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A gay Muslim perspective of Orlando massacre
- Thread starter beast786
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Messofanego
Banned
A Sinner In Mecca is a good documentary, this guy is very brave.
Homosexuality In Islam is a good academic book about how culture has infected religious thinking on this matter for so long that people have taken it as fact.
Homosexuality In Islam is a good academic book about how culture has infected religious thinking on this matter for so long that people have taken it as fact.
That's not how it works. Islam prohibits anal penetration, whether its between man-man or man-woman. "Being gay" does not automatically make someone non-Muslim. Anal penetration is a sin among a list of many, many sins, including paying/collecting interest, gambling, drinking alcohol, eating pork, backbiting, lying, stealing, adultery, murder, etc.
No person is free of sin, so are you implying that all Muslims (all of whom are sinful in one way or another) are "not technically Muslim" because they are not following their religion's teachings to the core letter? Many Muslims follow Islam as a guidebook and moral compass so they can evade these sins but humans, by nature, are imperfect, and any Muslim is bound to err along the way. The struggle and strive to be the best person one can be (internal jihad - or the spiritual struggle within one person to avoid sin)) is an integral concept.
Bel Marduk
Banned
Christianity is horrible toward gay people but Islam has far, far more enmity toward us.
I feel deeply sorry for any gay people who have had to grow up with this set of beliefs.
I feel deeply sorry for any gay people who have had to grow up with this set of beliefs.
Bel Marduk
Banned
In the more conservative Muslim countries, not only is being gay a serious crime but "apostasy" is as well, so gay Muslims can't even leave a faith with persecutes them. Its a horrible situation.
As an exmuslim it's literally like being in a closet. I live in USA and none of my family know about my apostasy.
What saved was exmuslim of North America . A community with people going through same issues and you can finally open up
Islam is not Christianity. In Islam There are major sins, lesser sins, sins which require capital punishment in order to be forgiven, sins which takes you straight to hell, etc.
I saw Jihad of Love ages ago, I need to check out his other documentary.
It is that bad in muslim countries, there is no skewed perspective, your life as a gay muslim is going to improve exponentially in the US, local homophobia and xenophobia included.
Christianity is not that far from Islam, the difference is that secularism has taken hold of most Christian countries, that's all there is to it. Even the "best" Pope we've had still condemns the use of condoms for instance. Secularism is in my eyes the only solution to the huge problem in Muslim countries regarding not only LGBT rights but also women rights.
It is that bad in muslim countries, there is no skewed perspective, your life as a gay muslim is going to improve exponentially in the US, local homophobia and xenophobia included.
Christianity is not that far from Islam, the difference is that secularism has taken hold of most Christian countries, that's all there is to it. Even the "best" Pope we've had still condemns the use of condoms for instance. Secularism is in my eyes the only solution to the huge problem in Muslim countries regarding not only LGBT rights but also women rights.
If it makes you feel any better, my family doesn't know that I am not a Christian anymore.. it's just not something you get around to telling the family. I should also note that my father is a pastor
BTW, since you're not a Muslim anymore, you should try some bacon. Delicious bacon!
Read my first comment in this thread, also "fuckers". The wording is dehumanizing.
Nathan_Drake
Member
Hi. This is a little late (I had the tab open but when on work travel) but I wanted to thank you for sharing your opinion. You write very well and it is great to hear opinions like this. I do hope that dialogue can one day help unite your community (Muslim). I was a Farsi and Urdu linguists for 10 years. I have had a glimpse into this world through my instructors and keeping up with the news but it is nothing like first-hand accounts.Good luck with your films and please write more when you feel it is relevant.
Monocle
Member
I think it's tragic that this guy, like so many others, allow his moral compass to be guided by a morally bankrupt system.
"Be gay if you want, but make sure to live a life of utter romantic and sexual repression. Congrats, you are now a Moral Person!"
Disgusting, unjust, and clearly not moral by any sensible standard.
"Religion of mercy..." What a horrible position to be in.
IISANDERII
Member
I meant in other Western countries, where there are fewer hate crimes and less racism.
Religious thinking IS culture. Culture cannot infect itself. Fundamentalists (constitutional, religious, etc.) are the ones who argue otherwise.
And believe it or not. Because of that they believe its more of a belief sin issue. Hence they try to cure it by becoming even more radaclize. Explain by gay muslim in this interview
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/06/20/sohail-ahmed-camerota-intv-newday.cnn
So he arrived at this viewpoint based on an encounter in Saudi Arabia of all the countries or in a mosque where there was a known extremist or sympathizer Imam? I'm not very knowledgeable about Islam and am barely scraping by doing the bare minimum. In the same vein, all the mosques I have gone to, I have never come across any sort of sympathizing in fact they explicitly denunciate any and all of the attacks.
Also why is he choosing to follow and practice a religion which he himself thinks is not peaceful? There are other religions whose image is more peaceful like Buddhism etc.
Also why is he choosing to follow and practice a religion which he himself thinks is not peaceful? There are other religions whose image is more peaceful like Buddhism etc.
I feel pretty uncomfortable when I see non-muslims try to discuss issues with Islam. I think this firmly needs to stay an intra-community issue that's discussed within our circles (that includes Ex-muslims, queer muslims, conservatves etc.). There's a lack of nuance that is very clear when non-muslims try to approach this topic. Even in this thread alone I'm seeing people telling us how to interpret Islam, that our interpretations are wrong, that doing so and so makes you leave the fold of Islam etc.
South Asian and MENA Muslims hold onto Islam in a very different way than religious people do in western countries. It's more than your religion, it is your identity. It is your community. And unfortunately it gets mixed into your culture, into your politics, into your ideology. Also considering that the majority of these countries were colonized, Islam is something that to them is inherently anti-western. And homosexuality is seen as "western."
Not to mention that our cultures are communal. We don't get married to "people," we marry families. Telling your parents you are gay is like telling them you are throwing away all their traditions for the sake of being western. It's a complicated issue.
And not to be condescending, it's not something you can understand unless you have experienced it. Just by mentioning these surface level examples, and trust me it goes much deeper than that, it's very difficult to have a conversation with someone who doesn't see the whole picture.
(I'm not trying to shut down the conversation or anything, just saying there is more to consider than saying "ISLAM NEEDS REFORM" because that is very simplistic way to look at a very large deep issue)
South Asian and MENA Muslims hold onto Islam in a very different way than religious people do in western countries. It's more than your religion, it is your identity. It is your community. And unfortunately it gets mixed into your culture, into your politics, into your ideology. Also considering that the majority of these countries were colonized, Islam is something that to them is inherently anti-western. And homosexuality is seen as "western."
Not to mention that our cultures are communal. We don't get married to "people," we marry families. Telling your parents you are gay is like telling them you are throwing away all their traditions for the sake of being western. It's a complicated issue.
And not to be condescending, it's not something you can understand unless you have experienced it. Just by mentioning these surface level examples, and trust me it goes much deeper than that, it's very difficult to have a conversation with someone who doesn't see the whole picture.
(I'm not trying to shut down the conversation or anything, just saying there is more to consider than saying "ISLAM NEEDS REFORM" because that is very simplistic way to look at a very large deep issue)
below is the interview of loved western moderate islamic scholar hamza yousuf on CNN. How can you start a conversation when the other side believes being gay is choice, its a sin. They cant even see how traumatic it is to the individual in that community. The last answer was the worst. " I was celebate for few years"... wtf does that even mean.
Q: What about gay Muslims, though?
A: Look, I don't have the power to issue papal decrees. We don't have that type of structure in our tradition. But I have studied the tradition, and the vast majority of Muslims would never accept the lawfulness of an active homosexual lifestyle. I don't see that happening. But there is also no authority in the tradition for any individual to take things into his own hands and impose their version of the religion on someone else.
Q: Why can't Muslim teachings on homosexuality change? Is it because the Quran, which is considered the inerrant word of God, condemns it?
A: The Quran is pretty explicit in its condemnation of the act, and we have a long tradition of jurisprudence that defines it as unlawful. But there were also fatwas permitting people who had those attractions to relieve themselves so they wouldn't fall into active engagement. There's an awareness that this is a real human urge.
I definitely have sympathy for people who are struggling. I've met with young Muslims who have told me about their struggles. But I'm not sure they want our sympathies; they want full recognition of their lifestyle, and my religion tells me that I can't accept that. But I can't -- and won't -- impose my beliefs on others, either verbally or otherwise. I'm not going to judge people.
Q: What do you say when gay Muslims tell you about their struggles?
A: I say that I'm not going to deny your experience but my recommendation is not to actively engage in behavior outside of what is permitted in the religion. I know that people can live celibate lives, I did it myself for many years.
I don't know man lmao I've been trying for years. I've read that interview before and it was appalling. The worst offender has to be Yasir Qadhi he will not shut up about gay people and is acting like his right to hate us is the same as us calling him out.
I've found solace in finding and cultivating my own queer community of Muslims. Like we all want to stay Muslim but we recognize that mainstream might not ever accept us. And a few straight ally muslims are joining us too. I'm not really hopeful that scholars will ever change their views (especially considering how homogeneous they all are; male, Arab/Desi, studied in the Middle East etc.), but I think a lot more Muslims in the middle side with us a lot more often than not now. Maybe I'm just being optimistic.
Permanently A
Junior Member
You can have gay Christians because Christianity is pretty lax in term of variety of interpretations and how to the letter you follow the Bible. But it's not that way in Islam, at least from what I've seen in the community I grew up in as an ex-Muslim. "Gay Muslim" will never be accepted just as "Muslim who likes bacon" or "Alcoholic Muslim" are not. Note that I'm not saying Muslims don't sin, I'm saying the acceptance of sin is unheard of and will never happen as long as Muslims believe the Koran is the direct will and message of Allah.
Really depends on what Christian denomination you belong to, I imagine. Catholicism is explicitly against homosexuality, I imagine the majority of Southern Baptists would be too. I know Lutherans are split on the issue.
Permanently A
Junior Member
Right, what I'm saying is there are tons of different Christian sects and I'm sure there is at least one that doesn't condemn homosexuality. It's not the same in Islam. You've got your Sunni and Shia and that's about it for majority accepted Muslim denominations. Hell the infighting between Sunni and Shia is so intense just over caliphate debate. Can you imagine if someone tried to make a denomination of Islam that actively contradicted the Koran?
The bible has a much more literal condemnation of homosexual activity than the Qur'an. The Qur'an literally doesn't have much to say about it other than a few references to Prophet Lot, and even then that story can hardly be compared to modern views of homosexuality, considering that group of people was you know... a bunch of thieving murdering rapists.
So technically the Qur'an literally has the least to say about homosexual activity. And it shows in our history considering how from the 8th-13th century in Muslim countries men being attracted to younger beardless men was seen as entirely normal thing. Having sex with them was even more common. Abu-Nawas was considered a staple of Islamic poetry and his poems regularly talked about having sex with with men. The Ottomon Empire was the first *western* country to decriminalize homosexuality in the early 1900s.
Our history has always been a lot more open and accepting of homosexuality than it is in it's current form. It's only in the past 200 years that our views of gender/gender relations became more... Victorian.
Permanently A
Junior Member
This is just the result of a quick Google search as I haven't read the Koran in years, but this site seems to give enough quotes condemning homosexuality. It's nothing on the level of the Bible, but it's enough to consider "gay Muslim" an oxymoron.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
That website is anti-Islam propaganda lmao.
Those quotes are specifically about a group of people who were trying to rape Lot's "guests" (who are angels in the guise of men). The story is a weird one to use to condemn homosexuality because if all these men were gay... why would they go to Lot and try to get his guests? They could have just had sex with each other? There's clearly a power dynamic here that these people were trying to enforce. The typical Torah explanation of the story lines up with Qur'anic interpretations as well; that the people of Lot raped guests and travelers as a way to humiliate them.
Not to mention the translations they are using are so self serving lol.
I don't want to blame colonization entirely but it definitely played a large part. I remember reading a few articles that said that when the British colonizers came to these countries the thing they found the most disgusting was that Muslims were very open about sex and sexuality.
Agreed.
Furthermore, the translations they're using (Yusuf Ali's) was heavily favoured by Saudi clerics decades ago and used to be widespread. That translation is the one were the "Two men" line comes from in Surah 4:16.
The most common modern translations are Muhsin Khan's, followed by Sahih International, especially in the West.
Point being, the Quran is vague enough to the point where there are numerous books written about such specific details, covering a variety of opposing views. Even then, there's no mention of death penalty for homosexuality, unlike some of the Hadith compilations. Much of the Hadiths need a overhaul though, as they are steeped in medieval-Arabic social norms.
Qadri and hamza are bob western scholar . Like you said the effect of culture takes big part in interpretation . So those two western scholars are probably most moderate given where they preach. Now imagine what's happening in rest of Muslim country and how far are they.
That being said , as an exmuslim you my full support regardless if you identify yourself as Muslim or not.
You can't really blame the colonization because after the British left the government made the punishment worse. Death penalties for homosexuality in Muslim countries are all after British left.
You and I also know , that when it comes to literalism . You can't compare bible , especially the Old Testament to Quran , when it comes to how Christian and Muslims precieve there books. Quran is word to word work of God . Not making excuse for Christianity but they went through its reformation to take that authority away. Islam hasn't .
As it comes to scripture support in Quran and Hadith , you don't have to go to anti Islamic sites. There are plenty of Islamic sites that can make the case with Quran , Hadith, tasfir , sunnah etc
https://www.al-islam.org/greater-si...dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy
Regardless I have your back in this issue
Permanently A
Junior Member
What are you discussing here ?
Homosexually is sin or death for it?
And if you think Hadith needs overhaul because of its midevil origins, how is that any different than Quran ? It also has those Orgin hence slavery , multiple wife's, women inheritance , women testimony , homosexuality , pork etc
I'm assuming you mean Christianity within the West, because outside of it, that type of reformation did not happen; look no further than some African Christian states for proof.
Because the Hadiths are what bridges the Quranic values to many Muslims; modern interpretations (new Hadiths) would help "liberalize" various Muslim communities.
Those Hadiths are used to conflate sin (transgression) with death, hence why I made that point.
Christianity is spread to those African state via evangelical . The conservative group that takes bible literal like Quran . But poll shows overall that is not the case. And I know you already know that.
I do not; source?
Man I support your hopefulness . I always will support progressive Muslim like yours. But as long as the original doctrine is in refutable . I think you won't be that successful in long term. The turning point in Christianity was the challenge of bible as word of God. And just like among Muslim. Those who do are the problems. But , how can you change that view? What's your idea about it
I don't understand why he not just quit Islam if he like to keep his gay identity. Islam reject him so its not worth it to stay in something that reject him.
I'm an muslim if I had gay son I'd told him to quit islam because islam not respect him so he had no need to respect it either and chase his own happiness.
I'm an muslim if I had gay son I'd told him to quit islam because islam not respect him so he had no need to respect it either and chase his own happiness.
USA is considered one of most religious state in west.
http://archives.politicususa.com/2011/07/09/poll-bible-literally.html And even here just 3/10.
You can look up individual countries like Aussie etc.
I believe the crux of our discussions in recent threads revolves around the notion that the Quran is the word of god, hence it is absolute in its authority. I've mentioned this earlier, but I view it merely as a spiritual guide to life, not an absolute declaration or a "be-all and end-all" proposition. This is evidenced by the existence of secular and liberal Muslims. Taking such scriptures literally in day-to-day applications is a ridiculous approach and can never work in pluralistic societies, like those in the West and throughout Asia/Africa. Check out the Liberal Muslim movements for even further readings on such topics.
I hail from a Wahhabi and Hanafi background, but I am a non-denominational Muslim. My mother would argue and rage at me being critical of Islamic scriptures, especially the Hadiths and the cult of Worship fellow Muslims have built around the Prophet Mohammed and the Sunnah in general. Over the course of a few years, I've gotten her down to the point where she'll actually consider my criticisms and even agree with me occasionally! I've gotten into a verbal spat with an Imam and some fellow Muslims once at a mosque; his sermons were needlessly vindictive and harsh, especially towards LGBT folks. Though I'm not a cleric, moderates like me attempt to bridge the gap by striving to improve the faith rather than outright abandoning it (that doesn't benefit Muslims like me on a spiritual level, nor the one being discussed in the OP), but this takes time and there will be no dramatic and/or accelerated attitude shifts in predominately Orthodox Islam anytime soon (especially outside the West).
My laser focus on most of the Hadith is attributed to the fact that those are recognized as being written and inscribed by ancient scholars who were steeped in Arabic tribalism and fatalism; the Quran ushered in the rights for women and the destitute in a society where none existed, but the scholars did not go far enough in enhancing those rights during the development of Islamic jurisprudence and instead cast away ijtihad (independent reasoning) in favour for taqlid (extreme adherence to Sunnah). Consequently, I believe Islamic communities have stagnated as a result of their pursuit for "purity" or basically mimicking the Prophet and his companions. As such, I am a strong proponent for Islam to re-embrace ijtihad (independent reasoning) and for Muslims to critically view the Prophet for what he was: a mortal with all the trappings and faults of a human, but one who was deemed worthy enough to spread the revelations of god (Islam). He is the messenger, nothing more and nothing less; the concept of Sunnah is foolish and is essentially idolatry in nature. By embracing these these two initiatives, this will pave way for further expansion of womens' rights and that of minorities as well.
Agreed, these are issues that need to be worked out within our communities, but sadly I doubt it'll ever be allowed to happen. People enjoy the anti-religion hate train too much, and the general ignorance regarding Islam/culture plus the constant bad PR don't help much.
It sucks that you find those responses appalling since I think they're the best possible responses that still remain honest, and I don't sense any hate in them since they're just explaining the way the religion works. As uncomfortable as it makes some people feel, the best/ideal response people will get from those who are honestly religious and educated is tolerance, which is the position those scholars and most educated western Muslims seem to hold. Though from my experience, most people have forgotten what tolerance actually means and just use it as a nice sounding buzz word, since what they actually want is total acceptance/conformity which I don't see happening within devout Muslim circles.
Red Liquorice
Member
Of course it's up for personal interpretation - all religions are, that's why there's more than just one faction, one version of each religion, they're all splintered and have differing believes. And that's because at some point, someone had a different interpretation and got enough traction with others who agreed to carry it forward.
And as for the literal word of God, the Quran like the Bible and all other religious texts has been altered, edited, redacted, rejigged throughout time - it does not exist now in it's original form - it does not. Religions change, often slowly, sometimes quickly and violently, but they change and Islam is absolutely no different, it does not exist in a vacum - hell if we wanted to look at it that way Christianity and Islam are just off-shoots of Judaism any way, so right from their very inception they are not literally the word the god, they are a reinterpretation and collection of corrections and amendments to an already existing ideology, and have never stopped changing and being amended right up to the present day.
The Emperor
Member
I think India definitely falls into that zone in some respects. I am gay and was brought up as a hindu (not religious though), but in my conflict with family regarding lgbt stuff I decided to research about hinduism and homosexuality! Came across this informative piece on hinduism and same sex marriage
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5650
Apparently Ancient Hindu scriptures have specific words for bisexual woman, bi man, gay man, gay woman, third gender. In fact society was seen as having three parts, the cis straight male, cis straight female and the 'third variety' (basically what is today lgbt). The kama sutra has loads of same sex parts within it and once again same sex relations are discussed in a very 'this is just how things are fashion). In ancient caves within India you also see depictions of same sex female and male
lovers.
India's colonisations by the mughals and then imperial colonisation I believe changed a lot of the cultural views on lgbt stuff! Of course you can argue there was really no 'india' then, it was a land mass held together by different factions. But within a lot of the country hinduism was the major form of religion.
Of course it aint all sugar and rainbows. Some hindu sects believe heavily in the dharma parts of the teachings where raising a family is essential (a lot of these a people refuse to accept you can have a family as a homosexual person)
A lot of how we view the past is based on how our template of what today is like. To see some ancient societies as more open and liberal is interesting.
I have a Hindu background and the cultural views I have experienced on homosexuality are truly frightening. Even from extremely well educated people who I know have lived abroad for ages. My parents (who are both scientists) in their desperate attemps to 'change me from being gay' asked a psychiatrist who works here in the UK bout homosexuality and he said:
'White parents don't care about their children and can't be bothered about them and so let their children stay gay! Homosexuality is not normal, make sure your son understands this'
I felt like reporting his ass to the GMC (General Medical Council...an organisation that oversees the quality of the medical practice delivered within the UK).
But essentially he sums a up a lot of what I see in terms of views regarding homosexuality in Indians.
'It is a western import, nothing to do with us! Doesn't happen in our society'
So frustrating!!!! Anyway sorry I needed to vent all that out!
This article was amazing and I want to go on to watch his short films!!!
It is really great to see some Islamic lgbt representation! In one of the cities in the uk there is a south asian lgbt group! I spent a month in that city and just loved the group as you could really talk about a lot of the cultural difficulties which are rather unique to some of us 😂😂😂!!
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The Everyman
i would argue that prohibiting anal penetration is prohibiting being gay.
Lev
Member
Yesterday, I had a conversation with some family who I managed to get them to admit that they are perfectly fine with Gay people getting executed for breaking sodomy laws in Muslim nations. Their response to me was predictable since Islamic scripture backs the idea of death for sodomy. So instead, I tried to get them understand the perspective of a gay or lesbian who has to live in a Muslim country where people want you dead, but of course they refused to consider such an idea and just told me that being gay isn't "natural". Some of my family members are telling me with a straight face that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion even though they want to kill gays for committing sodomy or people who commit apostasy under Muslim lands. And these people are suppose to be "moderate" Muslims. How are you suppose to reason with such people when they are completely indoctrinated and are unwilling to consider different perspectives because they think their religion is right? Also, how is this a religion of peace if they cannot tolerate to live with people who are different than them?
That's why I think the world needs to stand up against Islam and not tolerate this shitty excuse of a religion. Islam is the next bad idea that the world needs to purge, like we mostly did with nazism and fascism. By stand up, I mean that we need to consistently criticize Islam for what it actually is and not make excuses for Muslims who behave badly when they are simply following what their religion tells them to do. What I really hate the most is Muslims who demand respect from the West to respect their religion and beliefs when they don't do the same to non-Muslims or heterosexual people in their Muslim countries. How bloody hypocritical of them! And anyway they need to realize that respect isn't a right; it needs to be earned!
That's why I think the world needs to stand up against Islam and not tolerate this shitty excuse of a religion. Islam is the next bad idea that the world needs to purge, like we mostly did with nazism and fascism. By stand up, I mean that we need to consistently criticize Islam for what it actually is and not make excuses for Muslims who behave badly when they are simply following what their religion tells them to do. What I really hate the most is Muslims who demand respect from the West to respect their religion and beliefs when they don't do the same to non-Muslims or heterosexual people in their Muslim countries. How bloody hypocritical of them! And anyway they need to realize that respect isn't a right; it needs to be earned!
Lev
Member
Indeed it does. And what I said is true: the penalty for sodomy is death. You can't deny it. It's part of your religion.
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