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A Dance with Dragons |OT| - Read the rules or Melisandre casts magic missile
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
elrechazado
Banned
I'm confused now.Greyface said:
elrechazado
Banned
Even more confused ....are you reading the book or not? Are you trying to avoid sex generally? Dany sex specifically? Why don't you be specific about what you want, rather than this cryptic silliness?Greyface said:
Sirpopopop
Member
Famassu said:
Don't click on any of my spoiler tags if you haven't the entire portion of ADWD.
If there were two trilogies, there would be some sort of gap like Martin originally planned. This gap would have the purpose of separating the events of the first "trilogy" from the second "trilogy," or creating separate themes for both trilogies. This is something that authors such as Scott Bakker have done with their "trilogies."
By opting for a seamless narrative, Martin ditched the potential for two trilogies. A seamless narrative with one continuing plot, and central themes. Therefore, we are dealing with one series.
At this stage of the game - Book 5 of a 7 book series, the last thing you want to do is continue piling on new scenarios. Aren't The Others supposed to be a big threat? Isn't Dany supposed to continue Westoros?
Well, we should be well in the thick of those things now. Unfortunately, at the end of ADWD, we've yet to reach there. There is no way Martin can resolve both of those issues in just two books, if he wants to credibly believe that The Others are a credible threat, and that Dany's arrival is going to be a big event. A lot of build up for just a few chapters of realization makes for mediocrity. Therefore, I think it's fair to say that the series will extend out past 7 books. As for the events you just listed - yes, I will say that those events effectively tally up to "nothing." You know what would be something? Actually finishing up Mereen in one book.
As for the War of the Five Kings - that was dealt with in both ACOK, and ASOS. All of the major players were dealt with in one fashion or another. Yet, by scrapping the five year gap, Martin decided to continue to further pick the scabs of that war. In effect expanding out the cleanup of that war in the north a lot larger than it needed to be.
By the end of ASOS I *personally* felt fairly satisfied with a 5 year gap. None of what I read online at that time indicated differently.
The rape of the kingdom was already shown in the Arya chapters in ACOK/ASOS. I felt fairly well satisfied with the glimpses I got there. Most of GAF felt the same way, with the majority view being that it took a while for Brienne's chapters to pick up, which thankfully they did at the end.
As for Dorne? Much ado about nothing. They didn't need as many chapters as they got. *Spoilers for Book 4 & Book 5*
All I got to see was just how much of a bad ass Wyman Manderly is compared to Doran Martell.
Yeah, I could do without
an extended further fleshing out of a continent that is a marginal player. If he's going to go down that route, he could have at least given us fucking Asshai. Not the many sided world of Volantes. I had no problem with what went on the Wall... I indicated as such in my post.
Compared to the epic feel of the first 3 books, yes, I would say that's nothing.
A Game of Thrones wasn't just build up to the War of the Five Kings. It was its own separate book. It was about introducing you to the major characters in the book, setting up your expectations, and then dashing them to the floor. It was about the end of a time of peace in the land, the last days of summer, and then the introduction of a great conflict at the end. It gave you a ton of back story about the world in general in just a few chapters. It made it an integral part of the action of the book. And boy, did that book move quickly. For example, Tyrion basically traveled across the entire northern half of Westeros in that book, and was embroiled in several different mini-arcs throughout. Here, in ADWD, Tyrion just has one arc, and that's an arc
which hasn't even resulted in him meeting Daenarys yet.
It wasn't just a simple introductory novel. It was a wake up call to the entire genre of fantasy. It was much more than just a "build up to the War of the Five Kings."
AFFC/ADWD were more reminiscent of the gimmicks one would say in a fantasy trilogy. Biting cliffhangers, and no real resolution in middle novels.
I could make the first three books sound more complicated than that. The first three books were about The Iron Born vs. the North vs. Renly vs. Stannis vs. Joffrey vs. The Others vs. The Wildings vs. The Wall vs. The Old Gods vs. The Faith vs. R'Hllor vs. The Dothraki vs. The Slaver Cities, with Arya providing valuable commentary on the state of the kingdoms themselves. Something that you indicate here was missing until we got Brienne's chapters.
I think you incredibly devalue the first three books in an effort to pump up AFFC/ADWD.
If there is a second trilogy, then tell me why the entire series is called ASOIAF? How can there be two trilogies if there is but one series, one seamless narrative? Why not just change the names of both series?
It's a mechanical distinction that you are making, which you feel that everyone else should make. However, there is no clean divider to create that distinction anymore.
AGOT gave you a plot-line - "Ned Stark goes south amidst the backdrop of his son being pushed out by a Lannister due to spying on them having incestuous relations. Daenarys Targaryen marries a Dothraki Khal to help her brother get an army. Tyrion gets ping ponged all over the map. Jon Snow goes to The Wall to become a man and fight The Others."
It resolved almost all of those plot lines in one book, and then used the fall out from those resolutions to fuel the next books. It introduced a plot, dashed it to pieces, and then set the board up for a new plot. It was its own full featured novel, in addition to being a set piece.
You greatly devalue AGOT by just viewing it as a set piece. That's what ADWD/AFFC are... AGOT was superior to that.
It was the anti-Jordan.
I don't know if it's in the printed version or not, but has anyone noticed the formatting of dialogue in the Kindle version is weird?
Standard convention when there's a conversation is to have each character's dialogue on a new line so it's easy to determine who is speaking. This isn't out it's set out in Dance With Dragons and it makes it pretty confusing to read at times.
So just an example I've completely made up:
Except in this example Jon Snow is saying "Colder than usual."
Really annoying.
Standard convention when there's a conversation is to have each character's dialogue on a new line so it's easy to determine who is speaking. This isn't out it's set out in Dance With Dragons and it makes it pretty confusing to read at times.
So just an example I've completely made up:
Except in this example Jon Snow is saying "Colder than usual."
Really annoying.
Greyface said:
I really dont understand how someone can do that. youre missing out on a key part of the story and it messes up the pacing of the book.
anyway. Im around a third of the way through and I really like it. My favourite bits have been the Bran chapters so far but that was no surprise for me.
Tyrions chapters are also picking up, imo. especially since theres less time dedicated to self pity after those first couple chapters.
Now I gotta dive back in for another couple hours.
Mockingbird
Member
shintoki said:
You're wrong. The whole thing was originally titled a dance with dragons until GRRM realized it would be too big and thus had to split the books. It was after that which he decided to just title adwd part I as affc.
ZephyrFate
Banned
uhhh... no? The fourth book has always been called A Feast for Crows. Then it was split and we got ADWD, which was never intended to be a title of a book in the series and honestly, has very little to do with dancing or dragons.Mockingbird said:
Finished the book yesterday. I really liked the book although I'm still disappointed that this took 6 goddamn years for him to write. Speaking of long gaps of wasted time, what happened to the whole 5 year gap thing? There's no way ADWD takes place over the 5 year period of time between ASOS and the (originally planned) fourth book, and with all the cliffhangers George left us with TWOW is not going to jump ahead another 4 or so years.
>Complete ADWD spoilers below<
>Complete ADWD spoilers below<
Bran: Really enjoyed his chapters. His journey beyond the wall was written and suspenseful. He really should have had more than 3 chapters.
Reek/Theon: His chapters were perhaps my favorite in the whole book. We finally got to witness Roose and Ramsay interact with each other and of course the liberation of Jeyne Pool was exciting as well.
Davos: His chapters were also great and too few. Loved the scene with Manderly plotting revenge.
Jon: Liked his chapters and loved his interactions with Mel. Like most people I don't think he's gone for good, at the very least he'll be in control of ghost. I don't know if Jon is Azor Ahai or if George is just trolling his fans with all of the prophecy stuff around his death
Dany: Truly the Brienne of ADWD. I used to enjoy reading Dany's chapters but now when I come upon one I find that it's a good place to stop reading. Didn't care much for her frothing over Daario or her need to protect her "children" or any of the other boneheaded shit she pulled in the book. The only interesting Dany moments came at the very end.
Quentyn: Didn't really see the point of his existence in this series. Not that I hated him as a character, I just didn't see the point of reading about his journey to Mereen and then watch him fail miserably. Did George need someone to loose the other two dragons upon the city? It seemed like they were well on their way to burrowing out anyways. Unless the other two knights that accompanied him have some interesting events ahead of them with the Tattered Prince, I just don't see the point of having three Dornishmen in the book.
Barristan: Probably the best of the Mereen POV characters and the only one that had any sense. His fight with Krazz(?) was great and his inner thoughts about dead Westerosi characters are always welcome.
Tyrion: Loved his early chapters, especially the ones with Griff. His post capture chapters weren't quite as strong but they were still much better than Dany's chapters.
Mereen: I hate this city, I hate Slaver's Bay and I hate Essos. It's no where near as interesting of developed as Westeros which is where the series should be focused. Worst of all in the book, none of this shit is resolved which means we get to go back to it in TWOW.
Griff: Loved Connington's chapters and the Aegon reveal. Also love the fact that they actually landed in Westeros in this book and that they're not going to dilly-dally around Essos for several books like another Targ.
Cersei: Loved her chapters, especially the walk of atonement. With Kevan and Pycelle dead I'm looking forward to her reeking havoc upon King's Landing again although I have a feeling she won't be quite as dumb as before.
Jaime: One chapter? Really? Well, I'm really looking forward to the resolution of the whole Brienne/Stoneheart/Jaime cliffhanger in another 5 years.
Reek/Theon: His chapters were perhaps my favorite in the whole book. We finally got to witness Roose and Ramsay interact with each other and of course the liberation of Jeyne Pool was exciting as well.
Davos: His chapters were also great and too few. Loved the scene with Manderly plotting revenge.
Jon: Liked his chapters and loved his interactions with Mel. Like most people I don't think he's gone for good, at the very least he'll be in control of ghost. I don't know if Jon is Azor Ahai or if George is just trolling his fans with all of the prophecy stuff around his death
Dany: Truly the Brienne of ADWD. I used to enjoy reading Dany's chapters but now when I come upon one I find that it's a good place to stop reading. Didn't care much for her frothing over Daario or her need to protect her "children" or any of the other boneheaded shit she pulled in the book. The only interesting Dany moments came at the very end.
Quentyn: Didn't really see the point of his existence in this series. Not that I hated him as a character, I just didn't see the point of reading about his journey to Mereen and then watch him fail miserably. Did George need someone to loose the other two dragons upon the city? It seemed like they were well on their way to burrowing out anyways. Unless the other two knights that accompanied him have some interesting events ahead of them with the Tattered Prince, I just don't see the point of having three Dornishmen in the book.
Barristan: Probably the best of the Mereen POV characters and the only one that had any sense. His fight with Krazz(?) was great and his inner thoughts about dead Westerosi characters are always welcome.
Tyrion: Loved his early chapters, especially the ones with Griff. His post capture chapters weren't quite as strong but they were still much better than Dany's chapters.
Mereen: I hate this city, I hate Slaver's Bay and I hate Essos. It's no where near as interesting of developed as Westeros which is where the series should be focused. Worst of all in the book, none of this shit is resolved which means we get to go back to it in TWOW.
Griff: Loved Connington's chapters and the Aegon reveal. Also love the fact that they actually landed in Westeros in this book and that they're not going to dilly-dally around Essos for several books like another Targ.
Cersei: Loved her chapters, especially the walk of atonement. With Kevan and Pycelle dead I'm looking forward to her reeking havoc upon King's Landing again although I have a feeling she won't be quite as dumb as before.
Jaime: One chapter? Really? Well, I'm really looking forward to the resolution of the whole Brienne/Stoneheart/Jaime cliffhanger in another 5 years.
ZephyrFate
Banned
The point of
character is to cement the
Quentyn's
"words are wind" idea, something that is pervasive throughout ADWD.
You've got it backwards. ADWD was originally going to be the 4th book (actually I think it was going to be the third book way, way, waaaaay back) but then George went back to write the 5 year gap and split the book into two. Originally AFFC was never going to be a title in ASoIaF. Not that any of this discussion of what was originally planned matters because the series was originally going to be 3 books, then 4, then 6, and now 7. Hopefully he can stick to that.ZephyrFate said:
uncdeez said:
I agree with you on most everything, except Braavos is awesome. I think all of the characaters that sprang from that place are interesting, the location is quite good, and the Ayra chapters are great as well.
But yea, Slaver's bay sucks. None of the characters from that bay are interesting at all, and I think that is one of the main problems with the Dany chapters, she doesnt have anyone else interesting to talk to. Sure, once we got inside Barriston's head he was interesting, but before that? Not really. We saw how Tyrion's chapters took a hit when all of the interesting characters around him left. I have a feeling that the interactions between Dany and Tyrion will be awesome though. So much history and animosity and ignorance that Tyrion can mock, abuse, reveal, and educate
But yea, that is the problem with Slavers bay. No character from Slaver's bay is interesting. Braavos has the Faceless Men and Ayra can hold a chapter on her own (I think the whole history, culture, etc of Braavos is pretty interetsing as well). Pentos has Illyrio, who is pretty interesting, but Slaver's bay has no one.
But yea, Slaver's bay sucks. None of the characters from that bay are interesting at all, and I think that is one of the main problems with the Dany chapters, she doesnt have anyone else interesting to talk to. Sure, once we got inside Barriston's head he was interesting, but before that? Not really. We saw how Tyrion's chapters took a hit when all of the interesting characters around him left. I have a feeling that the interactions between Dany and Tyrion will be awesome though. So much history and animosity and ignorance that Tyrion can mock, abuse, reveal, and educate
But yea, that is the problem with Slavers bay. No character from Slaver's bay is interesting. Braavos has the Faceless Men and Ayra can hold a chapter on her own (I think the whole history, culture, etc of Braavos is pretty interetsing as well). Pentos has Illyrio, who is pretty interesting, but Slaver's bay has no one.
No real spoilers of any kind in this post, but best not too highlight unless you've read the whole thing:
Finished it, spoiler-free for real AT LAST. Goddamn. I started reading the entire series only a few weeks before the premiere of the show, the 15-minute preview HBO released to the wild convinced me. I devoured the first three books in less than two weeks, every time I finished a chapter I could not put the book down, I had to know what was gonna happen next. A Feast For Crows took me more than two months, mostly because I needed to give myself a breather from reading these bitches.
ADWD truly is AFFC Part 2, but worse. Slow, meandering, little to no excitement. Everything moves so slowly, it was tiresome and boring very often, I had to make myself carry on. Maybe one day many years from now(god knows there will be many years to come before the next book) I'll re-read the series and I like it more than I do now. But right now, I'm disappointed. Definitely my least liked book of the five. I said it before, but the Dany chapters were torture, plan torture and went nowhere. Awful, unspeakably awful.
My favorite chapters were easily the
ones, and the final ones:
Seriously, the whole Dany stuff almost seemed like GRRM was trolling the fans.
I agree with those that say that GRRM has stretched himself to thin. Too many characters, too many plotlines, too messy, it's just too much. There's no focus that I can see.
edit: This book is evil to those that have been waiting all these years.
Finished it, spoiler-free for real AT LAST. Goddamn. I started reading the entire series only a few weeks before the premiere of the show, the 15-minute preview HBO released to the wild convinced me. I devoured the first three books in less than two weeks, every time I finished a chapter I could not put the book down, I had to know what was gonna happen next. A Feast For Crows took me more than two months, mostly because I needed to give myself a breather from reading these bitches.
ADWD truly is AFFC Part 2, but worse. Slow, meandering, little to no excitement. Everything moves so slowly, it was tiresome and boring very often, I had to make myself carry on. Maybe one day many years from now(god knows there will be many years to come before the next book) I'll re-read the series and I like it more than I do now. But right now, I'm disappointed. Definitely my least liked book of the five. I said it before, but the Dany chapters were torture, plan torture and went nowhere. Awful, unspeakably awful.
My favorite chapters were easily the
Theon/Reek
Barristan almost redeemed the garbage that is Mereen. Almost.
Seriously, the whole Dany stuff almost seemed like GRRM was trolling the fans.
I agree with those that say that GRRM has stretched himself to thin. Too many characters, too many plotlines, too messy, it's just too much. There's no focus that I can see.
edit: This book is evil to those that have been waiting all these years.
Didn't even get Cersei's trial, LAWLZ
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
uncdeez said:
Yep, although I think ADWD was originally the 2nd out of 3 titles. Wasn't it A Game of Thrones, A Dance With Dragons, A Time For Wolves originally? And then it became four, six, seven books. Then I believe he decided on AFFC as the title for the "5 year gap" book which would be followed by ADWD, but then AFFC got split and he used the ADWD title.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Man, all the talk of flaying in this book really, really makes me squirm. What an awful act of torture, flaying is.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I dunno, I'm "only" 250 pages in, and it's slow going yes, but that slow going is an order of magnitude more enjoyable to read than almost the entirety of Feast.
That said, both books could easily have just been one tightened story, instead of two bloated messes.
That said, both books could easily have just been one tightened story, instead of two bloated messes.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I'm at 38% or so now, not getting as much time as I'd like with it, but I have to say this
(spoilers up to 38% on kindle)
(spoilers up to 38% on kindle)
mother of god somebody kill those bolton fuckers already
Sirpopopop
Member
Gonaria said:
Braavos works, because a lot of the background there, is just that - background. It's woven quite well into Arya's narrative, and it's not over-abused as a setting.
aronnov reborn
Banned
catfish said:
I'm at 39% and I totally Agree
Ramsey Needs to die.. just kill the fucker
ZephyrFate
Banned
Or we should encourage people to actually read the whole book.tino said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
It's a cornerstone ofyacobod said:
Quentyn Martell's
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
yacobod said:
It's definitely in the other books, but it is used to nth degree in this book. As useful as nipples on a breastplate also got a lot of play in ADWD, with one actual breastplate with nipples on it.
ZephyrFate said:
Ultimately his quest doesn't really matter. His quest isn't relevant to the events in the North at all but yet the phrase turns up in every single POV in the book.
I'm not trying to be overly critical because most of the North stuff was excellent, but GURM really dropped the ball in Mereen. The so called "Mereneese knot" wasn't even solved, it got more tangled by the end of Dance. It's going to take another half a book to get Dany out of Mereen the way things are moving.
ZephyrFate
Banned
But that's the point, though. His quest is supposed to be a failure, but he's in a position in which he can't just go back empty-handed. It IS relevant to what's happening in Dorne though, which DOES affect what's going on in the North.
Halfway through the book right now. Dany's chapters are pretty bad, but I've never liked her as a character. The North's chapters have all been great. He might be going overboard with all the characters that he's introducing, but I imagine that there are going to be a lot of POV characters getting killed in book 6.
ADWD seems to be AFFC part 2 thus far. Most seem to think the second half of the book isn't as good as the first, which is dissapointing, but we'll see.
Series thoughts:
AFFC was much better on second read. Didn't like it the first time due to expecting ASOS action. Once you're not expecting that, much better.
ACOK is the worst book in the series. Nothing at all happens for the first 2/3 of the book. I think people have some rose colored glasses about that book. Yes, Tryrion shines in that book, but until I re-read it, I was actually thinking that a lot of what happened in ASOS happened in ACOK. Either that or else people just love Arya a lot more than I do.
ADWD seems to be AFFC part 2 thus far. Most seem to think the second half of the book isn't as good as the first, which is dissapointing, but we'll see.
Series thoughts:
AFFC was much better on second read. Didn't like it the first time due to expecting ASOS action. Once you're not expecting that, much better.
ACOK is the worst book in the series. Nothing at all happens for the first 2/3 of the book. I think people have some rose colored glasses about that book. Yes, Tryrion shines in that book, but until I re-read it, I was actually thinking that a lot of what happened in ASOS happened in ACOK. Either that or else people just love Arya a lot more than I do.
So, I finished the book this morning. I'm afraid you can count me among the people who unabashedly love this book. I don't know if I'm fawning or being a sycophant, but I thought the book was well written, including the much despised Dany and semi-despised Tyrion chapters. I feel as if I need to expand my literary palette, to better compare the writing in this book to other books - it's possible that what I consider great doesn't really hold a candle to true "literary" or other fantasy works.
With the Dany and Jon chapters, I thought we were given yet another window into the difficulties, the hard choices that have to be made, when you are forced to rule and make decisions - or indecision, as the case may be. It makes you wonder why anyone would want that type of power or authority - it rarely seems healthy for anyone who doesn't have an absolutely ruthless mindset. I admired the fact that the problems were progressive. The situation just seemed to get worse and worse, with no easy way out - which may be part of the point.
Then there are the
chapters. As I said in another thread with respect to her chapters in AFFC, these chapters could easily be remixed, and stand alone as well written novellas in their own right ( and GRRM is responsible for two of my favorite SF novellas of all time - Nightflyers and Sandkings).
The North storyline was amazing, which I never thought I'd say. And while I've forgotten or barely remembered any of the pre-book historical characters, I think the time spent constantly mentioning these characters does pay off way down the line, as it did in this book. So while certain details were not fresh or unremembered in my mind, I nevertheless understood the impact of certain character reveals, without it feeling cheap, at least to me.
With the Dany and Jon chapters, I thought we were given yet another window into the difficulties, the hard choices that have to be made, when you are forced to rule and make decisions - or indecision, as the case may be. It makes you wonder why anyone would want that type of power or authority - it rarely seems healthy for anyone who doesn't have an absolutely ruthless mindset. I admired the fact that the problems were progressive. The situation just seemed to get worse and worse, with no easy way out - which may be part of the point.
Then there are the
Arya and Bran
The North storyline was amazing, which I never thought I'd say. And while I've forgotten or barely remembered any of the pre-book historical characters, I think the time spent constantly mentioning these characters does pay off way down the line, as it did in this book. So while certain details were not fresh or unremembered in my mind, I nevertheless understood the impact of certain character reveals, without it feeling cheap, at least to me.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Nah man, don't worry. You don't have to have a standard to compare the book to to really love it. It stands on its own merits very well.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I'm about 500 pages in, and I've really noticed that George has taken a strong liking to the word "sire" with this book.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
jett said:
Yeah, there is definitely some weird stuff with the formatting that confuses me sometimes. In fact, I'm still confused about a certain trait he gave one of the two Walder squires.
Was it Big Walder who was the bigger (in size) boy, or Little Walder?
I've finished the book today and read over the thread, so here are my own thoughts on it.
Jon: For me, this is indisputably the best storyline in the book. It all seemed so hopeless at first, but Jon somehow swelled the watches numbers up to the thousands (even if fewer people actually joined the watch, they worked for them, which is good enough), rehabilitated the castles, found the funds to gain enough food for the winter. Yet all the while, his men grew more and more unhappy with him, and it ended in that shocking turn. (The Varamyr thing didn't tip me off. All I thought was that Jon would embrace his warg powers more ). I doubt that he is actually, fully dead, but we'll see. All the same, the end seriously depressed me. I had a hard time concentrating on the last few chapters because of this. Brilliant story arc.
Dany: I read most of the thread over before I decided to write this, but it shocks me how many people missed the point of the the story. "HURRR, THIS IS OUT OF CHARACTER, WHY DOESN'T SHE JUST BURN THE CITY TO THE GROUND" Yeah...does anyone else remember what happened to her at the end of ASOS? She just got news that her efforts for peace in Astapor and Yunkai, she realized that conquering a city and ruling it were two entirely different things. And that's the point, she didn't simply want to be a destroyer, someone who comes in fucks everything up. That's why she doesn't simply go and burn shit up with her dragons, because that's not why she's lingering in Meereen.
This is also why so much backstory on Essoss was necessary. As a diplomat, she needed to understand their customs and reach a compromise that would allow her people to live happily without destroying Meereen's economy and culture. In the end, it turns out to be fruitless. She fails and now realizees that she can only be a tool of destruction. I wonder if she even wants to rule Westeros anymore, with how she's sure she'll be inept in doing so. This is the way in which she grew, and anyone who says her chapters were meandering and filler or is filled with useless backstory on the Meereen is missing the point.
That said, while the people who are crying out that this was background filler or out of character are out of their minds, I understand the notion of people who simply find these boring. I didn't think they were bad, but they weren't on the level of the politics of the Red Keep. I think this is mainly an issue with familiarity. These were strange names with weird customs and we are all more concerned about whats happening at Westeros, because that's where the important stuff is. Like GRRM mentioned, Westeros is the star of the show and other lands are only important in so far as to reflect that. In this case, they are important as they are developing Dany's character and who she will be in Westeros once she gets there, and we know this, so the meereen chapters just feel like a drag. On top of this, we were given the impression that many storylines would all converge on Dany, which didn't happen, so many were a bit disappointed. Personally, I believe that when I reread this book, with the greater sense of who is who and what is what, I will enjoy these chapters far more.
Quentyn and Barristan: These 2, once Dany got on her dragon and left, were there to finish the story of Meereen. Quentyn was there because he wanted to get the dragons, and while that may have ended in failure, it wasn't meaningless as people have talked about as he did release Rhaegal and Viserion. And the fact that he burned for it is probably going to hurt relations between Aegon and Dorne. His journey failed, but that hardly means it was meaningless. Barristan's story though....I suppose the jury's still out on that one. Dany's time in Meereen is done, or is about to be. As such, there is little point in his power play at the end there, but this strange alliance with Dorne may prove to be useful. It's like his last few chapters were Dany's own epilogues. But I feel, for the most part, it was set up.
Tyrion: His chapters were probably the most disappointing of the lot. Well written, to be sure, but I wanted to see him talk to Dany, to ride dragons. Instead Martin just kept trolling him. You going with Griff and the boys, LOL NOPE. Your actually going with Jorah Mormont EXCEPT NOT, YOUR GONNA BE SENT THERE AS A SLAVE LMAO
grrmtroll.jpg
Like Dany, his story is hardly wasted space. He needed something to kick him out his depressed stupor and get back on his feet to accomplish something. It's a shame that something is with the Second Son's, and by the time he gets Casterly Rock, everyone will have probably used up the gold anyway. I don't foresee a happy ending for our favorite little midget. Progress was made and it will be good to see where his story leads him.
However, I didn't enjoy his chapters as much as I should have, because I dislike characters with no real freedom. It's the same problem I had with Davos of ACOK, he was just there to do as he was told. Here, Tyrion is first at the mercy of Illyrio, then gets companionship with Griff's crew, then is captive by Jorah, then by the slavers. It's only at the end where he gets his freedom back and promises to get back into the game of thrones.
Theon: ...shit. I have to say that these were some of the most harrowing chapters I've ever read. Just holy shit levels of horror. Really well written stuff. And his struggle to return to the character he was was great. No complaints here.
Bran & Arya & Davos & Victarion & Cersei & Jaime : Their chapters were all absolutely fantastic, but why so few? While Bran, I can understand somewhat, he needs to fit into the timeline correctly while not revealing too much about his powers, I don't understand why Arya's 2 chapters couldn't be in a Feast For Crows. And Davos' didn't really lead anywhere either, which I find silly. i can't see why Cersei's and Jaime's chapters could not have been in the first few chapters of Winds of Winter. Also, why is Victarion a better guy than Euron again? There's just way too few of them, and while they're great, they don't add much to the overall story.
Asha: Her's weren't too bad, but I don't know if they were particularly remarkable in any way either. They were a window to show us what stannis was doing, basically, which is fine, because...shit is fucked up in the North, goddamn.
Overall thoughts: Even though I can't really fault any of it, right now it leaves somewhat of a disappointed taste in my mouth. Perhaps, like Feast, I had expected too much of a rush, like ASoS was. Which is fine, all that means is that I will enjoy it all the more when I reread it a year down the line or so. It had some truly great moments, and Jon's storyline was fucking awesome. But it feels fragmented, particularly in the case of the characters who only got a few chapters to their name. To make them fully awesome, they need to have full, complete storylines, not just these bits and pieces.
). I doubt that he is actually, fully dead, but we'll see. All the same, the end seriously depressed me. I had a hard time concentrating on the last few chapters because of this. Brilliant story arc.Dany: I read most of the thread over before I decided to write this, but it shocks me how many people missed the point of the the story. "HURRR, THIS IS OUT OF CHARACTER, WHY DOESN'T SHE JUST BURN THE CITY TO THE GROUND" Yeah...does anyone else remember what happened to her at the end of ASOS? She just got news that her efforts for peace in Astapor and Yunkai, she realized that conquering a city and ruling it were two entirely different things. And that's the point, she didn't simply want to be a destroyer, someone who comes in fucks everything up. That's why she doesn't simply go and burn shit up with her dragons, because that's not why she's lingering in Meereen.
This is also why so much backstory on Essoss was necessary. As a diplomat, she needed to understand their customs and reach a compromise that would allow her people to live happily without destroying Meereen's economy and culture. In the end, it turns out to be fruitless. She fails and now realizees that she can only be a tool of destruction. I wonder if she even wants to rule Westeros anymore, with how she's sure she'll be inept in doing so. This is the way in which she grew, and anyone who says her chapters were meandering and filler or is filled with useless backstory on the Meereen is missing the point.
That said, while the people who are crying out that this was background filler or out of character are out of their minds, I understand the notion of people who simply find these boring. I didn't think they were bad, but they weren't on the level of the politics of the Red Keep. I think this is mainly an issue with familiarity. These were strange names with weird customs and we are all more concerned about whats happening at Westeros, because that's where the important stuff is. Like GRRM mentioned, Westeros is the star of the show and other lands are only important in so far as to reflect that. In this case, they are important as they are developing Dany's character and who she will be in Westeros once she gets there, and we know this, so the meereen chapters just feel like a drag. On top of this, we were given the impression that many storylines would all converge on Dany, which didn't happen, so many were a bit disappointed. Personally, I believe that when I reread this book, with the greater sense of who is who and what is what, I will enjoy these chapters far more.
Quentyn and Barristan: These 2, once Dany got on her dragon and left, were there to finish the story of Meereen. Quentyn was there because he wanted to get the dragons, and while that may have ended in failure, it wasn't meaningless as people have talked about as he did release Rhaegal and Viserion. And the fact that he burned for it is probably going to hurt relations between Aegon and Dorne. His journey failed, but that hardly means it was meaningless. Barristan's story though....I suppose the jury's still out on that one. Dany's time in Meereen is done, or is about to be. As such, there is little point in his power play at the end there, but this strange alliance with Dorne may prove to be useful. It's like his last few chapters were Dany's own epilogues. But I feel, for the most part, it was set up.
Tyrion: His chapters were probably the most disappointing of the lot. Well written, to be sure, but I wanted to see him talk to Dany, to ride dragons. Instead Martin just kept trolling him. You going with Griff and the boys, LOL NOPE. Your actually going with Jorah Mormont EXCEPT NOT, YOUR GONNA BE SENT THERE AS A SLAVE LMAO
grrmtroll.jpg
Like Dany, his story is hardly wasted space. He needed something to kick him out his depressed stupor and get back on his feet to accomplish something. It's a shame that something is with the Second Son's, and by the time he gets Casterly Rock, everyone will have probably used up the gold anyway. I don't foresee a happy ending for our favorite little midget. Progress was made and it will be good to see where his story leads him.
However, I didn't enjoy his chapters as much as I should have, because I dislike characters with no real freedom. It's the same problem I had with Davos of ACOK, he was just there to do as he was told. Here, Tyrion is first at the mercy of Illyrio, then gets companionship with Griff's crew, then is captive by Jorah, then by the slavers. It's only at the end where he gets his freedom back and promises to get back into the game of thrones.
Theon: ...shit. I have to say that these were some of the most harrowing chapters I've ever read. Just holy shit levels of horror. Really well written stuff. And his struggle to return to the character he was was great. No complaints here.
Bran & Arya & Davos & Victarion & Cersei & Jaime : Their chapters were all absolutely fantastic, but why so few? While Bran, I can understand somewhat, he needs to fit into the timeline correctly while not revealing too much about his powers, I don't understand why Arya's 2 chapters couldn't be in a Feast For Crows. And Davos' didn't really lead anywhere either, which I find silly. i can't see why Cersei's and Jaime's chapters could not have been in the first few chapters of Winds of Winter. Also, why is Victarion a better guy than Euron again? There's just way too few of them, and while they're great, they don't add much to the overall story.
Asha: Her's weren't too bad, but I don't know if they were particularly remarkable in any way either. They were a window to show us what stannis was doing, basically, which is fine, because...shit is fucked up in the North, goddamn.
Overall thoughts: Even though I can't really fault any of it, right now it leaves somewhat of a disappointed taste in my mouth. Perhaps, like Feast, I had expected too much of a rush, like ASoS was. Which is fine, all that means is that I will enjoy it all the more when I reread it a year down the line or so. It had some truly great moments, and Jon's storyline was fucking awesome. But it feels fragmented, particularly in the case of the characters who only got a few chapters to their name. To make them fully awesome, they need to have full, complete storylines, not just these bits and pieces.
HarryHengst
Member
Generic said:
Maybe you should post it in this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433233&page=26
Basileus777
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
...jesus
spoilers up to page 923 US Hardcover
spoilers up to page 923 US Hardcover
...holy shit...
Martin just took took threw a host of fanboys and (especially) fangirls out a fucking window. Thanks to a host of assholes, I knew something was going to happen to Jon; I knew he would be injured, but didn't know how, or how bad. That last chapter - or what I assume was his last chapter, as I haven't finished - read like a slow funeral procession (and a homage of Caesar). The pieces had been carefully (or carelessly depending on your perspective) placed in order from his very first chapter. Seeing Melisandre, the Night's Watch, etc leave the hall sealed the deal - he was fucked. Jesus. I doubt he's dead though...which will kind of be stupid. Way too many fake outs and resurrections already
And I also doubt Ramsay's letter is true in regards to Stannis. I must say the handling of the Bolton/Stannis campaign has been one of my few complaints about the novel thus far, but I'll discuss that after I finish.
Also: LOL Quentyn.
Martin just took took threw a host of fanboys and (especially) fangirls out a fucking window. Thanks to a host of assholes, I knew something was going to happen to Jon; I knew he would be injured, but didn't know how, or how bad. That last chapter - or what I assume was his last chapter, as I haven't finished - read like a slow funeral procession (and a homage of Caesar). The pieces had been carefully (or carelessly depending on your perspective) placed in order from his very first chapter. Seeing Melisandre, the Night's Watch, etc leave the hall sealed the deal - he was fucked. Jesus. I doubt he's dead though...which will kind of be stupid. Way too many fake outs and resurrections already
And I also doubt Ramsay's letter is true in regards to Stannis. I must say the handling of the Bolton/Stannis campaign has been one of my few complaints about the novel thus far, but I'll discuss that after I finish.
Also: LOL Quentyn.
PhoenixDark said:
you know nothing PD.
But how stupid is Jon for not keeping Ghost at his side at all times? He's like Dany level stupid for sending all his potential friends away from him. I doubt he's dead though because he's surrounded by wildlings that support him, ghost is nearby, and so is Melisandre. He's totally going to be AA reborn. Mel says something to the effect "I look for AA and all I see is Snow (with the emphasis that it's capitalized).