're really the right way to play the game for me because I'm much more precise.

My only gripe is aiming left and right with them. I really wish you could tilt the controller left and right vertically rather then rotating it to the left and right. I still find myself wanting to do tilt naturally instead of rotating at times.

 

[Unai]

Hold on a second, here. im poiting out a design fact. The Wii U Gamepad, your preferences aside, is designed with the middle finger in mind for ZL and ZR and your index finger for R and L. The layout is designed for those two pair of fingers to rest naturally on them and your thumbs on the sticks. That's what im telling you.

On the other hand you are telling me, that design decision didn't translate in the most optimal user comfort. And that's arespectable opinion... but is not what im talking about.

Your explanation regarding the Splatoon button lay out is throwing me off a bit. Let's see: You speak of an "strecth". Why is that? If you had the option to map out the buttons as you want what would the problem be?

Fire: ZR
Sub Weapon: R
Squid: ZL
Jump: L

If im too far off with the actions, my apologies since it has been long time since i played. But what exactly is the impossibility with the above setup. i think i could go a bit extra and map camera recenter to one of the thumb clicks...maybe. You could retain y still.

If that was the design goal, they have failed miserably.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

I havent played this since I got so sick of the map rotations and the complete lack of maps...considering going back when the patch hits, but I still wont use the gyro controls. I was topping the scoreboard using analog no problem

 

[jariw]

I havent played this since I got so sick of the map rotations and the complete lack of maps...considering going back when the patch hits, but I still wont use the gyro controls. I was topping the scoreboard using analog no problem

Based on how Turf War matchmaking works, this doesn't mean anything at all. In Turf War, you're matched with players of your own playing style. Everyone have been top scorer on random Turf Wars.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Hm, I wonder if the upcoming update will tweak both control setups. It's not mentioned in the release notes though.