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[Madouu]

I agree with a lot of what orochi has said in the thread.

In my experience, religious discussion of foods and scientific/nutritional/health/etc. discussions of food have absolutely nothing to do with each others. The former is amusing and absurd to me, the latter obviously isn't.

The health aspect is generally the first thing that comes up when dicussing food in a religious context. And believe me, we talk about food a lot during this month.

 

[kurisu2001]

nor is that concern about Muslim beliefs becoming mainstream in the West even substantiated.
.

It is though. Have you read Submission, or seen reports about ad campaigns being taken down because they show too much skin, swimming pool segregation because women want to swim with special clothing without people (even other women) in swimsuits being near.

Not saying they are not allowed to be offended, or not have the right to swim the way they want... but it can be seen as intolerant.

 

[beast786]

I see that you just couldnt help but snoop in the Ramadan thread. How pathetic. You just cant let Muslims go can you. Now you want to police what Muslims want to discuss in their own freaking thread. Discussing what to eat and what not to eat is a huge part of Muslim faith. The thread is Ramadan and fasting related and of course food will be a huge part of it. Cool your jets and mind your own business. Or did you get tired of making your own threads that you lurk in Muslim specific threads to laugh at them?

Lol what the fuck is this? Are fucking serious?

Where the fuck did I say what they can or can't discuss in Ramadan thread? Stop fucking playing victim card at every chance you sound pathetic.

I can post even in Ramadan thread. It's not off limit to any discussion , you can't police any discussion stop fucking trying to bully me or other in what we can or can't talk about. Get this through your head that ideas can be question and challenged . As long as I am within topic I can discuss anything about it. Does it hurt your feeling that I can express and discuss Islam without you trying to control that conversation ?

 

[Red Liquorice]

Actually they have found an especially ancient copy of the Quran that is almost the same as the one in use today.

Well I'm convinced.

 

[Madouu]

Lol what the fuck is this? Are fucking serious?

Where the fuck did I say what they can or can't discuss in Ramadan thread? Stop fucking playing victim card at every chance you sound pathetic.

I can post even in Ramadan thread. It's not off limit to any discussion , you can't police any discussion stop fucking trying to bully me or other in what we can or can't talk about. Get this through your head that ideas can be mocked and challenged .

Your earlier commentary was classless and uncalled for, what does someone's eating habits - something that is very much personal - have to do with their views on gay people for example? It shows a lack of nuance in the understanding of the grand spectrum that is the muslim people, especially here on gaf where I expect more liberal views to be much more represented.

I fast, I do not eat pork and yet if you read my first post in this thread you can clearly see that I have nothing but the utmost love and respect for the LGBT community. I fight openly for their rights to be respected and I live in a muslim country. If you went by the same assumptions you showed yourself to believe in, in the aforementioned post, you would've probably labelled me as someone that is "not ok with lbgt sex" to quote your own words which would be utterly wrong.

 

[RustyNails]

Lol what the fuck is this? Are fucking serious?

Where the fuck did I say what they can or can't discuss in Ramadan thread? Stop fucking playing victim card at every chance you sound pathetic.

I can post even in Ramadan thread. It's not off limit to any discussion , you can't police any discussion stop fucking trying to bully me or other in what we can or can't talk about. Get this through your head that ideas can be question and challenged . As long as I am within topic I can discuss anything about it. Does it hurt your feeling that I can express and discuss Islam without you trying to control that conversation ?

Bully you? It seems like you're the one who is bothered by what we're discussing in the Ramadan thread! You are the one giggling in your own thread about what others are discussing in Ramadan thread! And I'm the pathetic one? If you want to add something to the discussion, go ahead and post it in that thread!

 

[Kinitari]

Your earlier commentary was classless and uncalled for, what does someone's eating habits - something that is very much personal - have to do with their views on gay people for example? It shows a lack of nuance in the understanding of the grand spectrum that is the muslim people, especially here on gaf where I expect more liberal views to be much more represented.

I fast, I do not eat pork and yet if you read my first post in this thread you can clearly see that I have nothing but the utmost love and respect for the LGBT community. I fight openly for their rights to be respected and I live in a muslim country. If you went by the same assumptions you showed yourself to believe in, in the aforementioned post, you would've probably labelled me as someone that is "not ok with lbgt sex" to quote your own words which would be utterly wrong.

Well the original point that beast was making was that this idea that Muslims can be flexible about their religion seems counter intuitive when you see how dogmatic they can be about what they eat.

I personally always argue against baseless, illogical positions on food consumption on GAF, and to be honest I do often think about the overly restrictive nature of just eating while Muslim.

That being said... yeah, I don't think the Ramadan thread is a thread that is private, even from people you don't want to read. I think very poorly of Islam, and sometimes I go into Muslim specific threads to read, because it's fascinating in a weird way to me. I guess it would be 'classless' for me to make a joke about the weird eating habits of Muslims in that thread, even as an ex Muslim... but why? Where does that line get drawn?

If there was an 'all natural eating' thread, I would read the shit out of it and probably make a few jokes here or there. Why not an Islamic thread though? I guess it's too weird for me, but I think deep down, I can respect someone who isn't afraid of that feeling, who doesn't give a religion any more respect than... organic food eaters.

 

[beast786]

Bully you? It seems like you're the one who is bothered by what we're discussing in the Ramadan thread! You are the one giggling in your own thread about what others are discussing in Ramadan thread! And I'm the pathetic one? If you want to add something to the discussion, go ahead and post it in that thread!

You telling me what and where I can post. That is definition of either bullying or playing a mod. I didn't just giggle . It was a point at how to the dot people follow the religious scripture. Funny the person I was talking to understand the point I was making and replied back to make his own point. That is how discussions work. Also that was the first post you made in this thread, nothing with the topic but an attack on me,

Again, where the fuck did I say I was bothered by what's being discussed in Ramadan thread?

 

[beast786]

Your earlier commentary was classless and uncalled for, what does someone's eating habits - something that is very much personal - have to do with their views on gay people for example? It shows a lack of nuance in the understanding of the grand spectrum that is the muslim people, especially here on gaf where I expect more liberal views to be much more represented.

I fast, I do not eat pork and yet if you read my first post in this thread you can clearly see that I have nothing but the utmost love and respect for the LGBT community. I fight openly for their rights to be respected and I live in a muslim country. If you went by the same assumptions you showed yourself to believe in, in the aforementioned post, you would've probably labelled me as someone that is "not ok with lbgt sex" to quote your own words which would be utterly wrong.

It's a classes commentary ? that person who can not even eat m&m because of red coloring ingredient will accept homosexuality and anal sex and think it's ok? When someone is that adhere to word of scripture , can or will ignore that homosexuality and anal sex are immoral? You can't see the point?

So you do think being lbgt and anal sex is ok?

 

[kurisu2001]

It's a classes commentary ? that person who can not even eat m&m because of red coloring ingredient will accept homosexuality and anal sex and think it's ok? When someone is that adhere to word of scripture , can or will ignore that homosexuality and anal sex are immoral? You can't see the point?

So you do think being lbgt and anal sex is ok?

I agree with almost all your posts, but I also am not keen on red M&M's because they contain coloring made from bugs, and I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons.

Yet I think my reasoning is still more sound, because why oppose eating these small bugs but be fine with lamb or beef, except from a faith (ie not a rational) perspective.

To be clear: I am totally fine with whatever two consenting adults put in each other's body regardless of sex or orifice.

 

[RK9039]

Well I'm convinced.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082984

 

[KmA]

Lmao this thread is exactly why I am so uncomfortable discussing things that pertain to my identity. We have Ex-Muslims telling us that our characterization of Islam is wrong and it's not up to interpretation... umm ok

"It is God who has sent down to you the book: In it are verses clear (muhkamat), they are the foundation of the book, others are unspecific (mutashabihat)."[6] (Quran 3:7)

God literally tells us that not everything is literal in the Qur'an!!! I need people to stop accusing us of not knowing our religion, it's highly condescending. Not to mention the Qur'an is 3% rules. The rest is vague. On purpose.

And then we have straight Muslims telling queer Muslims how to live our lives. Stop suggesting celibacy or whatever. Like... how we live seriously doesn't concern you we can figure it out ourselves.

And then there are straight people saying anal sex is necessary component of being gay??? Have you heard of lesbians? Stop sexualizing us lol. Not to be a bitch but this conversation should be about ME (lgbt muslims) and people like me. Our perspective should be the most important because this discussion is about our fucking lives, we aren't some theory that you can implant your views on.

 

[Kurdel]

I mean, a lot of muslims think Shia aren't even muslims, I can't imagine what they think about liberal muslims in the west.

 

[Kinitari]

Lmao this thread is exactly why I am so uncomfortable discussing things that pertain to my identity. We have Ex-Muslims telling us that our characterization of Islam is wrong and it's not up to interpretation... umm ok

"It is God who has sent down to you the book: In it are verses clear (muhkamat), they are the foundation of the book, others are unspecific (mutashabihat)."[6] (Quran 3:7)

God literally tells us that not everything is literal in the Qur'an!!! I need people to stop accusing us of not knowing our religion, it's highly condescending. Not to mention the Qur'an is 3% rules. The rest is vague. On purpose.

And then we have straight Muslims telling queer Muslims how to live our lives. Stop suggesting celibacy or whatever. Like... how we live seriously doesn't concern you we can figure it out ourselves.

And then there are straight people saying anal sex is necessary component of being gay??? Have you heard of lesbians? Stop sexualizing us lol. Not to be a bitch but this conversation should be about ME (lgbt muslims) and people like me. Our perspective should be the most important because this discussion is about our fucking lives, we aren't some theory that you can implant your views on.

From the perspective of this ex Muslim at least, it's all up for interpretation. The problem is how easy and opportune it is to interpret it in terrible ways.

In the end, to me, it's all... make believe, anyway. That's the hugely frustrating and maddening part. You're a gay Muslim and you struggle and fight for your identity in your religion, and only a small minority of the religious accept you. For a religion that, if only read in the absolutely most ideal light, does not condemn you sexuality, just your actions pertaining your sexuality.

You can argue till you're blue in the face, and I'm blue in the face about the right interpretation of Islam - but does it matter? Will God make a post and correct us? In the end all that matters is what we take from the book, what impression it leaves on the earth. Not what we think, that if the stars align, it could mean.

Why fight so hard for that? I guess you have to believe in the Islamic faith. Although sometimes, the line between being a believer and letting go of the religion is superficial - a feeling of obligation or guilt. Or sometimes fear.

Life is just so much easier when that oppressive and senseless obligation is lifted off your shoulders. At least it was for me.

 

[afternoon delight]

Life is just so much easier when that oppressive and senseless obligation is lifted off your shoulders. At least it was for me.

I'd quote your whole post but that seems redundant, many gay ex-christians I know felt the exact same way- they escaped the burden of judgement and subjugation and embraced a more loving, more honest, and much happier existence.

As a person who escaped the stranglehold of southern US baptists, I find it sardonically funny how churches are attempting to reconcile their books with evolving majority opinions. It'd be more funny and a lot less sad if the associated violence ceased.

 

[RustyNails]

You telling me what and where I can post. That is definition of either bullying or playing a mod. I didn't just giggle . It was a point at how to the dot people follow the religious scripture. Funny the person I was talking to understand the point I was making and replied back to make his own point. That is how discussions work. Also that was the first post you made in this thread, nothing with the topic but an attack on me,

Again, where the fuck did I say I was bothered by what's being discussed in Ramadan thread?

You obviously concerned about the discussion in the Ramadan thread about red m&m's, that's why you're lurking and bringing it up here. You dont HAVE to say you're bothered to show your disdain. You're free to post wherever you want, and welcome to post in Ramadan thread if you like. Lurking a thread where you obviously have no intention to post and then shitting it elsewhere in your own thread is not a show of confidence. It seems like your resentment of Islam has overflowed your mind and you cannot sanction any inter-religious discussion within Islamic thought without being flippant. Just...let go, I guess? I mean for an ex-Muslim you should know by now that Food is an absolutely a critical aspect in Islamic life and you must be careful about what your body consumes, whether its dye made from bugs, cross contaminated meat or what have you. It's a huge deal! So let people have their discussions without being called out? I'm sorry that a religion has dietary rules and its adherants are discussing ways to abide by it in a thread that's literally about eating (and not eating) food. I mean what did you expect? Did you want people there to be discussing their favorite ponies? Did you want the thread to be discussing about issues YOU want? What would it take from us to satisfy YOU, so that you dont call us out from our Ramadan thread? If people talking about food in a food related thread triggers you then stop going there, or be confident enough to post and discuss with them. I dont have anything to add to this thread, thats why I dont post here. Or do you want me to engage in a discussion on your terms again?

 

[KmA]

From the perspective of this ex Muslim at least, it's all up for interpretation. The problem is how easy and opportune it is to interpret it in terrible ways.

In the end, to me, it's all... make believe, anyway. That's the hugely frustrating and maddening part. You're a gay Muslim and you struggle and fight for your identity in your religion, and only a small minority of the religious accept you. For a religion that, if only read in the absolutely most ideal light, does not condemn you sexuality, just your actions pertaining your sexuality.

You can argue till you're blue in the face, and I'm blue in the face about the right interpretation of Islam - but does it matter? Will God make a post and correct us? In the end all that matters is what we take from the book, what impression it leaves on the earth. Not what we think, that if the stars align, it could mean.

Why fight so hard for that? I guess you have to believe in the Islamic faith. Although sometimes, the line between being a believer and letting go of the religion is superficial - a feeling of obligation or guilt. Or sometimes fear.

Life is just so much easier when that oppressive and senseless obligation is lifted off your shoulders. At least it was for me.

Ok this is exactly what I was talking about. Ex-muslims telling me to leave Islam because "it's oppressive and senseless" is offensive to me. I don't want to leave and I don't have to leave.

I could right entire essay about how Islam compels me to activism, to fight for human rights, and how it makes me a better person but I don't want to have to defend myself constantly. It's so tiring having people pull at me from every direction. Like all we want is to be able to live without being made to feel like pieces of shit.

Like thank you for your concern but I don't find Islam the problem. Muslims are the problem. American homophobia and misogyny are the problem. The western gaze that otherizes queer people of color is the problem. This isn't just a simplified one issue thing to me.

 

[wachie]

You telling me what and where I can post. That is definition of either bullying or playing a mod. I didn't just giggle . It was a point at how to the dot people follow the religious scripture. Funny the person I was talking to understand the point I was making and replied back to make his own point. That is how discussions work. Also that was the first post you made in this thread, nothing with the topic but an attack on me,

Again, where the fuck did I say I was bothered by what's being discussed in Ramadan thread?

He is just reminding you that if you want to discuss something post in the appropriate topic rather than whatever thread you feel like, that would be derailing (which you were) and is against the rules we all have to follow.

 

[beast786]

Lmao this thread is exactly why I am so uncomfortable discussing things that pertain to my identity. We have Ex-Muslims telling us that our characterization of Islam is wrong and it's not up to interpretation... umm ok

"It is God who has sent down to you the book: In it are verses clear (muhkamat), they are the foundation of the book, others are unspecific (mutashabihat)."[6] (Quran 3:7)

God literally tells us that not everything is literal in the Qur'an!!! I need people to stop accusing us of not knowing our religion, it's highly condescending. Not to mention the Qur'an is 3% rules. The rest is vague. On purpose.

And then we have straight Muslims telling queer Muslims how to live our lives. Stop suggesting celibacy or whatever. Like... how we live seriously doesn't concern you we can figure it out ourselves.

And then there are straight people saying anal sex is necessary component of being gay??? Have you heard of lesbians? Stop sexualizing us lol. Not to be a bitch but this conversation should be about ME (lgbt muslims) and people like me. Our perspective should be the most important because this discussion is about our fucking lives, we aren't some theory that you can implant your views on.

It be nice if you posted the whole verse

"Sahih International: It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

And why as ex Muslim my opinion matters? Because these were exact issue that made me question Islam and on my journey to ex Muslim . Just like they are many gay ex Muslim . So yes, these voices has value also .

No one is telling anyone here how to interpret or take it literally or literally and believing it's direct word of God . I am not arguing literalism . Because even literalism can have multiple interpretation . I was arguing as the book as literal word of God . Two very different concepts

 

[beast786]

He is just reminding you that if you want to discuss something post in the appropriate topic rather than whatever thread you feel like, that would be derailing (which you were) and is against the rules we all have to follow.

Why would I post in Ramadan thread? Did you even bother reading the post as how it was used as an analogy? How the hell i derail when it's used in analogy. You and him are talking about it because you are trying to back seat mod. Stop

 

[SystemBug]

Whether you an ex-Muslim or not. All I have seen Beast do is post up anti-Muslim articles.

Throughout the years I have been on Gaf that is all he's done pretty much.

Like yo, I get that maybe you had a shit experience due to family or whatever, and distanced yourself from the religion. I'm speaking from being an ex-Muslim as well. But I haven't given up on my culture, and my identity as a brown skinned person who will always been seen as an other in the Western world.

 

[beast786]

You obviously concerned about the discussion in the Ramadan thread about red m&m's, that's why you're lurking and bringing it up here. You dont HAVE to say you're bothered to show your disdain. You're free to post wherever you want, and welcome to post in Ramadan thread if you like. Lurking a thread where you obviously have no intention to post and then shitting it elsewhere in your own thread is not a show of confidence. It seems like your resentment of Islam has overflowed your mind and you cannot sanction any inter-religious discussion within Islamic thought without being flippant. Just...let go, I guess? I mean for an ex-Muslim you should know by now that Food is an absolutely a critical aspect in Islamic life and you must be careful about what your body consumes, whether its dye made from bugs, cross contaminated meat or what have you. It's a huge deal! So let people have their discussions without being called out? I'm sorry that a religion has dietary rules and its adherants are discussing ways to abide by it in a thread that's literally about eating (and not eating) food. I mean what did you expect? Did you want people there to be discussing their favorite ponies? Did you want the thread to be discussing about issues YOU want? What would it take from us to satisfy YOU, so that you dont call us out from our Ramadan thread? If people talking about food in a food related thread triggers you then stop going there, or be confident enough to post and discuss with them. I dont have anything to add to this thread, thats why I dont post here. Or do you want me to engage in a discussion on your terms again?

Stop stop stop I don't give a shit what you eat . What the hell are you going on and on . I don't give a shit about your eating / dietary habits. Please get that through your head.

I made an analogy to make a point of how many adhere to scripture. It belong in this thread. I will lurk if I want , I will post if I want so stop being a fucking mod.

Tell me something , you lurk in this thread and start derailing with being upset because I reference something in that thread . Only post you made in thread is to derail it. Absolutely nothing with topic but playing a victim card and bullying people.

 

[beast786]

Whether you an ex-Muslim or not. All I have seen Beast do is post up anti-Muslim articles.

Throughout the years I have been on Gaf that is all he's done pretty much.

Like yo, I get that maybe you had a shit experience due to family or whatever, and distanced yourself from the religion. I'm speaking from being an ex-Muslim as well. But I haven't given up on my culture, and my identity as a brown skinned person who will always been seen as an other in the Western world.

I am certain part anti Islam . Calling me anti Muslim is accusing me of bigotry.

 

[SystemBug]

I am certain part anti Islam . Calling me anti Muslim is accusing me of bigotry.

Everything I have seen you post shows Muslims in a negative light.

I have never seen you post anything that shows a Muslim or Muslims do anything positive.

 

[beast786]

Everything I have seen you post shows Muslims in a negative light.

I have never seen you post anything that shows a Muslim or Muslims do anything positive.

You don't even have to go far. In this exact thread I agree with poster who is progressive Muslim and support his views. That is a shit of a way to ad hominem attack someone . Tell me where I have been bigoted. I love my family ( obviously Muslim). Even with them I love discussing ideology and Islam . You can be critical of ideology and not be a bigot .

 

[wachie]

Why would I post in Ramadan thread? Did you even bother reading the post as how it was used as an analogy? How the hell i derail when it's used in analogy. You and him are talking about it because you are trying to back seat mod. Stop

If you have an issue or opinion about the dye concerning M&Ms then feel free to discuss it where it's being discussed. Mocking the discussion here is merely making you look childish, throwing bullying accusations makes it worse. I've tried to make you understand but if you still feel you're right then please do continue.

edit - After reading your post above (#172), I think I'm wasting my energy. Sorry.

 

[KmA]

It be nice if you posted the whole verse

"Sahih International: It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

And why as ex Muslim my opinion matters? Because these were exact issue that made me question Islam and on my journey to ex Muslim . Just like they are many gay ex Muslim . So yes, these voices has value also .

No one is telling anyone here how to interpret or take it literally or literally and believing it's direct word of God . I am not arguing literalism . Because even literalism can have multiple interpretation . I was arguing as the book as literal word of God . Two very different concepts

I'm not saying as an ex-Muslim you shouldn't discuss issues with Islam. But this topic is centered around being gay and Muslim. There have been numerous people in this thread that have basically insinuated that if you are gay and Muslim than just leave Islam. That isn't a solution for most of us. We're already a minority in a minority it's hard enough getting anybody to listen to us without inserting their opinions about us.

 

[beast786]

If you have an issue or opinion about the dye concerning M&Ms then feel free to discuss it where it's being discussed. Mocking the discussion here is merely making you look childish, throwing bullying accusations makes it worse. I've tried to make you understand but if you still feel you're right then please do continue.

Again. Why would I post it there . I don't care if they do or don't. Again, did you even know why I posted it here? Did I say it was right or wrong?

It was used as an analogy of how to the dot people follow scripture.

 

[beast786]

I'm not saying as an ex-Muslim you shouldn't discuss issues with Islam. But this topic is centered around being gay and Muslim. There have been numerous people in this thread that have basically insinuated that if you are gay and Muslim than just leave Islam. That isn't a solution for most of us. We're already a minority in a minority it's hard enough getting anybody to listen to us without inserting their opinions about us.

And I am pretty sure I didn't say or posted anything contradicting what you just said

 

[SystemBug]

You don't even have to go far. In this exact thread I agree with poster who is progressive Muslim and support his views. That is a shit of a way to ad hominem attack someone . Tell me where I have been bigoted. I love my family ( obviously Muslim). Even with them I love discussing ideology and Islam . You can be critical of ideology and not be a bigot .

There's a way to do it and not do it.

Everytime some religious nut does a terrorist attack you are always on the go ready with your anti-Islam articles.

What the hell does that exactly accomplish?

I know gay Muslims and they come to me when they need support. Heck I'm part of the LGBT community myself.

If your not either or. What makes you think you can speak for us?

 

[Next]

There have been numerous people in this thread that have basically insinuated that if you are gay and Muslim than just leave Islam.

So I guess it's safe to say Islam is a bigoted and anti-gay ideology?

 

[KmA]

So I guess it's safe to say Islam is a bigoted and anti-gay ideology?

It can be. It can also be pretty inclusive. People project their own prejudices on religion all the time.

 

[beast786]

There's a way to do it and not do it.

Everytime some religious nut does a terrorist attack you are always on the go ready with your anti-Islam articles.

What the hell does that exactly accomplish?

I know gay Muslims and they come to me when they need support. Heck I'm part of the LGBT community myself.

If your not either or. What makes you think you can speak for us?

So you have to be lbgt or gay lbgt to speak in this subject . Are you for real ?

I do surgical mission trips all around the world ever year in Muslim country. I care for human beings and there absolute rights. I not just post here about it , that is why I care. I have family members who are gay that ran away and never been seen. That is why I care

 

[afternoon delight]

People project their own prejudices on religion all the time.

Certain religions sure go out of their way to broadcast and program prejudice into their followers, which is what this thread is discussing.

 

[Next]

It can be. It can also be pretty inclusive. People project their own prejudices on religion all the time.

So Islam supports gay people, but muslims project their prejudice onto Islam?

 

[Replicant]

Well, I'm LGBT and this is what I'll say:

If you are INCAPABLE of criticising your own religion and recognising its flaws, how do you hope that you'd be able to achieve understanding with the outside world who already see your religion as something that is incompatible with their values?

As long as you're insisting that it's your religion's way or the highway then people will respond similarly in reverse. You have to be able to look at your own religion and recognises that some parts of it are flawed, outdated, and incompatible with basic human compassion. If you are angry at someone calling your religion as such then there can be no discussion to be had. Discussion can't take place while anger already occupies your heart and mind.

At the end of the day, you're only proving to the world that there's an irreconcilable differences between your religion and the rest of the world's values. This is precisely why more and more people are balking at trying to level with islam as a religion. You want to be understood but you refuse to let go some of the more unacceptable parts of the religion that others balk at.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Why would you want to continue in a religion that actively denigrates your entire existence? Just the fact that a religion stands around telling me I'm bad is enough for me to shun it. I mean that towards all religions, not just Islam.

A book is not going to tell me who I am and who I am not. A religion is not going to dictate to me who I am and who I am not. I am a living, breathing human who will fight tooth and nail to make sure I'm recognized. I literally have the ability to stand up and say who I am - I refuse to allow a 3,000 year old book to dictate how I live my life. How someone can continue to believe in a book and/or faith that tells them they're evil is beyond me. I will never understand it.



Part of the love you speak of includes sex.

Some people are asexual, so that's not a given.

 

[SystemBug]

Well, I'm LGBT and this is what I'll say:

If you are INCAPABLE of criticising your own religion and recognising its flaws, how do you hope that you'd be able to achieve understanding with the outside world who already see your religion as something that is incompatible with their values?

As long as you're insisting that it's your religion's way or the highway then people will respond similarly in reverse. You have to be able to look at your own religion and recognises that some parts of it are flawed, outdated, and incompatible with basic human compassion. If you are angry at someone calling your religion as such then there can be no discussion to be had. Discussion can't take place while anger already occupies your heart and mind.

At the end of the day, you're only proving to the world that there's an irreconcilable differences between your religion and the rest of the world's values. This is precisely why more and more people are balking at trying to level with islam as a religion. You want to be understood but you refuse to let go some of the more unacceptable parts of the religion that others balk at.

A lot of people are trying to create a more inclusive Islam and criticize the way the current prejudices are held. A lot of it starts with the young people today and how they can influence their families to be more accepting.

But that's not to say it all happens. A lot of the times it also happens to do with geographical location. My cousins in Pakistan are more chilled out. My cousins in Texas are more conservative.

 

[Kinitari]

Ok this is exactly what I was talking about. Ex-muslims telling me to leave Islam because "it's oppressive and senseless" is offensive to me. I don't want to leave and I don't have to leave.

I could right entire essay about how Islam compels me to activism, to fight for human rights, and how it makes me a better person but I don't want to have to defend myself constantly. It's so tiring having people pull at me from every direction. Like all we want is to be able to live without being made to feel like pieces of shit.

Like thank you for your concern but I don't find Islam the problem. Muslims are the problem. American homophobia and misogyny are the problem. The western gaze that otherizes queer people of color is the problem. This isn't just a simplified one issue thing to me.

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm talking about how wonderful it was for me to leave, and how I want to support people who are teetering on the fence of leaving, or who "believe" because of obligation. If you truly believe, then there's nothing I can really do, except challenge you on that belief (which I always do, for basically any topic).

Why, can I ask, does my position that leaving Islam is great, offend you? Even if I told you, specifically, that you should leave the religion, why would that offend you? I'm not going to force you to do anything, and I promise I won't look down on you, regardless of what your decision is, but what is it about me suggesting this as an option that seems to upset you so much? I ask because I'm sincerely curious.

 

[KmA]

Well, I'm LGBT and this is what I'll say:

If you are INCAPABLE of criticising your own religion and recognising its flaws, how do you hope that you'd be able to achieve understanding with the outside world who already see your religion as something that is incompatible with their values?

As long as you're insisting that it's your religion's way or the highway then people will respond similarly in reverse. You have to be able to look at your own religion and recognises that some parts of it are flawed, outdated, and incompatible with basic human compassion. If you are angry at someone calling your religion as such then there can be no discussion to be had. Discussion can't take place while anger already occupies your heart and mind.

At the end of the day, you're only proving to the world that there's an irreconcilable differences between your religion and the rest of the world's values. This is precisely why more and more people are balking at trying to level with islam as a religion. You want to be understood but you refuse to let go some of the more unacceptable parts of the religion that others balk at.

Agreed

So Islam supports gay people, but muslims project their prejudice onto Islam?

If you take the most literal interpretation of the Qur'an (which i don't agree with), then anal sex is prohibited between men. There is nothing that references lesbianism. *Gay* as an identity isn't really discussed because that's a pretty recent thing.

But even if you take the most literal interpretation, Islam isn't against being gay. You can't be *against* a natural state of being. We don't control our attractions and even it acknowledges that in one verse. (Qur'an 24;31) It basically talks about who women are allowed to reveal their beauty to and one of the groups is "men without desire/vigor" which could refer to asexual or gay men.

Plus Islam is very pro social justice and activism. There are tons of verses that says to stand up for the rights of the oppressed. That you should protect the defenseless and all that. Pretty sure LGBT are pretty oppressed so yea I would say Islam fundamentally supports us. Muslims however... that's a different story.

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm talking about how wonderful it was for me to leave, and how I want to support people who are teetering on the fence of leaving, or who "believe" because of obligation. If you truly believe, then there's nothing I can really do, except challenge you on that belief (which I always do, for basically any topic).

Why, can I ask, does my position that leaving Islam is great, offend you? Even if I told you, specifically, that you should leave the religion, why would that offend you? I'm not going to force you to do anything, and I promise I won't look down on you, regardless of what your decision is, but what is it about me suggesting this as an option that seems to upset you so much? I ask because I'm sincerely curious.

Because I find it condescending that the only way I can live truly and freely is if I leave Islam. It's not just you who has suggested that leaving Islam will make me happier; it's a pretty consistent suggestion I hear when I speak with ex-Muslims. And even if I did want to leave Islam, that's not really easy either considering my family is Muslim.

 

[Erevador]

Plus Islam is very pro social justice and activism. There are tons of verses that says to stand up for the rights of the oppressed.

Well, that's certainly an interesting interpretation of a text that encourages the taking of sex slaves.

 

[ElFly]

I am sure that Islam has many interpretations that are p open to LGBT people, but the fact remains that many self described muslim countries, with legislations based/inspired/guided by Islam, are prosecuting all kinds of LGBT people right now, and that the teachings of many sects, independent of how devout or not are their followers, are pretty oppressive towards them too.

So I don't think it is unreasonable that Ex Muslims are calling for LGBT people to abandon Islam.

 

[ElTorro]

Well, that's certainly an interesting interpretation of a text that encourages the taking of sex slaves.

To say that the doctrine of Islam encourages gay-rights activism has to be up there with Holocaust denial. And denial is likely not the best way towards reform.

 

[Next]

If you take the most literal interpretation of the Qur'an (which i don't agree with), then anal sex is prohibited between men. There is nothing that references lesbianism. *Gay* as an identity isn't really discussed because that's a pretty recent thing.

But even if you take the most literal interpretation, Islam isn't against being gay. You can't be *against* a natural state of being. We don't control our attractions and even it acknowledges that in one verse. (Qur'an 24;31) It basically talks about who women are allowed to reveal their beauty to and one of the groups is "men without desire/vigor" which could refer to asexual or gay men.

You got me at a disadvantage here, since I'm not familiar with Quran. Quick wikipedia about Islam and Homosexuality brings this up (wikipedia can be edited so if it's wrong please correct me):

And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing? Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly."
— Quran, Sura 27 (An-Naml), 54-55

"approach men with desire instead of women" this leaves out lesbianism, but still, If you're a gay man, you're Immoral according to Islam. I don't think this is a case of projection, the anti gay sentiment originates from Islam, not the other way around.

Also,

It basically talks about who women are allowed to reveal their beauty to

So it's anti-gay (men only) and misogynist.

 

[Erevador]

To say that the doctrine of Islam encourages gay-rights activism has to be up there with Holocaust denial. And denial is likely not the best way towards reform.

Calling Islam "very pro social justice" is about as accurate as calling Hinduism the official religion of McDonalds, or declaring the Catholic church the world's finest day care for your kids.

 

[KmA]

You got me at a disadvantage here, since I'm not familiar with Quran. Quick wikipedia about Islam and Homosexuality brings this up (wikipedia can be edited so if it's wrong please correct me):



"approach men with desire instead of women" this leaves out lesbianism, but still, If you're a gay man, you're Immoral according to Islam. I don't think this is a case of projection, the anti gay sentiment originates from Islam, not the other way around.


Also,


So it's anti-gay (men only) and misogynist.

I literally already talked about this in another post

I feel like I've talked about this so much already. Our history shows that this isn't true. Men openly displayed interest in younger men for CENTURIES in predominantly Muslim countries. Al-Amin was a gay caliph who was in love with his male slave. Rumi was thought to be in love with one of his students. Abu-Nawas was the court poet and forefront face of Islamic poetry and he openly discussed sex with men. Mukhannath (translates to effeminate men but are akin to drag performers) were accepted members of the community during the time of the prophet.

This problem with homophobia and Islam is recent. That isn't to say there wasn't any homophobia during those times, but is a far cry from the current state we are in today.

Calling Islam "very pro social justice" is about as accurate as calling Hinduism the official religion of McDonalds, or declaring the Catholic church the world's finest day care for your kids.

You can say whatever you want about Islam, but Islam has made me way more conscious about being socially active and outspoken. The first Muslims were women, slaves, and people from lower tribes. It was a club for oppressed kids. That's how Islam started.

"Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded." 16:90

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted." 4:135

But whatever it doesn't seem you want a discussion.

 

[beast786]

Well, that's certainly an interesting interpretation of a text that encourages the taking of sex slaves.

This is what makes it tricky to discuss Quran as it has both sides.

It allows slavery as booty, homophobic , female right issues , wife violence , cutting hand as punishment etc

On the other hand it talk about loving , fighting against oppression , gods love etc

That is why context obviously is important but also the community needs to realize where that seed of archaic social rules exist in Quran so it can be changed or re interpret as the progressive Muslim in this thread suggested. But, unfortunately I am not that optimistic

 

[Next]

I literally already talked about this in another post

I feel like I've talked about this so much already. Our history shows that this isn't true. Men openly displayed interest in younger men for CENTURIES in predominantly Muslim countries. Al-Amin was a gay caliph who was in love with his male slave. Rumi was thought to be in love with one of his students. Abu-Nawas was the court poet and forefront face of Islamic poetry and he openly discussed sex with men. Mukhannath (translates to effeminate men but are akin to drag performers) were accepted members of the community during the time of the prophet.

This problem with homophobia and Islam is recent. That isn't to say there wasn't any homophobia during those times, but is a far cry from the current state we are in today.

oh come on man "approach men with desire instead of women", what is really being condemned here?

I'm not talking about the progression of homophobia in the muslim community, I'm strickly arguing that homophobia is supported by the scripture, which is core to Islam.

Also you didn't address the part about telling women who they can reveal their beauty to. Don't you think that's misogynist?

 

[beast786]

I literally already talked about this in another post

I feel like I've talked about this so much already. Our history shows that this isn't true. Men openly displayed interest in younger men for CENTURIES in predominantly Muslim countries. Al-Amin was a gay caliph who was in love with his male slave. Rumi was thought to be in love with one of his students. Abu-Nawas was the court poet and forefront face of Islamic poetry and he openly discussed sex with men. Mukhannath (translates to effeminate men but are akin to drag performers) were accepted members of the community during the time of the prophet.

This problem with homophobia and Islam is recent. That isn't to say there wasn't any homophobia during those times, but is a far cry from the current state we are in today.



You can say whatever you want about Islam, but Islam has made me way more conscious about being socially active and outspoken. The first Muslims were women, slaves, and people from lower tribes. It was a club for oppressed kids. That's how Islam started.

"Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded." 16:90

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted." 4:135

But whatever it doesn't seem you want a discussion.

Can I ask you a question ?

Do you agree that Quran is supportive of sex slave, women rights issue including only men can have four wives, legal witness half of men , inheritance law less than man , physically discipline your wife etc?

 

[Sblargh]

I never know how to react to any religious people who go out of their way to find a certain interpretation of these mythical texts that somewhat agree that they shouldn't be as horrible torwards a group of people that religious people are usually horrible torwards.

It becomes a kind of debate about a question that seems, at best, important only to people inside the religion trying to reform it or whatnot. Sure, your fairy tales may be understood as agreeing with my secular morality if you happen to read them in a certain light, but that doesn't resolve the fact that instead of debating morality or trying to construct it through discussion and analysis of society, we are depending on interpretation of fairy tales to not be murdered and hoping that somehow you are one interpreter that doesn't believe I am evil.

I say this mostly based on my experience with christianity, which had its share of civil wars and revolutions in a long, bloody road torwards secularism and christian societies, these days, have a mostly secular morality with religion stuck in a game of reactionarism against social changes and then playing catch up after the changes happen anyway, pretending afterwards that the texts used to justify oppresion actually don't and whatever.

Muslim comunities seem even more stuck than christians on the first part of the equation. Maintenance of some status quo (which translates to fascism in a lot of countries) seems to be the main goal. So this talk of interpretation of fairy tales seem even more banal. At best it is an internal discussion that trickle down to us heathens, but at worst it is misdirection. It is to create a shield against criticism of oppresion within a culture by saying the book those people read and don't interpret in a certain way could some day somehow be interpreted in another way, which I find it hard to care.

I care about how cultures treat people. A lot of christians treat the lgbt people like shit and I do my best to either educate or shame them into a morality less based on bigotry. People that aren't bigots and believe in god are irrelevant to me, as long as you are not doing harm, believe whatever crazy shit you want.

Muslim communities are the same. If they engage in hate speech, I don't really care about what your texts have to say, you should not engage in hate speech, period.