Fuck worldbuilding, am I right? No. It's necessary. Westeros is a character just like any other. If you don't care about the lore of the world then you should jump ship right now.
I'm fine with worldbuilding, but it feels like he's trying to weave The Silmarillion into The Lord of the Rings.
I would be happy if he published an additional book some years down the road that goes through all of the history in detail. It was interesting at first to hear about all the history that predates the current story, but by the 3rd book I just wanted to know what happens to the characters I care about.
I'm fine with worldbuilding, but it feels like he's trying to weave The Silmarillion into The Lord of the Rings.
I would be happy if he published an additional book some years down the road that goes through all of the history in detail. It was interesting at first to hear about all the history that predates the current story, but by the 3rd book I just wanted to know what happens to the characters I care about.
We've only had two books with a lot of backstory. And that's probably all the books we need for it. Plus, are people forgetting that these are two halves of the same book
And an additional book at the end of the series would take out all the oomph of this backstory -- it is important to the narrative and understanding what is about to happen (and why).
I don't think so. If anything, this is exactly why people are complaining about the pacing. GRRM's plot has evolved to the point where he needs to use two books just to move the same story along, and the end of DwD didn't give any impression that the separate plot threads will be converging anytime soon.
Is it going to be like this for the next few books as well? That's a terrifying thought, and I've only recently started reading ASOIAF. I can't imagine what long-time fans must feel like.
It's overwhelming and it does feel like there's too much. I think people would be more forgiving of it if these books were not so long delayed. It'll be less of a deal in the years (hopefully not too many) that follow when more of the story unfolds.
I don't think so. If anything, this is exactly why people are complaining about the pacing. GRRM's plot has evolved to the point where he needs to use two books just to move the same story along, and the end of DwD didn't give any impression that the separate plot threads will be converging anytime soon.
Is it going to be like this for the next few books as well? That's a terrifying thought, and I've only recently started reading ASOIAF. I can't imagine what long-time fans must feel like.
I really doubt it will be like this in the future. We have all the backstory we need, and these two books are fantastic because they 1. have great writing 2. have awesome character chapters 3. huge gamechangers and 4. setup all the pieces for something incredible in TWOW.
It's far from a terrifying thought, though. Jesus. People really have an incredibly exaggerated reaction to these last two books...
I have full faith that TWOW will be just like ASOS in terms of plot pushing and epicness.
I really doubt it will be like this in the future. We have all the backstory we need, and these two books are fantastic because they 1. have great writing 2. have awesome character chapters 3. huge gamechangers and 4. setup all the pieces for something incredible in TWOW.
It's far from a terrifying thought, though. Jesus. People really have an incredibly exaggerated reaction to these last two books...
I have full faith that TWOW will be just like ASOS in terms of plot pushing and epicness.
I think he did a fantastic job with some of the world building, while other parts were weak. End of course,
Most important thing to note is that it was originally entitled Feast of Crows. Dance came separate from that and that is exactly what this book is. Part 2 of Crows. With Robb gone, there is no clear rally point now. Feast dealt with the South and Iron Islands. Giving life into those areas through introducing a lot of the small politics at work. Dance is the same exact thing for the North. The Wall, Winterfell, and the remnants of the Starks. You get insight into the forces that actually backed up Robb now. For the first time since the first men, There is not a Stark uniting the North. You have the remnants of the Ironborn, Night Watch, Boltons, and now, many of the smaller groups. We get to see ones that hate the Starks and ones that still support them. See how they move and what they will do. The importance of this is similar to Roose Bolton in Games and Clash. It builds up the characters and allows them to be a part of the Game of Thrones. Its not just the few major powers anymore, but even the smaller lords are getting into it. The play between rulers just become more interesting with it.
The free cities stuff too was great. It gave life to the habitats there, instead of just another stepping stone for Dany.
HOLY CRAP!!!! What an excellent chapter from start to finish. Janos Slynt thought that he was a badass......hahahaha, flop goes your head! Next up: Alliser Thorne. Jon is a champ and a true Stark.
I really doubt it will be like this in the future. We have all the backstory we need, and these two books are fantastic because they 1. have great writing 2. have awesome character chapters 3. huge gamechangers and 4. setup all the pieces for something incredible in TWOW.
It's far from a terrifying thought, though. Jesus. People really have an incredibly exaggerated reaction to these last two books...
I have full faith that TWOW will be just like ASOS in terms of plot pushing and epicness.
Still baffled at those who don't like Tyrion's chapter. I thought his last was one of the best in the novel. Penny is one of the most fascinating characters in the series due to her perspective as not only a commoner, but a dwarf commoner. Her appeal to Tyrion after Mormont hit him was a glimpse into a mindset that really hasn't been explored much until this book. Penny views herself as nigh worthless and is perfectly content to live as expected, not get in the way, and certainly not trouble The Big People. And yet her brief appeal describes the toil of all small people, regardless of height, caught in the middle of the game of thrones, and of winter.
Tyrion attempts to calm her by offering to play a game of the courts: come-into-my-castle. Quickly he realizes she would have no idea how to play. Him offering to play such a childish game made me wonder: did Tyrion even have friends as a child? He must have been shunned by the lordling children, and his sister tormented him, as did his brother to a lesser (but more damaging) extent. Even as a man he doesn't seem to have any friends. And here comes Penny, one of the few people in his life to seek him out not thinking of personal gain or mockery, but to seek his company. They couldn't be more different as people, yet compliment each other perfectly.
For the first time in the novel, Tyrion seemed truly happy. On his voyage with Griff he certainly had points of joy and humor, yet they were all undercut by his own insecurities, guilt, rage, etc. And now I fear all that will change, with this slaver ship on its way to take them all.
So far ALL the Northern chapters are great. Great atmosphere, and a shit ton of chess moves. The Essos chapters are improving now that the book is no longer throwing tons and tons of new names/characters at the reader. The characters around Dany have finally seemed to come to life; before it felt like a lot of repetition.
And I finally got to some AFFC resolution (remember, spoilers up to 543)
Loved the Areo Hotah chapter, but it's kind of confusing in a sense. Cersei's plot to murder Doran's son seems ridiculous, even for her; plus you'd think something that monumental would at least be hinted at in AFFC. Perhaps the information was fed to Doran to convince him to speed up his game. If it was Varys for instance, he would surely know Doran would respond to such news with a measured response. I just hope Nymeria has a POV in the next book.
Also I wonder what Doran's response will be when he learns of the chaos in King's Landing, Cersei's imprisonment, etc. Damn I really hope Hotah or Arianne have one more POV in this book, just to get a glimpse another glimpse at Doran.
So far ALL the Northern chapters are great. Great atmosphere, and a shit ton of chess moves. The Essos chapters are improving now that the book is no longer throwing tons and tons of new names/characters at the reader. The characters around Dany have finally seemed to come to life; before it felt like a lot of repetition.
And I finally got to some AFFC resolution (remember, spoilers up to 543)
Loved the Areo Hotah chapter, but it's kind of confusing in a sense. Cersei's plot to murder Doran's son seems ridiculous, even for her; plus you'd think something that monumental would at least be hinted at in AFFC. Perhaps the information was fed to Doran to convince him to speed up his game. If it was Varys for instance, he would surely know Doran would respond to such news with a measured response. I just hope Nymeria has a POV in the next book.
Also I wonder what Doran's response will be when he learns of the chaos in King's Landing, Cersei's imprisonment, etc. Damn I really hope Hotah or Arianne have one more POV in this book, just to get a glimpse another glimpse at Doran.
When Cersei is sending Balon Swann off, she thinks about he has another task he'll be performing, but it's best left a secret. I wonder how many people actually knew of the plot, because someone obviously tipped off Doran, so Cersei must have told a couple of people outside of just Balon.
I completely agree with Nymeria getting a POV in Winds.
When Cersei is sending Balon Swann off, she thinks about he has another task he'll be performing, but it's best left a secret. I wonder how many people actually knew of the plot, because someone obviously tipped off Doran, so Cersei must have told a couple of people outside of just Balon.
I completely agree with Nymeria getting a POV in Winds.
I'm gonna say this, just to keep people less rabid about the slow pacing of ADWD
at least, AT LEAST, you are not reading a Malazan novel or any other novel in the genre -- the Malazan books are notorious for taking out character perspectives for more than just one book -- no, sometimes, three or four go by and then someone comes back - and thus you are left with NO one to ever root before because they are in and out of the narrative like a needle going through yarn and producing shit.
Trust me when I say that when Martin is slowing down his writing pace, perhaps putting too much backstory, not enough action... he's still head and shoulders above everyone else in the genre.
I don't think so. If anything, this is exactly why people are complaining about the pacing. GRRM's plot has evolved to the point where he needs to use two books just to move the same story along, and the end of DwD didn't give any impression that the separate plot threads will be converging anytime soon.
No, he needed two books to set up all that needs to happen in the following books. That required a lot of world building (and figuring out how to get certain information to the reader while also moving certain characters to their "right" places) as a lot of new sides were introduced to the mix. From what Martin has told, we should now have pretty much all the factions there will ever be fighting for Westeros/whatever (or at least no new POVs), so he should now be able to actually DO a lot more with all these factions instead of just introducing the key players & and all of their motives.
And plenty of the storylines could be going down the same path really soon that were separate in the past. (I just spoilered these, just in case, some general spoilers of perhaps some characters from ADWD)
Dorne + Aegon (+ King's Landing), Iron Isles/Victarion + Dany + Tyrion, Arya could be tied to pretty much any character by having her have some assassination attempt somewhere, Sansa could come out of hiding and it could be tied to the Winterfell subplots (and/or Riverrun), Bran's could be converged with all that is going on in the North
and whatever surprising twists Martin has in store for us could bring many characters & storylines together in different ways that we can't anticipate (i.e. I don't think anyone anticipated Stannis would appear in the north before ASOS was released)
Asha's alive, and Stannis is an utter fool. The Werthead review mentioned the book included a nod to Napoleon's failed Russian invasion, so I knew this was coming yet still couldn't believe it as I read. I had hoped that Stannis' decision not to directly assault the Dreadfort was a sign of a more cautious man, in light of the Blackwater failure.
Now unless some miracle happens he's wasted a good deal of his army, again. Come on man, I wanted a battle. Or at least the promise of one in the future; Stannis had finally secured some support, had a nice sized army, etc.
I've been assuming for awhile that the girl Melisandre saw in her flames was Asha, and it seems even more likely now. If this is how Stannis goes out I'm gonna be disappointed as hell..
There's another Targaryen heir? I wonder how that's going to play out.
Also, I'm kind of amazed at how fast you guys are going through the book. I'm a fast reader, and I'm only at page 300. :lol Then again, I had a busy week: I can barely read one chapter a night before falling asleep.
Just got through the Chapter where Tyrion (after p.180)
realizes how big the Rhoyne really is, the ruins on its banks and ending with him gazing upon Nymeria's palace where an enormous, apparently legendary, turtle emerges. Martin has really outdone himself here. I've never felt this sense of wonder in a fantasy book since reading The Fellowship and the point where they reach the Mines of Moria.
Such a spectacular chapter filled with lore and great character interactions.
We've only had two books with a lot of backstory. And that's probably all the books we need for it. Plus, are people forgetting that these are two halves of the same book
And an additional book at the end of the series would take out all the oomph of this backstory -- it is important to the narrative and understanding what is about to happen (and why).
Back story is something that should never be the main focus.
With that said, I'm pretty profoundly disappointed in how ADWD turned out.
*Spoilers for the entire book*
I felt they rushed Bran's development, while barely teasing out Arya's development. She's still an apprentice, while it appears he's a full-on master.
I'm thinking Aegon is Ned Stark's true bastard son with Ashara Dayne. Note: I can also buy the alternate theory of Aegon being Brandon Stark's bastard son with Ashara Dayne.
WTF was that with Jon. He's probably not dead, or else we would have gotten confirmation like we got in Quentyn's case. Yet, Martin has left himself a literary mess up north. Wildlings, Night's Watch, and Queen's Men all fighting each other. There's no way Jon is keeping his command. Of that, I can be sure.
Anyway, he was probably the only character whose plot actually progressed, in this book. We got to see a POV character other than Tyrion be an effective leader. We also got to see the price that Jon paid for being an effective leader. Also, the Night's Watch is beyond tainted now. Killing two consecutive Lord Commander's in a row, Given the importance of numbers, I'm going to call #999, as the last commander of the Night's Watch.
As far as the rest of the North POVs, they were great, until they spent 400 pages stuck in a giant snow-storm from The Great Other. I don't think I needed 400 pages of stalled plot Martin, for what is in truth, a battle that is less relevant than Whispering Woods in the entire series. I could've used more Jon damn it!
Tyrion - piss boring chapters. I got the travelogue with Dany, I don't need travelogue version 2.0.
Quentyn - R.I.P., Hardly knew yea.
Barristan Selmy - Not as cool as I thought you would be.
Cersei - Oh my. The plot armor is strong with this one.
Daenarys - Still stuck in Mereen? Zzzz... We get to see her learn nothing, & not even meet all the people converging to her on Mereen. She's the one who should've been toasted, not Jon. At this point, GRRM is engaging in torture porn, not for the sake of being realistic, but for the purpose of being sadistic.
I'm gonna say this, just to keep people less rabid about the slow pacing of ADWD
at least, AT LEAST, you are not reading a Malazan novel or any other novel in the genre -- the Malazan books are notorious for taking out character perspectives for more than just one book -- no, sometimes, three or four go by and then someone comes back - and thus you are left with NO one to ever root before because they are in and out of the narrative like a needle going through yarn and producing shit.
Trust me when I say that when Martin is slowing down his writing pace, perhaps putting too much backstory, not enough action... he's still head and shoulders above everyone else in the genre.
Martin had a chance to craft the greatest fantasy series to date. Yes, even better than Lord of the Rings. He blew it with AFFC/ADWD. At this point, I would also rate the FIRST Farseer Trilogy* ahead of ASOIAF. While Martin is, no doubt, a great writer, I would also argue that the first Farseer Trilogy was well written as well, with one of the best endings I've ever read in any book. Plus, it had better plot management than ASOIAF seems to have now.
While I'm at it, I need to re-read Gene Wolfe's The Wizard Knight. I may need to slot that one above ASOIAF as well.
Martin's starting to lose the plot, like Jordan did. There's a chink in ASOIAF's armor.
*If someone is willing to argue that the second Farseer Trilogy has a Spiderman 3-like effect on the first trilogy, that is a valid viewpoint as well. However, I'm just going to ignore the second Trilogy's existence!
god this book is so amazing. I'm at pg 850 now and I'm seriously going to go through withdrawl at having no more Song of Ice and Fire til Winds of Winter.
I never realized how much this worldbuilding was necessary until I read this book. Now ever after The Free Cities/Slavers Bay/etc won't seem like one dimensional PLOT STRANDS that are so foreign and stuff and isn't slavery wrong. Bravo, Martin. You are the best of the genre.
Just a very brief comment after speeding through the book in 3 days and the entire series in a few weeks- Right after finishing the book, I was honestly a little let down. However, in the last few days, reading the discussion on the internet, re-reading some of my favorite chapters, and just letting the *the world* Martin has created kind of sink in, I'm getting the urge to read the whole book again, just savoring the language and the world this time, and not speeding through trying to get caught up on the plot.
I think Dance will get better every time I read it.
The fuck he has. What do you not understand about AFFC & ADWD being build-up for upcoming conflicts? Things can't just keep going on full steam ahead after what happened in ASOS.
AGOT isn't the fastest advancing fantasy book ever (the first 400-500 pages are really slow) but it's the basis of an awesome trilogy, same can and quite likely WILL happen with AFFC/ADWD and the rest of the books. AFFC & ADWD are build-up, TWOW is where things start to speed up and ADOS could be the ASOS of this "second ASOIAF trilogy"
And you're plain out wrong in Daenerys not learning anything in Meereen. (whole ADWD spoilers)
How the fuck is her struggles against the Slavers, Sons of Harpies etc. not good literature? Especially when it leads to her realization of how a dragon doesn't fucking plant trees, but is all about fire & blood. Yes, there's a bit too much teen drama in there (though, she IS a teen), but that's not the focus of her story at all, just one of the subplots of her chapters.
Martin's starting to lose the plot, like Jordan did. There's a chink in ASOIAF's armor.
You don't know where he's going with all this build-up, so no, until we get to Winds of Winter & A Dream of Spring, we can't say he's lost it. Besides, he HASN'T lost it. You don't understand these books if you think he has.
*If someone is willing to argue that the second Farseer Trilogy has a Spiderman 3-like effect on the first trilogy, that is a valid viewpoint as well. However, I'm just going to ignore the second Trilogy's existence!
Just a very brief comment after speeding through the book in 3 days and the entire series in a few weeks- Right after finishing the book, I was honestly a little let down. However, in the last few days, reading the discussion on the internet, re-reading some of my favorite chapters, and just letting the *the world* Martin has created kind of sink in, I'm getting the urge to read the whole book again, just savoring the language and the world this time, and not speeding through trying to get caught up on the plot.
I think Dance will get better every time I read it.
I agree with this. I am not the fastest reader, so it took me about 8-9 hours to get through the last 400 pages of the book in a marathon session yesterday. While I enjoyed reading the entire time, I was always looking ahead to see how much longer I had to the next chapter instead of actually taking the time to digest what was happening in the present. I can only imagine that it would have been worse if I had been waiting the entire 6 years (I started the series in October, and have only been waiting since January for ADWD).
When I read over the series again in a year or two, I think both AFFC and ADWD will be a lot better reads. Instead of being disappointed that Character X didn't progress as much as expected, I will just sit back and enjoy the narrative and world building.
I'm less than a hundred pages away from finishing this thing. By far the worst of all the books, my least favorite in any case. Maddeningly boring and moving at a snail's pace. Every chapter with Daenerys has been torture, and she used to be my favorite character. :| Actually a bunch of character chapters are just awful. This is what took GRRM 6 years to make? At least I didn't have to endure the wait like others have.
I'm less than a hundred pages away from finishing this thing. By far the worst of all the books, my least favorite in any case. Maddeningly boring and moving at a snail's pace. Every chapter with Daenerys has been torture, and she used to be my favorite character. :| Actually a bunch of character chapters are just awful. This is what took GRRM 6 years to make? At least I didn't have to endure the wait like others have.
I've never really been a fan of Dany chapters. Some of ASOS was alright, and the House of Undying was pretty damn cool, but other than that, Dany has always sucked. The stregnth of Martin as a writer has always been to play with your expectations. I was hopeful Dany would be at least alright in this book since so much of the plot revolves around her. Martin blew me away with how shitty she is. There were a couple cool moments here and there, but overall reading her was just painful.
Personally I like seeing Danytry her hand at ruling. The chapters initially suffer because she isn't surrounded by many people we know or care about, but as the political situation becomes more clear the chapters get better.
In many ways her chapters kind of mirror Jon's, in terms of leadership and ruling. Both attempt to do what is good for their people, and both have enemies inside and outside the walls they call home.
Personally I like seeing Danytry her hand at ruling. The chapters initially suffer because she isn't surrounded by many people we know or care about, but as the political situation becomes more clear the chapters get better.
In many ways her chapters kind of mirror Jon's, in terms of leadership and ruling. Both attempt to do what is good for their people, and both have enemies inside and outside the walls they call home.
Exactly, she acts like a complete fucking idiot in this book. What happened to the girl that tricked the slavers and had their dragons burn to death? She was a true dragon queen in SOS and ACOK, she's just a little stupid girl in ADWD.
Exactly, she acts like a complete fucking idiot in this book. What happened to the girl that tricked the slavers and had their dragons burn to death? She was a true dragon queen in SOS and ACOK, she's just a little stupid girl in ADWD.
Yep. I won't go into exact details since PD hasn't finished the book but I feel like this book's Dany is out of character and nothing like what she should have been based on her past actions.
15 year old girl loses one of her most trusted advisors, surrounds herself with fools and liars and falls in love with a mercenary and you all complain it's out of character
fuck your mary sue bullshit, it's called character development
Jorah leaving and Dany surrounding herself with people who are plotting to sabotage her while they kiss up to her. Varys is probably creaming himself. Dany is learning that she must rely on a wise counsel instead of doing inane shit on her own.
So far with respect to Dany, the only puzzling decision I see is (spoilers to 563)
Her refusing to open the fighting pits. Her slavery position is certainly hurting the city, but I'm not going to argue against that; it's well within character for her and could reap major benefits if she comes out of this conflict with some strength. But with the pits...she constantly frets about being seen as an outside conqueror, yet when given a chance to soften that image she refuses. It's such a small yet lucrative bone to throw to the people.
I loved the scene where she bathed and fed the refugees outside her walls. But even that highlights her giving out resources her own people/army needs, which could be seen as questionable. Dunno, seems like she's in an almost unwinnable situation. The city is being starved by sea and could be sieged by land, during which a rebellion could break out within the walls.
Jorah leaving and Dany surrounding herself with people who are plotting to sabotage her while they kiss up to her. Varys is probably creaming himself. Dany is learning that she must rely on a wise counsel instead of doing inane shit on her own.
Just finished it today. The Essos chapters were one my favourites. I was always intrigued by the free cities and their lands and learning more of them was amazing. The chapter on the Rhoyne where they see Nymeria's old palace was awesome.
Just finished reading it on the Kindle. It was awesome. Damn the cliffhanger at then ends! Now it's just five more years until The Winds of Winter.
I smiled a big smile when
The Blind Girl
chapter appeared because
arya is my favorite character and the timeline had for sure exceeded affc by that point.
I enjoyed this book a whole lot more than affcs, mainly because it features charas I like more, I suppose. I was always rooting for the North so I even liked the
asha and theon
chapters this time around.
also, Davos' chapters were really intriguing. His last chapter might've been my favorite in the book.
burn the whole fucking city to the ground, because she has a heart. Her constant struggle over all four books has been to either have a heart, or be true to her Targ lineage. And now, now she has realized that there's no hope. She MUST burn everything because that's the only route she has left, and it's killing her. It is slaughtering all of her memories... "I must not look back."...
lol @ this being the worst book in the series. Someone forgot about ACOK.
Not really a spoiler but wtf is up with the typos??? Also, seems to me so far that serjant is this books cuz heh (as in totally new introduction to the books vocab that gets used over and over).
I think Dany was placed in a situation without a clear winning answer. It was either abandon her people to slavery or face a giant coalition of cities who were adversely effected by her actions against the slave trade. I think this book shows more about the problems of her rash actions in Book 3 to try to conquer three cities without understanding the culture of these cities and how the world would respond.
Not really a spoiler but wtf is up with the typos??? Also, seems to me so far that serjant is this books cuz heh (as in totally new introduction to the books vocab that gets used over and over).
Oh fuck yes it is. ACOK, while it had the Battle of the Blackwater, was an incredibly dull transitional novel with none of the fantastic writing of AFFC/ADWD or any of the lorebuilding.
Definitely. Overall ACOK is better. You've got Tyrion's manuevering in King's Landing. The Battle of the Blackwater. The Riot in King's Landing. Arya's misadventures through the riverlands and the departure of Yoren. Time with the Mountain. Jaqen and the ghost and mouse of Harrenhal. The rise of Stannis. Renly's peach. Intro of Davos and Melisandre. Theon v Winterfell. Jon beyond the wall. Quorin Halfhand. Craster's Keep. Sansa and the Hound. Dany and the Undying (the fact that Dany only had 4 chapters in the book also helps). Catelyn's awesome final confrontation with Jaime. So much.
