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[PhoenixDark]

I wonder how many people will have seen the show and then gone on to read the books. Ned's death was obviously met with a large degree of anger, but are the majority passionate enough about the show to rage about a characters death not going to have read about the Red Wedding by the time it finally airs?

I guess it also depends how they handle Robs character development. In the books we obviously saw little of him directly, but to me that made him a more interesting character. He reached almost mythical status simply because he was constantly spoke of with respect by other characters. If this aura is lost because the viewer is able to witness his flaws first hand it might damage the emotional impact the scene offers.

I disagree, expanding his role will make his death even worse for many people. As with the books I think a lot of people will be hoping Robb avenges his father and frees the north. Showing his impressive battle command skills, as well as expanding his fateful love affair, will make him more of a tragic figure.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I disagree, expanding his role will make his death even worse for many people. As with the books I think a lot of people will be hoping Robb avenges his father and frees the north. Showing his impressive battle command skills, as well as expanding his fateful love affair, will make him more of a tragic figure.

Yeah, I think Robb needs to be shown more in the show than he was in the books. The Red Wedding will have much more impact.

 

[bluemax]

The Red Wedding was a lot less shocking than Ned's death. Its so heavily foreshadowed and obvious that Robb is gonna die in that book.

 

[Steelyuhas]

The Red Wedding was a lot less shocking than Ned's death. Its so heavily foreshadowed and obvious that Robb is gonna die in that book.

Less shocking but much more painful for the audience I would say.

 

[bluemax]

Less shocking but much more painful for the audience I would say.

I guess I'm just different because it wasn't that impactful for me. Robb is such a minor character and he was obviously going to die after he told his mother "I'm not dead yet mother" or whatever.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

The Red Wedding was a lot less shocking than Ned's death. Its so heavily foreshadowed and obvious that Robb is gonna die in that book.

It is heavily foreshadowed... but I think Martin masterfully wrote it in a way where the audience reading it gets into a complete shroud of denial until it actually happens. I think why it remains so effective is that so much crap happens to the Starks, that despite the rug being pulled out from under you multiple times in the previous books (Ned, Winterfell razed, and basically every Stark thinking every other Stark is dead) you see Robb amassing his armies, Arya heading to the Twins to meet her brother and mother, and a compromise made with the Frey's with the next step to take the battle to King's Landing and you can't help but fall into thinking that this could be traditional narrative where there's a happy reunion, and the Starks are redeemed. The Red Wedding literally is a complete severance of Robb's arc as a hero, which despite being in Martin's world for some 2000 pages by that point, you can't help rooting for. It's like if Luke and Leia were brutally betrayed and murdered in ROTJ during the planning of the attack of Endor.

This being said, Martin was VERY VERY careful to make sure that the audience always had some degree of distance from Robb. He was never a POV, nor did we have a POV that was directly with him during most of his exploits in ACOK, and only heard about him from hearsay that the POV characters heard.

I mentioned before a long time ago that I was curious though how the show would address this. It looks like they expanded his role, so I wonder how this will change the impact of the Red Wedding. With an expanded role, he'll no longer be a distanced character but right up front and center, perhaps even becoming the defacto "protagonist" that the audience wants to win. I do agree with PhoenixDark that this'll make the event even more tragic in the show.

I also just have to say that I still think it's the height of stupidity to end a season (like S3:Ep 10) DIRECTLY on the Red Wedding, mainly for the reasons above. With Ned, it was different; he tried, he failed, he died, end of character. He really had nowhere else to go. As I was saying above with Robb, it's a totally different story where an expanded role will mean his hero arc is disrupted, and as huge of a troll that it would be, I can see basically a lot of the TV only audience saying "fuck this show" and MEAN IT this time, and not watch it when it comes back 8 months later since they've already written it off. I think you need to give the audience some levity.

I say, S3: Ep 9: the red wedding (title of the episode "The Rains of Castamere", calling it now. ) and S3: Ep 10 ends with Joffrey's death, but leave it at that. S4 could open with Sansa escaping, etc and move some of the BIG Wall stuff to S4, plus the resolution of the rest of ASOS (which there is a lot, Red Viper, Tyrion escaping, finish up with Brienne/Jamie, Arya/Hound/Tickler stuff) and maybe start addressing some of the AFFC/ADWD stuff at that point, and I think it'll fill out nicely.

So anyways getting back to the original point, I think that Robb's death IS telegraphed early on... but that still doesn't take away the impact.

 

[tmdorsey]

^^^ Agreed that the season can't end with the Red Wedding. Just remembering how I felt after reading that I think it would throw alot of tv viewers off if they are left with 2 more Starks getting brutally killed. Joeffery and Tywin's deaths help alleviate some of the blow of Robb getting killed so I think you have to give the tv show viewers one if not both of those deaths before you go on a 6 month or year break or whatever.

 

[Maffis]

season 3 definitely has to end with zombie cat. i think that particular snippet will give a lot of angry people (over robb's horrible death) some "justice", and it will definitely also make people want to come back.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Yeah I can imagine a lot of TV viewers being straight up turned off when that happens, so the season definitely can't end at that point.

 

[jett]

season 3 definitely has to end with zombie cat. i think that particular snippet will give a lot of angry people (over robb's horrible death) some "justice", and it will definitely also make people want to come back.

If I could have a "change" in the TV series it'd be to keep Catelyn dead. Zombie Cat is idiotic.

 

[Wray]

season 3 definitely has to end with zombie cat. i think that particular snippet will give a lot of angry people (over robb's horrible death) some "justice", and it will definitely also make people want to come back.

I cant see that happening at the end of S3. Timewise it would be too problematic. Plus it would play very nicely to end S4 that way just like the books.

Plus if they film S3 and 4 at the same time, it wouldnt cause any issues with the actress playing Cat, where she would be off the show for an entire season.

Yeah I can imagine a lot of TV viewers being straight up turned off when that happens, so the season definitely can't end at that point.

They can easily do the Red Wedding in Ep9 and then kill off Joffrey in Ep10. Then just spend most of the Kings Landing plot in S4 dealing with the aftermath, culminating in the Red Viper/Mountain duel and Tyrion killing Tywin. They'd probably have to fill in alot episodes with new show only scenes, but with the amount of interesting characters in Kings Landing around that time, it would hardly be difficult to do. You'll have Tyrion, Cersei, Tywin, Jaime, Varys, Margaery, and the Red Viper all playing off each other all season long.

You could also move back the Red Viper's intro into S4 and have that happen after Joffrey is dead. If I remember correctly, that wouldn't really mess things up at all.

 

[Steelyuhas]

It is heavily foreshadowed... but I think Martin masterfully wrote it in a way where the audience reading it gets into a complete shroud of denial until it actually happens. I think why it remains so effective is that so much crap happens to the Starks, that despite the rug being pulled out from under you multiple times in the previous books (Ned, Winterfell razed, and basically every Stark thinking every other Stark is dead) you see Robb amassing his armies, Arya heading to the Twins to meet her brother and mother, and a compromise made with the Frey's with the next step to take the battle to King's Landing and you can't help but fall into thinking that this could be traditional narrative where there's a happy reunion, and the Starks are redeemed. The Red Wedding literally is a complete severance of Robb's arc as a hero, which despite being in Martin's world for some 2000 pages by that point, you can't help rooting for. It's like if Luke and Leia were brutally betrayed and murdered in ROTJ during the planning of the attack of Endor.

This being said, Martin was VERY VERY careful to make sure that the audience always had some degree of distance from Robb. He was never a POV, nor did we have a POV that was directly with him during most of his exploits in ACOK, and only heard about him from hearsay that the POV characters heard.

I mentioned before a long time ago that I was curious though how the show would address this. It looks like they expanded his role, so I wonder how this will change the impact of the Red Wedding. With an expanded role, he'll no longer be a distanced character but right up front and center, perhaps even becoming the defacto "protagonist" that the audience wants to win. I do agree with PhoenixDark that this'll make the event even more tragic in the show.

I also just have to say that I still think it's the height of stupidity to end a season (like S3:Ep 10) DIRECTLY on the Red Wedding, mainly for the reasons above. With Ned, it was different; he tried, he failed, he died, end of character. He really had nowhere else to go. As I was saying above with Robb, it's a totally different story where an expanded role will mean his hero arc is disrupted, and as huge of a troll that it would be, I can see basically a lot of the TV only audience saying "fuck this show" and MEAN IT this time, and not watch it when it comes back 8 months later since they've already written it off. I think you need to give the audience some levity.

I say, S3: Ep 9: the red wedding (title of the episode "The Rains of Castamere", calling it now. ) and S3: Ep 10 ends with Joffrey's death, but leave it at that. S4 could open with Sansa escaping, etc and move some of the BIG Wall stuff to S4, plus the resolution of the rest of ASOS (which there is a lot, Red Viper, Tyrion escaping, finish up with Brienne/Jamie, Arya/Hound/Tickler stuff) and maybe start addressing some of the AFFC/ADWD stuff at that point, and I think it'll fill out nicely.

So anyways getting back to the original point, I think that Robb's death IS telegraphed early on... but that still doesn't take away the impact.

Agreed on the Robb stuff, but I still think the best thing is for the red wedding to be in season 4. All of the events of the last third of ASOS are such a rolling conclusion of so many of the character arch's and plotlines built in the first three novels that I feel they need to all be in the 4th season. There is plenty of material for season 3 without getting to the red wedding (and Joffrey's wedding), especially if in fact Theon losing Winterfell gets pushed to season 3.

 

[Puddles]

Maybe they could end the series with Robb taking Kings Landing and marrying Dany? Just forget about the source material completely.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Agreed on the Robb stuff, but I still think the best thing is for the red wedding to be in season 4. All of the events of the last third of ASOS are such a rolling conclusion of so many of the character arch's and plotlines built in the first three novels that I feel they need to all be in the 4th season. There is plenty of material for season 3 without getting to the red wedding (and Joffrey's wedding), especially if in fact Theon losing Winterfell gets pushed to season 3.

Yeah, if they choose to do it that way, I have no dispute with it. Though from the interviews and what they said at SDCC, Weiss and Benioff are just itching to get to the Red Wedding and have even hinted that S3 would end at it, even with a split.

If they let cooler heads prevail and the RW is in Season 4, I'm okay with that.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know where the UK ASOS book split happen?

 

[Steelyuhas]

Yeah, if they choose to do it that way, I have no dispute with it. Though from the interviews and what they said at SDCC, Weiss and Benioff are just itching to get to the Red Wedding and have even hinted that S3 would end at it, even with a split.

If they let cooler heads prevail and the RW is in Season 4, I'm okay with that.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know where the UK ASOS book split happen?

Pretty much right down the middle. 81 total chapters, and 41 in the first book, which is the chapter when Jon escapes the wildlings.

The Red Wedding is chapter 51.

 

[ZeroRay]

My main concern is how they're gonna shoot all the action coming up.

The Blackwater is probably going to set the tone on what they do when it comes to major battles as the series goes on. Hopefully GRRM, the director, and the rest of the staff stepped up for that episode.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Pretty much right down the middle. 81 total chapters, and 41 in the first book, which is the chapter when Jon escapes the wildlings.

The Red Wedding is chapter 51.

Hmmm...

You know, I really don't know WHY HBO and Benioff and Weiss would feel the need to call it Season 3 and 4... HBO shows in the past have had extra long seasons that have had a hiatus in the middle. The last season of Sopranos had 12 for S6, and 9 for S6.5, and Entourage S3 had like 12 episodes and I think 8 or 9 for Season 3.5.

I think 10+8 episodes would be more then enough. Just call the whole thing S3.

 

[Basileus777]

Hmmm...

You know, I really don't know WHY HBO and Benioff and Weiss would feel the need to call it Season 3 and 4... HBO shows in the past have had extra long seasons that have had a hiatus in the middle. The last season of Sopranos had 12 for S6, and 9 for S6.5, and Entourage S3 had like 12 episodes and I think 8 or 9 for Season 3.5.

The seasons would still probably be airing a year apart, you listed the special exceptions, not how HBO normally schedules their shows.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I like the idea of ep9 having the Red Wedding, followed by Joffery's Purple Wedding for ep10, at least in terms of anticipating viewer reactions. I can't imagine audiences being thrilled with such a devastating blow without some emotional pay back ASAP.

 

[Basileus777]

I like the idea of ep9 having the Red Wedding, followed by Joffery's Purple Wedding for ep10, at least in terms of anticipating viewer reactions. I can't imagine audiences being thrilled with such a devastating blow without some emotional pay back ASAP.

I don't even think that would be possible without rushing everything. And having two episodes like that back to back would make for some really awful pacing. If you want both both things to happen in the same season you'd need to move the Red Wedding up to an earlier episode than 9.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I like the idea of ep9 having the Red Wedding, followed by Joffery's Purple Wedding for ep10, at least in terms of anticipating viewer reactions. I can't imagine audiences being thrilled with such a devastating blow without some emotional pay back ASAP.

If they do Red Wedding in season 3 then I think you have to do Joffery's wedding to end that season. You can't end the season with the red wedding. You just can't.

Something I just thought of for season 2. Seeing as the Tully's are not being introduced this year, I wonder how they are going to handle Robb going West in order to draw Tywin's forces and then they don't come because the Tully's block Tywin and then they return south when they hear word of Stannis' attack on the capital.

I don't even think that would be possible without rushing everything. And having two episodes like that back to back would make for some really awful pacing. If you want both both things to happen in the same season you'd need to move the Red Wedding up to an earlier episode than 9.

Or have both in season 4, which would make the most sense on all fronts in my opinion.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

The seasons would still probably be airing a year apart, you listed the special exceptions, not how HBO normally schedules their shows.

... uh yeah I know. That still doesn't get to my question of as to why they just can't call the continuation of the entirety of ASOS as Season 3.5 and just have it as one self-contained story that ASOS is, which is definitely way more cohesive to the first half then say season 6.5 of The Sopranos.

 

[Apath]

If they kill off Joffrey and Robb in season three, won't everyone get a feeling of "Okay.. what now?"

 

[Basileus777]

... uh yeah I know. That still doesn't get to my question of as to why they just can't call the continuation of the entirety of ASOS as Season 3.5 and just have it as one self-contained story that ASOS is, which is definitely way more cohesive to the first half then say season 6.5 of The Sopranos.

Game of Thrones isn't the Sopranos or a 30 minute comedy, I don't see why they'd give the show special treatment if they already have a full schedule for the year. Whether or not the show is self-contained or not isn't really their concern, HBO doesn't make these kind of decisions based on something like that. And most of their dramas are serials anyway.

 

[Pkaz01]

If they kill off Joffrey and Robb in season three, won't everyone get a feeling of "Okay.. what now?"

No because everyone favorite character will be on trial and still has to kill his father. And there is still Dany's story, and Jon Snow's, and Arya's and even Sansa's could be interesting. The shows most popular actors are probably tyrion and dany.

I think they should do what they did for season one, second to last episode season depressing and then happy times in the finale when joffrey dies and they arrest tyrion for a cliffhanger.

Similar to ned dying in episode 9 and then dany and robb catching jamie, dany getting dragons in the finale.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Game of Thrones isn't the Sopranos or a 30 minute comedy, I don't see why they'd give the show special treatment if they already have a full schedule for the year. Whether or not the show is self-contained or not isn't really their concern, HBO doesn't make these kind of decisions based on something like that. And most of their dramas are serials anyway.

I'm not quite sure why you're arguing like it'd be a huge overhaul of their entire schedule or something. It really wouldn't be... S6.5 of The Sopranos started a year later and was more or less S7 anyways. And HBO isn't nearly as detached from the show or the fanbase as you're making them out to be. The fact that a second season was greenlit with so-so ratings of the pilot shows that they're in this for the long-haul. You're making it out like it's "John From Cincinnati" part 2.

Look, I don't think it's necessarily going to happen, but I also don't think it'd be a big deal not to just call the second half a continuation of S3 especially if Benioff and Weiss are going for the back to back season renewal. And honestly, we're basically just arguing semantics now.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

I get the feeling that Benioff and Weiss just really want to get to the Red Wedding and the temptation to effectively troll the audience and end a season there is precisely what they want to do.

Its a natural cliffhanger, not unlike the end of the first season of 24. Its a textbook "Oh Shit." moment. The problem is even if they leave the RW to the second to last episode of season 3, just following that up with killing Joffrey might just come too quick.

I remember reading it and I was super pissed and wanting Joffrey to die or some Lannister to die after the RW, but Joffrey doesn't die for a while after the RW. It was dragged on long enough to make me think "Damn, the Lannisters might actually away with this." So when Joff and Tywin finally die, its pretty satisfying.

So just ending with the RW might be a good point, as it'll certainly get people talking. I had it spoiled before I read the book and was still shocked when I read it. Its just terrible to read, being from Catelyn's point of view I think really made it brutal.

 

[vanty]

I get the feeling that Benioff and Weiss just really want to get to the Red Wedding and the temptation to effectively troll the audience and end a season there is precisely what they want to do.

Its a natural cliffhanger, not unlike the end of the first season of 24. Its a textbook "Oh Shit." moment. The problem is even if they leave the RW to the second to last episode of season 3, just following that up with killing Joffrey might just come too quick.

I remember reading it and I was super pissed and wanting Joffrey to die or some Lannister to die after the RW, but Joffrey doesn't die for a while after the RW. It was dragged on long enough to make me think "Damn, the Lannisters might actually away with this." So when Joff and Tywin finally die, its pretty satisfying.

So just ending with the RW might be a good point, as it'll certainly get people talking. I had it spoiled before I read the book and was still shocked when I read it. Its just terrible to read, being from Catelyn's point of view I think really made it brutal.

Isn't Joff's death pretty obvious because of the thing Stannis did about wishing for the three false kings to die, and then Theon's father (forgot his name) and Robb had died accordingly.

 

[JerkShep]

Thematically, they could just build S03 as the Starks fall, especially if they move the burning of Winterfell in S03 as some rumors seems to suggest. Winterfell has fallen, Sansa has to marry Tyrion, Arya's destiny is unclear, Robb and Catelyn are dead, everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. Oh, and Jon loses Ygritte amd the Wall is being attacked by Mance's men.
S04 could give back hope to the audience, especially if they uses material from AFFC: Sansa away from King's Landing and starting to learn the Game, Arya and her training, Bran's journey, Lord Commander Jon, UnCat and her revenge. And Joffrey and Tywin's death, of course.

I'm against using the Red Wedding in 9 and Purple in 10. I feel the fuckin' cliffhangers that Martin loves so much (is X character alive or dead?) should be put to good use and make the audience suffer lol. It's not like they have to wait SIX YEARS to see how it continues. More like 6 months.

For S05 and S06 (AFFC and ADWD) I can only pray for D&D, the two books are almost impossible to convert in TV format.

 

[chiQ]

Thematically, they could just build S03 as the Starks fall, especially if they move the burning of Winterfell in S03 as some rumors seems to suggest. Winterfell has fallen, Sansa has to marry Tyrion, Arya's destiny is unclear, Robb and Catelyn are dead, everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. Oh, and Jon loses Ygritte amd the Wall is being attacked by Mance's men.

Everyone watching would go into a deep depression and top themselves.

 

[gutshot]

Holy crap. So I'm reading synopses of the A Clash of Kings chapters, to get a sense of what we can expect to see in season 2 of Game of Thrones, and I read this:

That morning, Jon dreams of five direwolves, when there should have been six. Seeing through the eyes of Ghost, he finds himself in a forest and senses a voice calling his name from a nearby weirwood, one that resembled his brother except it had three eyes. His brother explains to him how to open his eyes, and the tree reaches down and touches him, and he finds himself back in the mountains. He is atop a cliff, and oversees thousands of men training for combat, and he also sees mammoths with giants riding them. Suddenly, an eagle soars out of the sky coming straight for him. Jon awakens shouting Ghost’s name.

At this point in the timeline, Bran is actually in Winterfell, but it is obvious that in Jon's wolf-dream he is communicating back through time from his weirwood cave beyond the Wall. Mind blown. I now have to re-read all the books and see if there are other instances of Bran affecting the story via his weirwood warging.

 

[sharbhund]

Holy crap. So I'm reading synopses of the A Clash of Kings chapters, to get a sense of what we can expect to see in season 2 of Game of Thrones, and I read this:



At this point in the timeline, Bran is actually in Winterfell, but it is obvious that in Jon's wolf-dream he is communicating back through time from his weirwood cave beyond the Wall. Mind blown. I now have to re-read all the books and see if there are other instances of Bran affecting the story via his weirwood warging.

Wouldn't there only be four direwolves left when Bran reached the weirwood cave?

 

[Kwhit10]

Wouldn't there only be four direwolves left when Bran reached the weirwood cave?

Bran is warging the weirwoods and looking in the past. So what he sees is events in the past when there were five direwolves.

 

[ultron87]

Is it weird that with all the potential character reunions still forthcoming I really just want to see Arya find Nymeria and her giant pack of wolves?

 

[gutshot]

Wouldn't there only be four direwolves left when Bran reached the weirwood cave?

The five direwolves mentioned in the wolf-dream is what Ghost senses at that moment. But Bran is traveling back in time, into Jon's wolf-dream, to temporarily open Jon's third eye, so he can see Mance's host.

 

[tmdorsey]

I have to admit the stuff with Bran warging in the trees and jumping from the past and to the present was confusing to me.

 

[gutshot]

I have to admit the stuff with Bran warging in the trees and jumping from the past and to the present was confusing to me.

Which part is confusing to you? How it works? Or the significance of the events that Bran witnesses via his weirwood warging in ADWD?

 

[tmdorsey]

Which part is confusing to you? How it works? Or the significance of the events that Bran witnesses via his weirwood warging in ADWD?

I guess more the significance of the events he's witnessing, and also weather or not he's going to the past or somewhere in the present. Does he have control on where and when he can warg, etc.

 

[gutshot]

I guess more the significance of the events he's witnessing, and also weather or not he's going to the past or somewhere in the present. Does he have control on where and when he can warg, etc.

Well the significance of most of the events that Bran witnesses in ADWD are up for interpretation. Some of them seem to just be things that occurred a very long time ago by the Winterfell hearttree. Whether they relate to the present story at all, or are just George's way of showing that Bran can travel very far back into the past, is up for debate.

Anyway, at the point we last see Bran in his training from the three-eyed crow, he is only just beginning to learn how to warg into the trees and so the things he sees seem to jump through time without his control. However, I think it is safe to assume that as he continues to warg he will have more control over his time-travel abilities. He seems to be fully aware of what is going on in Jon's wolf-dream and even has the ability to communicate with Ghost and somehow teleport him into the mountains, so I'm guessing this is a Bran that has been weirwood warging for many, many years.

 

[tmdorsey]

Well the significance of most of the events that Bran witnesses in ADWD are up for interpretation. Some of them seem to just be things that occurred a very long time ago by the Winterfell hearttree. Whether they relate to the present story at all, or are just George's way of showing that Bran can travel very far back into the past, is up for debate.

Anyway, at the point we last see Bran in his training from the three-eyed crow, he is only just beginning to learn how to warg into the trees and so the things he sees seem to jump through time without his control. However, I think it is safe to assume that as he continues to warg he will have more control over his time-travel abilities. He seems to be fully aware of what is going on in Jon's wolf-dream and even has the ability to communicate with Ghost and somehow teleport him into the mountains, so I'm guessing this is a Bran that has been weirwood warging for many, many years.

That's another thing. Jon's "wolf-dream" was actually Jon warging into Ghost right? Cause it didn't make sense to me for Bran to have the ability to warg directly into an actual dream of Jon's.

 

[gutshot]

That's another thing. Jon's "wolf-dream" was actually Jon warging into Ghost right? Cause it didn't make sense to me for Bran to have the ability to warg directly into an actual dream of Jon's.

Yeah, a "wolf-dream" is warging into your wolf in your sleep and seeing actual events unfold through their eyes. It's basically the lowest level of warging as it occurs when the warg is asleep and thus has no control over his warging. I'm guessing all the Stark kids have had, or still have, "wolf-dreams" (with the possible exception of Sansa). However, Bran is the only one to have "opened his third eye" and actually begun to consciously and deliberately warg into other creatures.

Wow, this discussion got really nerdy. Haha!

 

[PhoenixDark]

On one hand that's beyond awesome, on the other hand I'm like fffuu time travel

You hated Lost's ending George, don't screw this up lol

 

[gutshot]

As long as he doesn't start having Bran go back and change events that already happened, I think it's fine. Having Bran travel through time to affect the way the story develops (3 books before we actually learn that he can time travel) is cool. Having Bran go back, in a future book, to change the previously-established storyline is not.

 

[tmdorsey]

^^^ Agreed.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

The Red Wedding was a lot less shocking than Ned's death. Its so heavily foreshadowed and obvious that Robb is gonna die in that book.

This is one example of Martin's brilliance in his handling of Robb's character. There is a turning point in Swords where I knew Robb's destined for failure. My love for House Stark and the North's cause was far too important to me as a reader to lose hope. I desperately clung on to this hope even though with each passing line, and chapter in Catelyn's POV, the sense of dread became overwhelming up to Robb and the North's demise. His downfall became more imminent as the book progressed through the eyes of Catelyn and hearsay. All of his seemingly minor mistakes, or at least appearing minor, shaded the severity of his decisions, but amounted to the Red Wedding nevertheless. That sense of dread is a consequence of Martin's writing style leading up to the death of the Young Wolf. I felt it yet refused to accept his tragic fate. My refusal to ignore the blatant foreshadowing to the Red Wedding is what made the betrayal so impactful and devastating. My honest belief is Martin took Robb's character in the proper direction by leaving the reader guessing, feeling and refusing Robb's fate. With the show, however, I believe the right course of action is to connect the audience to Robb by showing his conquests and successes on screen to build up the audiences love for him and the North. He rarely makes any mistakes in late GoT, and most of Clash. The audience will rally behind this young boy defeating battle tested veterans like Jamie and Tywin Lannister as if he is a prodigy of Ned. In season 3 they can humanize him by showing the audience his inexperience in politics, leadership and lack of instincts. Handling his character in this manner will ease into the Red Wedding in a similar way Martin eased into the RW in the books. Hopefully the show is subtle enough to keep the audience clinging on to hope as I did in Storm.

 

[Steelyuhas]

This is one example of Martin's brilliance in his handling of Robb's character. There is a turning point in Swords where I knew Robb's destined for failure. My love for House Stark and the North's cause was far too important to me as a reader to lose hope. I desperately clung on to this hope even though with each passing line, and chapter in Catelyn's POV, the sense of dread became overwhelming up to Robb and the North's demise. His downfall became more imminent as the book progressed through the eyes of Catelyn and hearsay. All of his seemingly minor mistakes, or at least appearing minor, shaded the severity of his decisions, but amounted to the Red Wedding nevertheless. That sense of dread is a consequence of Martin's writing style leading up to the death of the Young Wolf. I felt it yet refused to accept his tragic fate. My refusal to ignore the blatant foreshadowing to the Red Wedding is what made the betrayal so impactful and devastating. My honest belief is Martin took Robb's character in the proper direction by leaving the reader guessing, feeling and refusing Robb's fate. With the show, however, I believe the right course of action is to connect the audience to Robb by showing his conquests and successes on screen to build up the audiences love for him and the North. He rarely makes any mistakes in late GoT, and most of Clash. The audience will rally behind this young boy defeating battle tested veterans like Jamie and Tywin Lannister as if he is a prodigy of Ned. With the new season they can humanize him by showing the audience his inexperience in politics, leadership and lack of instincts. Handling his character in this manner will ease into the Red Wedding in a similar way Martin eased into the RW in the books. Hopefully the show is subtle enough to keep the audience clinging on to hope as I did in Storm.

Agreed completely

 

[tmdorsey]

This is one example of Martin's brilliance in his handling of Robb's character. There is a turning point in Swords where I knew Robb's destined for failure. My love for House Stark and the North's cause was far too important to me as a reader to lose hope. I desperately clung on to this hope even though with each passing line, and chapter in Catelyn's POV, the sense of dread became overwhelming up to Robb and the North's demise. His downfall became more imminent as the book progressed through the eyes of Catelyn and hearsay. All of his seemingly minor mistakes, or at least appearing minor, shaded the severity of his decisions, but amounted to the Red Wedding nevertheless. That sense of dread is a consequence of Martin's writing style leading up to the death of the Young Wolf. I felt it yet refused to accept his tragic fate. My refusal to ignore the blatant foreshadowing to the Red Wedding is what made the betrayal so impactful and devastating. My honest belief is Martin took Robb's character in the proper direction by leaving the reader guessing, feeling and refusing Robb's fate. With the show, however, I believe the right course of action is to connect the audience to Robb by showing his conquests and successes on screen to build up the audiences love for him and the North. He rarely makes any mistakes in late GoT, and most of Clash. The audience will rally behind this young boy defeating battle tested veterans like Jamie and Tywin Lannister as if he is a prodigy of Ned. In season 3 they can humanize him by showing the audience his inexperience in politics, leadership and lack of instincts. Handling his character in this manner will ease into the Red Wedding in a similar way Martin eased into the RW in the books. Hopefully the show is subtle enough to keep the audience clinging on to hope as I did in Storm.

Exactly. It was like I knew things were going to end badly for Robb, but I held out some hope (more likely wanted to believe) he would get out of it. The ritual Stannis performed and then Balon dying not too long after that pretty much sealed the deal on Robb, but again I just wanted to see something good happen for the Starks and the North.

I'm getting pissed all over again. Fucking Boltons and Freys need to pay. I hope Lady Stoneheart gets every last one of them. Tywin was a scheming son of a bitch too.

 

[Reuenthal]

Just found this thread. I have only three words to say. The North remembers!

 

[Pollux]

For S05 and S06 (AFFC and ADWD) I can only pray for D&D, the two books are almost impossible to convert in TV format.

They're perfect for late night on Cinemax when Dany is fucking her high school QB

 

[Dresden]

Stoneheart is a bitch, I hope Jaime plants a fucking stake in her chest.

And yes, the Jaime cliffhanger drove me fucking nuts. Goddamn it George.