Oh fuck yes it is. ACOK, while it had the Battle of the Blackwater, was an incredibly dull transitional novel with none of the fantastic writing of AFFC/ADWD or any of the lorebuilding.
I don't know how you can praise Brienne's AFFC chapters for world building and say Arya's very similar ACOK chapters didn't do the same. Qarth, the House of the Undying, Harrenhal, Dragonstone, Melisandre, Storm's End, Bitterbridge, and the stuff beyond the Wall don't count as world building either? Even Tyrion's chapters fleshed out King's Landing beyond the Red Keep and told us about the pyromancers.
Definitely. Overall ACOK is better. You've got Tyrion's manuevering in King's Landing. The Battle of the Blackwater. The Riot in King's Landing. Arya's misadventures through the riverlands and the departure of Yoren. Time with the Mountain. Jaqen and the ghost and mouse of Harrenhal. The rise of Stannis. Renly's peach. Intro of Davos and Melisandre. Theon v Winterfell. Jon beyond the wall. Quorin Halfhand. Craster's Keep. Sansa and the Hound. Dany and the Undying (the fact that Dany only had 4 chapters in the book also helps). Catelyn's awesome final confrontation with Jaime. So much.
I disagree. ACOK is the worst book. Catelyn does nothing. Arya chapters have only one interested character besides her. Jon really does nothing until the last chapter or two. Sansa does nothing. Dany does nothing.
Honestly, Tyrion and Davos chapters are the lone bright spots. I still cant believe people accuse Brienne chapters from AFOC or Tyrion's chapters from ADWD being boring while in a straight face defend the absolutely nothing that happens for 3/4 of ACOK.
Im not saying that ADWD is a masterpiece. Its quite clearly the third best book in the series, though.
I don't know why more people aren't talking about Arya. Her two chapters were the best part of the book in my opinion, and she continues to be my favorite character hands down. There is so much mystery revolving around her storyline, and I can't wait to see how it eventually wraps around to events in the Seven Kingdoms. Barriston Selmy was also great in this book. He is well written and has some great end of book chapters. I enjoyed the book, but it seems like it is just playing catch up for most of the book, which it is, and the latter half is just set up for The Winds of Winter. Also Danny's stubbornness got annoying really quickly. The fighting pits, the dragons, just do something already.
One of the best things about the first 3 books was the pacing. The narrative had a slow build up and kept ramping up and didn't let you go until the dramatic climaxes (less so for ACoK) and then a couple slow chapters at the end for recollection and breather. With the last 2 books, we got left with cheap cliffhangers so it just felt incomplete. I would have been totally fine with the world building if the events that the book was building up to in the north and in Meereen actually happened instead of leaving us with such an unsatisfactory ending.
Oh fuck yes it is. ACOK, while it had the Battle of the Blackwater, was an incredibly dull transitional novel with none of the fantastic writing of AFFC/ADWD or any of the lorebuilding.
I don't know how you can praise Brienne's AFFC chapters for world building and say Arya's very similar ACOK chapters didn't do the same. Qarth, the House of the Undying, Harrenhal, Dragonstone, Melisandre, Storm's End, Bitterbridge, and the stuff beyond the Wall don't count as world building either? Even Tyrion's chapters fleshed out King's Landing beyond the Red Keep and told us about the pyromancers.
I won't deny that Arya's chapters were the best part of ACOK. And Melisandre and Rh'llor don't need any building up because, let's face it, they're more of a presumed threat than an actual one, and honestly seem totally false. The majority of the lands beyond the Wall are more fleshed out in ASOS, though. We get a taste of it in ACOK that is realized in the next novel.
Which is what ACOK aside from the Battle of the Blackwater, sweet tastes of what's to come, but nothing substantial. While AFFC/ADWD do the same, they also provide so much backstory that you become enmeshed in what, at first, seems like minutiae.
Martin had a chance to craft the greatest fantasy series to date. Yes, even better than Lord of the Rings. He blew it with AFFC/ADWD. At this point, I would also rate the FIRST Farseer Trilogy* ahead of ASOIAF. While Martin is, no doubt, a great writer, I would also argue that the first Farseer Trilogy was well written as well, with one of the best endings I've ever read in any book. Plus, it had better plot management than ASOIAF seems to have now.
While I'm at it, I need to re-read Gene Wolfe's The Wizard Knight. I may need to slot that one above ASOIAF as well.
Martin's starting to lose the plot, like Jordan did. There's a chink in ASOIAF's armor.
yeah, and I've even read parts of the Farseer Trilogy. To say any of that is better than Martin is just... wow... on a level of hilarity I can't even begin to describe.
Also, Gene Wolfe?!
if we're gonna talk about any writers of an even comparable level with Martin, or any series even comparable, let's go The Black Company, works by Abercrombie, the Malazan books, etc.
Finished the book, and I'm finding it difficult to form a concrete stance on what I experienced.
On the one hand, it feels like the weakest entry in the saga due to the various new players being introduced midway through the series, with their own respective plot-lines and motivations. I felt soured by the over-reliance on cliffhangers in lieu of resolution, and would have gladly given up some of the beautifully-written lore exposition for better closure, given that I've waited 11 years for this half of the story. I disliked the use of cliffhangers in Dust of Dreams, for a recent example, and it's no different here.
On the other hand, while the plot has lost its single-minded focus and meanders like some of the second-half WoT books while Martin gets his various players into place, the events that take place in Dance could be of grave importance, like it eventually was for WoT. But then again, if being a fan of GRRM's works since 1996 has taught me anything, he is fond of being unpredictable and shocking one's sensibilities, like with the Red Wedding, and I wouldn't be surprised if the expected resolutions and climaxes in the next book don't occur.
Judge on its own merits, Dance felt like nothing more than a transitional novel (which could turn out to be vital when all is said and done), with all the pieces being moved into place, but unless I know how it all turns out, and how much closure GRRM gives us, it's difficult to say whether I like the expanded scope that the last two novels employ.
Okay, and I can say the same for Gene Wolfe. I find him to be a completely unremarkable writer.
Anyway, back to discussion on ADWD and not terrible authors, I think it will be looked more favorably upon when TWOW is here, and we see why we needed two books of transitioning and world construction.
The fuck he has. What do you not understand about AFFC & ADWD being build-up for upcoming conflicts? Things can't just keep going on full steam ahead after what happened in ASOS.
Using whole books for build-up is an absolute waste of economy.
Have a beginning, middle, and an end.
Not a beginning, something in the middle, and then "blah" with the exception of one plot line.
AGOT isn't the fastest advancing fantasy book ever (the first 400-500 pages are really slow) but it's the basis of an awesome trilogy, same can and quite likely WILL happen with AFFC/ADWD and the rest of the books. AFFC & ADWD are build-up, TWOW is where things start to speed up and ADOS could be the ASOS of this "second ASOIAF trilogy"
Unlike ADWD/AFFC, AGOT actually had y'know plot resolutions. If Tyrion's kidnapping in AGOT happened in ADWD/AFFC, we would probably have just reached the Vale at the end of AGOT, except Tyrion wouldn't be Catelyn's prisoner. He would be stuck in some camp for the Mountain Men at the base of Vale.
And you're plain out wrong in Daenerys not learning anything in Meereen. (whole ADWD spoilers)
How the fuck is her struggles against the Slavers, Sons of Harpies etc. not good literature? Especially when it leads to her realization of how a dragon doesn't fucking plant trees, but is all about fire & blood. Yes, there's a bit too much teen drama in there (though, she IS a teen), but that's not the focus of her story at all, just one of the subplots of her chapters.
I'll grant you that she learns one thing. That being, dragons are blood and fire and all that! Oh wait, I'm not going to grant you that at all. That was certainly a lesson she learned quite well in ASOS, with her initial run through the Slaver cities. Re-learning a lesson learned, certainly doesn't count! As for her strugglers with the Slavers, etc., if by learning, you mean standing around indecisively while just shouting "There shall be no more slavery or fighting pits!" then sure, she was learning.
You don't know where he's going with all this build-up, so no, until we get to Winds of Winter & A Dream of Spring, we can't say he's lost it. Besides, he HASN'T lost it. You don't understand these books if you think he has.
I didn't need to know where Jordan was going to determine that the books became too bloated for their own good. Why does Martin deserve a special break? I'll grant that he's much better than Jordan, because he writes great prose. However, that does not make him immune to criticism.
Plot economy matters. If I'm going to have a read a travelogue in a fantasy novel, at least make it memorable. Many of the best works of this genre revolve around exciting travelogues. There was no excitement here. Just another walk down roads we've already traveled.
But since they were meant to be two halves of the same book, they pretty much count as one book. I would say it still counts, it's just that publishers would never put out a book that large.
But since they were meant to be two halves of the same book, they pretty much count as one book. I would say it still counts, it's just that publishers would never put out a book that large.
GRRM initially thought the series would be a trilogy, that doesn't mean say acok and asos are one book. I think it'd make more sense to call ADWD + AFFC as one combined part of the greater story, because calling something over 700k words as one book is a gigantic stretch. A typical novel length is 80-100k words, you could fit entire series in AFFC+ADWD's word count.
I don't need to read future books to determine whether or not an author has lost the plot. All I need to do is look at the events of the present novels, and the amount of time an author spends chewing the scenery on repetitive details to make a determination on that count.
I don't need to read future books to determine whether or not an author has lost the plot. All I need to do is look at the events of the present novels, and the amount of time an author spends chewing the scenery on repetitive details to make a determination on that count.
Where are these repetitive details that he chews on? Backstory is not repetition. But yeah, you do actually have to read future books because you have no idea if he's actually lost it or not. It's pure fucking hyperbole.
I am pretty fucking sure Martin knows where he's going with the series, otherwise he would not have noted that he told HBO the ending, presuming he can't finish it.
Where are these repetitive details that he chews on? Backstory is not repetition. But yeah, you do actually have to read future books because you have no idea if he's actually lost it or not. It's pure fucking hyperbole.
I'm not one to disagree with you on Tyrion's chapters, but I thought
Quentyn's
were hilarious.
However, Tyrion's chapters did do a few things for us: It
expanded a lot of the mythos of the Free Cities, allowed us to find out that there's another Targ living (and another character who has Targ blood, if not directly a Targ), as well as introduced the greyscale disease, part of the main themes of ADWD.
Where are these repetitive details that he chews on? Backstory is not repetition. But yeah, you do actually have to read future books because you have no idea if he's actually lost it or not. It's pure fucking hyperbole.
I am pretty fucking sure Martin knows where he's going with the series, otherwise he would not have noted that he told HBO the ending, presuming he can't finish it.
I'm not one to disagree with you on Tyrion's chapters, but I thought
Quentyn's
were hilarious.
However, Tyrion's chapters did do a few things for us: It
expanded a lot of the mythos of the Free Cities, allowed us to find out that there's another Targ living (and another character who has Targ blood, if not directly a Targ), as well as introduced the greyscale disease, part of the main themes of ADWD.
3/4th of the items all happened in one chapter. The one chapter I noted with approval. The rest is repetitive. I could care less about the Free Cities in a series about Westeros.
3/4th of the items all happened in one chapter. The one chapter I noted with approval. The rest is repetitive. I could care less about the Free Cities in a series about Westeros.
Can you not be a condescending asshole during the discussion? Thanks.
You've never actually said why it's complete hogwash. You just state your view without backing it up with one shred of evidence. Your argument amounts to, "Yeah, but you need to read the sixth book to understand to make a determination on the fourth & fifth book."
I respond with, "Why not make a determination about the books on their own merits?"
You respond with, "Yeah, but you need to read the sixth book to understand to make a determination on the fourth & fifth book."
Can you not be a condescending asshole during the discussion? Thanks.
You've never actually said why it's complete hogwash. You just state your view without backing it up with one shred of evidence. Your argument amounts to, "Yeah, but you need to read the sixth book to understand to make a determination on the fourth & fifth book."
I respond with, "Why not make a determination about the books on their own merits?"
You respond with, "Yeah, but you need to read the sixth book to understand to make a determination on the fourth & fifth book."
Because these books have clearly shown that they are moving the pieces around to get all the somewhat-disconnected perspectives together after ASOS. Both of these novels have been about the fallout of that novel, and everyone scrambling together to make something of their now broken lives.
And with the movement that both books have given us in the plot, I can definitely see where Martin is going to go with TWIW and it definitely does not equate to him losing any sense of the plot.
There's been an interesting discussion on our forum concerning "orientalism" as it's expressed in your work, and one question it's led to among readers is whether you've ever considered a foreign point of view characters in Essos, to give a different window into events there.
No, this story is about Westeros. Those other lands are important only as they reflect on Westeros.
No, the entire point of her plotline was struggling with either ruling over the Slaver Cities, or leaving them all behind and going back to Westeros.
^^^^ Okay, but that's not what I said. I said the series is more than just Westeros, not that Westeros is NOT the focal point. And he also uses the word 'important', which suggests that yes, you should give a shit about Essos.
^^^^ Okay, but that's not what I said. I said the series is more than just Westeros, not that Westeros is NOT the focal point. And he also uses the word 'important', which suggests that yes, you should give a shit about Essos.
Fair enough, but I think that answer is still fairly telling. GRRM flat out states that Essos is only important in how it reflects on Westeros and the Westerosi characters the series revolves around. He would never consider having an eastern POV character because the story isn't about the people of Essos. I think it's part of the reason some people don't care for Dany's story, she's surrounded by a lot of one dimensional characters that aren't particularly well developed. The Yunkai slavers she is opposing are mostly grotesque caricatures. Bowen Marsh is humanized more than any of Dany's enemies.
Fair enough, but I think that answer is still fairly telling. GRRM flat out states that Essos is only important in how it reflects on Westeros and the Westerosi characters the series revolves around.
Which is what he's mostly done here with the perspectives in Essos and their politics and backstory. These are people who used to know the power of having someone on the Iron Throne, but had become disconnected with the fall of the Targaryen line and the Doom of Valyria. There's also interesting parallels between all of the different figures who want a piece of Dany's power, and the current scrambling over the Iron Throne back in Westeros.
Because these books have clearly shown that they are moving the pieces around to get all the somewhat-disconnected perspectives together after ASOS. Both of these novels have been about the fallout of that novel, and everyone scrambling together to make something of their now broken lives.
And with the movement that both books have given us in the plot, I can definitely see where Martin is going to go with TWIW and it definitely does not equate to him losing any sense of the plot.
The first three novels were fairly good about taking the events that occurred in each novel, and then handling the fallout from each relatively quickly before jumping to a new plot point.
Exactly, she acts like a complete fucking idiot in this book. What happened to the girl that tricked the slavers and had their dragons burn to death? She was a true dragon queen in SOS and ACOK, she's just a little stupid girl in ADWD.
Bleh, before she was fighting enemies, now she's trying to be a good ruler who DOESN'T resolve everything with fire & blood. And she doesn't listen to anything the others say because all the others say is
"open the fighting pits, kill them all, bring back slavery, let the other Free Cities have their way you don't need to care what they do, kill innocent children" and shit like that.
Still don't understand Dany hate. Her chapters were great with
her struggling against all the shit that comes her way, while wondering who might backstab her and how she would get out of all of it without resorting to allowing slavery again
. Also, I think Martin WANTED the people to feel frustrated while reading her chapters, that's why the
fighting pit chapter and the last Dany chapter are two of the best in the book.
This certainly isn't the worst book. It's not ASOS, but it's not the worst by any mean. I'd personally put it above AGOT & AFFC, maybe even on ~par with ACOK (or perhaps slightly worse, if only because
they should've at least had one big battle, instead we pretty much get to see the beginning of two (Others against wildlings & Wall and the Slavers against Meereen) and know the third is not too far away (Stannis vs. Bolton/Snow.
I wasn't mentioning serjant being off, just other words. I'm only 300 pages in but there have been two instances that I've come across. I'm not going to dig them up since I didn't flag them and it would take me time, just seemed strange that something so hyped and worked at for such a long time has flaws.
The first three novels were fairly good about taking the events that occurred in each novel, and then handling the fallout from each relatively quickly before jumping to a new plot point.
Not reading anything in this thread yet. About half way through and its been pretty brilliant so far. Realize i have forgot quite a bit from the last books so will do a re-read before the next book........... sooner rather than later i hope.
Damn i hope the TV show runs the course of the books, just imagining it all gets me giddy.
It's been a long time since I read all the books again, but I am willing to bet that there is grease reference in every book. Martin sure loves his food.
The first three novels were fairly good about taking the events that occurred in each novel, and then handling the fallout from each relatively quickly before jumping to a new plot point.
Yeah, but the overall fallout from the War of the Five Kings is much, MUCH bigger than what some smaller single events cause before it (or, rather, the smaller events don't get solved properly and they build up to cause MASSIVE problems later on, after all that rapin' and burnin' and pillagin' is done throughout Westeros). Plus AFFC & ADWD are not only used to show the fallout from the first trilogy, they are meant to also introduce a lot of new players for the game of thrones as well as set things into motion/in place for UPCOMING conflicts. The scale is a lot bigger than it was before so instead being able to do it all in one book like AGOT did, they needed more like 1.5 books than just 800 pages like AGOT (the plot DOES clearly start to move forward in the latter part of ADWD for POVs that had mostly been about set-up & world-building and whatnot before, for Meereen that starting point is the
fighting pit chapter, after that things start to move forward with quite the fast pace with Barristan seizing the king & starting war against the slavers, Quentyn plotting at freeing the dragons and Tyrion working on turning the Second Sons against their current Slaver employees. And the North stuff was moving forward for all of ADWD in a lot of different ways.
). You really need to read the book again if you try to claim nothing happens in it.
In A Game of Thrones, they could focus on building the conflicts mostly between just Starks & Lannisters (and whoever smaller houses came with them). AFFC showed how the war had raped the kingdoms and they added Dorne and the Iron Isles as well as started giving the faith of the seven a bigger role, not to even mention giving the Tyrells a more prominent role in King's Landing as well (not that they hadn't been before, but as things calmed down with the WotFK, they could start reaching for (even) more power @ King's Landing). ADWD shows the
aftermath of ASOS for Tyrion, after which he was a thoroughly broken being, it fleshes out Essos like no book has before it and focuses on what Stannis's arrival to the Wall causes to not only to the North, but for the Wall as well (all while Jon tries to do the humane thing of saving the wildlings from a common foe and getting shit because of it).
There's plenty that happens in ADWD.
Using whole books for build-up is an absolute waste of economy.
Have a beginning, middle, and an end.
Not a beginning, something in the middle, and then "blah" with the exception of one plot line.
No it's not, not where Martin is going. A Game of Thrones was essentially just build-up for the War of the Five Kings that didn't begin until A Clash of Kings. There happened a lot in it, but unless you're blind, a lot happens in ADWD too (Tyrion as an example) (
Tyrion first going with Illyrio's plan and figuring out Aegon's identity is one part, him getting captured and ending up as a slave is another, him being a slave and how it ends is the third. In much the similar way, him going to the wall in AGOT is one part of his journey in it, him being captured by Catelyn is the second and the first battle with Starks vs. Lannisters is the third).
The first three books were essentially about North vs. South, wildlings vs. Night's Watch and Daenerys coming to her own as a character (with a couple of wild cards like Arya just going about and ending up where they are now). Relatively simple to all that is happening/going to happen in AFFC through ADOS, where instead of just Starks vs. Lannisters, it's quite likely going to end up with a much more complex combination of
Tyrell vs. Lannister vs. the Faith of the Seven vs. Vale (they WILL enter the game sooner or later) vs. Dorne vs. Iron Isles vs. Dany vs. Oldtown/Citadel/the Maesters vs. Stannis vs. North(/Boltons) vs. Wildlings vs. the Others with real & make-believe alliances and all kinds of backstabbing between differnet factions, all while differend sides might have their own internal strifes + with some characters who are completely separate from everyone, atm (mostly Bran & Arya)
.
I still don't thing that you understand that, at this point, A Song of Ice & Fire is two "trilogies". The first trilogy ended with A Storm of Swords. After that, we entered a whole new phase where more people enter the game and the stakes are much higher. This new phase has to begin with a "new beginning" where, yes, the plot-advancement is a little less important and all that world-building etc. more important.
Really, I'd say AFFC & ADWD combined use about 1100-1200 pages for the kind of build-up AGOT used 800 for. The rest is for advancing the plot of Night's Watch/North/Bran/Arya for all of ADWD and starting to advance the plot in a quickening pace for Meereen POVs in the latter part of the book as well as having some POVs from AFFC making a come-back.
