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[KmA]

oh come on man "approach men with desire instead of women", what is really being condemned here?

I'm not talking about the progression of homophobia in the muslim community, I'm strickly arguing that homophobia is supported by the scripture, which is core to Islam.

Also you didn't address the part about telling women who they can reveal their beaty to. Don't you think that's misogynist?

How is body autonomy misogynist? And what I think about women is irrelevant I'm not a woman, that's up to them to interpret.

I don't want to argue about this because all I've done is try to defend myself and say I have a space in Islam. I've had to defend myself from muslims and non-muslims alike who all want to tell me how I interpret the Qur'an is wrong. It's honestly so tiring. I don't really have the patience anymore.

If you really want a detailed understanding of the topic, read Homosexuality and Islam by Scott Kugle.

 

[Erevador]

This is what makes it tricky to discuss Quran as it has both sides.

It allows slavery as booty, homophobic , female right issues , wife violence , cutting hand as punishment etc

On the other hand it talk about loving , fighting against oppression , gods love etc

That is why context obviously is important but also the community needs to realize where that seed of archaic social rules exist in Quran so it can be changed or re interpret as the progressive Muslim in this thread suggested. But, unfortunately I am not that optimistic

Yes, you are correct. Islam, like all religions, can be interpreted, of course. And there certainly are passages that have a more altruistic and compassionate bent.

The problem comes, and it seems you agree, with the belief that the text is ideal, unassailable, the finished and perfect word of God. This is a problem because there are passages are extremely clear and literal in their positive attitudes towards slavery and violence.

Perhaps some kind of extraordinary mental gymnastics will allow people to redefine those passages in a way that allows them to re-contextualize their content, it is certainly true that similarly creative distortions have been part of the historical moderation of much of the horrific content in the Christian tradition.

But, like you, I am not hopeful. An increased emphasis on secular values of human rights and an understanding of religion as relevant more to the personal than the political sphere remains my only real hope for a reduction in the kind of violence and hatred we are concerned about here.

 

[KmA]

Can I ask you a question ?

Do you agree that Quran is supportive of sex slave, women rights issue including only men can have four wives, legal witness half of men , inheritance law less than man , physically discipline your wife etc?

My frame of reference is very different from what I've seen in this thread. From my understanding, Islam has been a boys club for centuries that didn't encourage female or non-arab/non-south asian interpretations of the text. It's muddled through self interest and arab culture permeates throughout. The Qur'an (and the Hadith collection but I generally ignore those) has been systematically interpreted through patriarchy and misogyny for a long time. It's why the pronouns for Allah are "He" when God is understood to be genderless yet no one bats an eyelash at that for some reason?

Also this is the translation I use:
http://www.studyquran.org/resources/Quran_Reformist_Translation.pdf

It's hard for me to imagine a god that refers to Themself as The Most Compassionate and The Most Just advocating for things that are clearly barbaric.

If I didn't think Islam was compatible with my values I wouldn't stay in it.

 

[Next]

How is body autonomy misogynist? And what I think about women is irrelevant I'm not a woman, that's up to them to interpret.

I don't want to argue about this because all I've done is try to defend myself and say I have a space in Islam. I've had to defend myself from muslims and non-muslims alike who all want to tell me how I interpret the Qur'an is wrong. It's honestly so tiring. I don't really have the patience anymore.

If you really want a detailed understanding of the topic, read Homosexuality and Islam by Scott Kugle.

Isn't controlling who they reveal their beauty to the opposite of autonomy?

I didn't mean to attack you though. Although I can't put myself in your shoes, I understand it must be difficult to deal with.

 

[beast786]

My frame of reference is very different from what I've seen in this thread. From my understanding, Islam has been a boys club for centuries that didn't encourage female or non-arab/non-south asian interpretations of the text. It's muddled through self interest and arab culture permeates throughout. The Qur'an (and the Hadith collection but I generally ignore those) has been systematically interpreted through patriarchy and misogyny for a long time. It's why the pronouns for Allah are "He" when God is understood to be genderless yet no one bats an eyelash at that for some reason?

Also this is the translation I use:
http://www.studyquran.org/resources/Quran_Reformist_Translation.pdf

It's hard for me to imagine a god that refers to Themself as The Most Compassionate and The Most Just advocating for things that are clearly barbaric.

If I didn't think Islam was compatible with my values I wouldn't stay in it.

Thanks for sharing your reasoning. I was wondering how you dealt with those issues .

 

[beast786]

Yes, you are correct. Islam, like all religions, can be interpreted, of course. And there certainly are passages that have a more altruistic and compassionate bent.

The problem comes, and it seems you agree, with the belief that the text is ideal, unassailable, the finished and perfect word of God. This is a problem because there are passages are extremely clear and literal in their positive attitudes towards slavery and violence.

Perhaps some kind of extraordinary mental gymnastics will allow people to redefine those passages in a way that allows them to re-contextualize their content, it is certainly true that similarly creative distortions have been part of the historical moderation of much of the horrific content in the Christian tradition.

But, like you, I am not hopeful. An increased emphasis on secular values of human rights and an understanding of religion as relevant more to the personal than the political sphere remains my only real hope for a reduction in the kind of violence and hatred we are concerned about here.

Pretty much agree

 

[Sword]

If you really want a detailed understanding of the topic, read Homosexuality and Islam by Scott Kugle.

I think I found my next book, Thank You

 

[beast786]

Here is a interview by manji who is a lesbian Muslim regarding Orlando shooting

https://youtu.be/GRgLFN5QY1U

 

[Mumei]

If you really want a detailed understanding of the topic, read Homosexuality and Islam by Scott Kugle.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have not started it yet, but I picked up this up from the library on Monday:

Living Out Islam documents the rarely-heard voices of Muslims who live in secular democratic countries and who are gay, lesbian, and transgender. It weaves original interviews with Muslim activists into a compelling composite picture which showcases the importance of the solidarity of support groups in the effort to change social relationships and achieve justice. This nascent movement is not about being “out” as opposed to being “in the closet.” Rather, as the voices of these activists demonstrate, it is about finding ways to live out Islam with dignity and integrity, reconciling their sexuality and gender with their faith and reclaiming Islam as their own.

It sounds really interesting, and I'm looking forward to it.

I have read this book:

And I would definitely recommend it to anyone who is interested in reading about the intellectual background of Islamic reform movements (starting in the 19th century), about contemporary Islamic thinkers concerned with (as it says on the tin) freedom, democracy, and women's rights. It also has a lot of interesting stuff about the application of Western philosophy to Qur'anic interpretation, with interesting results. It has less applicability to the narrow question of Gay Muslim identity, but I thought I'd point it out since the topic seems to be broader than that right now.